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Thread: IGRMT Rater's Guide

  1. #1

    Default Team Building Basics Guide

    In-Game Team Building

    Many people come to Serebiiforums to request help with building a successful team for in-game use. While the general opinion is that an in-game team simply only requires high levels, a good one will need far more than this. It is important for someone who is seeking to create an excellent team to look into the workings of a game. They must carefully decide on moveset choices, Natures, Items, and EVs if they wish to use them.

    I often see in IGRMT many people asking for help on where to begin with a team. They want to do well, but don't know what to look for or why to use one option over another. In this guide, I hope to create a tool which the less experienced may use to help them get started in building good teams. I will be addressing the main points of team building, as well as exploring some game mechanics. So, here we go.


    What Am I Up Against?

    All of the in-game battles in Pokémon games have two players; one human player, yourself, and one computer controlled AI. As you may expect, the AI does not behave like a human player. You must keep the following points in mind when building your team. The main differences between a human player and the AI are as follows:

    The AI will not switch in many cases.
    While a human player will switch Pokémon as they need to, whether it be to bring in a Pokémon that can resist an opponent's attack, or bring in one to handle a tough situation, the AI will not identify these situations and so will not take advantage of their ability to switch out of them. You should try to exploit this by using a "safe" opponent to set up attacks, heal the remainder of your team, etc.

    The AI uses Hax to its advantage.
    For those of you who don't know, Hax refers to the unfair ability that the AI has to activate the secondary effects of moves. For example, Water Pulse's 20% confuse rate may seem more like 40% or even 50% for the AI. Additionally, moves like Double Team will seem to work for the opponent but not your and OHKO moves will seem far too accurate where the opposition is concerned. Moves like Substitute are excellent remedies for this issue, as they will block the added effects of moves so that you can't be affected by them. Alternatively, fast and powerful Sweepers can outspeed and KO the opposition before they can begin haxing you to death. Remember that moves like Aerial Ace are also far more viable in-game thanks to evasion modifiers.



    Which Moves Should I Be Using?

    Perhaps the most important part of any Pokémon is the moveset that you give it. Even the best Pokémon can play very poorly if you give it a moveset that doesn't work. Offensive movesets are more popular in-game because of how they can easily sweep through many opponents, so my main focus will be on them. Here are a number of things that you should do when deciding on an appropriate moveset for your Pokémon:

    Play with your Pokémon's best offensive stat.
    Look at your Pokémon's Base Stats on Serebii's Pokédex, or another location of your choice. You will notice that the majority of Pokémon have one stat that is superior to the other, and you should try to use this stat the most when you are choosing a moveset. A Breloom, for example, will benefit much more from using Seed Bomb, a physical move, than it will from Energy Ball which is Special. However, some Pokémon have multiple usable Base Stats, which are generally considered to be above Base 90. These Pokémon can add moves from both sides of the attacking spectrum to allow them to combat walls, which are Pokémon generally designed to take hits from one side of the spectrum, much more effectively.

    Get good coverage from your moves.
    No matter how powerful the moves in an offensive moveset, it will not work well unless you can hit many types for good damage. Here is an example of a moveset with poor coverage. The Pokémon used is an Electivire.


    • Thunderbolt
    • Thunderpunch
    • Thunder
    • Thundershock

    More than one move of a single type is a bad idea, as you will be less useful against foes who resist that type. Additionally, all of the moves do the same thing; attempt to Paralyze the opponent. It would be very easy to improve on this moveset with something like the following.

    • Thunderpunch
    • Cross Chop
    • Earthquake
    • Ice Punch

    These four moves together provide brilliant coverage, hitting 13/17 types for Super Effective damage. The moves serve a variety of purposes, and can handle multiple threats easily.

    Utilise your STAB.
    STAB is an acronym for Same Type Attack Bonus. Simply put, this is a mechanic that boosts an attack by 50% if it is of the type as the Pokémon using it. For example, take Earthquake. It is a Base 100 move, but if a Ground type was to use it, this would be elevated to Base 150. It is clear that it will benefit you in almost all cases to use one STAB move on each of your Pokémon.

    Setup moves.
    By this, I mean moves that will boost your stats over time to make you into a very potent threat. For example, Dragon Dance is a common used move because it boosts both your Speed and your Attack simultaneously, making you into a very dangerous Sweeper. You should remember that these moves exist, rather than just using four attacks on one set.

    Status inducing moves.
    Moves such as Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp will force Status Effects to be induced on your opponent. This will help you because it disadvantages your opponent massively, giving you an easier time setting up. On a more defensive moveset, you should consider using these sort of moves carefully, as they can massively benefit you or hinder you, depending on how appropriate your choice. Be aware that a very viable tactic in-game, however, is to simply destroy your opponent quickly. For this reason, it is generally recommended that you use very few Status-Inducing moves on your team, and on the bulkiest members if possible when there are few better options available.

    What not to use.
    While there are a great number of moves that are usable, some should be avoided as much as possible. They are as follows.

    Hyper Beam and Hyper Beam-esque moves.
    These moves are incredibly powerful, but they leave you completely immobile next turn. You cannot use items, you cannot switch, and you cannot attack during this time. In virtually every case, you can use two turns more productively, and so these moves should always be avoided. The moves are Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Rock Wrecker, and Roar of Time. Additionally, two-turn moves should be avoided for the same reason. They are Dive, Dig, Fly, Razor Wind, Sky Attack, Skull Bash, Solarbeam, and Shadow Force. Focus Punch is not one of these moves.

    OHKO Moves.
    Their accuracy is simply too low when the AI's Hax is factored in. You can use these moveslots with much more reliable moves. The OHKO moves are Horn Drill, Guillotine, Fissure, and Sheer Cold.

    Certain HM Moves
    With the exception of Surf and Waterfall, the HM moves are either extremely poor or outclassed. Avoid them for this simple reason, and get what is referred to as an "HM Slave" instead, which is a Pokémon that knows four HM moves for field use only.

    Note about 5th Gen HM Moves: To complete Pokémon Black and White, you do not need HMs, other than Cut, which appears only once. Therefore, if you are looking to beat only the Elite Four and come back to do the rest later, you should not teach your team members HM moves.


    Which Natures Should I use?

    Natures have a great bearing on what your Pokémon is good or bad at. They can boost one of your stats and reduce another by 10% each, or leave them alone completely.

    Commonly used Natures
    Here are some commonly used Natures and reasons why they are used often.

        Spoiler:- Natures:


    • Abilities
    Abilities also factor in greatly with movesets. Depending on the aim of the moveset, the ability can make or break the success of the Pokemon. A perfect example would be Togekiss, whose two abilities are Hustle, which increases the power of Attack moves at the cost of accuracy, and Serene Grace, which doubles the chances of added effects happening. Serene Grace, which makes HaxKiss such a monster, is commonly picked due to Hustle being almost worthless to Togekiss.
    Last edited by Noctourniquet; 6th June 2012 at 7:04 PM.

  2. #2

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    What Are EVs and IVs?

