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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Yes, Wobbafett was banned from DPPt OU. You'll have to ask someone else about when that was, though, since I think I started playing after its ban.

    But even if it wasn't, what happened in the DPPt metagame is ultimately irrelevant to the decisions made in the BW metagame.
    There was some point in the DPP metagame where Wobbuffet wasn't uber. People then said that Shadow Tag made it too cheap, when in reality, teams were just unprepared for Wobbuffet.

    Is Gothitelle really that broken in UU? Is it so broken that people would have to dedicate their teams solely to defeating it (like how entire teams were devoted solely to defeating Garchomp in the DPP metagame)?





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  2. #1052

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    There was some point in the DPP metagame where Wobbuffet wasn't uber. People then said that Shadow Tag made it too cheap, when in reality, teams were just unprepared for Wobbuffet.

    Is Gothitelle really that broken in UU? Is it so broken that people would have to dedicate their teams solely to defeating it (like how entire teams were devoted solely to defeating Garchomp in the DPP metagame)?
    No, it wasn't that people didn't prepare for Wobbuffet. There's no such thing as being prepared for Wobbuffet. People don't sit around and think, "What do I need to add to my team to prevent being swept by Wobbuffet?" The reason Wobbuffet was broken was because of the support it could offer for its team. Whenever it came onto the field, your opponent had no choice but try to handle it with whatever they already had out (outside of Shed Shell). It was easy for Wobbuffet to just kill whatever was there with CounterCoat or use Tickle on it several times and let a Pursuit user come in and do the rest. Not to mention that Encore lasted longer than it does in BW, so if Wobbuffet caught you in a non-damaging move, you were completely helpless. Once it kills off the target, there's not telling what you might be open to.

    Wobbuffet was banned from UU earlier this Gen for the same support characteristics, and Gothitelle offered pretty much the same support, just on a more offensive avenue. If Gothitelle came in on something it could kill, the opponent will have just lost a Pokemon. No questions asked. If Goth comes in on a Gligar, it will die and Heracross might be able to sweep the opponent clean. If it comes in on Slowbro, it will kill that off and leave the field open for Darmanitan. Normally teams that run these kinds of counters would be perfectly safe, but Gothitelle ensured that they would be gone, nearly guaranteed. It's not something you prepare your team for, because it really wouldn't matter in the first place. It's not like you can switch out to a counter if Goth comes in.

  3. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    No, it wasn't that people didn't prepare for Wobbuffet. There's no such thing as being prepared for Wobbuffet. People don't sit around and think, "What do I need to add to my team to prevent being swept by Wobbuffet?" The reason Wobbuffet was broken was because of the support it could offer for its team. Whenever it came onto the field, your opponent had no choice but try to handle it with whatever they already had out (outside of Shed Shell). It was easy for Wobbuffet to just kill whatever was there with CounterCoat or use Tickle on it several times and let a Pursuit user come in and do the rest. Not to mention that Encore lasted longer than it does in BW, so if Wobbuffet caught you in a non-damaging move, you were completely helpless. Once it kills off the target, there's not telling what you might be open to.

    Wobbuffet was banned from UU earlier this Gen for the same support characteristics, and Gothitelle offered pretty much the same support, just on a more offensive avenue. If Gothitelle came in on something it could kill, the opponent will have just lost a Pokemon. No questions asked. If Goth comes in on a Gligar, it will die and Heracross might be able to sweep the opponent clean. If it comes in on Slowbro, it will kill that off and leave the field open for Darmanitan. Normally teams that run these kinds of counters would be perfectly safe, but Gothitelle ensured that they would be gone, nearly guaranteed. It's not something you prepare your team for, because it really wouldn't matter in the first place. It's not like you can switch out to a counter if Goth comes in.
    Teams would just have to see that any Pokémon they send out would have a chance to be trapped by Wobbuffet and work around it. But obviously, that's much more easily said than done.

    Anyway, is a Gothitelle with Frisk usable in whatever tier is directly below the tier it's currently in because of Shadow Tag?





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  4. #1054

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Teams would just have to see that any Pokémon they send out would have a chance to be trapped by Wobbuffet and work around it. But obviously, that's much more easily said than done.

    Anyway, is a Gothitelle with Frisk usable in whatever tier is directly below the tier it's currently in because of Shadow Tag?
    No, because Shadow Tag wasn't what was banned. Gothitelle was banned to BL in and of itself, just like Kyurem, Staraptor, and Wobbuffet.

