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Thread: Ash's Pokémon By Win Rate

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    Default Ash's Pokémon By Win Rate

    Hey everyone. Last year there was this online chart that displayed Ash's Pokémon by win rate (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...89/236/5ce.jpg). The thing is that there are many issues with it. For 1 it only takes "official battles" (GYM+League+BF+WC) into account. 2nd some of its stats are factually wrong like Heracross's should be 40% (w: Gary's Magmar, Nando's Kriketune; l: Gary's Blastoise, Spencer's Venasaur, Tobias's Darkrai). 3rd it counts losses and draws as equivalent since Bulbasaur's official record is 5-2-2 yet it's win rate is a 56% instead of a 78% or atleast a 64% (if we equate 5-2-2 to 7-4-0). Finally it doesn't take context into account ("cleaness" of the win/loss).

    For fun this is what the Kalos Pokémon's end of region win rate would look like when using the same methodology as that chart:

    Greninja (A-G): 73% (8-3-0) or 77% (10-3-0) assuming we accepted the implication that A-G swept Titus's entire team though I'm guessing the person who made that chart wouldn't have since I believe they only counted onscreen wins.
    Kalos Pikachu: 67% (10-5-0)
    Hawlucha: 50% (6-6-0)
    Talonflame: 41% (7-9-1)
    Goodra: 33% (1-1-1)
    Noivern: 0% (0-1-1)

    It should be apparent by this point how flawed such a system is. For example if we define the equality 0-0-1 = 1-1-0 = 1-1 then the values become:

    Greninja: 73% (8-3) or 77% (10-3)
    Kalos Pikachu: 67% (10-5)
    Goodra: 50% (2-2)
    Hawlucha: 50% (6-6)
    Talonflame: 44% (8-10)
    Noivern: 33% (1-2)

    Now let's count all of their trainer battles:

    Kalos Pikachu: 77% (20-6-0)
    Greninja: 70% (16-7) or 72% (18-7)
    Goodra: 60% (3-2)
    Talonflame: 50% (10-10)
    Hawlucha: 50% (9-9)
    Noivern: 43% (3-4)

    Also if we discount Greninja's "non-clean" losses against Sceptile and Avalugg (which were more on Ash than him) then his clean win rate becomes
    76% (16-5) or 78% (18-5).

    I'll now give my own stats for win rates of "clean" trainer battles (including individual battles apart of larger battles that may not have finished clean overall) for Ash's Pokémon (when commanded by Ash).

    0. Pikachu 63% (77-43-5 = 82-48)
    1. Bulbasaur 70% (12-4-2 = 14-6)
    2. Charizard 86% (18-3)
    3. Squirtle 58% (7-5)
    4. Kingler 71% (5-2)
    5. Muk 50% (1-1)
    6. Tauros 43% (2-3-1 = 3-4)
    7. Snorlax 73% (8-3)
    8. Heracross 43% (3-4)
    9. Bayleef 60% (6-4)
    10. Quilava 56% (9-7-1 = 10-8)
    11. Totodile 40% (4-6)
    12. Noctowl 50% (3-3)
    13. Donphan 43% (3-4)
    14. Swellow 58% (10-7-1 = 11-8)
    15. Sceptile 48% (10-11) though 75% (3-1) as a Sceptile
    16. Corphish 56% (9-7-1 = 10-8)
    17. Torkoal 33% (3-7-1 = 4-8)
    18. Glalie 63% (3-1-2 = 5-3)
    19. Staraptor 40% (6-9)
    20. Torterra 33% (6-12)
    21. (Blaze) Infernape 73% (16-6) and 83% (5-1) as an Infernape
    22. Buizel 43% (5-7-1 = 6-8)
    23. Gliscor 30% (2-6-1 = 3-7)
    24. Gible 50% (2-2)
    25. Unfezzant 40% (2-3)
    26. Oshawatt 42% (4-6-1 = 5-7)
    27. Pignite 50% (8-8-1 = 9-9)
    28. Snivy 44% (4-5)
    29. Scraggy 55% (4-3-2 = 6-5)
    30. Leavanny 57% (4-3)
    31. Palpitoad 57% (3-2-1 = 4-3)
    32. Boldore 40% (2-3)
    33. Krookodile 80% (4-1) and 100% (3-0) as a Krookodile
    34. (Ash-)Greninja 78% (18-5)
    35. Taloneflame 50% (9-9-1 = 10-10)
    36. Hawlucha 50% (9-9)
    37. Goodra 60% (2-1-1 = 3-2)
    38. Noivern 43% (2-3-1 = 3-4)

