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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #1076
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Blaziken was UU in 4th Gen for one major reason: Infernape did pretty much everything it did but a little better. Even if you could manage the lower defenses and below average speed that also plagued Blaziken (and still do), Infernape outclassed it. That hasn't changed. Infernape's speed stat is even more important now in 5th Gen, and even then Infernape is not as popular as it once was. Even past that, Blaziken has to contend with plenty of other Fighting type Pokemon in Terrakion, Virizion, Conkeldurr, and even the now UU Mienshao that never gave it competition before. I'd like to turn the question back to you: what niche could Blaziken possibly fulfill in OU that would warrant decent usage?
    Ah, okay, that first part answers the part about "tests with Blaze Blaziken".

    And this is still underlying the fact that initiating a complex ban just to neuter a Pokemon to fit OU is ridiculous.
    Eh, I see both sides of the argument well enough. Such bans could be implemented if it weren't for the overall wanted simplicity of the metagame.

    The "U" in the tier names stands for "Used", which is a good indicator of which ones are usage based. If it isn't XU, it's a banlist (or an alternate metagame, like LC, but whatever).
    Neat. Thanks. (:





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  2. #1077
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    And this is still underlying the fact that initiating a complex ban just to neuter a Pokemon to fit OU is ridiculous.
    I just think Smogon doesn't want to deal with the little extra work to make the Blaziken fans happy so they cover it up with a logical reason. They already have numerous complex bans like DW Zapdos prohibition in UU, and all the clauses.

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  3. #1078
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    ...DW Zapdos prohibition in UU...
    Really? How short is the stick that Zapdos got?





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  4. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Really? How short is the stick that Zapdos got?
    You can only use Lightningrod Zapdos in OU, but you can use Pressure in UU.

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  5. #1080

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I just think Smogon doesn't want to deal with the little extra work to make the Blaziken fans happy so they cover it up with a logical reason. They already have numerous complex bans like DW Zapdos prohibition in UU, and all the clauses.
    When did they make a DW Zapdos ban? DW Zapdos hasn't been released yet, according to its Serebii page, so it's obviously unavailable in UU. Clauses are also not complex for the most part. Evasion Clause is simply no Double Team or Minimize. Species Clause is just no two of the same Pokemon (and this is the same clause used for many of Game Freak's on rulesets). Sleep Clause could be considered complex in a way, but it is not a condition + condition ban, just a restriction on an already existing condition. And it's certainly not an attempt to nerf a Pokemon for a tier that would have little to no use for it anyways. The only complex ban Smogon has ever used was the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, and that was to fix an entire playstyle without unnecessary casualties, not to neuter one measly Pokemon.

    It's not avoiding a "little extra work," it's avoiding opening up a can of worms about Pokemon + condition bans. Would Excadrill have been broken in OU without Sand Rush? What about Staraptor in UU without the Reckless boost to its already powerful STABs? What about Durant in RU without the raw power of Hustle? Perhaps Jynx wouldn't be broken in NU without its signature Lovely Kiss? If you neuter one Pokemon for OU, there is no reason whatsoever that you should stop there. Following this path, you end up with a messy piece of garbage banlist. Now instead of a straightforward "don't use this" list, you have a bunch of "you can use this as long as you aren't using this" bans. This is honestly the last thing that beginning competitive players need, and I would know. I remember first trying to learn and adjust to OU when I first started playing a couple of years ago.

    And you might as well not talk about the Blaziken fans with me. I'm a huge fan of Blaziken myself, and I certainly don't think we should try to nerf him for OU. If you want to use Blaziken, use him in Ubers. He's actually really good there, seeing as how Giratina is pretty much the only decent Uber Pokemon that stops him in the Sun.

  6. #1081
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    When did they make a DW Zapdos ban? DW Zapdos hasn't been released yet, according to its Serebii page, so it's obviously unavailable in UU.
    They gave out Lightningrod Zapdos awhile ago. PO wouldn't let me in UU, but in OU it would.

    Now they want to unban Garchomp if it has Rough Skin? How is that any different?

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  7. #1082

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    They gave out Lightningrod Zapdos awhile ago. PO wouldn't let me in UU, but in OU it would.

    Now they want to unban Garchomp if it has Rough Skin? How is that any different?
    Pokemon Online and Smogon are two completely different communities. Smogon doesn't even have an active PO ladder anymore. Nearly all their battles are on PS! now. Heck, I've seen nothing about its release on the Smogon forums, so apparently they aren't even aware that it has been released at all.

