Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

[d0nut]

I wasn't involved in the Manaphy tests so I can't really say anything about how it plays. I guess I'll put it back on suspect.

I'll double check with the other mods but I'm sure we can get a vote up. We can either vote now, or dump the suspects into OU and ban things people complain about (Just like Smogon!).

I was very active on the suspect tests so I can vouch that it will be quite powerful. If TG were still +2 I would think it would be an easy OU this gen but +3 TG is pretty game changing, as is Politoed getting Drizzle for defensive sets. Skymin might also be broken but since very few people have had the opportunity to use it I say we at least give it a shot in the beginning to see if we can get any different opinions. Mew, Deo-S + N, Manaphy, and Wob should be the only suspects for now.

[GolemGuy]

Politoed and Ninetales are irrelevant for the time being, as they don't exist yet. For that same reason, so are Speed Boost Blaziken, Shadow Tag Shanderra, I-forgot-the-name-but-it-reverses-the-benifits-and-downsides-of-stat-changing-moves Smuglord, and all of those guys,

[d0nut]

Politoed and Ninetales are irrelevant for the time being, as they don't exist yet. For that same reason, so are Speed Boost Blaziken, Shadow Tag Shanderra, I-forgot-the-name-but-it-reverses-the-benifits-and-downsides-of-stat-changing-moves Smuglord, and all of those guys,

No point in bringing any of them up for the time being. Not just cause they haven't been released, but because they haven't been tested much and really none of them are as broken as they seem. Remember...people thought Rampardos, Rhyperior, and Cresselia should all be Uber at the release of DP so we shouldn't go around swinging the ban hammer blindly. Shanderaa is actually more manageable than people make it out to be. Smuglord/Jaroda has an awful movepool which leaves it walled by several things. We should wait until we can test things more throughly on a simulator before we ban anything that isn't completely obvious.

[ParaChomp]

Maybe we should just wait for Smogon because everyone plays by their rules.

[d0nut]

Maybe we should just wait for Smogon because everyone plays by their rules.

The whole point of us doing this is not everyone wants to wait on Smogon to create a balanced metagame. They are going to be starting with everything unbanned no matter how obviously broken it is (see Kyogre, Mewtwo, Arceus, etc.) Most people will play by Smogon's rules, but this is an alternative for those who are too impatient for them to finish testing things. This isn't a permanent tier list as stated in the OP, its only until they do ban what they need to. Considering they haven't even started testing yet due to lack of a 5th gen simulator, it could be a while (6 months to a year I would think,) before Smogon presents us with a stable tier system.

[Sweep Freak]

Yeah, sure. We can play by the rules that aren't developed for at least 6 months. M'kay.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Yeah, sure. We can play by the rules that aren't developed for at least 6 months. M'kay.

To be honest, it looks like Smogon are going to have an initial banlist anyway, because they realize casual Pokemon players aren't ready, and patient enough, to do proper tiering yet.

However, I do think this is a good idea, to, in the event of Smogon deciding to have no initial banlist, have your own substitute in the meantime for those who are living in the past, and still want to (try to) play DPP OU. Obviously, it'd just be embarrassing when this list would turn out very different from Smogon's list, which would actually have mountains of evidence and discussion behind each ban.

But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm getting the gist that Smogon are going to have an initial banlist, so you might not need to worry after all. In the Policy Review, there's quite a lively discussion about what will be on the banlist, and a lot of the admins, mods and badge holders there are talking like it's already certain to happen.

[Blue Harvest]

To be honest, it looks like Smogon are going to have an initial banlist anyway, because they realize casual Pokemon players aren't ready, and patient enough, to do proper tiering yet.

However, I do think this is a good idea, to, in the event of Smogon deciding to have no initial banlist, have your own substitute in the meantime for those who are living in the past, and still want to (try to) play DPP OU. Obviously, it'd just be embarrassing when this list would turn out very different from Smogon's list, which would actually have mountains of evidence and discussion behind each ban.

But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm getting the gist that Smogon are going to have an initial banlist, so you might not need to worry after all. In the Policy Review, there's quite a lively discussion about what will be on the banlist, and a lot of the admins, mods and badge holders there are talking like it's already certain to happen.

If they do have an initial banlist I'll probably call this list obsolete (maybe we can take a vote, if people still care I'll keep it active I guess).

Still even on the PR its sort of going both ways. The "public" poll is still in favor of no ban list and even in PR some people are making an argument proposing that if the public supports a "no ban" it should be. I sort of agree, though it might be because the poll was so stupidly worded.

I have to go now, but I'll check on Smogon's PR more often and try to keep this thing more up to date.

[jellsprout]

But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm getting the gist that Smogon are going to have an initial banlist, so you might not need to worry after all. In the Policy Review, there's quite a lively discussion about what will be on the banlist, and a lot of the admins, mods and badge holders there are talking like it's already certain to happen.

No, they're still pretty much 50/50 on the subject. Only now the "Initial Banlist" side is trying to put together such a banlist. This is because they suspect most commoners are voting "No Bans" on the public poll because they have no idea what an initial banlist will look like.
Even on the "Initial Banlist" side there is a pretty large rift between the users. There are those who want a D/P/P Ubers+"obvious" 5th gen Ubers banlist and those who only want a minimal banlist.