    In case anyone’s interested:

    Mean: 53%
    Median: 50%
    Mode: 43% and 50%
    Lower Quartile: 43%
    Upper Quartile: 60%
    Standard Deviation: 14%

    Ranked:

    0. Charizard
    1. Krookodile
    2. (Ash-)Greninja
    3. (Blaze) Infernape
    4. Snorlax
    5. Kingler
    6. Bulbasaur
    7. Pikachu
    8. Glalie
    9. Bayleef
    10. Goodra
    11. Squirtle
    12. Swellow
    13. Leavanny
    14. Palpitoad
    15. Corphish
    16. Quilava
    17. Scraggy
    18. Talonflame
    19. Hawlucha
    20. Pignite
    21. Noctowl
    22. Gible
    23. Muk
    24. Sceptile
    25. Snivy
    26. Buizel
    27. Heracross
    28. Donphan
    29. Tauros
    30. Noivern
    31. Oshawatt
    32. Totodile
    33. Boldore
    34. Staraptor
    35. Unfezzant
    36. Torterra
    37. Torkoal
    38. Gliscor

    Remember that this list is only direct win ratio (for clean battles) and doesn't take into account opponent quality or improvement over time. Also I didn't include wild Pokémon battles for obvious reasons though for example a battle like Goodra vs Florges could debatably count since it was integral to Goodra's plot and Ash very explicitly only provided moral support so if you think it should count then Goodra's win rate becomes 67% (4-2). This list may not be perfect though it's definitely closer to the truth than that chart everyone keeps quoting. Let me know if you perceive any discrepancies in my list and I'll either explain why I didn't count certain results or I'll amend the list.

    A sizeable discrepancy that I'm guessing most of you will point out is Charizard's record so I'll explain myself in advanced for this case. See here's the issue. Charizard's actual record is 18-7-0. Now 2 of those losses were because Charizard refused to battle against Rydon in vs Blaine 1 and Ritchie's Pikachu in the IL TOP 16. Such losses aren't representative of Charizard's strength so they can't really count. Then we have the Dusclops loss which was because Ash called the wrong move therefore more Ash's shortcoming than Charizard's. Finally we have the battle it lost against Erika's Gloom (while a Charmander) because of DEM (it lost because Gloom gave off some horrendous smell and not even to an actual move, and the only way to stop Gloom from producing the smell was to be friends with it). Frankly the only 3 legitimate trainer battle losses Charizard has had were against Poliwrath in the first battle in the Charizard Chills episode (yes it wasn't listening to Ash then but it was still actively trying to win), Drake's Dragonite and Harrison's Blaziken making its actual clean record 18-3-0.

    It just irritates me that that misinformative chart gets spread around the community like its accurate so I think with all of your help we could make a much more reliable chart.

    By Xenon Blue: http://www.serebiiforums.com/attachm...9&d=1507252188

    EDIT: here's another list that only takes official (League Sanctioned + Battle Frontier) battles into consideration without accounting for "cleaness". I'm still making an exception for Charizard's "loss by napping" to Blaine's Rydon and Ritchie's Pikachu. Also I'm still not counting Sceptile vs Regirock for obvious reasons. Individual results from overall unfinished battles (e.g. Ash vs Erika) will count. Also note that events like Whirl Cup and Don Tournaments will NOT count as such events don't guarantee a lower bound of quality.

