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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #1001
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    still got another question though. what would even be the niche of soundproof abomasnow? flygon counter?

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedarklord2155 View Post
    still got another question though. what would even be the niche of soundproof abomasnow? flygon counter?
    Only thing I can think of is immunity to roar...and meloetta's hyper voice and relic song. Soundproof also gives it an immunity to bug buzz.

    ...Yeah, not too huge of a niche. Best thing it's there for is relic song blocking and that's it.

  3. #1003
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    I could see abomasnow being a revenge killer in uu. Especially with ice shard, you could throw on a band and just spam it. Theoretical set;

    Abomasnow @ choice band/ scarf
    Soundproof
    Jolly/ naive/ hasty
    252 atk/ 4 sp atk/ 252 spd (very crude ev's for now, not doing damage calcs)
    Ice shard
    Earthquake
    Wood hammer
    Hidden power/ ice punch/ energy ball

    Ice shard is for those just to fast yet frail. Earthquake will be (mostly) for fire types and Nidoking. Wood hammer is another Stan that gives good coverage. hidden power could be used for even better coverage while ice punch and energy ball are additional stabs that pack more power and have no bad side effects, respectively. A subseeder set may be used as well, but it's defense won't really hold up well enough for it


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  4. #1004
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    i can see baton pass stall becoming....higher than usual.

    mew spams amnesia and barrier, baton passes to a subseed abomasnow, stall indefinitely.

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    Only thing I can think of is immunity to roar...and meloetta's hyper voice and relic song. Soundproof also gives it an immunity to bug buzz.

    ...Yeah, not too huge of a niche. Best thing it's there for is relic song blocking and that's it.
    Really? Last time I checked, it was a Grass type, Bug Buzz deserves a mention however there are very few special Bug sweepers. The tree's main selling point is Snow Warning which allows the rest of the team to spam Blizzard on end and with that in mind, I don't see it becoming allowed in UU anytime soon...unless they ban Snow Warning which could make it plummet another tier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonicwari View Post
    I could see abomasnow being a revenge killer in uu. Especially with ice shard, you could throw on a band and just spam it. Theoretical set;

    Abomasnow @ choice band/ scarf
    Soundproof
    Jolly/ naive/ hasty
    252 atk/ 4 sp atk/ 252 spd (very crude ev's for now, not doing damage calcs)
    Ice shard
    Earthquake
    Wood hammer
    Hidden power/ ice punch/ energy ball

    Ice shard is for those just to fast yet frail. Earthquake will be (mostly) for fire types and Nidoking. Wood hammer is another Stan that gives good coverage. hidden power could be used for even better coverage while ice punch and energy ball are additional stabs that pack more power and have no bad side effects, respectively. A subseeder set may be used as well, but it's defense won't really hold up well enough for it
    smogon throws on brick break for the last move, but even then, in terms of choice banded ice shard spam, weavile's gonna be king of the realm with 120 base attack and a very nice 125 base speed. On the other hand, though, smogon does call cb aboma "the best offensive set it has."

    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Really? Last time I checked, it was a Grass type, Bug Buzz deserves a mention however there are very few special Bug sweepers. The tree's main selling point is Snow Warning which allows the rest of the team to spam Blizzard on end and with that in mind, I don't see it becoming allowed in UU anytime soon...unless they ban Snow Warning which could make it plummet another tier.
    True, even though the biggest threats that have bug buzz it'll have in UU are yanmega and the occasional galvantula. That, and on smogon, snow warning is banned, so soundproof is the only ability it'll have access to if it wants to be in anything lower than OU.

  7. #1007
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    So it dropped down to UU? Nope...though I do see it happening in the future. If they do use that ban, I can see the tree having some use in the lower tiers.

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  8. #1008

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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    Mew down to UU from OU (Mew just wanted a break from UU but now appears to be ready to end its vacation)
    Mew is a great Pokemon and all, but this really doesn't suprise me all that much. I just don't see a particular niche that it fills in OU besides Baton Passing nearly everything.

    Tornadus down to UU from OU (idk how long this'll last if it happens. Definitely is now in its own shadow)
    It might be interesting to see how Tornadus fares in UU now, since it's last stay was only one tiering period.

    Meloetta down to UU from OU (Either forme typing isn't too favorable for OU, no big shock)
    Pretty much saw this coming too, even though it still has a pretty nice niche in OU.

    Virizion down to UU from OU (This time it probably does go down)
    Virizion was always close to the dropping point, but it's stayed above the cutoff up until recently. I can explain this in one word: Tornadus-T. Virizion usually makes a great answer to Rain, but Tornadus-T's popularity makes it hard for Virizion, what with the Hurricane spam and whatnot.