    EVs and IVs are perhaps the most complex part of creating an excellent Pokémon team, and make the difference between good and great. If you do not like the more technical side of Pokémon, then you need not read this section. However, skipping this will greatly hinder your ability to successfully build and rate teams.

    How do EVs work?
    EVs are values that are hidden within the game, and normal players are not meant to know about. They are gained by defeating or catching other Pokémon. The type of EV and number of EVs obtained vary depending on which Pokémon is defeated. Check Serebii.net's Pokédex to see which EVs are gained from which Pokémon.

    A single Pokémon can gain a total of 510 EVs, with up to 255 in each stat. Each 4 EVs gained translate to 1 stat point gained by Level 100. Thus, you can gain up to 63 points in a single stat by Level 100 through the method of EV Training as 255/4 = 63.75, which is rounded down.

    How do IVs work?
    IVs, like EVs, are hidden values within the game. Unlike EVs, however, they are not controllable. Each Pokémon is created with a total of 6 IVs, one for each stat. The IVs range from 1-31, with 31 being the best. At Level 100, a Pokémon with 31 IVs in a stat will have 30 more points than one with 1 IV in the stat. The combination of IVs that your Pokémon has also decides the strength and type of its Hidden Power move, which you can use if you know how to get the needed IVs.

    Allocation of EVs.

    The following does not always work with competitive. There is a competitive Ev Guide found in CRMT which you should refer to if you want to play competitively.

    Many people struggle when it comes to allocating EVs, because they do not know where to start or why they should allocate EVs into certain stats. When allocating EVs, it is important that you consider what you want your Pokémon to be able to do, and how you can design it to do this job efficiently. Here are some common techniques applied to Pokémon of different roles.

    What is the relevance of 252?
    Very often, people will use 252 EVs in a stat when creating an EV Spread. Occasionally, confusion is created because the EVs for a single stat Max at 255, so at first glance, it would be logical to use 255 EVs rather than 252. However, when applying maths, it becomes clear why using 255 is wasteful. Remember the following concepts of EVs;

    ~ 1 stat point is gained for every 4 EVs.
    ~ The number of stat points gained can be determined by dividing the number of invested EVs by 4. For example, 16 EVs = 4 stat points because 16/4 = 4.
    ~ If the number of invested EVs is not a multiple of 4, then the result is rounded down. For example, 15 EVs = 3 stat points because 15/3 = 3.75, which is 3 when rounded down.

    Now, plug in the numbers 252 and 255 to determine how much they will gain each. 252/4 = 63, and so 63 stat points will be gained. 255/4 = 63.75, which is rounded down, and so 63 stat points will still be gained. Therefore, you are wasting 3 EVs by investing 255 rather than 252.

    How should I EV a fully offensive Pokémon?

    NOTE: ALL EXAMPLES ASSUME THAT THE POKEMON HAS PERFECT IVs. TO ACHIEVE SIMILAR GOALS WITH YOUR POKEMON'S EV SPREAD, YOU WILL FIRST HAVE TO CALCULATE YOUR IVs AND CUSTOMISE YOUR EVs ACCORDINGLY

    An offensive Pokémon is a Pokémon designed to take out many opponents very quickly with attacks that are normally STAB Boosted. On occasion, they will use Attack, Special Attack, or Speed boosting moves such as Dragon Dance, and I will address such Pokémon separately.

    Firstly, we'll look at the non-boosting Sweepers. These generally run a straightforward set of four attacking moves along with a Life Orb, or similar item. These Pokémon most commonly run EV Spreads of 4 HP / 252 Atk or SpAtk / 252 Spe. The reasoning behind this is simple; most Sweepers will want to be as fast and as powerful as they possibly can, and so maxing your Atk or SpAtk and Spe is logical and acceptable.

    Speed boosting Sweepers can be given a different approach by removing some unnecessary EVs from Spe and re-investing them into HP or defensive stats. But this is where the problems arise. How many EVs should be removed, and why should they be removed? When EVing a Speed Booster, it is critical to look at what you will be able to outspeed after your boosts. Remember how the Stat Boost Stages work.

        Spoiler:- Speed Boost Stages:


    Now, we know how much to increase our Spe by when calculating how many EVs to invest. But why are we calculating this? Why should we use fewer than 252 Spe EVs? Well, most of the time, you will be wasting EVs if you run Maximum because you will not be meeting any specific targets. To explain this fully, I'll use an example. This is an Empoleon carrying the move Agility, which boosts your Spe by two stages, or to 200%.


    4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe, Timid.

    This is a standard sweeper set, but not on a standard Sweeper. Let's take a look at the actual stats of this Empoleon after using Agility. This Empoleon maximises its Speed, which gives it an actual stat of 240. Now, we double this because we are calculating how fast the Empoleon will be after using Agility, giving it a Speed stat of 480. This might seem great, but now consider, do you need 480 Spe? It's extremely fast, but does it need to be that fast? Let's take a look at the fastest serious threat, Electrode. Assuming that it is running Max Speed, which it often does, it will have a Speed stat of 416. So, you are actually outspeeding it by whole 64 points when you need only outspeed it by 1 point. To fix this, you need to find what the smallest whole number which, when doubled, will be higher than 416. You can do this by adding 1 to 416, to reach your target speed, then dividing 417 by 2 and rounding up. This gives you 209. So, Ceiling(416+1)/2 = 209, where ceiling indicates that the result should be changed to the nearest whole number that is higher than your result. This means that your Empoleon will need only run 209 Spe instead of 240. This is achievable by running only 212 Spe EVs, and you don't even need a Timid Nature, meaning that your Empoleon can switch to Modest to hit harder. As a Sweeper, it will need to be hitting as well as it can, so 252 EVs can be put into SpAtk. Finally, the remaining 44 EVs are dumped into HP for durability. You final spread is 44 HP / 252 SpAtk / 212 Spe, Modest.

    How should I EV a fully defensive Pokémon?

    For this part, I'm doing the complete opposite of before by assuming a totally defensive Pokémon rather than totally offensive. As this is not competitive, you do not need to EV to survive attacks from certain threats, but rather you should work on optimising your Defences. In this guide, I will be focussing on three different styles; Max HP + Equal Defence, Max HP + Concentrate on one Defence, or use Low HP + Concentrate heavily on both Defences. You should vary which style you use with which Pokémon you are EVing.

