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Thread: Ideal Villain Plot

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    Default Ideal Villain Plot

    I'm not simply asking for improvements to old plots; I'm looking for what is ideal for the plot overall.


    Seeing that I personally dislike the lack of villain-hero interactions outside of "We're freaking evil, twerps!" "We're going to stop you!" I'm all for refreshing interactions. Not having the heroes and villains constantly screaming, growling, or grunting at each other would be a nice change.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

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    An antagonist with only the best intentions who is hard to dislike because he makes a pretty compelling argument. Or better yet, blur the line between antagonists and protagonists and make the audience actively root for either side instead of just for one side (the whole good vs bad trope is overused).

    Or maybe, a plot where the villain succeeds in achieving their goal, but begins having second thoughts once their plan comes to fruition? Perhaps they dislike the way things are developing? Perhaps they had something different in mind?
    Last edited by Janovy; 24th December 2016 at 11:50 PM.


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    Something like the B1W1 Team Plasma plot, have the villains be manipulative but not generic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    An antagonist with only the best intentions who is hard to dislike because he makes a pretty compelling argument. Or better yet, blur the line between antagonists and protagonists and make the audience actively root for either side instead of just for one side (the whole good vs bad trope is overused).

    Or maybe, a plot where the villain succeeds in achieving their goal, but begins having second thoughts once their plan comes to fruition? Perhaps they dislike the way things are developing? Perhaps they had something different in mind?
    This was something that games Team Flare had over anime Team Flare, Lysandre was manic, but he had enough empathy and well intent (and a small bit of logic) that the protagonists actually felt bad for him and tried to reason with him. "The tears! Why?" was rather powerful, it was a hero's dumbfounded reaction to a villain who wasn't just 'Mwah, hah, hah! I love causing evil!". In the anime this was all dumbed down by making Lysandre more sadistic and using Alain, so all the sympathy could be pushed onto the latter (who they could easily redeem) and they could just do the generic you suck banter towards Lysandre.

    The anime's sore point has always been grey morality, and having the heroes acknowledge it. Evil doers must be defeated and remotely likeable characters must be redeemed totally. The only exception is Team Rocket, and even then their interactions with the twerps are generically evil enough that they can just shoehorn them as 'bad people who steal Pokemon' most of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
    Something like the B1W1 Team Plasma plot, have the villains be manipulative but not generic.
    I'm still frustrated they never properly adapted BW1 Team Plasma, and Team Rocket vs Team Plasma.
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    I personally like AF plot in SM games. I hope anime has identical or similar plot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    I personally like AF plot in SM games. I hope anime has identical or similar plot.
    Yeah, they were really clever to use the obvious bad guys of Team Skull for their dirty work while their foundation looked like the good guys to the public.
    Pokemon: The Black & White Adventure PILOT

    "14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    I personally like AF plot in SM games. I hope anime has identical or similar plot.
    I agree, although that cutscene at the beginning kinda ruined the twist halfway through
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Yeah, they were really clever to use the obvious bad guys of Team Skull for their dirty work while their foundation looked like the good guys to the public.
    But the pening cutscene kinda destroyed the twist
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    I personally like AF plot in SM games. I hope anime has identical or similar plot.
    It better be identical. It'd have potential to beat Galactic's plot. Every single character had a unique personality and were actually memorable, rather than villains who are..... just there like the TF girls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DankOverlord View Post
    But the pening cutscene kinda destroyed the twist
    For us maybe. However, it was still smart of the Foundation to use Team Skull as the decoys for the public and hide their intentions with some positive PR rather than doing it themselves.
    Pokemon: The Black & White Adventure PILOT

    "14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Yeah, they were really clever to use the obvious bad guys of Team Skull for their dirty work while their foundation looked like the good guys to the public.
    We kind of expected the Aether Foundation was up to no good. At this point we could predict they've throw a curve ball
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedJirachi View Post
    We kind of expected the Aether Foundation was up to no good. At this point we could predict they've throw a curve ball
    I was mainly referring to how the public in-universe saw both groups thanks to Lusamine's manipulation.
    Pokemon: The Black & White Adventure PILOT

    "14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

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    Just have a villain that isn't so generic and delusional. No more of this "I don't care what happens to this world, all I want is for this world to become mine!". Maybe make the villain have some sort of tragic past that triggers it's hatred towards society and seeks revenge against them, or perhaps it's intention is to capture some mythical Pokemon to use it's power to revive a loved one or whatnot. It's still sort of generic and cliche, but I will take that every time over what we have seen so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLazyEyes View Post
    Just have a villain that isn't so generic and delusional. No more of this "I don't care what happens to this world, all I want is for this world to become mine!". Maybe make the villain have some sort of tragic past that triggers it's hatred towards society and seeks revenge against them, or perhaps it's intention is to capture some mythical Pokemon to use it's power to revive a loved one or whatnot. It's still sort of generic and cliche, but I will take that every time over what we have seen so far.
    wasn't lysander basically like that

    anyway, I would want a villain who is relatable and to some extent, I feel sorry for. Someone whose morality is questionable instead of being outright evil.
    Last edited by snorlax512; 27th December 2016 at 8:43 AM.