    Abomasnow down to UU from OU (Soundproof aboma isn't banned in UU unlike snow warning aboma)
    I'm gonna be honest, if Abomasnow drops, it won't just stop at UU. Abomasnow has a niche in OU (and a former niche in UU) as a weather starter, particularly being able to manhandle opposing weather teams in OU with Snow Warning. Aside from that, it's a Pokemon with fairly average stats and terrible typing. It could easily drop to RU, maybe even NU. There's just not much for it in UU without Snow Warning.

    Cofagrigus up to UU from RU (As soon as it got sleep talk there was no way it was gonna stick around)
    Lol, finally. Dusclops sucks.

    Stoutland down to RU from UU (No sand = less usage. Viable in OU from what I've heard)
    I actually thought that he might make OU, since he can now get by most Steel types with Superpower, but it's really not hard to see him dropping since he can't take advantage of Sand Rush anymore.

    Absol up to RU from NU
    Nice. Absol finally getting a little more recognition.

    Roselia down to NU from RU
    Hmm, having a new Spiker in NU will be nice.

    Metang down to NU from RU
    Ha, suck it molk. :P

    Also in the news is the sand veil discussion of OU. Serebii's own complete legitimacy has been leading a charge for the more reasonable sand stream + sand veil ban. In other words, a team can't have ttar/hippo and a sand veiler on the same team. I'm thinking this is most reasonable since it'll be a check to sand...just like a swift swimmer on a non-rain team.
    I really don't like the idea of a complex ban unless it's absolutely needed, and this is certainly not absolutely needed. This isn't like Drizzle + Swift Swim, where those abusers could easily tear most OU teams to pieces. This is Sand Veil, which was the breaking point for just one Pokemon and is abused by only one other. The only real benefit would be helping Cacturne avoid move illegalities in NU, which could be avoided if there were some way to implement this ban in OU only. I guess it's a lot better than a Garchomp + Sand Veil ban, though.

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    Abomasnow down to UU from OU (Soundproof aboma isn't banned in UU unlike snow warning aboma)
    I could foresee the rest of those tiering changes, but I'm confused on this. Shouldn't Abomasnow stay in OU because of Snow Warning despite having Soundproof just as Blaziken stays in ubers because of Speed Boost despite having Blaze?

    Also, abilities like Sand Veil can potentially be banned due to the luck factor, right? So what's stopping someone from having a Pokémon with Sand Veil on their team and hoping to coincidentally face a sand team and abusing the possible evasion boost that way? (Same goes for one team using Drizzle and the other with Swift Swim, and one with Hail and the other with Snow Cloak.)





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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    I could foresee the rest of those tiering changes, but I'm confused on this. Shouldn't Abomasnow stay in OU because of Snow Warning despite having Soundproof just as Blaziken stays in ubers because of Speed Boost despite having Blaze?
    I think the answer here relies in the simplicity of the ban: Just banning sb blaziken was harder to do than just banning blaziken as a whole...if smogon was to ban sb blaziken and not blaze blaziken, it would have to ban anything that has speed boost. Abomasnow is different, seeing as 2 pokes get snow warning, that being itself and snover, compared to the 5 (give or take) pokes that get speed boost, if that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Also, abilities like Sand Veil can potentially be banned due to the luck factor, right? So what's stopping someone from having a Pokémon with Sand Veil on their team and hoping to coincidentally face a sand team and abusing the possible evasion boost that way? (Same goes for one team using Drizzle and the other with Swift Swim, and one with Hail and the other with Snow Cloak.)
    A) I'd have to assume so, though as far as I know an ability that isn't moody hasn't been banned to decrease the odds of hax, just items.
    B) Nothing. The player would be using the sand veiler to check sand.

  11. #1011

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    I could foresee the rest of those tiering changes, but I'm confused on this. Shouldn't Abomasnow stay in OU because of Snow Warning despite having Soundproof just as Blaziken stays in ubers because of Speed Boost despite having Blaze?
    Since Abomasnow and Snover now have access to their DW abilities, the ban has been shifted to a ban on Snow Warning alone. If Abomasnow were to drop, it would be allowed with Soundproof not because Abomasnow + Snow Warning is banned, but just because Snow Warning by itself is banned. The only way this could be equated to Blaziken is if there were a blanket ban for Speed Boost in OU.

    Also, abilities like Sand Veil can potentially be banned due to the luck factor, right? So what's stopping someone from having a Pokémon with Sand Veil on their team and hoping to coincidentally face a sand team and abusing the possible evasion boost that way? (Same goes for one team using Drizzle and the other with Swift Swim, and one with Hail and the other with Snow Cloak.)
    There's really no way that an ability can be broken if you're relying on your opponent's weather to take advantage of it. If that's the case, then most of the time the ability will be useless. If you're not running the weather used to abuse the ability, then you're really not taking advantage of it at all. In addition, opposing Swift Swimmers are just a threat that Rain teams have to deal with, and it's certainly not the same as throwing on a couple of Swift Swimmers onto your own Rain team and tearing up OU with them.