    1. Pikachu 62% (57-34-3 = 60-37)
    2. Bulbasaur 58% (5-3-2 = 7-5)
    3. Charizard 73% (11-4)
    4. Squirtle 60% (6-4)
    5. Kingler 80% (4-1)
    6. Muk 50% (1-1)
    7. Tauros 33% (1-3-1 = 2-4)
    8. Snorlax 73% (8-3)
    9. Heracross 40% (2-3)
    10. Bayleef 50% (4-4)
    11. Quilava 57% (7-5-1 = 8-6)
    12. Totodile 20% (1-4)
    13. Noctowl 50% (3-3)
    14. Donphan 50% (3-3)
    15. Swellow 59% (9-6-1 = 10-7)
    16. Sceptile 50% (9-9)
    17. Corphish 63% (11-6-1 = 12-7)
    18. Torkoal 30% (2-6-1 = 3-7)
    19. Glalie 63% (3-1-2 = 5-3)
    20. Staraptor 50% (5-5)
    21. Torterra 44% (4-5)
    22. (Blaze) Infernape 85% (11-2)
    23. Buizel 56% (4-3-1)
    24. Gliscor 50% (2-2)
    25. Gible 67% (2-1)
    26. Unfezzant 50% (2-2)
    27. Oshawatt 43% (2-3-1 = 3-4)
    28. Pignite 55% (6-5)
    29. Snivy 25% (1-3)
    30. Scraggy 67% (2-1)
    31. Leavanny 50% (3-3)
    32. Palpitoad 40% (1-2-1 = 2-3)
    33. Boldore 33% (1-2)
    34. Krookodile 75% (3-1)
    35. (Ash-)Greninja 77% (10-3)
    36. Talonflame 44% (7-9-1= 8-10)
    37. Hawlucha 50% (6-6)
    38. Goodra 50% (1-1-1 = 2-2)
    39. Noivern 33% (0-1-1 = 1-2)

    Ranked:

    1. (Blaze) Infernape
    2. Kingler
    3. (Ash-)Greninja
    4. Krookodile
    5. Charizard
    6. Snorlax
    7. Gible
    8. Scraggy
    9. Corphish
    10. Glalie
    11. Pikachu
    12. Squirtle
    13. Swellow
    14. Bulbasaur
    15. Quilava
    16. Buizel
    17. Pignite
    18. Sceptile
    19. Hawlucha
    20. Staraptor
    21. Bayleef
    22. Noctowl
    23. Donphan
    24. Leavanny
    25. Gliscor
    26. Unfezzant
    27. Goodra
    28. Muk
    29. Talonflame
    30. Torterra
    31. Oshawatt
    32. Heracross
    33. Palpitoad
    34. Tauros
    35. Boldore
    36. Noivern
    37. Torkoal
    38. Snivy
    39. Totodile

    Feel free to ask me any questions regarding either of my lists.
    Last edited by Genaller; 16th October 2017 at 12:25 PM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    My Ash Pokémon win rates by Xenon Blue: http://www.serebiiforums.com/attachm...9&d=1507252188

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    You were right not to include Goodra vs Florges. It was basically a wild battle... since Florges didn't had a trainer. But... you have to only count battles that are officially acknowledged by the Pokemon League (Thus League Battles and Gym Battles.... but also the Battle Frontier, Orange Islands and other Tournaments). Thus... Greninja vs Sceptile or Greninja vs Charizard outside the leagues don't count (Else we can count every training battles with Brock or every time Team Rocket were blasted away)... while Greninja vs Avalugg does count. And i think its also a good idea to split Base Greninja's and Ash-Greninjas win/losses... since Greninja with the form is a different Greninja (Power wise) and thus has a different win/loss ratio than Base Greninja.

    Every Offical battle loss does count, just like every win counts... no matter how you achieve it... thus Charizard losing due to not listening counts since they were called a loss by a official referee. (Else we can say Iris didn't really defeat Dawn since Dragonite didn't listen... but hey... official battle... thus it does count).