    Firstly, the Max HP + Equal Defences style. Pokémon with fairly all-round Defensive Stats will want to employ this style, as they will benefit most from being able to take hits from everything evenly. Firstly, with these Pokémon, you should always Max your HP first because this is the most important defensive stat. 252 EVs can be dropped into it straight away. Now, you should tailor your remaining EVs so that they meet in the middle. Each Pokémon will need to be EVd differently here, so I'll use an example of one. Here's an Umbreon;


    252 HP / x Def / x SpDef, x Nature.

    Now, we already have Max HP invested because Umbreon has a mediocre HP in relation to its other Defences. The Def, SpDef, and Nature will come together once we do a little math and find out how to even them out. Firstly, let's look at Umbreon's Base Stats for Def and SpDef. They are 110 and 130 respectively. The actual stats are 256 Def / 296 SpDef. We will want to start by evening these out, so I will give it a +Def Nature, Impish in this case. Now, my actual Def comes in at 281 points. To make this up to the current target, 296, I will need to invest 56 Def EVs. So, we now have an EV Spread of 252 HP / 56 Def / x SpDef, Impish. By subtracting 252 and 56 from 510, which is the total number of EVs that can be used, I have 202 EVs left to work with. I divide this by 2 to find out how many can be allocated into each stat, and get 101, which can be changed to 100 which is the nearest multiple of 4. Now, I put 100 EVs into both Def and SpDef, giving me actual stats of 324 Def / 321 SpDef. Because of deeper game mechanics, which I will not explain now, the Def has come out higher so I can tweak my EVs to make them as equal as possible. My final spread is 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpDef, Impish.

    Now for the next style. It's far simpler than the previous one because it is easily to recognise where it is needed, and employ it. All you need to do is, when EVing a Pokémon that has a far higher Def or SpDef that SpDef or Def respectively, you should simply run a 4 / 252 / 252 spread in order to help remedy the lower Defensive stat. Steelix, for example, has an excellent Def but poorer SpDef, and so running 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef, Careful would be suitable. The only difficulties occur when a Pokémon is using a move that boosts its Def or SpDef, such as Swampert with Curse. As Curse boost Def, it would be appropriate to invest in SpDef here because that stat is being left alone, so again, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef, Careful is an appropriate spread to use.

    Finally, the third style of investing only slightly in HP and investing heavily in your Defences instead. This may seem to be a contradiction, as I mentioned earlier that HP is the most valuable Defensive stat, but if your Base HP is phonemically high already, then investing in it actually has very little effect on the damage taken. A perfect example to be used would be Blissey.


    24 HP / 252 Def / 232 SpDef, Calm.

    Blissey has a Base HP of 255, which is the highest in the game. Therefore, investing heavily into HP would be unwise because she has a huge amount of it anyway. A more appropriate and beneficial method to use would be to run a 4 / 252 / 252 spread, with the 252s being your Defences. This will allow you to take more hits from both sides of the attacking spectrum rather than having an enormous HP, but lacking the defences to successfully back it up.

    Note that, for people who are just skimming this guide, I have made a slightly more complex EV spread (24 HP / 252 Def / 232 SpDef) which maximises the efficiency of Leftovers.

    Is this all I need to know about EVs?

    No, unfortunately not. As this is only a basics guide, I have only covered the basics of how to EV. I have not covered hybrid spreads, combining Offence and Defence. I have not covered Jump Points or Leftovers Recovery points. I have not covered even HP vs odd HP, and I have not covered TrickScarf Spreads. This is because none of these are particularly simple, and you will pick them up over time if you watch the best raters carefully and contact them for information. What I have given you to work with here is a solid base. Build on it.


    Resources.

    The Serebii.net Pokédex, The Serebii.net Attackdex, and The Serebii.net Itemdex. Where would we be without Serebii? My automatic reference for Pokémon facts when I need to look something up.

    Serebii.net's Moveset Calculator. If you want a Pokémon that can learn certain moves, but can't find it, then try searching using this ingenious tool. Excellent if you get stuck with finding a member with a suitable moveset.

    Serebii.net's IV Calculator. The best IV Calculator I've ever used. It gives informative and reliable readouts, and also calculates your Hidden Power's Type and Damage. A highly valuable tool.

    Marriland's Team Builder. This is one of my favourite tools. You input your Pokémon, and it immediately shows you all of your strengths and weaknesses, so you can adjust the Pokémon in your team as needed.

    Smogon's Damage Calculator. Of all the damage calculators that I have tried, this one outclasses them all. It provides a fully featured, easy to use tool for calculating stats and damage. Most of my personal EV Calculations and Damage percentages come from this calculator.

    X-Act's Defensive EV Calculator. A calculator applying the damage formula to find the best possible defensive spread for your Pokémon. Really useful if you prefer not to equalise your defences, as mentioned earlier.

    Blue Harvest's EV, IV and Nature Guide. In case you just can't get this one, perhaps another person's explanation can help you.


    Contributors.

    Special thanks to this lot for helping me out in the creation of this guide, be it from writing for it or just correcting spelling mistakes. In no particular order;

    AlCario, Eon Master, Shuckle, Kerech, SapphireL, Archangel, foxyman1667, Bossk, Shine, Soroft, YOOMTAH, Aurawarrior8.
    Last edited by Noctourniquet; 16th October 2011 at 11:53 PM.

  3. #3
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    Hey all, and welcome to the IGRMT Rater's Guide. In here, you'll find some useful tips and tricks as to how to be a competent rater. First things first: as a rater, you must be aware that you are not always right. Sometimes, a newer member will challenge your post with a rate of their own. Just because they don't have a high post count doesn't mean that their points are invalid; learn to accept the fact that there are other intelligent people out there. Secondly, no flaming. Seriously. It helps absolutely no one when you start spouting "Lrn 2 r8 nubz," or "Omigoshz u sux." If you can't make any sort of constructive contribution to the thread, then don't post at all. It just makes you a troll. Third, people are allowed to use their favorite Pokemon, even if that means they want to use a Luvdisc. If they don't want to change a specific Pokemon, or have an odd set of rules that they want followed, don't argue with them about it. If you don't like their rule, then don't rate their team; you're never forced to do so. And lastly, lurk. Yes, I'm serious. It will help you out if you don't know what you're doing. Don't believe me? When I started out, I was absolutely terrible. I thought Ice Ball was better than Blizzard on Swampert, I thought Compoundeyes boosted accuracy by 30% out of 100%, and I thought TrickScarfing in the BT was stupid. That last one was evident in my first rate, and I was quickly corrected. Yes, I was irritated that I was corrected, but I wanted to learn, so I lurked. And lurked, and lurked, and lurked. I asked questions, I consulted superior raters, I wasn't full of myself. And now, I'm a decent rater. But, I still consult other raters, and I'm still aware that I don't know everything, so I still need help from others. That's the attitude a good rater has; keep these things in mind, and you'll be able to last long here. Now, onto the technical aspects. Below are several terms you should familiarize yourself with, as they are crucial when considering how to best rate a team.

    Synergy: Synergy generally refers to the ability for a team's Pokemon to resist each other's weaknesses. A team with poor synergy will be susceptible to moves of a single type - without any other Pokemon who resist that type - and is easily noticed. An example of good synergy is Gyarados and Electivire: Gyarados commonly lures Electric moves, which Electivire is immune to, thanks to its ability, Motor Drive. Alternatively, Electivire will lure Ground moves, which Gyarados is immune to. When rating, you should definitely check the team's synergy; if it's a 6-Pokemon team, and you see Togekiss, Garchomp, and Venusaur on the same team, you'll want to try to suggest a Pokemon that resists Ice, or find a decent replacement for one of their teammates. Keep in mind that you may not be able to cover every member's weakness; this is fine. The objective is to cover most as many weaknesses as possible, but sometimes that's just not possible, so a few scattered weaknesses is acceptable.