    If you'd go back a couple pages, you'll see what the Garchomp issue is about. Garchomp + Sand Veil is not being banned. Sand Veil alone is what was being tested, as it has already been a controversial ability in the past. Since Sand Veil was the breaking point for Garchomp, it's easy to see that a ban on Sand Veil might make Garchomp more acceptable for the OU metagame. In order to test if this would be a positive impact on the metagame, ladder was set up to test a metagame with Garchomp unbanned and Sand Veil banned, and thus far the results have been great. The only way this would be equivalent to Blaziken is if Speed Boost as a whole were banned, and there's no reason whatsoever to do that.

  8. #1083
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    PO just copies everything from Smogon at some point. I noticed Smogon enjoys banning most thngs that would leave the battle up to luck.

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  9. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    ...Sand Veil alone is what was being tested, as it has already been a controversial ability in the past...
    Whereas Drizzle + Swift Swim, Drought + Chlorophyll, and Sand Stream + Sand Rush (the one that increases Speed, I'm not sure if it's Sand Rush) were/would be ban suspects due to offensive brokenness, (Sand Stream +) Sand Veil and (Snow Warning +) Snow Cloak would be ban suspects due to reliance on luck in their respective weather, correct?

    If this were the case, if (Sand Stream +) Sand Veil were banned, would (Snow Warning +) Snow Cloak automatically be banned, too? (If not, either there must be some other criterion that sand has that hail doesn't, or it's not a ban suspect for the stated reason.)





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  10. #1085

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I just think Smogon doesn't want to deal with the little extra work to make the Blaziken fans happy so they cover it up with a logical reason. They already have numerous complex bans like DW Zapdos prohibition in UU, and all the clauses.
    Why the hell should they try and please Blaziken fans? This is supposed to be competitive pokemon not a damn popularity contest. Covering it up with logical reason? At least their reasons are logical. Really the only complex ban they've made so far is Drizzle + Swift Swim.
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  11. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Whereas Drizzle + Swift Swim, Drought + Chlorophyll, and Sand Stream + Sand Rush (the one that increases Speed, I'm not sure if it's Sand Rush) were/would be ban suspects due to offensive brokenness, (Sand Stream +) Sand Veil and (Snow Warning +) Snow Cloak would be ban suspects due to reliance on luck in their respective weather, correct?

    If this were the case, if (Sand Stream +) Sand Veil were banned, would (Snow Warning +) Snow Cloak automatically be banned, too? (If not, either there must be some other criterion that sand has that hail doesn't, or it's not a ban suspect for the stated reason.)
    Naw, as I said Smogon only hates things that would leave anything to chance. It is kind of vain because of Critical Hits.

    Why the hell should they try and please Blaziken fans? This is supposed to be competitive pokemon not a damn popularity contest. Covering it up with logical reason? At least their reasons are logical. Really the only complex ban they've made so far is Drizzle + Swift Swim.
    Because using six Pokemon I absolutely hate for the sake of winning with no creativity whatsoever does not sound like my definition of "fun".

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  12. #1087

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Because using six Pokemon I absolutely hate for the sake of winning with no creativity whatsoever does not sound like my definition of "fun".
    K, go fight the elite 4 then. They won't tell you what to use.
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  13. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    [Smogon's tendency to ban things that "leave anything to chance" are] kind of vain because of Critical Hits.
    Well, you can't really control critical hit chances and self-hit confusion chances when playing over Wi-fi in the games. Same goes for non-Skill Linked multi-hit moves, or the random factor in the damage formula. :/

    But for evasion, you'd willingly be using Moody and Double Team to purposely rely on that luck to nab you the win, which is something you can control simply by just not using the mechanic.





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  14. #1089

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    PO just copies everything from Smogon at some point. I noticed Smogon enjoys banning most thngs that would leave the battle up to luck.
    Well you certainly don't want a competitive battle to fall into the hands of random chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Whereas Drizzle + Swift Swim, Drought + Chlorophyll, and Sand Stream + Sand Rush (the one that increases Speed, I'm not sure if it's Sand Rush) were/would be ban suspects due to offensive brokenness, (Sand Stream +) Sand Veil and (Snow Warning +) Snow Cloak would be ban suspects due to reliance on luck in their respective weather, correct?
    Something like that. Thus far, most of those bans have not even been considered, but the first three would be because of offensive power and the others because of luck.