[Blue Harvest]

If it matters, Pokemon Online is much better than Shoddy 1 and 2. PO already has a basic ban list so even if Smogon decides to start with no bans a significant portion of 5th gen simulator battles will still have one.

[calze6]

I think that all forms of deoxys bar defense should be banned as I can't really imagine how a broken lead that sets up so many hazards can be beaten with OU like stuff. The attack form, imo is just too powerful and can do to much damage.

With mew, its awesome support movepool is too great and under dual screens makes it just like how annoying it is in ubers. Also, donut, mew is used much more often as a SR lead in ubers, not a BP user.

However, with wobba, I really struggle to find why I wouldn't use shanderaa now so I think that it deserves to be retested. Also, you need to think about wynaut.

I'm also not convinced about darkrai as its stats are still quite low and we should test more of that before we are sure that it is uber.

[YOOMTAH]

Meloetta in Uber made me cry, although it's only reason [i]might[/b] be that it's not obtainable yet.
Mew not in Uber made me yay.

[mattj]

I'm also not convinced about darkrai as its stats are still quite low and we should test more of that before we are sure that it is uber.

Okay, okay, delete this if it's off topic. I realize we're talking about singles here, so this does not apply, but Darkrai is the single most feared mon in doubles. Dark Void is unbelievably broken. 80% accuracy for BOTH your mons PLUS Bad Dreams is a terrible idea. I would assume it would be simmilar in singles though. The ability to easily put one mon (two in doubles) to sleep and munch away at it's HP without doing ANYTHING AT ALL is quite honestly broken. Its speed, SAtk, Moveset, and Ability combined are just... terrible... >_?

[BaldWombat]

I think that all forms of deoxys bar defense should be banned as I can't really imagine how a broken lead that sets up so many hazards can be beaten with OU like stuff. The attack form, imo is just too powerful and can do to much damage.

With mew, its awesome support movepool is too great and under dual screens makes it just like how annoying it is in ubers. Also, donut, mew is used much more often as a SR lead in ubers, not a BP user.

However, with wobba, I really struggle to find why I wouldn't use shanderaa now so I think that it deserves to be retested. Also, you need to think about wynaut.

I'm also not convinced about darkrai as its stats are still quite low and we should test more of that before we are sure that it is uber.

The lead metagame has changed considerably with teams being shown before the start of each battle and then selecting your lead. Also Magic Coat now reflects all entry hazards in addition to status, among other things, so the days of blindly spamming entry hazards are over.

Meloetta in Uber made me cry, although it's only reason [i]might[/b] be that it's not obtainable yet.
Mew not in Uber made me yay.

All pokemon that are not obtainable are banned to start out with and when they are released we will retier them.

Okay, okay, delete this if it's off topic. I realize we're talking about singles here, so this does not apply, but Darkrai is the single most feared mon in doubles. Dark Void is unbelievably broken. 80% accuracy for BOTH your mons PLUS Bad Dreams is a terrible idea. I would assume it would be simmilar in singles though. The ability to easily put one mon (two in doubles) to sleep and munch away at it's HP without doing ANYTHING AT ALL is quite honestly broken. Its speed, SAtk, Moveset, and Ability combined are just... terrible... >_?

We are talking about singles, but Dark Void is banned in doubles as if it puts both pokemon to sleep, its user breaks sleep clause and automatically loses the match.

[~-Overheat-~]

I dont think Shanderaa is any way Uber. Its a bit fragile(considering the huge offensive stats of certain pokemon), and can get destroyed by priority moves, like maybe a Sucker Punch. And it doesnt have Shadow Tag yet. I dont know much about the competitive metagame, but i keep tabs on it, and i plan to start Shoddy so dont attack me if i'm wrong!

But Ononokusu is, well, a bit shaky. 147 base attack is huge and 97 speed is deadly, and he might go on the route of Garchomp later on. Sazando is pretty comfortable at OU though imo.

[BaldWombat]

As of this point, Dream World Abilities are banned on any pokemon that has not been confirmed to of been released in the Dream World. Feel free to discuss them to your hearts content but they should not be factored into tiering or used at this time. We will make sure to keep track of what is available and what isn't as we move forward in the metagame.

[Blue Harvest]

I'll update the OP tonight, unless some other mod wants to do it. I should be back around 11.

[mattj]

We are talking about singles, but Dark Void is banned in doubles as if it puts both pokemon to sleep, its user breaks sleep clause and automatically loses the match.

It's banned in doubles? Like... OU Doubles? It's legal in VGC Doubles (09 and 10 via smeargle). They don't have a sleep clause. Just Dark Void by itself isn't all that terrible (Fake Out/Taunt/2HKO/etc). Spore is actually a little more tricky because of it's 100% accuracy. But pair Dark Void with Bad Dreams and... good GOD!

[Blue Harvest]

Even in Ubers Darkrai has no trouble killing half a team. I used Sub Darkrai almost exclusively and even for teams with a Blissey it was hard to take out.

Now with the new sleep mechanic I say good luck to anyone getting a Dark Voided Pokemon awake again.

[jellsprout]

There were no Smogon 4th Gen Doubles rules. Because Shoddy didn't support Doubles, there was no controlled environment to test them in, so Smogon never got a chance to create an "official" banlist or ruleset.