    Coverage: Coverage generally refers to a Pokemon's ability to inflict unresisted damage upon as many Pokemon as possible. Two of the most known examples of good coverage are QuakeEdge and BoltBeam. QuakeEdge is any combination of a Rock and Ground move; the combo is resisted by only 5 Pokemon in the game, and so is considered to have excellent coverage. BoltBeam is any combination of an Electric and Ice move, resisted by only 4 Pokemon in the game, which is great. General coverage may be replaced by weakness coverage (a Pokemon's ability to inflict super effective damage upon the types it is weak to), so choose whichever one makes most sense on each individual Pokemon you rate. Or if it's possible, combine the two. Experiment with different type combos to maximize coverage.

    EVs: You'll see a great number of teams bereft of EVs, or Effort Values. If you don't know what EVs are, consult the Team Building Basics Guide. Anyway, if you do stumble across a team requesting EV spreads, consider a few things:
    1) Every spread should ultimately be between 508-510 EVs. No one should be exceeding that limit, or falling short of it; if you do, you're not creating an ideal spread. Keep in mind that, at level 100, every 4 EVs equals 1 point toward a stat, and that all numbers are rounded down, so any created spread for any specifc stat should be divisible by 4. Otherwise, you're wasting precious points that could be spent to boost another stat.
    2) Assume perfect IVs (Individual Values). Why? Because you have no real and/or efficient way of figuring out each rated team's IVs. It's too complicated of a process to request IV info from every posting member, and it's much easier to have consistent IVs to create EV spreads around. So don't ask people for the IVs of their Pokemon; assume each one is flawless, and go from there.
    3) EV spreads made to counter specific Pokemon is generally a bad idea. These Pokemon are meant to be flexible, ready to take on any situation. If they become too specific, they lose out on gaining their maximum overall benefit from EVs. Also, this isn't a section for competitive teams, so they generally don't need to counter a specific Pokemon. However, if they do need to counter something specific, it's best to suggest a completely different Pokemon instead of messing with spreads. It's worth noting that it isn't always necessary to suggest a spread to poster, especially since many of them (unfortunately) don't care. So unless they ask for it, or you feel as if your set is doomed to failure without the spread, don't bother with it.

    Gimmicks: A gimmick refers to either Pokemon or strategies that are highly situational, and therefore typically will have a high rate of failure unless ideal conditions. Here's an example of a gimmicky moveset on an amazing Pokemon:


    Scizor @ Metronome
    Nature: Jolly
    Ability: Swarm
    EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
    -Attract
    -Swagger
    -Defog
    -Fury Cutter

    Obviously, this isn't the best way to use a Scizor (or even a decent way) , but it still has a chance of working. It's usually a good idea to stay away from suggesting gimmicks, since their rate of failure fluctuates depending on the battle. It's much better to suggest sets that consistently work. That being said, don't flame people who want to use a gimmick. If they like to live on the dangerous side, then so be it.

    Effectiveness vs Efficiency: Pokémon is filled with a plethora of different moves; however, every move is considered useful. Always remember: effectiveness does NOT always equal efficiency. What does this mean? Take the old example of Giga Impact. Now, at first, it seems like an amazing move, right? 150 base power, 225 with STAB. If it comes off of a decent Atk stat, it should demolish opponents. In theory, it is an effective move; in reality, it is far from efficient. It has a turn of recharge, during which you can't perform any move. Because of this, it is easier to use another move in place of Giga Impact. In this example, Return is superior to Giga Impact, because you can inflict more damage in two turns with a max power Return than you can with Giga Impact. There are lots of moves (and entire strategies) that are a waste of time for in-game battle; suggest good replacements for these moves if you see them, and try not to suggest inefficient moves to people.

    If there are extra tips that raters feel should be here, by all means, share them. I'd like to take a moment to tell newcomers that rating isn't an official position; anyone can rate a team! Remember to use your brain while rating, and to post only if you're sure about a suggestion you want to give, and you'll be golden. Hopefully, this guide will show fresh faces how to go about rating competently. And if you're STILL afraid to rate a team, ask a rater for help. We don't bite...for the most part.

    Happy rating!
    Thinking about posting a team in the 5th Gen IGRMT sub-forum? Be sure to read the rules before proceeding. Are you looking to have only one Pokemon rated? Then check out our Single Rate Thread for movesets and help. Thanks!

  4. #4
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    Don't forget to mention that Wish and Future Sight technically do not fall under the two-turn category, and are delayed effect. Especially since Future Sight is now at 100 Bp as opposed to 80.

    Oh, and a personal preference, add a reminder that raters are primarily supposed to improve chosen Pokemon, not replace. This came up in 4th gen earlier this week when someone said a team of favorites was way outclassed and nothing more. This is the Team Building Basics thread, so I figured might as well go here.

    Abilities also factor in greatly with movesets. Depending on the aim of the moveset, the ability can make or break the success of the Pokemon. A perfect example would be Togekiss, whose two abilities are Hustle, which increases the power of Attack moves at the cost of accuracy, and Serene Grace, which doubles the chances of added effects happening. Serene Grace, which makes HaxKiss such a monster, is commonly picked due to Hustle being almost worthless to Togekiss.

    I decided to make the last one Copy-Paste-able, since I deemed it most useful. The others, if you're inclined to use them, I can make Copy-Paste-able to suit your laziness. :P
    Ich koche Spaghetti

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soroft View Post
    Don't forget to mention that Wish and Future Sight technically do not fall under the two-turn category, and are delayed effect. Especially since Future Sight is now at 100 Bp as opposed to 80.
    True, but that doesn't stop it from being a fucking piece of shit. Your foe will know it's coming, and prepare accordingly.

    Oh, and a personal preference, add a reminder that raters are primarily supposed to improve chosen Pokemon, not replace. This came up in 4th gen earlier this week when someone said a team of favorites was way outclassed and nothing more. This is the Team Building Basics thread, so I figured might as well go here.
    Raters are supposed to improve teams, and if that requires pokemon to be changed, that is fine. The OP can choose to either ignore the poster or simply refuse the advice. The only reminder raters need atm is CT's sticky, which should be in this section IMO.

    This guide could be improved in a number of ways. I'm not going to get into 5th gen shit because I seriously can't be fucked to learn a new generation of pokemon games especially when I am retired, but (and this was brought up briefly in 4th gen) this guide is much longer than it needs to be. No-one is going to going to read all that. Most people won't even be inclined to even look at this guide, or even read a single section of it. I know I'm not. The style of the guide indicates that is directed at absolute idiots with no fucking clue about anything, who would be even less inclined to read it. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by TBR
    No matter how powerful the moves in an offensive moveset, it will not work well unless you can hit many types for good damage. Here is an example of a moveset with poor coverage. The Pokémon used is an Electivire.