    We can also argue that the Charizard vs Articuno win doesn't count in Charizards win/loss ratio... since it was a wild Pokemon... while being commanded by a trainer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickdt View Post
    You were right not to include Goodra vs Florges. It was basically a wild battle... since Florges didn't had a trainer. But... you have to only count battles that are officially acknowledged by the Pokemon League (Thus League Battles and Gym Battles.... but also the Battle Frontier, Orange Islands and other Tournaments). Thus... Greninja vs Sceptile or Greninja vs Charizard outside the leagues don't count (Else we can count every training battles with Brock or every time Team Rocket were blasted away)... while Greninja vs Avalugg does count. And i think its also a good idea to split Base Greninja's and Ash-Greninjas win/losses... since Greninja with the form is a different Greninja (Power wise) and thus has a different win/loss ratio than Base Greninja.

    Every Offical battle loss does count, just like every win counts... no matter how you achieve it... thus Charizard losing due to not listening counts since they were called a loss by a official referee. (Else we can say Iris didn't really defeat Dawn since Dragonite didn't listen... but hey... official battle... thus it does count).

    We can also argue that the Charizard vs Articuno win doesn't count in Charizards win/loss ratio... since it was a wild Pokemon... while being commanded by a trainer.
    Well TRio battles can never count because they're far too inconsistent. Also battles without a decisive result obviously wouldn't count. Well I did count training battles with a decisive conclusion (e.g. Piplup vs Chimchar; Dawn vs Ash). Well why should only "official battles" count? I understand that the rationale for using PL sanctioned battles is that we're guaranteed a lower bound when it comes to quality of opponents but then we have battles like Ash vs Paul lake acuity which has a far superior battle quality to that of most "official battles". I do get your concerns about counting stuff like Charizard wrecking a noob's Pidgey, Ratatta and Chikorita though. Also yes a battle like Dragonite vs Mamoswine would hypothetically count in my system since Dragonite was atleast actively trying to win. Similarly I counted Charizard vs Poliwrath 1 because while Charizard didn't listen to Ash he was actively trying to win. Charizard; however, was NOT trying to win against Rydon or Pikachu hence I didn't count those battles. The Gloom DEM and Dusclops case probably should be counted if context is to be completely ignored as should a battle like Greninja/A-G vs Avalugg. In this case Charizard's record should be 18-5-0 (78%) and Greninja's/A-AG's record should be 18-7-0 (72%). If we were to split A-G and non A-G results then it would go A-G 63% (5-3-0) and Greninja 76% (13-4-0). Though I think we should keep a unified record since the A-G is Greninja's ability so if we made an exception here we'd also have to make 1 for Infernape and Blaze Infernape.

    Eh it should count since Articuno was commanded by a Frontier Brain lvl trainer.

    Another reason why many would only want to use official battles is because it takes much less time to compile the data than it would for each individual trainer battle but that's exactly what I've done in this case. Alright maybe I could do this. I'll add another list that's only based on official battles and people can pick whichever list they find more reliable/valid.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    My Ash Pokémon win rates by Xenon Blue: http://www.serebiiforums.com/attachm...9&d=1507252188

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickdt View Post
    You were right not to include Goodra vs Florges. It was basically a wild battle... since Florges didn't had a trainer. But... you have to only count battles that are officially acknowledged by the Pokemon League (Thus League Battles and Gym Battles.... but also the Battle Frontier, Orange Islands and other Tournaments). Thus... Greninja vs Sceptile or Greninja vs Charizard outside the leagues don't count (Else we can count every training battles with Brock or every time Team Rocket were blasted away)... while Greninja vs Avalugg does count. And i think its also a good idea to split Base Greninja's and Ash-Greninjas win/losses... since Greninja with the form is a different Greninja (Power wise) and thus has a different win/loss ratio than Base Greninja.

    Every Offical battle loss does count, just like every win counts... no matter how you achieve it... thus Charizard losing due to not listening counts since they were called a loss by a official referee. (Else we can say Iris didn't really defeat Dawn since Dragonite didn't listen... but hey... official battle... thus it does count).