  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    I think the answer here relies in the simplicity of the ban: Just banning sb blaziken was harder to do than just banning blaziken as a whole...if smogon was to ban sb blaziken and not blaze blaziken, it would have to ban anything that has speed boost. Abomasnow is different, seeing as 2 pokes get snow warning, that being itself and snover, compared to the 5 (give or take) pokes that get speed boost, if that makes sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Since Abomasnow and Snover now have access to their DW abilities, the ban has been shifted to a ban on Snow Warning alone. If Abomasnow were to drop, it would be allowed with Soundproof not because Abomasnow + Snow Warning is banned, but just because Snow Warning by itself is banned. The only way this could be equated to Blaziken is if there were a blanket ban for Speed Boost in OU.
    In the same way that Soundproof Abomasnow is allowed in UU and up but Snow Warning Abomasnow is allowed only in OU and up, wouldn't it make sense if Blaze Blaziken were allowed in (any tier that isn't ubers) and Speed Boost Blaziken were allowed only in ubers? I don't see how the ability would have to be banned for all Pokémon that have it if such a restriction were truly needed, but I do see why it's for simplicity's sake.

    I also see how Abomasnow + Snow Warning couldn't be banned previously due to it being the only ability it could legally have at the time, whereas with Blaziken and friends, they all had abilities other than Speed Boost that they could use.

    But speaking of which, why is Snow Warning banned in UU? Is it due to brokenness or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier
    A) I'd have to assume so, though as far as I know an ability that isn't moody hasn't been banned to decrease the odds of hax, just items.
    B) Nothing. The player would be using the sand veiler to check sand.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94
    There's really no way that an ability can be broken if you're relying on your opponent's weather to take advantage of it. If that's the case, then most of the time the ability will be useless. If you're not running the weather used to abuse the ability, then you're really not taking advantage of it at all. In addition, opposing Swift Swimmers are just a threat that Rain teams have to deal with, and it's certainly not the same as throwing on a couple of Swift Swimmers onto your own Rain team and tearing up OU with them.
    I guess you guys do have a point on having to deal with opposing teams that exploit your team strategy. Makes sense.





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  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    Usage Stats time. Tier changes are next month.

    Mew down to UU from OU (Mew just wanted a break from UU but now appears to be ready to end its vacation)
    Tornadus down to UU from OU (idk how long this'll last if it happens. Definitely is now in its own shadow)
    Meloetta down to UU from OU (Either forme typing isn't too favorable for OU, no big shock)
    Virizion down to UU from OU (This time it probably does go down)
    Abomasnow down to UU from OU (Soundproof aboma isn't banned in UU unlike snow warning aboma)
    Cofagrigus up to UU from RU (As soon as it got sleep talk there was no way it was gonna stick around)
    Stoutland down to RU from UU (No sand = less usage. Viable in OU from what I've heard)
    Absol up to RU from NU
    Roselia down to NU from RU
    Metang down to NU from RU

    Also in the news is the sand veil discussion of OU. Serebii's own complete legitimacy has been leading a charge for the more reasonable sand stream + sand veil ban. In other words, a team can't have ttar/hippo and a sand veiler on the same team. I'm thinking this is most reasonable since it'll be a check to sand...just like a swift swimmer on a non-rain team.
    Mew- It was obviously suspected. Mew serves no legitimate purpose and had no defining niche in OU. Plus, it serves a much better role down in UU, where it can deal with the rising number of Fighting types down there.

    Tornadus- Way too obvious. Tornadus-T > Tornadus. Period.

    Meloetta- Also expected. It's Aria forme is really slightly undesirable and people would definitely flock more towards Pirouette form. Unfortunately, it has 3MSS (Ancient Song is useless to Physcial Melo), so it sucks even more.

    Virizion- Tornadus-T makes it suck now. No, correction. It always sucked, and Torna-T was the final nail in the coffin.

    Abomasnow- Hail was going well, then a new boatload of Rain Abusers came around and threatened Christmas once more.

    Cofagrigus- This thing is the Shizz. The fact that it's one of the best counters to the slew of new fighting types and MoxieCross gives it a humongous nich in the tier.

    Stoutland- Sand got banned, and as a result, Stoutland now magically sucks in UU.

    Absol- There possibly goes one of the best checks to NU's Physical, frail sweeper metagame.

    Roselia- Doesn't serve much purpose in RU. The only benefit that Roselia would serve in NU is that it's a great counter to Alomomola and Amoonguss and can reliably set up Spikes better than anything else in the tier, which compounds the problem of the physical sweeper metagame NU has.