    • Thunderbolt
    • Thunderpunch
    • Thunder
    • Thundershock

    As you can see, this moveset contains four Electric type moves. This is a very bad idea for multiple reasons. Firstly, you are completely incapable of hitting Ground Types for any damage, meaning that they will almost always beat you. Secondly, you are only capable of hitting Water and Flying for Super Effective damage, meaning that your usefulness all-round is greatly reduced. And finally, all of the moves do the same thing; attempt to Paralyze the opponent. As you can see, it would be very easy to improve on this moveset with something like the following.
    That explanation at the end is fucking overkill IMO. The only people who would need that much to convince them that four thunder moves are bad are the aforementioned idiots, who won't even read this guide, so there's no point. Therefore, since you may as well direct it at some self-respecting person of average intelligence who might read this, a simple argument is suitable:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    More than one move of a single type is a bad idea, as you will be less useful against foes who resist that type.
    That could easily replace that gargantuan "As you can see, this moveset..." paragraph as well as the entire first example.

    I do think an abridged version of this guide is definitely needed for the less patient. I would be happy to write it, although it all depends on whether you or teh modz want one or not.

    Sorry for probably sounding like a jerk, but I am tired so I am in no mood for pleasing everyone and presenting my views at the same time.

  6. #6
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    Lets see...
    On the items, Custap Berry and Evolution Item can be noticed, because Custap + Sturdy is epic lead and Evolution Item improves the defences of a NFE Pokémon.
    ~ Reinier

    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    imo MixPedo could work here

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soroft View Post
    Don't forget to mention that Wish and Future Sight technically do not fall under the two-turn category, and are delayed effect. Especially since Future Sight is now at 100 Bp as opposed to 80.
    See Al's post. Not to mention the fact that there are other moves which can do damage when they're needed, and have added effects which can easily take the place of Future Sight.

    Wish, however, is still awesome, especially with the fact that it now heals for half of the caster's HP. Blissey, anyone?

    Oh, and a personal preference, add a reminder that raters are primarily supposed to improve chosen Pokemon, not replace. This came up in 4th gen earlier this week when someone said a team of favorites was way outclassed and nothing more. This is the Team Building Basics thread, so I figured might as well go here.
    Tbh it's more about improving teams than Pokémon, so if one needs to be replaced then so be it. Of course, if the thread creator doesn't want team members to be changed then that's a different matter but that doesn't really have much to do with team building as it does rating.

    Abilities also factor in greatly with movesets. Depending on the aim of the moveset, the ability can make or break the success of the Pokemon. A perfect example would be Togekiss, whose two abilities are Hustle, which increases the power of Attack moves at the cost of accuracy, and Serene Grace, which doubles the chances of added effects happening. Serene Grace, which makes HaxKiss such a monster, is commonly picked due to Hustle being almost worthless to Togekiss.
    Good idea, I'll add that in now if you don't mind. I'll expand more when I've done more research but tbh I don't think it'll be necessary.

    this guide is much longer than it needs to be. No-one is going to going to read all that. Most people won't even be inclined to even look at this guide, or even read a single section of it. I know I'm not. The style of the guide indicates that is directed at absolute idiots with no fucking clue about anything, who would be even less inclined to read it.
    Guess you can't be completely comprehensive and get your point across quickly. Acknowledged, I'll consider cutting it down some.


    That explanation at the end is fucking overkill IMO. The only people who would need that much to convince them that four thunder moves are bad are the aforementioned idiots, who won't even read this guide, so there's no point. Therefore, since you may as well direct it at some self-respecting person of average intelligence who might read this
    Same as above really. I'll cut the description down.


    I do think an abridged version of this guide is definitely needed for the less patient. I would be happy to write it, although it all depends on whether you or teh modz want one or not.
    Personally, I'm not too sure about this, especially since having two team building guides will just get more confusing imo.

    Sorry for probably sounding like a jerk, but I am tired so I am in no mood for pleasing everyone and presenting my views at the same time.
    Meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by YOOMTAH View Post
    Lets see...
    On the items, Custap Berry and Evolution Item can be noticed, because Custap + Sturdy is epic lead and Evolution Item improves the defences of a NFE Pokémon.
    Noted, for when I actually edit in items.


    Thanks guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueRabbit View Post
    Wish, however, is still awesome, especially with the fact that it now heals for half of the caster's HP.
    Didn't it always do that?

    Personally, I'm not too sure about this, especially since having two team building guides will just get more confusing imo.
    If you insist. It shouldn't be too confusing, though, at least, I hope not.[/QUOTE]

    There is another thing which really bugs me about this guide:

    Quote Originally Posted by TBR
    Speed boosting Sweepers can be given a different approach by removing some unnecessary EVs from Spe and re-investing them into HP or defensive stats. But this is where the problems arise. How many EVs should be removed, and why should they be removed? When EVing a Speed Booster, it is critical to look at what you will be able to outspeed after your boosts. Remember how the Stat Boost Stages work.

    ~ After one boost, you will have increased your stat to 150% or 1.5x the original.
    ~ After two boosts, you will have increased your stat to 200% or 2x the original.
    ~ After three boosts, you will have increased your stat to 250% or 2.5x the original.
    ~ After four boosts, you will have increased your stat to 300% or 3x the original.
    ~ After five boosts, you will have increased your stat to 350% or 3.5x the original.
    ~ After six boosts, you will have increased your stat to 400% or 4x the original.

    Now, we know how much to increase our Spe by when calculating how many EVs to invest. But why are we calculating this? Why should we use fewer than 252 Spe EVs? Well, most of the time, you will be wasting EVs if you run Maximum because you will not be meeting any specific targets. To explain this fully, I'll use an example. This is an Empoleon carrying the move Agility, which boosts your Spe by two stages, or to 200%.


    4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe, Timid.