    We can also argue that the Charizard vs Articuno win doesn't count in Charizards win/loss ratio... since it was a wild Pokemon... while being commanded by a trainer.
    Why shouldn't those count??? Every battle should count, they are still battles. Greninja vs Sceptile and Charizard outside the League obviously counts. If anything, TR battles should be excluded because they pretty much regularly happen. And Greninja and Ash-Greninja are the same entity- their win percentage should count altogether.
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 17th January 2017 at 1:48 AM.
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    I know lots of people call Ash a loser who loses all the time (I can't see it), but he won way more on screen than he lost battles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by satoharupika View Post
    I know lots of people call Ash a loser who loses all the time (I can't see it), but he won way more on screen than he lost battles.
    But he hardly has many accomplishments so far. He always fails to win a League. His primary goal is to win a League, otherwise he would have never bothered to collect 8 badges and compete in a League in every region he has travelled upto Kalos. The message of losing is OK has been overdone to death honestly in the anime.
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 17th January 2017 at 1:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    But he hardly has many accomplishments so far. He always fails to win a League. His primary goal is to win a League, otherwise he would have never bothered to collect 8 badges and complete in a League in every region he has travelled upto Kalos. The message of losing is OK has been overdone to death honestly in the anime.
    Losing the League doesn't make him a loser. Just because the main protagonist loses, it doesn't mean the anime is trying to teach them a message. It's realistic and it's life. Ash is just one of the many who lost the League many times. He's fortunate enough to even make it to the Finals.
    ~Certified Alan Apologist~
    Pikachu deserves the main character treatment he rightfully earned!

    (Credit goes to Satomine Night)
    Introducing Ash's next traveling companions: The enigmatic Bookworm & insightful Daydreamer
    Mallow-Lillie friendship duo; a bond so close, even the butler ships it!
    -Lady Lana: Full time big sister, part time kickasser
    -Queen Lillie and her duchess Vulpix will stick together, even without the initial intimacy
    -SM Ash will get character development and strives to be the best Ash like no Ash ever was...

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    A win rate would count draws and losses as the same thing.
    Having traveled through the Kanto (x2), Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova and Kalos regions, plus the Orange & Decolore Islands, competing in six regional Pokémon League competitions, winning the Orange League, defeating the Kanto Battle Frontier, seeing/ meeting each of the rare and powerful Legendary/ Mythical Pokémon, some on numerous occasions, and continually fighting vigilantly against six villainous teams, Ash has apparently now decided to go to school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by satoharupika View Post
    Losing the League doesn't make him a loser. Just because the main protagonist loses, it doesn't mean the anime is trying to teach them a message. It's realistic and it's life. Ash is just one of the many who lost the League many times. He's fortunate enough to even make it to the Finals.
    I don't know what you are taking about. If he doesn't win a League, then how will he make a significant progress towards a Pokemon Master? Winning a League is his primary step towards that- it has been shown that his primary goal in a region is to win a League. That's why he bothers to collect 8 badges and compete in a League in every region. Before the Kalos League, he said something like, 'my goal is to become a Pokemon Master, and so I've got to win this League'. But for the sake of promoting the upcoming games, the writers always want to shift him to the upcoming region, and so, Ash keeps losing Leagues. The same circle goes on and on in every region. Sigh!

    Anyway that's off topic. I think that almost every battle other than TR battles should count in every one of Ash's Pokemon's win rate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    I don't know what you are taking about. If he doesn't win a League, then how will he make a significant progress towards a Pokemon Master? Winning a League is his primary step towards that- it has been shown that his primary goal in a region is to win a League. That's why he bothers to collect 8 badges and compete in a League in every region. Before the Kalos League, he said something like, 'my goal is to become a Pokemon Master, and so I've got to win this League'. But for the sake of promoting the upcoming games, the writers always want to shift him to the upcoming region, and so, Ash keeps losing Leagues. The same circle goes on and on in every region. Sigh!
    Ash has shown progression in getting better in his ranks at the League but Pokémon Master is such a vague goal in general. He'll win a League whenever the writers finally let him.