  5. #1055
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    Gothitelle is pretty annoying. I have only ever faced one and being trapped into a taunt as a wall and being unable to switch out just caused me to quit immediately.

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  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    No, because Shadow Tag wasn't what was banned. Gothitelle was banned to BL in and of itself, just like Kyurem, Staraptor, and Wobbuffet.
    Then why is Snover allowed with Soundproof but not Snow Warning in certain tiers? (Unless I'm wrong about this.)
    Never mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Gothitelle is pretty annoying. I can't believe they won't put Kyurem-B back into Uber though. Tired of the thing already.
    Isn't it still uber? o_o





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  7. #1057

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Gothitelle is pretty annoying. I can't believe they won't put Kyurem-B back into Uber though. Tired of the thing already.
    I wouldn't worry about it too much. There's plenty of people already protesting about Kyurem-B's brokenness, so it may not be there long.

    In other news, the new OU suspect thread is up. It's pretty clear from the suspect ladder that was put up a couple weeks ago that Garchomp without Sand Veil isn't broken, so it's pretty likely that he'll be a new addition to OU. However, we still have yet to determine if Sand Veil still breaks Garchomp. While I personally don't think that it'll be any different with Sand Veil than it was at the beginning of BW1, there is a chance that the dominance of Rain and various new checks will balance it out, so this testing period will be used to help determine the fate of Sand Veil itself.

    Oh, and THE SUSPECT VOTING PROCESS IS BACK, BABY!!!!!

  8. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I wouldn't worry about it too much. There's plenty of people already protesting about Kyurem-B's brokenness, so it may not be there long.

    In other news, the new OU suspect thread is up. It's pretty clear from the suspect ladder that was put up a couple weeks ago that Garchomp without Sand Veil isn't broken, so it's pretty likely that he'll be a new addition to OU. However, we still have yet to determine if Sand Veil still breaks Garchomp. While I personally don't think that it'll be any different with Sand Veil than it was at the beginning of BW1, there is a chance that the dominance of Rain and various new checks will balance it out, so this testing period will be used to help determine the fate of Sand Veil itself.

    Oh, and THE SUSPECT VOTING PROCESS IS BACK BABY!!!!!
    Oh great, armies of Garchomp again. >.<

    Isn't it still uber? o_o
    Kind of riding the line. On PO atm you can use it in OU.

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  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    In other news, the new OU suspect thread is up. It's pretty clear from the suspect ladder that was put up a couple weeks ago that Garchomp without Sand Veil isn't broken, so it's pretty likely that he'll be a new addition to OU. However, we still have yet to determine if Sand Veil still breaks Garchomp. While I personally don't think that it'll be any different with Sand Veil than it was at the beginning of BW1, there is a chance that the dominance of Rain and various new checks will balance it out, so this testing period will be used to help determine the fate of Sand Veil itself.
    Personally, I think there should be a test to see whether Gothitelle with Shadow Tag is broken. But since it's only BL, it probably wouldn't get high priority (no pun intended). Maybe if and when it gets to OU, maybe...





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  10. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Personally, I think there should be a test to see whether Gothitelle with Shadow Tag is broken. But since it's only BL, it probably wouldn't get high priority (no pun intended). Maybe if and when it gets to OU, maybe...
    Yeah Gothitelle isn't bad enough to go any higher than OU.

    Truthfully Dugtrio is pretty annoying too.

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  11. #1061

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Personally, I think there should be a test to see whether Gothitelle with Shadow Tag is broken. But since it's only BL, it probably wouldn't get high priority (no pun intended). Maybe if and when it gets to OU, maybe...
    Just to clarify, BL is a banlist from UU. BL Pokemon are still very much usable in OU already, and therefore so is Gothitelle. It has already been tested with Shadow Tag in UU and was voted 5-2 in favor of a ban by the UU Council. Here's the suspect discussion thread.

  12. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Just to clarify, BL is a banlist from UU. BL Pokemon are still very much usable in OU already, and therefore so is Gothitelle. It has already been tested with Shadow Tag in UU and was voted 5-2 in favor of a ban by the UU Council. Here's the suspect discussion thread.
    Isn't OU technically already a banlist for UU to begin with? What is it about the Pokémon in BL that makes them not actually OU? I never got this.

    (And seven seems a tad too small for a number of people who decide what should belong in a tier, but that's besides the point.)