    If this were the case, if (Sand Stream +) Sand Veil were banned, would (Snow Warning +) Snow Cloak automatically be banned, too? (If not, either there must be some other criterion that sand has that hail doesn't, or it's not a ban suspect for the stated reason.)
    Snow Cloak has been brought up for a ban, but it's far less frequent than Sand Veil. In fact, Snow Cloak is almost never seen at all. Hail is by far the least popular weather style, so there's far less opportunities to take advantage of it. Froslass could use it to get up some extra Spikes, but even on Hail teams, its frailty and lack of recovery (as well as compounding weaknesses, which all Hail teams need to overcome) usually leaves it in the shadow of more popular Spikers like Skarmory. Mamoswine can make good use of a Snow Cloak miss once in a while, but Thick Fat Mamoswine's Fire neutrality and Ice resistance are going to be superior most of the time. If people start seeing games turned around by Snow Cloak like Sand Veil could with Garchomp in the past and Gliscor in the more recent past, then perhaps it will be banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Naw, as I said Smogon only hates things that would leave anything to chance. It is kind of vain because of Critical Hits.
    Except critical hits isn't in the same ballpark as Sand Veil hax. You can't affect crits without altering the game mechanics, while Sand Veil is just another hax weapon that can and has turned perfectly good games into complete flops because of a stupid miss. And unlike crits, you can viably take advantage of that hax.

    Because using six Pokemon I absolutely hate for the sake of winning with no creativity whatsoever does not sound like my definition of "fun".
    If you're more concerned about being original and using favorites, then you're not being competitive. Real competitive Pokemon (and I use that term lightly) is trying to win as much as possible. Using gimmicks and niche stuff is cool at times, but if using your favorites is at the heart of it, then you are going to be disappointed. So no, we're not going to nerf a Pokemon that has minimal impact on the metagame in question just to let you or other people use one more favorite.

  15. #1090

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    itt: people who don't understand the tiering process, how the tiers work, and the difference between competitive creativity and using bad mons discuss recent bans

  16. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Snow Cloak has been brought up for a ban, but it's far less frequent than Sand Veil. In fact, Snow Cloak is almost never seen at all. Hail is by far the least popular weather style, so there's far less opportunities to take advantage of it. Froslass could use it to get up some extra Spikes, but even on Hail teams, its frailty and lack of recovery (as well as compounding weaknesses, which all Hail teams need to overcome) usually leaves it in the shadow of more popular Spikers like Skarmory. Mamoswine can make good use of a Snow Cloak miss once in a while, but Thick Fat Mamoswine's Fire neutrality and Ice resistance are going to be superior most of the time. If people start seeing games turned around by Snow Cloak like Sand Veil could with Garchomp in the past and Gliscor in the more recent past, then perhaps it will be banned.
    What I don't get is why Snow Cloak would only be banned if hail increased in popularity (or some other valid reason). I get that Chlorophyll + Drought isn't banned because it doesn't share the same offensive presence as does Drizzle + Swift Swim, but Snow Cloak shares the exact same luck factor as Sand Veil.

    Quote Originally Posted by windsong View Post
    itt: people who don't understand the tiering process, how the tiers work, and the difference between competitive creativity and using bad mons discuss recent bans
    How does knowing how the tiers work but questioning and discussing several things about the different tiers and the mechanics within the game equal not understanding the tiering process and how tiers work?





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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    How does knowing how the tiers work but questioning and discussing several things about the different tiers and the mechanics within the game equal not understanding the tiering process and how tiers work?
    he wasn't talking about you dw

  18. #1093

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    What I don't get is why Snow Cloak would only be banned if hail increased in popularity (or some other valid reason). I get that Chlorophyll + Drought isn't banned because it doesn't share the same offensive presence as does Drizzle + Swift Swim, but Snow Cloak shares the exact same luck factor as Sand Veil.
    Mainly because we want to ban what is actually a problem. When people look at Sand Veil, they see a hax ability that pushed Garchomp over the edge into Ubers. It's also not uncommon for Gliscor to completely sweep opposing teams because of a miss. Even the occasional SD Cacturne, believe it or not, can dominate some teams if it gets lucky. So Sand Veil has caused the ban of one Pokemon, plenty of undeserved sweeps on another, and the occasional undeserved sweep of a couple rarer Pokemon. When you look at Snow Cloak, you just don't see that. Snow Cloak only has one abuser with a boosting move, Beartic, and it doesn't have the speed or bulk to sweep (or STAB priority to make up for it, like Cacturne). The closest thing to an OU sweep based on a miss that you'll ever get with Snow Cloak is Mamoswine, and those situations are practically non-existant. Snow Cloak might be lumped into the Evasion Clause sometime in the future (especially since all Snow Cloak users have an alternate ability now), but for now it's not being suspected because it's just not an issue.

