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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #901
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    Blaziken is the first suspect for the Dream World meta. I feel it deserves a ban; it is so ridiculously powerful and if you bring it your check to it (Slowking, Jellicent, Dragonite etc.) it can just Baton Pass +1/+2 to another sweeper, and you're facing a Garchomp that basically has a scarf, and a DD boost and can switch moves. Not to mention Chandelure screws over Jellicent and Slowbro, so you can't reliably check it. Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Using UU/RU Pokemon in ways that doesn't actually take advantage of some REAL niche in OU is like letting a horse poop on your chest; then when people ask why you let it do that you defend yourself by saying "well now I have all this horse poop", ignoring everyone who tries to reason with you that this isn't really a good thing either.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Best. Analogy. Ever.

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by girazard View Post
    Blaziken is the first suspect for the Dream World meta. I feel it deserves a ban; it is so ridiculously powerful and if you bring it your check to it (Slowking, Jellicent, Dragonite etc.) it can just Baton Pass +1/+2 to another sweeper, and you're facing a Garchomp that basically has a scarf, and a DD boost and can switch moves. Not to mention Chandelure screws over Jellicent and Slowbro, so you can't reliably check it. Thoughts?
    I don't know DW OU...

    I think infernape is UU worthy. I never see him anymore! Some might say that he's too good, but isn't this about usage?



  3. #903
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    Nope, Infernape is still in 7% of teams.
    Member of Crystalline



    Start of turn 1


    Rotom-W used Trick!
    Rotom-W switched items with the foe's Shedinja!
    Rotom-W obtained one Toxic Orb!
    The foe's Shedinja obtained one Choice Scarf!

    The foe's Shedinja used Trick!
    The foe's Shedinja switched items with Rotom-W!
    The foe's Shedinja obtained one Toxic Orb!
    Rotom-W obtained one Choice Scarf!

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Dog View Post
    Nope, Infernape is still in 7% of teams.
    2 questions

    How do you learn this?
    And
    How low does it need to be?



  5. #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooloolcool View Post
    I don't know DW OU...

    I think infernape is UU. I never see him anymore! Some might say that he's too good, but isn't this about usage?
    Depends on what you're talking about, but either way, infernape is in PO's DW OU tier and in OU (non dream world) on both smogon and PO.

    (PO has DW tiers, while smogon doesn't. PO does have DW UU, but according to their list, it's OU.)

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooloolcool View Post
    2 questions

    How do you learn this?
    And
    How low does it need to be?
    They have usage statistics thread on smogon, at it has to drop below 3% to go down a tier.
    Member of Crystalline



    Start of turn 1


    Rotom-W used Trick!
    Rotom-W switched items with the foe's Shedinja!
    Rotom-W obtained one Toxic Orb!
    The foe's Shedinja obtained one Choice Scarf!

    The foe's Shedinja used Trick!
    The foe's Shedinja switched items with Rotom-W!
    The foe's Shedinja obtained one Toxic Orb!
    Rotom-W obtained one Choice Scarf!

  7. #907
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    I missed a word there. I meant UU Worthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Dog View Post
    They have usage statistics thread on smogon, at it has to drop below 3% to go down a tier.
    Oh. Thanks for helping me learn something, Ninja!



  8. #908

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    I think Blaziken is too much for Dream World OU, and it's not just because of its incredible sweeping power, which was the final straw during its testing in OU. The biggest problem is that in Dream World, Speed Boost and Baton Pass become legal together on Blaziken, which pretty much turns Blaziken into a super Ninjask on steroids. Not only can it bust your team to pieces, with its number of reliable checks and counters dropping dramatically in the Sun, but now it can pass on speed and Atk boosts and let Terrakion, Dragonite, Garchomp, or whoever sweep your team. Baton Pass also means that if a check comes in, Blaziken can just escape and let the carnage continue with whatever else you have on hand.

    Definitely unhealthy for the metagame.