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  13. #1063

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Isn't OU technically already a banlist for UU to begin with? What is it about the Pokémon in BL that makes them not actually OU? I never got this.

    (And seven seems a tad too small for a number of people who decide what should belong in a tier, but that's besides the point.)
    OU is made up of Pokemon that have gained enough usage to be declared "OU". BL Pokemon are those that do not have the usage to be OU, and as such were UU at one time, but they were banned because of either brokenness or an otherwise very unhealthy influence on the UU metagame. OU Pokemon are banned from UU, but it is a usage tier, not a UU banlist.

    I'm not a huge fan of the council either, to be honest. I think that the votes should be up to all of the players in the community who have proven themselves competitively knowledgeable and capable, which is what Smogon is going back to with this new Garchomp test. However, the councils do tend to make decisions that generally follow what the community decides as a whole.

    @Below: BL isn't really a pointless term at all. Calling a Pokemon "OU" just because it was banned from UU is fallacious, because not all Pokemon banned from UU are used enough in OU to be declared "Overused".

  14. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Isn't OU technically already a banlist for UU to begin with? What is it about the Pokémon in BL that makes them not actually OU? I never got this.

    (And seven seems a tad too small for a number of people who decide what should belong in a tier, but that's besides the point.)
    BL isn't really a tier. It is more Smogon saying "we can't stand having this Pokemon in UU, but it lacks the right to have the title OU. Let's just make a new bracket!"

    It is a pretty pointless term IMO, it basically is OU by default since you can't play BL as a tier type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Isn't OU technically already a banlist for UU to begin with? What is it about the Pokémon in BL that makes them not actually OU? I never got this.

    (And seven seems a tad too small for a number of people who decide what should belong in a tier, but that's besides the point.)
    no. ou is based on usage. it doesnt need to be good to be in ou.

    bl are pokemon that dont get enough usage to be considered ou, but are too OP for uu. see, abomasnow/kyurem.

    seven is a great number. if you had 25 people, it'd take too long. 3, and its not an accurate measurement. plus, they are the greatest minds in pokemon.

    EDIT: ninja'd :/ twice.

  16. #1066
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    I had to read through the thread to really see what was up. Mikedecishere pretty much sums up what I'm thinking, though destinyunknown brings up another valid point.

    Not only does it get shadow tag, it gets trick and decent stats.

    With trick, spike stacking becomes really, really easy. Does your opponent have a spinner when you're trying to set up spikes to the max? Switch in goth, trick it a choice item, proceed to destroy it. Gothitelle has the movepool to hit all of the premier UU spinners for super effective damage: Psyshock for hitmontop, thunderbolt for blastoise, and, if someone ran it over hp fighting, shadow ball for claydol. (Sandslash, kabutops, and cryogonal are RU spinners but still can't touch gothitelle...ok, sandslash probably has the best chance out of these 6 spinners since it has great physical defense to at least take a few psyshocks; however, I'm not too sure many sandslashes run max attack and defense.) Is that a wall in your way? Trick it a choice item and destroy it, then send in a sweeper and demolish the opponent.

    I'd get more into its stats if I had a better explanation for how they help, but honestly trick and the ability to maximize spike stacking and the power to crumble walls is a good enough explanation to see why goth is broken in my opinion.

  17. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    OU is made up of Pokemon that have gained enough usage to be declared "OU". BL Pokemon are those that do not have the usage to be OU, and as such were UU at one time, but they were banned because of either brokenness or an otherwise very unhealthy influence on the UU metagame. OU Pokemon are banned from UU, but it is a usage tier, not a UU banlist.
    If some Pokémon are moved from OU to ubers due to brokenness and not due to usage percentage increases and decreases, I don't see why they can't just be moved to OU. But whatever. :/

    I'm not a huge fan of the council either, to be honest. I think that the votes should be up to all of the players in the community who have proven themselves competitively knowledgeable and capable, which is what Smogon is going back to with this new Garchomp test. However, the councils do tend to make decisions that generally follow what the community decides as a whole.
    I definitely agree. The usage percentages are based on how often the competitive community as a whole use Pokémon, not just those seven people. As such, the entire knowledgeable competitive community should be able to decide what belongs in what.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    BL isn't really a tier. It is more Smogon saying "we can't stand having this Pokemon in UU, but it lacks the right to have the tile OU. Let's just make a new bracket!"

