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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I've missed with Fire Blast and my opponent took the match because of it. Since everyone is good now, usually one screw up is all it takes to lose anymore.
    Running Fire Blast is a risk that you actively take in order to deal more damage. It's different from evasion boosts from Sand Veil, for example, since you have direct control over using a move that has a chance of missing. With Sand Veil, you have no control over whether or not the move you use will miss.

    Out of the hundreds of battles I have done, I think I have fought about five hail teams ever, excluding mine. Two of them had any Pokemon with Snow Cloak, and I don't remember it otherwise impacting my battle. A Glaceon with Snow Cloak is a hell of a lot less dangerous than a Garchomp with Sand Veil.
    I can't deny that Glaceon with Snow Cloak is less dangerous than a Garchomp with Sand Veil, both when considering base stats and tier placement. However, there's no reason not to ban Snow Cloak if there's a reason to ban Sand Veil, since Sand Veil and Snow Cloak both have the bannable quality of an evasion increase in a weather condition. Contrarily, though, I see that there is also no reason to ban Snow Cloak, as the ban wouldn't affect the metagame much at all.





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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I've missed with Fire Blast and my opponent took the match because of it. Since everyone is good now, usually one screw up is all it takes to lose anymore.
    risk vs. reward =/= abusing luck

  3. #1103

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I was mostly countering his attitude that seemed like they should be forcing me to use those, or more that the option to use regular Blaziken shouldn't be considered as a way to leave options open for fans, because their opinion doesn't matter out of a like for Blaziken.
    It really shouldn't be considered since it would accomplish nothing from a competitive stand point. Bringing "fans" into the equation is irrelevant since the casual audience is different from the competitive audience so asking Smogon or anyone else really to cater to casuals is pretty much forcing your opinion on them, and if you don't want to be told what to use then don't tell them what to do. Goes both ways, see how that works?
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    It really shouldn't be considered since it would accomplish nothing from a competitive stand point. Bringing "fans" into the equation is irrelevant since the casual audience is different from the competitive audience so asking Smogon or anyone else really to cater to casuals is pretty much forcing your opinion on them, and if you don't want to be told what to use then don't tell them what to do. Goes both ways, see how that works?
    Yes but there is the fine line where both balance out and co-exist. Let me make this clear though, nirvana is impossible to achieve so keep your (not you d0nut) trap shut and let life flow...

    That said, I wonder how the Japanese interpret these training mechanics...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    That said, I wonder how the Japanese interpret these training mechanics...
    Simple. Preparation for war.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Yes but there is the fine line where both balance out and co-exist. Let me make this clear though, nirvana is impossible to achieve so keep your (not you d0nut) trap shut and let life flow...

    That said, I wonder how the Japanese interpret these training mechanics...
    Considering the vast contrast between the Japanese and the rest of the world in things like the Pokémon TCG, I wouldn't be surprised if they saw Smogon's tiering system as a complete joke and if they had their own superior system of competitive Pokémon or something. :/





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  7. #1107
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    Running Fire Blast is a risk that you actively take in order to deal more damage. It's different from evasion boosts from Sand Veil, for example, since you have direct control over using a move that has a chance of missing. With Sand Veil, you have no control over whether or not the move you use will miss.
    It is easier to gratify my own skill level if I only lose due to bad luck.

    It really shouldn't be considered since it would accomplish nothing from a competitive stand point. Bringing "fans" into the equation is irrelevant since the casual audience is different from the competitive audience so asking Smogon or anyone else really to cater to casuals is pretty much forcing your opinion on them, and if you don't want to be told what to use then don't tell them what to do. Goes both ways, see how that works?
    Sure if you want to immediately classify everyone who prefers Blaziken over Infernape a casual.

    Considering the vast contrast between the Japanese and the rest of the world in things like the Pokémon TCG, I wouldn't be surprised if they saw Smogon's tiering system as a complete joke and if they had their own superior system of competitive Pokémon or something. :/
    I actually think Japan's system is probably worse. I have fought about ten Japanese players on PO and most of them were awful or mediocre. I think at this point American players are better, though it isn't painfully obvious since any world tournament runs by VGC rules.