    Anyway that's off topic. I think that almost every battle other than TR battles should count in every one of Ash's Pokemon's win rate.
    THe TRio and their Grunts are curbstomps. It's be completely different if he defeated Giovanni. And what about his wins in the movies? Do they count as well?
    ~Certified Alan Apologist~
    Pikachu deserves the main character treatment he rightfully earned!

    (Credit goes to Satomine Night)
    Introducing Ash's next traveling companions: The enigmatic Bookworm & insightful Daydreamer
    Mallow-Lillie friendship duo; a bond so close, even the butler ships it!
    -Lady Lana: Full time big sister, part time kickasser
    -Queen Lillie and her duchess Vulpix will stick together, even without the initial intimacy
    -SM Ash will get character development and strives to be the best Ash like no Ash ever was...

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    Quote Originally Posted by satoharupika View Post
    Ash has shown progression in getting better in his ranks at the League but Pokémon Master is such a vague goal in general. He'll win a League whenever the writers finally let him.
    I wonder whether that day will ever come.
    THe TRio and their Grunts are curbstomps. It's be completely different if he defeated Giovanni. And what about his wins in the movies? Do they count as well?
    TR battles happen regularly, so those shouldn't count in my opinion. Movies are generally non-canon, so I wonder whether wins in movies should count or not, like Noivern's win over Bunnelby in the Volcanion movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattySadler View Post
    A win rate would count draws and losses as the same thing.
    No it really doesn't. Win: KOing an opposing Pokémon. Loss: Being KOed by an opposing Pokémon. Draw: KOing an opposing Pokémon "and" Being KOed by an opposing Pokémon. Therefore Draw = Win "and" Loss (and is being used in a pure logic context). Also practically speaking it's ludicrous to consider a record of 5-1-4 the same as a record of 5-4-1.
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    Can you rank them?

    Win rates are helpful, but can be spurious at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Can you rank them?

    Win rates are helpful, but can be spurious at times.
    I completely agree that win rates alone can't determine how Ash's Pokémon rank compared to their peers. It just irritates me when people use that invalid chart that I linked above as an excuse to justify Pokémon X > Pokémon Y as a matter of fact so I decided that it would be best to atleast construct a more accurate list. I made 2 lists. 1 is an overall list that takes "cleaness" into account and the other is an "official battle" list that doesn't take "cleaness" into account for the most part. If you would like me to explain (a) particular result(s) or if you find something questionable about either of my methodologies, please let me know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    I completely agree that win rates alone can't determine how Ash's Pokémon rank compared to their peers. It just irritates me when people use that invalid chart that I linked above as an excuse to justify Pokémon X > Pokémon Y as a matter of fact so I decided that it would be best to atleast construct a more accurate list. I made 2 lists. 1 is an overall list that takes "cleaness" into account and the other is an "official battle" list that doesn't take "cleaness" into account for the most part. If you would like me to explain (a) particular result(s) or if you find something questionable about either of my methodologies, please let me know.
    Can you rank them from highest to lowest rate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    While shouldn't those count??? Every battle should count, they are still battles. Greninja vs Sceptile and Charizard outside the League obviously counts. If anything, TR battles should be excluded because they pretty much regularly happen. And Greninja and Ash-Greninja are the same entity- their win percentage should count altogether.
    They don't count in the OFFICIAL win/loss ratio, else Pikachu has a far lower amount of win/loss ratio than it now has. Thus... Officially... only League, Gyms and offical Tournaments count. Since... if we do count the non-official... its unfair to a Pokemon that loses.. compared to a Pokemon that is caught later. For example... Caterpie lost to Pidgeotto... but Pidgeotto was still caught. Is that a win for Caterpie then? No it isn't. Or when Ash caught Krabby. Pikachu was out of its Pokeball. Is it a win for Pikachu because it was outside of his Pokeball. You see.. including non-official battles is giving the wrong measurments and thus training battles (Which basically Charizard vs Greninja was... since they wanted to draw out the Ash-Greninja power)... are not to be included.