  9. #909
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    Agreed. As a standalone sweeper, Blaziken is manageable. Baton Pass gives it a whole other dimension; making it both a REALLY powerful sweeper and essentially a SmashPasser at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Using UU/RU Pokemon in ways that doesn't actually take advantage of some REAL niche in OU is like letting a horse poop on your chest; then when people ask why you let it do that you defend yourself by saying "well now I have all this horse poop", ignoring everyone who tries to reason with you that this isn't really a good thing either.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Best. Analogy. Ever.

  10. #910
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    I'm 2 days late on this...and for some reason I've been the official guy to announce tiering changes and bans. Speaking of which, we have a new ban to think about coming from...the NU tier?

    That's right, the Borderline 3 tier has thus been created with the banning of jynx from NU. I'm not that avid of an NU player so I won't comment on this based on experience, though from the descriptions...they've made a nice choice (armarillo's 2nd paragraph on jynx is the one i find most convincing). You can pull the race card all you want, but it seems that jynx just had very good coverage moves in focus blast, ice beam, and psyshock, in addition to base 95 speed (one of the tier's fastest) and lovely kiss. That move, according to one senator, was pretty much a kill this gen due to sleep mechanics whenever it hits, which is sadly 75% of the time. Also up for voting last stage was heat rock and wet rock, both of which remained unbanned by a vote of 1 for and 6 against.

    In other tiering news around smogon, the UU senate is apparently heavily divided in the sand debate. Most say it's not broken, and they are probably right because kokoloko, the dumb*** who led a smear campaign on PO that successfully banned kingdra from wifi UU, says it is is broken. Now, I don't ladder period when it comes to UU (my ego tells me I know enough about the tier already, thus saying that I don't need to ladder), but yes it's broken since 2 pokemon that have more than 1% usage in the tier have access to the ability (gligar and cacturne...ya, I know, cacturne). JK, it's not. I really don't have much of an opinion on sand veil tbh. In the 2 serebii premiership 2 matches I've done, hax has been on my side and my opponents missed once apiece due to sand veil. However, looking over the logs, the misses didn't matter: Even if my opponents had hit their moves, the outcome still would have been the same. I've had 4 for fun matches since then, and though I can't remember any misses caused by sand veil at the moment, I'm highly sure they didn't matter. I say much about it outside of these logs, I can only say that with sand veil, a 100% accurate move is still going to hit 83.3% of the time (in mixed number form...83 1/3%...still more than the accuracy of both stone edge and focus blast when targeting a poke who lacks any boost in evasion)...unless the odds are extremely against you, you're gonna hit most of your moves. (I used a formula I found on bulbapedia to get this percentage.)

    Lastly, RU briefly considered banning omastar last month but quickly decided not to do so.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

    5/10

    Yes, I'm doing this like a journal because I can't legally double post. Whatever. I'm assuming anyone has yet to see this in the 4 days since I originally posted this...

    Anyways, about a day after I originally posted this, UU is discussing how something else is broken that isn't sand: roserade. It's not the spikes set, it's more the offensive set...here's the link to the discussion since I don't feel like explaining at quarter after 2 in the morning...http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464567&page=7 . SJCrew at post #160 begins the whole discussion. I'm in the midst of running calcs to see how much offensive roserade can do atm just to see if I can be convinced of it being as broken as they say.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

    5/15

    ...Yeah, roserade's broken. Only 5 pokes can switch in and live long enough to kill it turn 2 (scarfed chandy, victini, snorlax, registeel, dusclops) if something is already sleep and like 10 pokes beat it 1 v 1 as long as something else is asleep. If something else isn't asleep, 2 pokes (resttalk lax and clops) are sure fire counters...I hope I'm correct there.

    Also, 15 days late on this announcement, but drillbur, murkrow, and mienfoo were announced as LC suspects after gligar was banned. So far, there's no support for banning any of these.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

    5/21

    2 minor days late. LC council voted on the above suspects over the weekend and I'll post the results as soon as they're posted even if there isn't a change. Again, there was little support for banning any of the suspects over the 3 weeks of discussion...then again, since suspects were announced, there have been 24 posts in the current stage's thread.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

    5/22

    UU suspecting sand soon, seeing as it got 4/7 senators agreeing to suspect it.

