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Thread: OU without Shandera.

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweep Freak View Post
    Anything with Shadow Tag has to be banned. Seriously, ban the entire ability, even in Ubers. No more Wobbuffet jerking us off (not that way) And Chandelure can stop shooting us the middle... candle?

    Seriously, Uber Shanderaa sounds good to me.

    Ooooooh, I hope they ban sleep moves, they already began testing for it.

    ok, I would like to quickly point out that banning something in Ubers because it is broken is counterproductive because Ubers is a tier for broken pokemon that are deemed "broken."

    Anyways, I never found Shandera to be too overbearing in the Dream World tier [if you can really even call it a tier]. I suppose I am not the best judge of that though but whatever. I think that OU will obviously be greatly affected by Shandera's possible ban in OU. Many many pokemon will become at least a little bit more common in OU such as Lefties Nattorei and perhaps choiced fighting types.
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    Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce you to Blaziken, the new face of Dream World OU. *sniff*I'm so proud! :')

    Anyhow, I'm really glad someone decided to do something about Chandelure. I wouldn't say it was completely broken, but it was just too overcentralizing. When you've got a Pokemon that can trap and kill such a large number of key Pokemon without fail, something's gotta be done. And do you know how many teams I could say are "Chandelure weak"? No, way too overcentralizing.

    I'm just wondering how much the metagame will shift during this next month. As of now, Conkeldurr dropped from 4/5ish to 18, Excadrill dropped to 15, ol' Ninetails jumped, and of course you know about Blaziken. Not to say this is bad, as a lot of Pokemon now will be able to shine when they couldn't before. I guess we'll just have to see how things develop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artbomber_97 View Post
    Nah, evasion clause isn't there anymore in gen 5. I know, fuck it.

    You are forgetting that there's still the third user of Shadow Tag, which is Gothitelle. Gothitelle sucks, so there's no need to ban the whole ability.
    Couldn't they just ban shadow tag specifically on shandera? I never saw the point of banning a whole pokemon when you could just do that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweep Freak View Post
    Ooooooh, I hope they ban sleep moves, they already began testing for it.
    How about you ban every pokémon with a BST over 450 while you're at it? And all weather. And all status conditions. And entry hazards. And stat boosts. And recovery moves. And items. Or even better, pokémon in general.

    ...see my point? People have been getting more and more ban-happy since the beginning of the 4th gen.

    To quote eric the espeon from Smogon:

    "It seems we've been moving from banning only that which is broken, only what must be banned to have a balanced metagame, to attempting to ban everything we don't like."

    I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case with Shandy, but we're growing closer week by week.

    EDIT: On a side note, what advantage does Shadow Tag have over Arena Trap other than the whole Flying-Type/Levitator thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB View Post
    EDIT: On a side note, what advantage does Shadow Tag have over Arena Trap other than the whole Flying-Type/Levitator thing?
    Actually, I think that's it. However, Flyers and Levitators not being able to escape makes it that much more deadly.

    Ban Shadow Tag to Ubers, please! Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    When did you do see Double Team last? I took my Wifi UU team and gave Swellow Double Team. Now it won't let me use it anywhere except Ubers.

    Edit: OHKOs are allowed I think.
    Oh, last time I saw it was in Ubers too. Maybe Evasion is allowed in Ubers? And yeah, OHKOs are allowed, yesterday I just battled a Guillotine Glisor -.-' and it took out 2 of my pokemon -.-'' which is really retarded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB View Post
    "It seems we've been moving from banning only that which is broken, only what must be banned to have a balanced metagame, to attempting to ban everything we don't like."

    I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case with Shandy, but we're growing closer week by week.
    And whats wrong with banning something because we don't like it? We don't play this game to make money, or become famous (or even "gamer famous" like Starcraft). We play because its fun. If something introduces an element into the game that makes it less fun, whats wrong with banning it?

    Its possible to build a team with high "Shanderaa resistance", but you do it at the cost of using dozens of other somewhat viable Pokemon. I want to make teams without having to worry about my sweeper being incinerated once it drops to about 70%. Its not like you can stop Shandera by running one counter, the problem is when your whole team has to be conditioned to stop shandy, as anything that doesn't will just end up dying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    And whats wrong with banning something because we don't like it? We don't play this game to make money, or become famous (or even "gamer famous" like Starcraft). We play because its fun. If something introduces an element into the game that makes it less fun, whats wrong with banning it?

    Its possible to build a team with high "Shanderaa resistance", but you do it at the cost of using dozens of other somewhat viable Pokemon. I want to make teams without having to worry about my sweeper being incinerated once it drops to about 70%. Its not like you can stop Shandera by running one counter, the problem is when your whole team has to be conditioned to stop shandy, as anything that doesn't will just end up dying.
    I agree with Blue Harvest. Who would want to play a game they deemed not fun? That defeats the purpose. Shandera should be banned because it's taking over the OU metagame just like Garchomp did. Ubers is a place for boken pokemon that has become to strong for standard play. Shandera belongs there for that reason....at least Shadow Tag Shandera.
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    My point: You can ban Shadow Tag if you wish (I'm not saying that I don't think it should be banned), but don't go banning everything that nearly all strategies are based around or else before long all pokemon and all battles will be the same. It's like sucking the color out of a picture. Besides, the same tools that you want to ban on other people are available to you, too.

    My pessimistic analysis of competitive pokémon: It's doomed. With more and more and more pokémon being created, eventually we will reach a point where there is no possible team that counters more than a rather small percentage of them (unless the rules are changed to allow someone to have like 10 pokemon in their party). The game will be much less fun unless more tiers are created/split. It already looks like OU needs a split to prevent some viable threats from slipping into UU. Making BL a playable tier would fix it also... for now. I feel sad.