  19. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Snow Cloak might be lumped into the Evasion Clause sometime in the future (especially since all Snow Cloak users have an alternate ability now), but for now it's not being suspected because it's just not an issue.
    Yeah, that's exactly what I don't get. Why leave Snow Cloak as it is but ban Sand Veil if the two are literally counterparts? Banning both, despite one not posing a real problem, would also get rid of the cases that would otherwise arise due to Snow Cloak. Is it precisely because Snow Cloak is viably used by so few Pokémon that a ban on it wouldn't affect the metagame much anyway?

    Speaking of things with alternate abilities, consider the following scenario:
    A Pokémon is in a tier. That Pokémon has access to only one ability, and that ability is deemed broken in the tier that it's in. Would that ability be banned because it's deemed broken, or would it be unbannable because that Pokémon doesn't have access to any other ability?





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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Because using six Pokemon I absolutely hate for the sake of winning with no creativity whatsoever does not sound like my definition of "fun".
    Play like me then. Find a way to use awful Pokemon well and once you get the hang of things, you'll be fine. It's like hard mode in that other RPG.
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  21. #1096
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    K, go fight the elite 4 then. They won't tell you what to use.
    This condescending elitist attitude is exactly why so many people are turned away from competitive battling anymore. Nobody wants to be told what Pokemon to use. Fortunately between OU/UU there is tons of room to craft a personable team from almost any idea. However I am willing to be half of the teams I make nobody else would because I am willing to think outside the box and the standard. When I see these armies of Tyranitar, Dragonite, Garchomp, Politoed etc I just nod my head in shame. In every single metagame for any competitive gaming community there is always one genuine expert, and then 85% of the rest of people just copy or work off that person. This close mindedness is what makes new players feel coerced to play a certain way or they are bad.

    Well, you can't really control critical hit chances and self-hit confusion chances when playing over Wi-fi in the games.
    Exactly why I said going to the extent of banning Sand Veil is pretty vain. Evasive clause is fair because people will abuse their near invincibility, but something that only slightly raises evasiveness at a static increment that is still very hittable shouldn't be that bad. I've gone through entire battles annihilating my opponent by landing four criticals in a row, and I have been asleep for 10 turns at a time. Things happen that we can't control, and trying to control them just limits our horizon.

    What I don't get is why Snow Cloak would only be banned if hail increased in popularity (or some other valid reason). I get that Chlorophyll + Drought isn't banned because it doesn't share the same offensive presence as does Drizzle + Swift Swim, but Snow Cloak shares the exact same luck factor as Sand Veil.
    I really don't think I have seen anyone run Snow Cloak ever. Sand Veil is predominant so of course that is where they turn the attention.

    Play like me then. Find a way to use awful Pokemon well and once you get the hang of things, you'll be fine. It's like hard mode like in that other RPG,
    I make specialty teams already, using a lot of UU or less than perfect Pokemon and finding a way to put them into an incredibly omnipotent level of synergy. This is my recent team:

    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...verte-Catclysm

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  22. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Exactly why I said going to the extent of banning Sand Veil is pretty vain. Evasive clause is fair because people will abuse their near invincibility, but something that only slightly raises evasiveness at a static increment that is still very hittable shouldn't be that bad. I've gone through entire battles annihilating my opponent by landing four criticals in a row, and I have been asleep for 10 turns at a time. Things happen that we can't control, and trying to control them just limits our horizon.
    The way I see it, whether or not that evasion boost is big doesn't matter, because the basic premise of the matter is the same; all the evasion-boosted Pokémon's user has to hope for is that one critical moment when their foe misses for them to take the cake.

    I really don't think I have seen anyone run Snow Cloak ever. Sand Veil is predominant so of course that is where they turn the attention.
    Of course Sand Veil gets more attention, since it's the ability that made an otherwise-OU Pokémon become uber. But what I proposed was a Snow Cloak ban along with the possible Sand Veil ban.