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  8. #1108

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Sure if you want to immediately classify everyone who prefers Blaziken over Infernape a casual.
    Do I really have to explain what's wrong with this? In COMPETITIVE pokemon people are going to use the better pokemon because they PLAY TO WIN. When you look at Infernape's many advantages over Blaziken, notably its speed, movepool, and things of that sort there really is no reason to use Blaziken in OU. Even in UU there would be a chance he would be useless considering there are faster heavy hitting Fire types out there like Darmanitan. Regardless, its easiest just to leave Blaziken where it is as opposed to creating complex bans just to please casuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I actually think Japan's system is probably worse. I have fought about ten Japanese players on PO and most of them were awful or mediocre. I think at this point American players are better, though it isn't painfully obvious since any world tournament runs by VGC rules.
    ... Or maybe the Japanese are onto something and know better than to take a game like this seriously...
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    Do I really have to explain what's wrong with this? In COMPETITIVE pokemon people are going to use the better pokemon because they PLAY TO WIN.
    Yeah tryhards, which unfortunately there are a lot of. I put having fun battling at a higher prioirity than only caring about winning at all costs. If winning was the only thing I cared about I would just so what most other people do and copy the top players' teams and learn how to use them. However if this was the case I'd be bored within a half hour knowing it would be an empty vain attempt to boost my own ego.

    ... Or maybe the Japanese are onto something and know better than to take a game like this seriously...
    Kind of contradicts the attiude of the first part of your post. If a Japanese person used that as an excuse it would just sound like the generic "Waah you are netter than me. Guess I'll justify my inferioirty by claiming I have more of a life than you."

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  10. #1110

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    iFi Salamander, I think it would do you good to remember where you are posting. This is Competitive Pokemon, where, by its very definition, people play to win as the primary objective. Using your favorites is not a priority. Using fun gimmicks is not a priority. Working with Pokemon you like is not a priority. If you want to use gimmicks or favorites on a team, then by all means, go ahead. I personally love a little craziness on a team here and there. But we are not going to twist policy and complicate a ruleset just so a couple of fanboys can play with more favorites. Those "tryhards" that you are referring to are the real competitive players, the only reason this sort of play even exists, and they will always be the number one priority in decisions concerning bans, not the fans of a certain Pokemon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Sure if you want to immediately classify everyone who prefers Blaziken over Infernape a casual.
    In all honesty, if I were to have to choose for a sweeper, I'd go with Blaziken (despite lacking Speed Boost) over Infernape any day. This is due to its access to Agility and if played right, it can be devastating. Once again though, it will be a cold day in hell before it gets a complex ban (don't get me started with the objections about Darkrai lacking sleep inducing moves and the like). Let it go but there is one thing I can't let go, where's the comic of Birch and his mountain of Torchic!?

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I actually think Japan's system is probably worse. I have fought about ten Japanese players on PO and most of them were awful or mediocre. I think at this point American players are better, though it isn't painfully obvious since any world tournament runs by VGC rules.
    I'm shocked yet not surprised at the same time.
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  12. #1112

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Yeah tryhards, which unfortunately there are a lot of. I put having fun battling at a higher prioirity than only caring about winning at all costs. If winning was the only thing I cared about I would just so what most other people do and copy the top players' teams and learn how to use them. However if this was the case I'd be bored within a half hour knowing it would be an empty vain attempt to boost my own ego.
    Gonna second what jf said. If you are going to come into the COMPETITIVE forum and brush the community off as a bunch of elitist tryhards then perhaps your in the wrong forum. If you want to use your favorites just shut up and do it instead of trying to drag everyone down to your level. If you happen to love Blaziken then go play Ubers, its not like Blaziken is bad or anything since it KOs just about everything after a Swords Dance even in Ubers.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    Kind of contradicts the attiude of the first part of your post. If a Japanese person used that as an excuse it would just sound like the generic "Waah you are netter than me. Guess I'll justify my inferioirty by claiming I have more of a life than you."
    ...Or maybe they just care more for games that reward skill instead of dumb luck like pokemon...
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    Gonna second what jf said. If you are going to come into the COMPETITIVE forum and brush the community off as a bunch of elitist tryhards then perhaps your in the wrong forum. If you want to use your favorites just shut up and do it instead of trying to drag everyone down to your level. If you happen to love Blaziken then go play Ubers, its not like Blaziken is bad or anything since it KOs just about everything after a Swords Dance even in Ubers.
    You do realize I am expert competitive battler and I sometime spend hours and hours on end thinking and creating new creative teams right? Did you even bother to look at the link I posted earlier in this thread with my current team project? I guess not.