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    Outright evil isn't bad in terms of characterization but you have to make it entertaining enough to work in terms of the actor's performance and the script they're working off of.

    For example, Freeza and Cell from Dragon Ball Z are pretty damn evil and there's not tragic backstory for them being so. Yeah, people love them for how they're so unapologetically malicious. It helps that the dub (of DBZ Kai) has Christopher Ayres and Dameon Clarke give a pretty damn good performance to sell us these characters.
    Pokemon: The Black & White Adventure PILOT

    "14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    wasn't lysander basically like that

    anyway, I would want a villain who is relatable and to some extent, I feel sorry for. Someone whose morality is questionable instead of being outright evil.
    The anime downplayed it a fair deal from the games version, the 'evil unfettered psychopath' element was more prevalent by the finale anyway. They wanted a villain the twerps could go 'shut up evil' to rather than doubt or feel sorry for. The only villains granted sympathy (bar sometimes TR) have to be totally forgiven and turn good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    The anime downplayed it a fair deal from the games version, the 'evil unfettered psychopath' element was more prevalent by the finale anyway. They wanted a villain the twerps could go 'shut up evil' to rather than doubt or feel sorry for. The only villains granted sympathy (bar sometimes TR) have to be totally forgiven and turn good.
    If the games can give a variety of villains that have their reasons for doing what they do, why can't the Anime properly convey that?
    Pokemon: The Black & White Adventure PILOT

    "14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

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    Sometimes I feel they should just copy the villain plots from the games. The old saying goes "don't fix what isn't broken". The Plasma arc is a key example of this. Though I admit they do add and improve arcs, like Team Rocket as a whole; sure the Team Rocket trio is incompetent, but the organization as a whole is basically SPECTRE compared to 90% of game Team Rocket being idiots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedJirachi View Post
    Though I admit they do add and improve arcs, like Team Rocket as a whole; sure the Team Rocket trio is incompetent, but the organization as a whole is basically SPECTRE compared to 90% of game Team Rocket being idiots.
    Speaking of them, they should've had a big clash with Team Rocket that lead to its end in Johto. They could've had Jessie, James and Meowth still on Ash's trail sure but I feel like Team Rocket was left too loose of a plot thread and I'm not sure if they know how to tie it up.
    Pokemon: The Black & White Adventure PILOT

    "14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

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    My ideal evil team plot would be one which involves one of Ash's companions heavily into the evil team - maybe they were once part of it, or maybe they are part of it? That would be an interesting idea. We might've got it a bit with N but he was only really a companion for about 7 episodes. I'm talking about a close friend of Ash.

    Oh, and something which doesn't involve a Deus Ex Machina. Looking at you Team Flare Arc (Zygarde cores could've stopped the fight at any minute which kinda made the whole fighting thing a bit pointless to me, if anyone has a counter-argument feel free to mention it to me).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdy McNerdface View Post
    My ideal evil team plot would be one which involves one of Ash's companions heavily into the evil team - maybe they were once part of it, or maybe they are part of it? That would be an interesting idea. We might've got it a bit with N but he was only really a companion for about 7 episodes. I'm talking about a close friend of Ash.

    Oh, and something which doesn't involve a Deus Ex Machina. Looking at you Team Flare Arc (Zygarde cores could've stopped the fight at any minute which kinda made the whole fighting thing a bit pointless to me, if anyone has a counter-argument feel free to mention it to me).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
        Spoiler:- SM:
        Spoiler:- S/M:
    Game OTP: IronWill (Dawn x Riley)
    Anime OTP: Marisson (Alain x Mairin)
    Manga brOTP: Origin (Steven x Wallace)


    I also have a nominated story there!

    I write shipping fics! In any of the stories I post in the shipping fics area, feel free to drop in to say hi and leave a review! I gain motivation to continue writing through this, so any kind of review is great!

    "Our path may have a clear end with our friends, but it doesn't mean we cannot do anything with them while it lasts. Make sure you spend your time with them to the fullest, so when you have to part ways, once all is finally done, hold your head high, smile, and look onward to the future world that you made together!" ~ from this fanfic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdy McNerdface View Post
        Spoiler:- S/M:
        Spoiler:- S/M:

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Speaking of them, they should've had a big clash with Team Rocket that lead to its end in Johto. They could've had Jessie, James and Meowth still on Ash's trail sure but I feel like Team Rocket was left too loose of a plot thread and I'm not sure if they know how to tie it up.
    Team Rocket's kind of the anomaly in that its the only villainous team that hasn't collapsed after the region it was introduced. Almost certainly because it's too iconic to do so
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