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  23. #1098

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Yeah, that's exactly what I don't get. Why leave Snow Cloak as it is but ban Sand Veil if the two are literally counterparts? Banning both, despite one not posing a real problem, would also get rid of the cases that would otherwise arise due to Snow Cloak. Is it precisely because Snow Cloak is viably used by so few Pokémon that a ban on it wouldn't affect the metagame much anyway?
    Like I said earlier, Snow Cloak isn't being considered like Sand Veil because it is just so much less of an issue. That's honestly about all I can really say on that subject.

    Speaking of things with alternate abilities, consider the following scenario:
    A Pokémon is in a tier. That Pokémon has access to only one ability, and that ability is deemed broken in the tier that it's in. Would that ability be banned because it's deemed broken, or would it be unbannable because that Pokémon doesn't have access to any other ability?
    Well, cases like that haven't happened yet, so it's impossible to say what the ultimate decision would be. However, I can tell you that it would come down to the discernment of the community and the actual details of the case. If an ability in inherently broken, it will probably be banned and the Pokemon in question along with it. After all, if the ability is broken, then the Pokemon having it would be broken. Therefore, a Pokemon forced to run a broken ability for it being its only option is as broken as the ability itself.

    That's weird wording, I know, but it's hard to clarify these things at 12:30 in the morning, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    This condescending elitist attitude is exactly why so many people are turned away from competitive battling anymore. Nobody wants to be told what Pokemon to use. Fortunately between OU/UU there is tons of room to craft a personable team from almost any idea. However I am willing to be half of the teams I make nobody else would because I am willing to think outside the box and the standard. When I see these armies of Tyranitar, Dragonite, Garchomp, Politoed etc I just nod my head in shame. In every single metagame for any competitive gaming community there is always one genuine expert, and then 85% of the rest of people just copy or work off that person. This close mindedness is what makes new players feel coerced to play a certain way or they are bad.
    There is nothing wrong with using original ideas, as long as they benefit a person competitively. Some great sets have come about by people thinking outside the box. However, using something like Gligar when Gliscor is available in OU isn't being competitively intuitive; it's being plain dumb.

    It's been said a million times, but no one is making you use any particular Pokemon. When people use common Pokemon, it's because they're good. They work. If you want to use a lower tier Pokemon to fulfill a certian niche, then who's stopping you? And contrary to what you seem to believe, some of the best teams in the metagame utilize at least one or two lower tier Pokemon. Heck, Lavos Spawn's new Sun team contains both Victini and Xatu, two UUs that work great in OU, and that Sun team has become a model for plenty of Sun teams used now. Other good examples of lower tier Pokemon with OU niches include things like Victreebel, Slowbro, and Quagsire. Again, using these is great, because you're actually using intuition to be competitive. However, creativity for creativity's sake is just bad.

    Exactly why I said going to the extent of banning Sand Veil is pretty vain. Evasive clause is fair because people will abuse their near invincibility, but something that only slightly raises evasiveness at a static increment that is still very hittable shouldn't be that bad. I've gone through entire battles annihilating my opponent by landing four criticals in a row, and I have been asleep for 10 turns at a time. Things happen that we can't control, and trying to control them just limits our horizon.
    Apparently you've never played against a Sand Veil abusing Garchomp or Gliscor. Sand Veil isn't just a little bit of hax that you can cast aside. It's arguably even worse than Double Team, and the reason is because it's passive hax. With Double Team, you have to use up a turn getting your Evasion boost, effectively lowering your opponent's accuracy to 75%. Sand Veil is a similar boost, lowering accuracy to 80%, but the abuser can take advantage of it by doing whatever the heck they want. The don't have to use up a turn getting the Evasion. They can set up a Sub. Or boost with SD. Or attack. Or whatever else. And unlike extra sleep turns or critical hits, it's something you can actually build a viable set to take advantage of (and no, Scope Lense + Super Luck is not a viable set). With Leftovers, a Garchomp back in the day could get up 5 Subs before it ran out of HP, so you'd have to hit it 6 times in a row to kill it and avoid misses. With a 100% accuracte move, which you should have no problem hitting with, you have about a 26% chance of hitting Garchomp. Does that still sound like the same problem as an occasional crit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Like I said earlier, Snow Cloak isn't being considered like Sand Veil because it is just so much less of an issue. That's honestly about all I can really say on that subject.
    I could've sworn I put "But that's up to the discretion of the people who decide these things, which means you probably won't be able to give a good answer," but it somehow didn't go through.