    It is a pretty pointless term IMO, it basically is OU by default since you can't play BL as a tier type.
    Yeah, I mean, why bother having a tier called "BL" between UU and OU if there's no tier between OU and ubers for Pokémon like Garchomp and Blaziken?





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  18. #1068

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    If some Pokémon are moved from OU to ubers due to brokenness and not due to usage percentage increases and decreases, I don't see why they can't just be moved to OU. But whatever. :/
    Because Ubers is not a usage tier either. It's a banlist for OU, just like BL is to UU. The only difference is that it's substantial enough to be playable, unlike the smaller BL/BL2/BL3 banlists.

    Yeah, I mean, why bother having a tier called "BL" between UU and OU if there's no tier between OU and ubers for Pokémon like Garchomp and Blaziken?
    BL isn't a tier, it's just a banlist. Ubers is also just a banlist, only one that people have made a metagame out of. Calling Pokemon banned from UU "Overused" even if they aren't used enough for the OU tier doesn't make any sense, thus BL. It also doesn't make any sense to make a banlist between OU and Ubers when Ubers is the OU banlist.

  19. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    BL isn't a tier, it's just a banlist. Ubers is also just a banlist, only one that people have made a metagame out of. Calling Pokemon banned from UU "Overused" even if they aren't used enough for the OU tier doesn't make any sense, thus BL. It also doesn't make any sense to make a banlist between OU and Ubers when Ubers is the OU banlist.
    Ah, so that explains how Politoed isn't in ubers already. Thanks for the (massive) clarification.

    (Still advocating for LC 100!)





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  20. #1070
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    Yeah, I mean, why bother having a tier called "BL" between UU and OU if there's no tier between OU and ubers for Pokémon like Garchomp and Blaziken?
    I really don't get why regular Blaziken is banned.

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  21. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I really don't get why regular Blaziken is banned.
    I think it's because Speed Boost itself isn't banned, and because the complexity of the ban isn't worth its presence in the tier that it would otherwise belong. :/





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  22. #1072
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    I think it's because Speed Boost itself isn't banned, and because the complexity of the ban isn't worth its presence in the tier that it would otherwise belong. :/
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  23. #1073

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I really don't get why regular Blaziken is banned.
    Because we're not going to try to nerf one Pokemon via a Pokemon + ability combination just to keep a Pokemon out of Ubers that would have no impact whatsoever on the OU metagame. If Blaze Blaziken were allowed, no one would use it. Heck, I seriously doubt it would stay in UU. I could easily see this thing falling to RU before it were to find its niche.

  24. #1074
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Because we're not going to try to nerf one Pokemon via a Pokemon + ability combination just to keep a Pokemon out of Ubers that would have no impact whatsoever on the OU metagame.
    I'm assuming that tests with Blaze Blaziken have been done and show that it would belong in a non-OU tier. Otherwise I ask, "How would one know whether or not it would have any impact in the OU metagame?"

    If Blaze Blaziken were allowed, no one would use it. Heck, I seriously doubt it would stay in UU. I could easily see this thing falling to RU before it were to find its niche.
    Speaking of RU, is it just another usage percentage-based tier that was made between NU and UU solely because there were too many Pokémon in both?





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  25. #1075

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    I'm assuming that tests with Blaze Blaziken have been done and show that it would belong in a non-OU tier. Otherwise I ask, "How would one know whether or not it would have any impact in the OU metagame?"
    Blaziken was UU in 4th Gen for one major reason: Infernape did pretty much everything it did but a little better. Even if you could manage the lower defenses and below average speed that also plagued Blaziken (and still do), Infernape outclassed it. That hasn't changed. Infernape's speed stat is even more important now in 5th Gen, and even then Infernape is not as popular as it once was. Even past that, Blaziken has to contend with plenty of other Fighting type Pokemon in Terrakion, Virizion, Conkeldurr, and even the now UU Mienshao that never gave it competition before. I'd like to turn the question back to you: what niche could Blaziken possibly fulfill in OU that would warrant decent usage?

    And this is still underlying the fact that initiating a complex ban just to neuter a Pokemon to fit OU is ridiculous.

    Speaking of RU, is it just another usage percentage-based tier that was made between NU and UU solely because there were too many Pokémon in both?
    The "U" in the tier names stands for "Used", which is a good indicator of which ones are usage based. If it isn't XU, it's a banlist (or an alternate metagame, like LC, but whatever).

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