    This is a standard sweeper set, but not on a standard Sweeper. Let's take a look at the actual stats of this Empoleon after using Agility. This Empoleon maximises its Speed, which gives it an actual stat of 240. Now, we double this because we are calculating how fast the Empoleon will be after using Agility, giving it a Speed stat of 480. This might seem great, but now consider, do you need 480 Spe? It's extremely fast, but does it need to be that fast? Let's take a look at the fastest serious threat, Electrode. Assuming that it is running Max Speed, which it often does, it will have a Speed stat of 416. So, you are actually outspeeding it by whole 64 points when you need only outspeed it by 1 point. To fix this, you need to find what the smallest whole number which, when doubled, will be higher than 416. You can do this by adding 1 to 416, to reach your target speed, then dividing 417 by 2 and rounding up. This gives you 209. So, Ceiling(416+1)/2 = 209, where ceiling indicates that the result should be changed to the nearest whole number that is higher than your result. This means that your Empoleon will need only run 209 Spe instead of 240. This is achievable by running only 212 Spe EVs, and you don't even need a Timid Nature, meaning that your Empoleon can switch to Modest to hit harder. As a Sweeper, it will need to be hitting as well as it can, so 252 EVs can be put into SpAtk. Finally, the remaining 44 EVs are dumped into HP for durability. You final spread is 44 HP / 252 SpAtk / 212 Spe, Modest.
    Let me tell you now that, outside the BT, speed tiers don't matter shit in-game. I've probably said something contradictary to that before; if so I was wrong. Since in-game all of that AI's pokemon are of different levels, IVs, and EVs to yours, calculating speed tiers is basically a waste of time, unless you're in the BT. However, BT speed tiers are quite different to the ones you are talking about and require a different kind of attention. I think it would be best if you removed the entire quoted selection from the main section of the guide, as it is not relevant to in-game. I know that this suggestion will not go down well; however, you don't have to delete it completely. You can always enclose it in a spoiler at the bottom of the page for those enthusiatic readers who might want to learn more about EVing for situations where all pokemon are the same level, which is the only place speed tiers are necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by TBR
    There are three different styles; Max HP + Equal Defence, Max HP + Concentrate on one Defence, or use Low HP + Concentrate heavily on both Defences
    These aren't the only defensive EVing styles. Even walls sometimes try to aim for important speed tiers of pokemon that kill them. For example, 88 Spe EVs on Defensive Rotom-A allow it to outrun Neutral Max Spe Sciz so that you can kill it before it kills you. Although this isn't really relevant to in-game as I said before, you shouldn't say that there are only three different styles. Instead, say something like: "in this guide I will be focusing on three different styles", if only to make it technically correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by TBR
    when EVing a Pokémon that has a far higher Def or SpDef that SpDef or Def respectively, you should simply run a 4 / 252 / 252 spread in order to help remedy the lower Defensive stat.
    I dispute this. While what you suggest is viable, maxing out the dominant defensive stat is recommended over it. You should concentrate on a pokemon's strengths, after all. Of course, you should have another pokemon to take hits from the other side of the spectrum. I suggest rewriting the paragraph in question to incorporate this information.

    Right, moving on, I have another technical error to point out:

    Quote Originally Posted by TBR
    Blissey has a Base HP of 255, which is the highest in the game. Therefore, investing heavily into HP would be unwise because she has a huge amount of it anyway. A more appropriate and beneficial method to use would be to run a 4 / 252 / 252 spread, with the 252s being your Defences. This will allow you to take more hits from both sides of the attacking spectrum rather than having an enormous HP, but lacking the defences to successfully back it up.
    24 HP / 252 / 232 is the ideal spread for Blissey, as it hits the Lefties +1 point. I know that you haven't covered that in the guide, although, knowing people's attitude to this kind of thing, they will skim through the guide, look for the pictures, think "ooh, that's a good Blissey spread", and end up using a second rate set of EVs. Just mention in the paragraph that the HP EVs allow it to hit the jump point for those who already know about them; you don't have to explain it.

    I also think that smogon's strategic pokedex is an immensely valuable resource for team building; I know how people on this forum hate smogon for no real reason, but without it I would never have become a successful rater, and it helps in finding movesets, too.

    Sorry for only pointing out problems without really providing any convenient solution, but this is important stuff. I highly doubt that any of it is made less so due to 5th gen.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlCario View Post
    Didn't it always do that?
    Nope, it used to heal half of the recipient's HP, now it heals for an amount equal to half of the caster's. Which just broke Blissey even more.


    Let me tell you now that, outside the BT, speed tiers don't matter shit in-game. I've probably said something contradictary to that before; if so I was wrong. Since in-game all of that AI's pokemon are of different levels, IVs, and EVs to yours, calculating speed tiers is basically a waste of time, unless you're in the BT. However, BT speed tiers are quite different to the ones you are talking about and require a different kind of attention. I think it would be best if you removed the entire quoted selection from the main section of the guide, as it is not relevant to in-game. I know that this suggestion will not go down well; however, you don't have to delete it completely. You can always enclose it in a spoiler at the bottom of the page for those enthusiatic readers who might want to learn more about EVing for situations where all pokemon are the same level, which is the only place speed tiers are necessary.
    I actually like that idea, I was unsure of posting it at all. I'll enclose it in a spoiler where it is now, so that people who really want to see them don't skim right over them.


    Instead, say something like: "in this guide I will be focusing on three different styles", if only to make it technically correct.
    Aha, nasty word choice by me there. Amusing how a couple of words can make so much difference. Noted.


    I dispute this. While what you suggest is viable, maxing out the dominant defensive stat is recommended over it. You should concentrate on a pokemon's strengths, after all. Of course, you should have another pokemon to take hits from the other side of the spectrum. I suggest rewriting the paragraph in question to incorporate this information.
    Hm... I'm not completely sure here. After all, people max out Blissey's Def and Steelix's SpDef all the time, and with good reason to do so imo. Switching out of every attacker, be it physical or special, who can play on a poor defensive stat is also pretty inefficient. I'll give this one a bit more consideration, I guess.


    24 HP / 252 / 232 is the ideal spread for Blissey, as it hits the Lefties +1 point. I know that you haven't covered that in the guide, although, knowing people's attitude to this kind of thing, they will skim through the guide, look for the pictures, think "ooh, that's a good Blissey spread", and end up using a second rate set of EVs. Just mention in the paragraph that the HP EVs allow it to hit the jump point for those who already know about them; you don't have to explain it.
    Yeah, I was aware of that at the time of writing but I didn't want to over-complicate things. That said, if people are jusj skimming over this then it's important to have the good stuff there. I'll get that in as briefly as I can then.

    I also think that smogon's strategic pokedex is an immensely valuable resource for team building; I know how people on this forum hate smogon for no real reason, but without it I would never have become a successful rater, and it helps in finding movesets, too.
    Agreed, and I only took it out because it hasn't been updated for 5th Gen yet, so there may be better movesets around. However, I guess it works as a good foundation so I'll probably stick it back in.

    Sorry for only pointing out problems without really providing any convenient solution, but this is important stuff. I highly doubt that any of it is made less so due to 5th gen.
    You were very helpful, actually, thanks a lot. I'll go make changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueRabbit View Post
    Nope, it used to heal half of the recipient's HP, now it heals for an amount equal to half of the caster's. Which just broke Blissey even more.
    ...

    Blissey -> Uberz.

    Hm... I'm not completely sure here. After all, people max out Blissey's Def and Steelix's SpDef all the time, and with good reason to do so imo. Switching out of every attacker, be it physical or special, who can play on a poor defensive stat is also pretty inefficient. I'll give this one a bit more consideration, I guess.
    Maxing out Blissey's Def, Lix's SpD, etc is fine and good, but take note that in each case their defences are stupidly disproportionate to each other. Lix's Def is so high that it can get to 400+ without investment, and Blissey's HP is so high that it can afford to invest heavily in both defences. Skarmory, on the other hand, will benefit from high EVs in Def more than in the case of SpDef (SpD Skarm is quite viable competitively, but mainly for the surprise factor) because its purpose is to take physical hits, not special ones. It's Def isn't as high as Lix's however, so it can't get away with no investment as easily. Basically, a pokemon who was obviously designed as a physical wall should not be taking special hits, and there's not really much point investing in SpD if that's the case. Often a pokemon will be required anyway to take hits from the less comfortable side of the spectrum, be it because it's your last one standing or whatever. This is the only reason why you invest in Lix's SpD at all; unlike Skarm it has meh typing so it can't rely on that. If you see what I mean.