  11. #911
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    I'm not sure how well rose will do in the Ou environment, suicide leads have fallen out of usage (I'm calling it a suicide lead because of its defenses, it's kinda frail) and their are plant of frail sweepers already.

    Edit; once I think about it, it does resist a few common priority types. It resists vacuum wave/Mach punch, bullet punch, and aqua jet if I'm not mistaken. That could be fairly useful for it


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  12. #912
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    I'm 90% sure Steel hits Poison for neutral damage.
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  13. #913
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    Omg people posted that isn't me editing my post :O

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonicwari View Post
    I'm not sure how well rose will do in the Ou environment, suicide leads have fallen out of usage (I'm calling it a suicide lead because of its defenses, it's kinda frail) and there are plenty of frail sweepers already.

    Edit; once I think about it, it does resist a few common priority types. It resists vacuum wave/Mach punch, bullet punch, and aqua jet if I'm not mistaken. That could be fairly useful for it
    It's only frail physically and has nice special bulk...though grass isn't the best defensive type either. However, 60/55/105 defenses, according to calcs I've been running, will allow rose to live most physical priority attacks without any investment in either hp or defense. However...say roserade does get banned (opinion changed, will explain later)...rose will have no outstanding niche: outclassed as a grass/poison type sweeper (venasaur and chlorophyll...not to mention access to sleep powder), outclassed as a spiker (everyone's favorite ferrothorn and skarmory, and to an extent is ferrothorn since it also gets t spikes...not a huge outclassing though), and outclassed as a toxic spiker (tentacruel with its better defenses). The best it can do is really what smeargle can do with spikes only better: put something to sleep and then stack spikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by AquaRegisteel View Post
    I'm 90% sure Steel hits Poison for neutral damage.
    Yah, it does.

    Anyways, curse you big beluga (aka fatty) for making me think differently for roserade. I considered it broken based on nothing being able to switch into it safely, when in truth I should have also considered the number of things in UU that, if they can be switched in safely, will destroy roserade before it can even get off a sleep powder or even do much damage, aka all of the fire types in UU. (He provided a simple argument of "it's not broken." Yes, idk how i was that easy to break.)

    As an update to my 5/21 edit...LC, as predicted, did not ban any of its suspects. As for my 5/22 edit, good luck to the aforementioned big beluga as he tries to make a run at smogon's open UU senate spot!

  14. #914
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    My bad, I haven't used poison types that much and I knew steel didn't hit water or fire types (I have little experience with grass) so I assumed that it hit grass types for 1/2 damage.

    Either way, my argument or your's, it really deoesn't have that large of a niche. With it's speed and sp atk it could pull of choice sets, but lots of other pokemon do that, and in my opinion they have better stabs a majority of the time (poison is next to useless) and it's movepool doesn't leave it am amazing array of usable options either.


    ^You ever have that moment you realize you forgot to give credit? Sorry Irra!!^

  15. #915

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    As someone who has used Roserade extensively in OU, I can say that it is actually pretty good. It make a great check to random Rain threats and drops a bomb on the standard ScizorWash VoltTurn core. Heck, other VoltTurn members are hesistant to switch in for fear of Sleep Powder or an attack coming off of Roserade's awesome base 125 SpA. It also switches into random Scalds and takes burns with Natural Cure, or even Rest in combination with it. As far as Toxic Spikes goes, neither Tentacruel nor Forretress have the offensive prowess, a sleep move, or the ability to laugh off random status. Similar case for competing Spikes users. I've used it on my Sun stall team, and it has plenty of useful coverage between Giga Drain and a Sun boosted Weather Ball, and it lasts surprisingly long just with the combination of Rest and Natural Cure.

  16. #916
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    Tier changes next month!