    I am talking about the elitists who are just arrogant copycats. You can't drag someone down to a level in an upwards position.

    If you happen to love Blaziken then go play Ubers, its not like Blaziken is bad or anything since it KOs just about everything after a Swords Dance even in Ubers.
    When I play Ubers I have more fun using powerful legends anyways. I don't touch Garchomp either.

    ...Or maybe they just care more for games that reward skill instead of dumb luck like pokemon...
    I can give you that, skill is not a very valuable aspect to Pokemon battling, since anyone can land six criticals with a terrible team and win. If I want skill in a turn based environment I'll play chess. Otherwise a fighting game.

    iFi Salamander, I think it would do you good to remember where you are posting. This is Competitive Pokemon, where, by its very definition, people play to win as the primary objective.
    A little give and take, if I were so obsessed with winning I'd just go play VGC and spam Double Team and get empty wins. I do make my teams with the intention of winning, but I just am not a mindless drone who makes every battle decision because a website told me I should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    It is easier to gratify my own skill level if I only lose due to bad luck.
    Eh, the same thing could be said for evasion boosts; you could have bad luck and just miss due to the evasion increase and not an accuracy drop. Fair enough.

    I actually think Japan's system is probably worse. I have fought about ten Japanese players on PO and most of them were awful or mediocre. I think at this point American players are better, though it isn't painfully obvious since any world tournament runs by VGC rules.
    Maybe the Japanese don't use tier systems at all or something like that.

    That being said, it isn't very accurate to say that the Americans are better than the Japanese if the Japanese lost to a system that is used more by American people than Japanese people.





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  15. #1115

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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    You do realize I am expert competitive battler and I sometime spend hours and hours on end thinking and creating new creative teams right? Did you even bother to look at the link I posted earlier in this thread with my current team project? I guess not.

    I am talking about the elitists who are just arrogant copycats. You can't drag someone down to a level in an upwards position.
    Thinking of teams and sets does not make anyone an expert at this game. Everyone who plays beyond the basic in-game stuff does this at one level or another. I might be more inclined to consider you an "expert" if you had any notable accomplishments. Have you ever won or placed high in a significant tourny? Ever made a high peak on the ladder? Have you qualified and voted during a round of suspect testing? If you haven't done any of those things chances are your just average or worse. I'm also pretty sure a good amount of those "arrogant copycats" could beat you both at creating teams or at playing the game so don't act like they are beneath you when you have done nothing to prove you are better than them. It's also rather ironic that you are calling them "elitist" at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    When I play Ubers I have more fun using powerful legends anyways. I don't touch Garchomp either.
    Ok, since you like to use legends only in Ubers more power to you, but that obviously means you don't care enough to use Blaziken so just let it rock. Don't give me that "but I would use Blaziken in OU/UU" crap. By that logic I would love to use Darkrai in OU without Dark Void, or Kyogre in NU so long as it is at lv 50.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I can give you that, skill is not a very valuable aspect to Pokemon battling, since anyone can land six criticals with a terrible team and win. If I want skill in a turn based environment I'll play chess. Otherwise a fighting game.
    Which is why Japanese do play fighting games mainly, and Koreans Starcraft as well as other fighting games. Everyone has their thing. It's a bit unfair to talk crap about them as a nation because they don't feel like bothering with "competitive" pokemon like some people in the US and other countries do.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    A little give and take, if I were so obsessed with winning I'd just go play VGC and spam Double Team and get empty wins. I do make my teams with the intention of winning, but I just am not a mindless drone who makes every battle decision because a website told me I should.
    Based on the ruleset VGC is probably even less balanced from a competitive perspective than playing with Smogon rules so it's not really the best example to support your case. Playing to win is good, but just because you choose to do so in a creative manner doesn't mean you can trash people who prefer to play with superior pokes to further increase their chances of winning. It doesn't make them any more mindless than you or anyone else as how the pokes are played could end up making more of a difference than the pokes themselves in some cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    Which is why Japanese do play fighting games mainly, and Koreans Starcraft as well as other fighting games. Everyone has their thing.
    The only Pokémon-related thing that I definitely know the Japanese play competitively in is the Pokémon TCG.