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    Gimmicks can work, but they generally require a lot of support or have specific purposes which aren't needed in-game. (Examples include Rock Polish Tyranitar and mixed Metagross.)

    Don't feel you have to explain the minutae of your rate. At the same time, leaving a new user in the dark about why you're changing their stuff is a bad idea - try and go somewhere in the middle.
    156 Pokemon in the Unova dex. 6 of them are event Pokemon.
    151 Pokemon in the Kanto dex. 1 of them is an event Pokemon.

    When you see it...

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    you should include smogon's calc for getting the best out of your HP/Defense/Special Defense stat with EVs: http://users.smogon.com/X-Act/defense.html

    obviously EVs will only be used in the Tower and such, but this should still be included in my opinion if you're going to cover EVs anyway.

    /already mentioned on msn

  13. #13

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    Edited in. I've been using that thing for a while but never actually included it, haha. Thanks for posting here because I kinda forgot about that convo on Msn. >_>

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    im a fairly relaxed gamer on pokemon but thinking about getting more serious with the ev's and everything would you suggest for keeping track an ev spread sheet?
    Last edited by Tonitrius; 16th March 2011 at 2:00 PM.

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    agree with Tonitrius, what would you suggest for at least tracking EVs?
    White FC: 2881 3968 7474

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    Well I use a tally when I EV train any pokemon. It's easy to keep track of that way.
    #411

  17. #17
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    I have some issues with part 1 of this guide.

    Firstly:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueRabbit View Post
    The AI uses Hax to its advantage.
    For those of you who don't know, Hax refers to the unfair ability that the AI has to activate the secondary effects of moves. For example, Water Pulse's 20% confuse rate may seem more like 40% or even 50% for the AI. Additionally, moves like Double Team will seem to work for the opponent but not your and OHKO moves will seem far too accurate where the opposition is concerned. Moves like Substitute are excellent remedies for this issue, as they will block the added effects of moves so that you can't be affected by them. Alternatively, fast and powerful Sweepers can outspeed and KO the opposition before they can begin haxing you to death. Remember that moves like Aerial Ace are also far more viable in-game thanks to evasion modifiers.
    I hear this all the time, but I have never once seen someone actually gather some in-game statistics to prove that the AI is somehow inherently luckier than the player is. If you can show me some statistics that show me that the AI abuses hax, then great, but as it is, it just sounds like hearsay.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueRabbit View Post
    Status inducing moves.
    Moves such as Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp will force Status Effects to be induced on your opponent. This will help you because it disadvantages your opponent massively, giving you an easier time setting up. On a more defensive moveset, you should consider using these sort of moves carefully, as they can massively benefit you or hinder you, depending on how appropriate your choice. Be aware that a very viable tactic in-game, however, is to simply destroy your opponent quickly. For this reason, it is generally recommended that you use very few Status-Inducing moves on your team, and on the bulkiest members if possible when there are few better options available.
    I feel that the advice of "use very few status moves" is only relevant if you're overlevelled. If you're underlevelled, you're often slower and frailer than your opponents, and paralysis, sleep and burn can suddenly become very helpful in improving your survivability. If you're overlevelled, then I can see your point - but then, why would you need a guide if you're destroying everything in one hit with your overlevelled doombringers?


    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueRabbit View Post
    What not to use.
    While there are a great number of moves that are usable, some should be avoided as much as possible. They are as follows.

    Hyper Beam and Hyper Beam-esque moves.
    These moves are incredibly powerful, but they leave you completely immobile next turn. You cannot use items, you cannot switch, and you cannot attack during this time. In virtually every case, you can use two turns more productively, and so these moves should always be avoided. The moves are Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Rock Wrecker, and Roar of Time. Additionally, First Turn charge moves should be avoided for the same reason. They are Dive, Dig, Fly, Razor Wind, Sky Attack, Skull Bash, Solarbeam, and Shadow Force. Focus Punch is not one of these moves.
    This is probably the paragraph I have the biggest problem with. I don't use Hyper Beam etc. often, but if you're playing with the Shift battle style, it can be extremely helpful to fire off a super-powerful move to finish your opponent, then switch out to a new Pokémon when prompted to. Frenzy Plant was actually very good on my Meganium in HG, because the next most powerful Grass move was either Energy Ball or Petal Dance, which were only just above half Frenzy Plant's power.

    Dive, Dig, Fly and Shadow Force are great moves in-game. You already mention earlier in the guide that your opponent is hardly ever going to switch, so with that in mind, what's the drawback in using these moves? Sure, you could get hit by the occasional Earthquake or Twister, but as long as you're careful, it's not a problem. Dig in particular is a powerful 80 power Ground-type move that you get before the 4th gym, has a wide learn-base, and won't be outmatched in power as far as Ground-type moves go for most Pokémon until after the Elite Four!

    To top it all off, you seem to suggest that Focus Punch is a better move for in-game use than any of the above. It's difficult enough to predict what the AI's going to do as it is, but to have to guess when they don't attack (which isn't often by the time one of your Pokémon learns Focus Punch) and risk not hitting them at all if you guess wrong just seems like too big a price to pay.


    Thanks for reading!
    100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
    Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

  18. #18

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    Ah I was going to do a team building guide but someone did already XD

    If I can add to the conversation, when building your team, avoid having 2 of one type on your team. (ex: having two grass types) unless they are duo types. Always have one of each type.

    Also I would recommend (and this is just me) having a ghost, psychic and/or dark type on your team. Especially the first two types since you are going to need them for the Elite 4.

    Speaking of the Elite 4, know what type of pokemon they will be using. I recommend having pokemon that can counter attack theirs.
    岩根雅明=♡

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    @totalpotato

    its obvious the ai has higher % on status based moves it does not need to be proven go to the battle tower its unbelievable!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordchrome View Post
    @totalpotato

    its obvious the ai has higher % on status based moves it does not need to be proven go to the battle tower its unbelievable!
    I played the Battle Factory a heck of a lot in the 4th gen, and for every time I thought "What? No way! How the heck did I lose that one?", there was another time I thought "Man, I was ridiculously lucky to get out of that one alive".
    100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
    Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    I hear this all the time, but I have never once seen someone actually gather some in-game statistics to prove that the AI is somehow inherently luckier than the player is. If you can show me some statistics that show me that the AI abuses hax, then great, but as it is, it just sounds like hearsay.
    I was surprised that no-one picked up on this sooner, tbh. It is true that there are no known figures or statistics relating to hax, since as far as I know it's never been looked into so really the whole thing is, to an extent, luck. But I can only believe in the idea of luck so far. The kind of things I hear and experience so often from my chats with other IGRMTers are simply ridiculous. Working out numbers it's not uncommon for the AI to hit circumstances that have a several-thousand to one chance. While it is true (as you mentioned in your last post itt) that the player occasionally gets lucky, I find it completely undeniable that the AI does something to increase the chance of otherwise incredibly unlikely outcomes, even if they are in your favour. I feel that a player must be ready for these times, whether or not they believe in them.