    Metang- At least we would have a solid Cincinno counter again.
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    i disagree about virizion. it served a good thing in countering voltturn, more specifically, rotom-w. it also used to counter rain so well, being able to pick off frail sweepers with its great speed and power.

    thougj, agreed, it does suck now with tornadus-t who is present in both areas of what virizion countered: voltturn and rain :/

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    btw, going though Hackmon stats. I know it's technically not competitive, but this made me lol.

    | 19 | Magikarp | 400 | 7.584% | 131 | 3.928% |
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  16. #1016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    In the same way that Soundproof Abomasnow is allowed in UU and up but Snow Warning Abomasnow is allowed only in OU and up, wouldn't it make sense if Blaze Blaziken were allowed in (any tier that isn't ubers) and Speed Boost Blaziken were allowed only in ubers? I don't see how the ability would have to be banned for all Pokémon that have it if such a restriction were truly needed, but I do see why it's for simplicity's sake.

    I also see how Abomasnow + Snow Warning couldn't be banned previously due to it being the only ability it could legally have at the time, whereas with Blaziken and friends, they all had abilities other than Speed Boost that they could use.
    I don't think you quite understand what I was trying to say. Abomasnow wasn't necessarily the broken in and of itself, but Snow Warning was what was broken. Even after Abomasnow had already been banned, Snow Warning was voted broken even with the dependence on Snover. Since Snover and Abomasnow both lacked their DW abilities, they were effectively banned with Snow Warning. Now that their DW abilities are released, Snover has been dropped to NU (a special case, since everyone agreed that no one in their right minds would use it with Soundproof), and Abomasnow will drop to UU if its usage drops in OU. Right now, this is not the case with Blaziken at all. If Speed Boost were voted broken in OU and banned altogether, Blaziken would no doubt drop from Ubers for a retest. But right now that is not the case, unlike Abomasnow.

    But speaking of which, why is Snow Warning banned in UU? Is it due to brokenness or something?
    Yes, Snow Warning caused enough problems in UU due to the absurdity of Snow Cloak Froslass (and the then UU Mamoswine) and random BlizzSpam that UU players finally called for its ban.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I don't think you quite understand what I was trying to say. Abomasnow wasn't necessarily the broken in and of itself, but Snow Warning was what was broken. Even after Abomasnow had already been banned, Snow Warning was voted broken even with the dependence on Snover. Since Snover and Abomasnow both lacked their DW abilities, they were effectively banned with Snow Warning. Now that their DW abilities are released, Snover has been dropped to NU (a special case, since everyone agreed that no one in their right minds would use it with Soundproof), and Abomasnow will drop to UU if its usage drops in OU. Right now, this is not the case with Blaziken at all. If Speed Boost were voted broken in OU and banned altogether, Blaziken would no doubt drop from Ubers for a retest. But right now that is not the case, unlike Abomasnow.
    Ah, okay. To think that associating Snow Warning with Abomasnow would make so much incorrect tiering...

    But why is Snover with Snow Warning allowed in NU if it's banned there? Wouldn't this be a case where one says to Snover, "Oh well, Snow Warning is banned here, so the only ability you can go with in NU is Soundproof"?





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  18. #1018

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Ah, okay. To think that associating Snow Warning with Abomasnow would make so much incorrect tiering...

    But why is Snover with Snow Warning allowed in NU if it's banned there? Wouldn't this be a case where one says to Snover, "Oh well, Snow Warning is banned here, so the only ability you can go with in NU is Soundproof"?
    Snover isn't allowed in NU with Snow Warning, just Soundproof. Snow Warning is banned in UU all the lower tiers as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Snover isn't allowed in NU with Snow Warning, just Soundproof. Snow Warning is banned in UU all the lower tiers as a result.
    Oh, okay. I must have read your post wrong.

    Are Natu and Ferroseed the only two Pokémon that have non-LC explanations (on Smogon) and can be used in LC?





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  20. #1020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Oh, okay. I must have read your post wrong.

    Are Natu and Ferroseed the only two Pokémon that have non-LC explanations (on Smogon) and can be used in LC?
    There are a couple of others, like Munchlax and Misdreavus (who may be a LC Uber, I can't remember), but not many else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    There are a couple of others, like Munchlax and Misdreavus (who may be a LC Uber, I can't remember), but not many else.
    Misdreavus is an LC uber, yes.

    There should be a "level 100 LC" metagame. I wonder how that would fare. (:





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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Misdreavus is an LC uber, yes.

    There should be a "level 100 LC" metagame. I wonder how that would fare. (:
    That takes the charm out of playing the LC tier.

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    gliscor was banned from little cup. if that helps. i believe snover and vulpix are also banned.

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    I think Ferroseed and Munchlax too. Technically, Scyther and Chansey are also banned, as they both qualify for LC in terms of Evolution, but they're banned.

    EDIT: Not Chansey, it has a pre-evo -.-
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    o scyther is probably 100% banned. chansey is also banned, but that's because happiny.

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