    Considering the fact that the Japanese and the rest of the world each had different competitive TCG rules up until the release of the Black & White sets, I wouldn't be too surprised if they view competitive battling differently than the rest of the competitive community.





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    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    I do make my teams with the intention of winning, but I just am not a mindless drone who makes every battle decision because a website told me I should.
    the best players on smogon are actually the ones who know how to deviate from the norm. the worst players are the ones who copy every set from the analyses.

    that being said though, most players who are pseudo-hipsters and always want to be making up new sets (which usually don't work) also tend to be bad.

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    @ the above discussion: ...yall got trolled.

    Back on topic, LC has once again suspected drillbur and murkrow. Remember the last time they tried to do this? Yeah, they were unanimously not broken...that may have just been murkrow, idr. However, new meta, new mechanics...I'll keep yall posted to see how these are going.

    Also, OU is having its first suspect testing of Garchomp and sand veil. While there is no set dates, to be a tester, you must have a rating of 1900 and deviation of 50 or lower on PS. This will be also something to keep up with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    Back on topic, LC has once again suspected drillbur and murkrow. Remember the last time they tried to do this? Yeah, they were unanimously not broken...that may have just been murkrow, idr. However, new meta, new mechanics...I'll keep yall posted to see how these are going.
    What new metagame is it? And what new mechanics were introduced (I'm assuming these are newly-released Dream World abilities)?





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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    What new metagame is it? And what new mechanics were introduced (I'm assuming these are newly-released Dream World abilities)?
    I shoulda said "changed meta."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dewhinifier View Post
    I shoulda said "changed meta."
    Oh, okay.

    Thanks for crushing my dreams of LC 100! ):





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    Garchomp back in OU... hard decision. Choice Scarf Kyurem-W revenges all but Choice Scarf variants. But with Sand Veil, and the increased popularity of Sandstorm in OU, it would seem broken. Rough Skin, on the other hand, has been more popular than I thought it would, making Garchomp more useful outside of Sandstorm teams, but in the end I still think it's broken.
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    i honestly think, with the amount of new, anti-dragon sets going around now, as well as mamo, it wouldn't do well in ou. rephrased, "it would do well, but not scizor well". see, kyurem-b. not that big an impact as keldeo/ditto/thunderus-t were.

    if they go with the proposed sand veil/ sand veil + sandstream ban(any feedback on that? couldnt find the thread), it might do ok. it has a skimpy movepool, but its sub set would still be decent, even used in the (more or less)same way. switch in on a non-existent threat, sub on switch. but now, so many things beat it. keldeo, possibly terrakion(check), genesect(check), soooo many others. basically, only sand veil is really holding it back.

    @Ifi: i pretty much have to agree with d0nut. to say all smogon is elitist is wrong. they actually make fair decisions, based on public opinion. to disrespect them is childish and rude. to say you are "an expert battler" is also cocky.

    too bad i suck at laddering :/ wouldve decided on shtuff

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    Is Solar Power Charizard still NU? Because if he is, he shouldn't be.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevensevens View Post
    Is Solar Power Charizard still NU? Because if he is, he shouldn't be.
    It is...it would seem that the fact Charizard has a x4 weakness to Stealth Rocks and so-so stats compared to Pokes in a higher tier overshadow Solar Power...which I totally agree with...Charizard is just too threatened to last very long even in NU...and it doesn't have the monster stats or movepool like Volcarona to even out its weaknesses (Has access to Quiver Dance+Sub+Morning Sun). And even Volcarona seems to be more trouble than it's worth sometimes...I guess the the only really huge reason no one uses Charizard anymore is because since Stealth Rocks came into the metagame it just became more trouble than it was worth to try and make a team able support Charizard's needs.
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