    But still... i feel like this discussion is kinda redundant... since everyone uses another method to decide win/loss ratio.
    Last edited by nickdt; 16th January 2017 at 6:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Can you rank them from highest to lowest rate?
    Alright I've ranked both of my lists.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    My Ash Pokémon win rates by Xenon Blue: http://www.serebiiforums.com/attachm...9&d=1507252188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    No it really doesn't. Win: KOing an opposing Pokémon. Loss: Being KOed by an opposing Pokémon. Draw: KOing an opposing Pokémon "and" Being KOed by an opposing Pokémon. Therefore Draw = Win "and" Loss (and is being used in a pure logic context). Also practically speaking it's ludicrous to consider a record of 5-1-4 the same as a record of 5-4-1.
    A WIN rate would tally the number of WINs out of the total number battles. It literally just covers the amount of wins out of the total number of battles.

    Using a non-Pokemon example, Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has managed 1,149 competitive football (soccer) matches. He has WON 660, drawn 267 and lost 222, meaning he has WON 57.44% of all of his competitive matches.
    Having traveled through the Kanto (x2), Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova and Kalos regions, plus the Orange & Decolore Islands, competing in six regional Pokémon League competitions, winning the Orange League, defeating the Kanto Battle Frontier, seeing/ meeting each of the rare and powerful Legendary/ Mythical Pokémon, some on numerous occasions, and continually fighting vigilantly against six villainous teams, Ash has apparently now decided to go to school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattySadler View Post
    A WIN rate would tally the number of WINs out of the total number battles. It literally just covers the amount of wins out of the total number of battles.

    Using a non-Pokemon example, Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has managed 1,149 competitive football (soccer) matches. He has WON 660, drawn 267 and lost 222, meaning he has WON 57.44% of all of his competitive matches.
    Cool. I'm not going to get into an epistemic debate about the word "win" but I'll just say that you can't equate "winning" the way you're doing in your example (equating collective wins to individual wins). Also the TEAM has that win percentage not the manager. What you described is more similar to how we should construct a win rate for Ash and not his Pokémon. In the Pokémon world "win" is defined as KOing an opposing Pokémon and "loss" is defined as being KOed by an opposing Pokémon. Based on the above definitions, it's perfectly valid to consider "draw" as "win" and "loss" at the individual battle lvl. There is a mathematical justifaction for this terminology in this context involving the concepts of infinite limits and asymptotes but I'm not particularly interested in explaining the technical aspects of this justification and I doubt you're interested in reading about it. Also just because a certain definition of a word is considered standard convention in many contexts doesn't mean that it is the only valid definition of said word. If you can't accept this, then let's just agree to disagree.

    EDIT: Also the purpose of this thread is to construct an accurate (but not necessarily reliable) metric of comparison amongst Ash's Pokémon. If you're too stringent on what the word "win" should mean then I have no problem changing the title to something like "Proficiency Coefficient".
    Last edited by Genaller; 16th January 2017 at 11:09 PM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    My Ash Pokémon win rates by Xenon Blue: http://www.serebiiforums.com/attachm...9&d=1507252188

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickdt View Post
    They don't count in the OFFICIAL win/loss ratio, else Pikachu has a far lower amount of win/loss ratio than it now has. Thus... Officially... only League, Gyms and offical Tournaments count. Since... if we do count the non-official... its unfair to a Pokemon that loses.. compared to a Pokemon that is caught later. For example... Caterpie lost to Pidgeotto... but Pidgeotto was still caught. Is that a win for Caterpie then? No it isn't. Or when Ash caught Krabby. Pikachu was out of its Pokeball. Is it a win for Pikachu because it was outside of his Pokeball. You see.. including non-official battles is giving the wrong measurments and thus training battles (Which basically Charizard vs Greninja was... since they wanted to draw out the Ash-Greninja power)... are not to be included.