    Smogon's predictions:
    Abomasnow up to OU from BL
    Chansey down to UU from OU (I've been told this was banned from UU but apparently not)
    Porygon-Z up to UU from BL2 (too powerful not to be UU)
    Nidoqueen down to RU from UU (bulkiest t spiker in UU I think)
    Quagsire up to RU from NU (such an underrated poke, finally moving up)
    Magmortar up to RU from NU (haven't we heard this before?)
    Cryogonal up to RU from NU (bye bye prominent NU spinner)

    According to antar, PU is becoming popular on wifi. Either way, here's the predictions for NU <-> PU shifts:

    Up from PU to NU:
    Electrode
    Kangaskhan
    Electabuzz
    Ampharos
    Ursaring
    Linoone
    Regice
    Rampardos
    Zebstrika
    Gigalith
    Audino


    Down from NU to PU:
    Marowak
    Camerupt
    Luxray
    Bastiodon
    Duosion

    Anyways, tiering news is in a lull. UU has yet to announce their new council member and DW is barely getting started on progressing after picking their council. NU won't shut up about how balanced their tier is, RU won't talk, and LC realized that suspecting those 3 pokes was a waste of time.

  17. #917
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    If Chansey's going back to UU, it better be banned soon.

    But on a different note, it would add the flair back into defensive teams in UU. After Deo-D left UU, the Spike-Stacking eased a bit, letting defensive teams, previously not as viable, take better ground. If Chansey comes back, stall's definitely going to have a better boon. I can already see a potent Roserade + Slowbro + Chansey core. Chansey pretty much replaces Snorlax in some cases on stall, as it provides more consistent damage, crippling status, and Eviolite abuse.

    To be completely honest, Nidoqueen's potential drop isn't all that unexpected. It really can't compete with Roserade and the quickly rising Qwilfish.
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  18. #918
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    You might find less players down there if Chansey goes down, I reckon. It could happen, but I won't.

    I find that Porygon-Z seems to be a nice addition in UU, and enjoys firing off those nasty Specs Tri-Attacks...
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  19. #919
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    UU is extremely active now that the new senators have been chosen and named. Kokoloko now leads the UU senate and is looking to fail horribly so far.

    Thie issue of sand is on the chopping block for the community...still. The UU community mostly agrees on banning sand veil...which is still dumb imo. The new senate leader heavily disagrees with this.

    I say that he is gonna fail so far because of his views on sand. He wants to ban it because it frankly looks like he's trying to turn Smogon's UU tier into PO's but won't admit it, instead hiding behind possibly one of the best reasons ever: because a sandless metagame, like PO's, IS MORE FUN. He's used this argument twice now in the np thread and has been called out for it a couple times, the first indirectly, the latter directly. He has continuously tried to force a debate on whether or not sand is competitively fun and has failed to get it going.

    By the way, if you're looking to read the debate so far, it began here at post #236.

    Still saying sand won't get banned. I honestly feel it's competitively fun, idk why. Sand veil is not that huge of an issue, it's more just ppl complaining about hax. Whatever :/

  20. #920
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    Quick question: is Virizion OU or UU? On PO it's UU, so I was kind of confused.


    This signature has been brought to you by Mochi10, thanks a bunch c:

  21. #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soperman View Post
    Quick question: is Virizion OU or UU? On PO it's UU, so I was kind of confused.
    It's OU. http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/virizion



  22. #922
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    Holy crap, first post in a week and a half on this thread!

    UU was supposed to vote on Sand and sand veil LAST weekend but there hasn't been any results as of yet. They're mostly frightened by the odds of chansey dropping down to UU as of now. I'll edit as soon as I see results.

    Otherwise, there has been no news from ANY other tier. We'll have to wait until next month to see what changes are going to occur and how each respective tier reacts to it. But yah, news lul ftw.

  23. #923
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    I find uu's fear of Chaney a little to great. They have plenty of ways to deal with it already


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  24. #924
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    UU bans sand. Way to go retards.

  25. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    UU bans sand. Way to go retards.
    Oh, c'mon. Is Sand Veil really that bad? In I remember correctly, only Gligar, Stoutland, maybe Rhyperior, Hippopotas(for its viability in the first place) really benefit from Sand at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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