    Well, cases like that haven't happened yet, so it's impossible to say what the ultimate decision would be. However, I can tell you that it would come down to the discernment of the community and the actual details of the case. If an ability in inherently broken, it will probably be banned and the Pokemon in question along with it. After all, if the ability is broken, then the Pokemon having it would be broken. Therefore, a Pokemon forced to run a broken ability for it being its only option is as broken as the ability itself. That's weird wording, I know, but it's hard to clarify these things at 12:30 in the morning, lol.
    In your personal opinion (and the opinions of others reading this post), consider an ability Y that gives x5.0 Attack and x5.0 Speed, but gives x0.5 Defense and x0.5 Sp. Def. A Pokémon Q has access to ability Y and Illuminate with base stats comparable to Garchomp's, and a Pokémon R has access to just ability Y, but has extremely low base stats. If there's a ban on ability Y in a tier and all tiers below it, would Pokémon R be allowed to stay in that tier?

    And the wording's fine, but I'm just curious as to whether or not Pokémon R would be "as broken as ability Y".





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    The way I see it, whether or not that evasion boost is big doesn't matter, because the basic premise of the matter is the same; all the evasion-boosted Pokémon's user has to hope for is that one critical moment when their foe misses for them to take the cake.
    I've missed with Fire Blast and my opponent took the match because of it. Since everyone is good now, usually one screw up is all it takes to lose anymore.

    Of course Sand Veil gets more attention, since it's the ability that made an otherwise-OU Pokémon become uber. But what I proposed was a Snow Cloak ban along with the possible Sand Veil ban.
    Out of the hundreds of battles I have done, I think I have fought about five hail teams ever, excluding mine. Two of them had any Pokemon with Snow Cloak, and I don't remember it otherwise impacting my battle. A Glaceon with Snow Cloak is a hell of a lot less dangerous than a Garchomp with Sand Veil.

    It's been said a million times, but no one is making you use any particular Pokemon. When people use common Pokemon, it's because they're good. They work. If you want to use a lower tier Pokemon to fulfill a certian niche, then who's stopping you? And contrary to what you seem to believe, some of the best teams in the metagame utilize at least one or two lower tier Pokemon. Heck, Lavos Spawn's new Sun team contains both Victini and Xatu, two UUs that work great in OU, and that Sun team has become a model for plenty of Sun teams used now. Other good examples of lower tier Pokemon with OU niches include things like Victreebel, Slowbro, and Quagsire. Again, using these is great, because you're actually using intuition to be competitive. However, creativity for creativity's sake is just bad.
    I've seen all three of thoughts wipe me out so believe me I know. I was mostly countering his attitude that seemed like they should be forcing me to use those, or more that the option to use regular Blaziken shouldn't be considered as a way to leave options open for fans, because their opinion doesn't matter out of a like for Blaziken.

    Apparently you've never played against a Sand Veil abusing Garchomp or Gliscor. Sand Veil isn't just a little bit of hax that you can cast aside. It's arguably even worse than Double Team, and the reason is because it's passive hax. With Double Team, you have to use up a turn getting your Evasion boost, effectively lowering your opponent's accuracy to 75%. Sand Veil is a similar boost, lowering accuracy to 80%, but the abuser can take advantage of it by doing whatever the heck they want. The don't have to use up a turn getting the Evasion. They can set up a Sub. Or boost with SD. Or attack. Or whatever else. And unlike extra sleep turns or critical hits, it's something you can actually build a viable set to take advantage of (and no, Scope Lense + Super Luck is not a viable set). With Leftovers, a Garchomp back in the day could get up 5 Subs before it ran out of HP, so you'd have to hit it 6 times in a row to kill it and avoid misses. With a 100% accuracte move, which you should have no problem hitting with, you have about a 26% chance of hitting Garchomp. Does that still sound like the same problem as an occasional crit?
    The problem with Garchomp specifically is even with Sand Veil aside he is so brutally dangerous that missing once could cost you the match. Excellent typing and STAB on top of a pretty open movepool and god level stats. Pair that up with a 20% increased dodge ratio and yeah it is pretty bad.

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