    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    I feel that the advice of "use very few status moves" is only relevant if you're overlevelled. If you're underlevelled, you're often slower and frailer than your opponents, and paralysis, sleep and burn can suddenly become very helpful in improving your survivability. If you're overlevelled, then I can see your point - but then, why would you need a guide if you're destroying everything in one hit with your overlevelled doombringers?
    Oh, I do agree with you here, and I may edit in a note about level vs move usage. The reason why I am generalising is because you simply can't know how the levels of your Pokémon will look relative to the levels of the AI's Pokémon. When planning a moveset it's almost impossible to take into consideration the idea of "when I am at x location, I plan to have my Pokémon at y levels higher or lower than that of the AI's". So therefore, I write this under the assumption of the maker's team being of slightly higher level than the AI's, and therefore needing less status support. It's simply inefficient to use status moves for the most part anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    This is probably the paragraph I have the biggest problem with. I don't use Hyper Beam etc. often, but if you're playing with the Shift battle style, it can be extremely helpful to fire off a super-powerful move to finish your opponent, then switch out to a new Pokémon when prompted to. Frenzy Plant was actually very good on my Meganium in HG, because the next most powerful Grass move was either Energy Ball or Petal Dance, which were only just above half Frenzy Plant's power.
    As far as I know, the ability to switch is disabled during the Shift battle style if you are in a recharge turn. Even if it's not, there's still an argument for most Pokémon that there are better uses for that moveslot available.


    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    Dive, Dig, Fly and Shadow Force are great moves in-game. You already mention earlier in the guide that your opponent is hardly ever going to switch, so with that in mind, what's the drawback in using these moves? Sure, you could get hit by the occasional Earthquake or Twister, but as long as you're careful, it's not a problem. Dig in particular is a powerful 80 power Ground-type move that you get before the 4th gym, has a wide learn-base, and won't be outmatched in power as far as Ground-type moves go for most Pokémon until after the Elite Four!
    The drawback of these moves is inefficiency. Why use Dig (especially now that TMs are infinite) when you can use Earthquake instead? With Dig, you are firing off a total of 80 base power over two turns. In the same time, you could be hitting with 200 over two turns with Earthquake. It's simply inefficient. The same argument applies to more or less all two-turn moves; Waterfall to Dive, and Aerial Ace or Acrobatics to Fly. That said, Shadow Force is one of very few decent physical Ghost moves and would be usable if, imo, Giratina didn't have a better use for its moveslot due to PP issues and a somewhat mediocre effect given that it only relates to Protect and Detect iirc. Not to mention that, again, Shadow Claw hits harder over two turns. As this guide is intended to help a maker plan their final team, not their team at x point in the game (for example, at the E4), I will admit that I did not consider the availability of moves, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    To top it all off, you seem to suggest that Focus Punch is a better move for in-game use than any of the above. It's difficult enough to predict what the AI's going to do as it is, but to have to guess when they don't attack (which isn't often by the time one of your Pokémon learns Focus Punch) and risk not hitting them at all if you guess wrong just seems like too big a price to pay.
    I find Focus Punch to be better for the simple reason that it is not a two-turn move. That, and the fact that Substitute is available. Imo all Focus Punchers simply need Substitute for this very reason; it virtually guarantees you at least one use of Focus Punch, possibly more if the AI fails to break it. Substitute isn't the only move that works for this; SporePunch Breloom, for example, works wonderfully as it can stop the AI from using a damaging move. You are correct in that it's a risky move under the assumption that no precautions have been taken to ensure its success, but I would hope that such precautions would be used in conjunction with this move to negate that risk.


    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    Thanks for reading!
    Same to you~


    Quote Originally Posted by -Silver- View Post
    If I can add to the conversation, when building your team, avoid having 2 of one type on your team. (ex: having two grass types) unless they are duo types. Always have one of each type.
    I disagree to an extent. I have found times where two of the same types has been just what a team needs to balance out its synergy. True, it's not the best synergistically, but often I feel people build a long way into a team and then come along a snag only fixable by using duplicate types. I'm going to leave it as it is to avoid people potentially making more weaknesses for themselves by thinking that there are 'rules' regarding what can and cannot be used in a team in terms of type.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Silver- View Post
    Also I would recommend (and this is just me) having a ghost, psychic and/or dark type on your team. Especially the first two types since you are going to need them for the Elite 4.
    See the second part of the argument above. I don't like the idea of limiting types.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Silver- View Post
    Speaking of the Elite 4, know what type of pokemon they will be using. I recommend having pokemon that can counter attack theirs.
    The game doesn't end upon facing the elite four. Most people will continue playing afterwards for the sake of training up their teams and just getting the most out of the game. I don't think that designing your team around a few trainers will help you get the most enjoyment from the team, especially if there are other Pokémon you would rather be using.

    Thanks for the input.

  22. #22
    Join Date
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    So is this guide designed to help someone build an in-game team for the Champion, the Battle Subway, or something else? I admit that a lot of what I've written doesn't make a lot of sense if the guide is purely focused towards an end-game strategy, but I assumed that people would come to this forum if they were looking for pre-Elite Four help too.
    100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
    Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

  23. #23
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    In-Game counts for more than the Champion. This guide is for in-game. The Battle Subway guide has yet to be written.

  24. #24
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    Mar 2011
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    Thanks for the post!

    Btw if it hadn't been posted already

    Modest nature great for sp atk sweep
    My youtube channel

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Xanpakuto

    I make playthroughs of all different types of games so come and check it out! Currently I'm making a playthrough of Oblivion


    Join the Serebii's Naruto club :P

    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=539588

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueRabbit View Post
    The drawback of these moves is inefficiency. Why use Dig (especially now that TMs are infinite) when you can use Earthquake instead? With Dig, you are firing off a total of 80 base power over two turns. In the same time, you could be hitting with 200 over two turns with Earthquake. It's simply inefficient. The same argument applies to more or less all two-turn moves; Waterfall to Dive, and Aerial Ace or Acrobatics to Fly.
    A turn in which you are not hit might as well not be a turn at all. The AI almost never switches, and rarely boosts, so for all practical purposes in-game Dig, Fly, and Dive have few drawbacks. (Paralysis and Confusion give them big problems). Indeed, if your opponent is Poisoned or Burned, or using low PP attacks, the semi-invulnerability moves can be an advantage.

    And don't forget multiples. You can get one Pokemon out of the way, while the other uses a move that targets all Pokemon.

    That said, Fly's the only one I'd really use. I don't like Acrobatics because I like having items. (That said, Sharp Beak Fly falls just short of no item Acrobatics, and Life Orb and Choice Band aren't found outside the Battle Subway.) Not much gets Brave Bird, and other physical flying attacks are weak.

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