    But still... i feel like this discussion is kinda redundant... since everyone uses another method to decide win/loss ratio.
    Wins should always count if they are clean wins. You can't compare them to Caterpie vs Pidgeotto since Caterpie was defeated and Pikachu was the one to weaken Pidgeotto for Ash to catch it. Greninja vs Sceptile battles outside the League had conclusive results- Frogadier defeated Grovyle, Greninja defeated Sceptile(as Ash-Greninja), and then Sceptile defeated Greninja. Battles with conclusive results should be included, that pretty much fair. Even if you see Greninja vs Heidayu's Bisharp, that had a conclusive result- Greninja(as Ash-Greninja) defeated that Bisharp. TR battles, on the other hand, are pretty much a regular occurrence, and most of the times, end without conclusive results(TR get blasted off without their Pokemon fainting). Thus its fair to exclude TR battles. But other battles with conclusive results(win or loss) should be counted, especially if they are relevant to the plot, that's pretty fair in my opinion.
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 17th January 2017 at 1:39 AM.
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    Pikachu current score Win 76 5 draws and 43 loses

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    Quote Originally Posted by p96822 View Post
    Pikachu current score Win 76 5 draws and 43 loses
    That’s...*clap*clap*clap... wow well done ! So Pikachu has a minutely better overall record in comparison to his “official” record. Feel free to cross check my other results or bring up any other issues you have with the battle record lists .

    Edit: Interestingly enough Pikachu still has the 8th highest “win” rate amongst Ash’s Pokémon despite being horrendously inconsistent.

    EDIT2: Here’s a neat chart by Xenon Blue regarding the overall win rates of Ash’s Pokémon http://www.serebiiforums.com/attachm...9&d=1507252188
    Last edited by Genaller; 6th October 2017 at 2:27 AM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    My Ash Pokémon win rates by Xenon Blue: http://www.serebiiforums.com/attachm...9&d=1507252188

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    Pikachu's battles are only "horribly inconsistent" because it constantly has to put up with being weakened, injured, etc in a lot of them. Which is why when it's fine it always dos good. It makes perfect sense for Pikahu to be one of the top on that list lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by satopi View Post
    I know lots of people call Ash a loser who loses all the time (I can't see it), but he won way more on screen than he lost battles.
    Either that or a Mary Sue with plot armor"...Guy just can't catch a break. Also lol at people ever expecting a ten year old to win a regional tournament with 60 when other older more experienced people are competing also..
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    Pikachu's battles are only "horribly inconsistent" because it constantly has to put up with being weakened, injured, etc in a lot of them. Which is why when it's fine it always does good. It makes perfect sense for Pikahu to be one of the top on that list lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by satopi View Post
    I know lots of people call Ash a loser who loses all the time (I can't see it), but he won way more on screen than he lost battles.
    Either that or a Mary Sue with plot armor"...Guy just can't catch a break. Also lol at people ever expecting a ten year old to win a regional tournament with 60 when other older more experienced people are competing also..
    Check out my original story: Forbidden Book
    http://www.fictionpress.com/s/3163587/1/Forbidden-Book

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    Pikachu oscillates between being Ash's ace and being the writer's fall-guy. The writers feature Pikachu prominently in lots of battles, but whenever they want another of Ash's Pokemon to be the star Pikachu has to be defeated to boost the winner's significance. Remember the vast majority of battles come down to just one Pokemon left, which means all but one will "lose" at some point in every battle, even if the net result is a victory or they've defeated another Pokemon in the same battle. This percentage means that if they defeat one Pokemon in a battle and lose to another, they cancel each other out, which is nonsense. By this logic, Sceptile defeating a Darkrai is undermined because it lost to Latios straight after: one of the most outstanding achievements by one of Ash's strongest Pokemon undercut by happening mid-match rather than at the finale. We see the likes of Greninja, Charizard and Infernape sitting higher because they were the last Pokemon standing in lots of gym and league battles, while the likes of Hawlucha, Bulbasaur and Staraptor sitting much lower despite many impressive wins because they are typically sent out early in the match rather than later, and need to be cleared out of the way by the opponent's ace for the sake of tension.

    So I'm not at all fond of the way they've done these stats. I would say that any loss which follows a win should only count for half as many percentage points as a 1v1 loss.

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