    And on a side note: Shadow Tag is also better than Arena Trap because the trapping is permanent and Arena Trap's trapping wears off after the pokémon with Arena Trap switches out or is KO'd.

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  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB View Post
    My point: You can ban Shadow Tag if you wish (I'm not saying that I don't think it should be banned), but don't go banning everything that nearly all strategies are based around or else before long all pokemon and all battles will be the same. It's like sucking the color out of a picture. Besides, the same tools that you want to ban on other people are available to you, too.
    Tbh, its worse if we choose not to ban broken strategies. If something is broken then everyone will eventually use it and that makes the game far more redundant than banning everything we don't like. Take Chomp last gen, for example. During testing it was used on over 80% of teams, which is clearly much worse than OU after it was banned as things like Scizor managed to barely stay over 30%. Even this gen, nearly all strategies are based around weather, so removing it will lead to more strategies if anything, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by ASB View Post
    My pessimistic analysis of competitive pokémon: It's doomed. With more and more and more pokémon being created, eventually we will reach a point where there is no possible team that counters more than a rather small percentage of them (unless the rules are changed to allow someone to have like 10 pokemon in their party). The game will be much less fun unless more tiers are created/split. It already looks like OU needs a split to prevent some viable threats from slipping into UU. Making BL a playable tier would fix it also... for now. I feel sad.
    Viable threats slipping into lower tiers is something that will always happen when more threats are created. The newer threats are simply better than the old threats so to a degree if they aren't being used they deserve to fall, which is pretty much the point of tiering. Splitting tiers doesn't really accomplish anything since less people will play the more you tiers you add. Nearly everyone will play OU simply because of what it is. Only a handful of those players will play Ubers or UU. If you go farther down to NU, it is very difficult to find a battle that isn't against the same few people since only a few will play the tier. Adding tiers wouldn't serve much purpose since the competitive community simply isn't big enough to have the interest to have that many tiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ASB View Post
    And on a side note: Shadow Tag is also better than Arena Trap because the trapping is permanent and Arena Trap's trapping wears off after the pokémon with Arena Trap switches out or is KO'd.
    Actually the only differences are that Arena Trap can't work on Flying/Levitate pokes, plus the only Arena Trap users suck (Trapinch and Dugtrio.) When compared to Shandera, Wobbuffet, and heck even Gochiruzeru they simply don't compare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce you to Blaziken, the new face of Dream World OU. *sniff*I'm so proud! :')

    Anyhow, I'm really glad someone decided to do something about Chandelure. I wouldn't say it was completely broken, but it was just too overcentralizing. When you've got a Pokemon that can trap and kill such a large number of key Pokemon without fail, something's gotta be done. And do you know how many teams I could say are "Chandelure weak"? No, way too overcentralizing.

    I'm just wondering how much the metagame will shift during this next month. As of now, Conkeldurr dropped from 4/5ish to 18, Excadrill dropped to 15, ol' Ninetails jumped, and of course you know about Blaziken. Not to say this is bad, as a lot of Pokemon now will be able to shine when they couldn't before. I guess we'll just have to see how things develop.
    Can I shed tears of joy with you too, j-freak? X')

    (Hmm... I wonder if the rise of Boostiken will trigger a rise in the use of Speed Boost Sharpy with Aqua Jet...)

    Back on topic, it sounds the game is a whole lot more un-centralized already with Shadow Tag Shandy banned. I wonder where Shandelure without Shadow Tag will fall now... any ideas?

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    Tbh, its worse if we choose not to ban broken strategies. I never said it was bad to ban broken strategies, but broadening the definition of "broken" is ill-advised. If something is broken then everyone will eventually use it and that makes the game far more redundant than banning everything we don't like. Take Chomp last gen, for example. During testing it was used on over 80% of teams, which is clearly much worse than OU after it was banned as things like Scizor managed to barely stay over 30%. I know, right? I hate Chomp, it's such a troll :P. Even this gen, nearly all strategies are based around weather, so removing it will lead to more strategies if anything, not the other way around. I agree with banning permanent weather in conjunction speed-boosting abilities (mostly just Sand Rush Excadrill, as it's much more dangerous than any Swift Swimmers, except maybe Luvdisc.)

    Viable threats slipping into lower tiers is something that will always happen when more threats are created. The newer threats are simply better than the old threats so to a degree if they aren't being used they deserve to fall, which is pretty much the point of tiering. Splitting tiers doesn't really accomplish anything since less people will play the more you tiers you add. Nice point, but you'll end up with hundreds of pokemon in a single tier eventually. Nearly everyone will play OU simply because of what it is. Yeah, prolly. I guess there'd be problems either way. Only a handful of those players will play Ubers or UU. If you go farther down to NU, it is very difficult to find a battle that isn't against the same few people since only a few will play the tier. Adding tiers wouldn't serve much purpose since the competitive community simply isn't big enough to have the interest to have that many tiers.

    Actually the only differences are that Arena Trap can't work on Flying/Levitate pokes (I already knew that, I just didn't mention it since I already had said it in a previous post., plus the only Arena Trap users suck (Trapinch and Dugtrio.) When compared to Shandera, Wobbuffet, and heck even Gochiruzeru they simply don't compare. Agreed.
    Also, on a totally different note, I have a new idea for tiering: Alright. So there's this list with the percent of teams that each pokémon is on. To find out what tier a team is in, you'd add up the percentages of each of your team members and use the final number to determine the tier. (There'd be a table to find this out- UU would be X% to Y%, OU would be Y% to Z%, etc.) Ubers would still be in their own class. I'm not saying this would fix the problems, it's totally unrelated. Just thought it was a cool idea though.

    On yet another totally different note: I am so glad that DW Blaziken gets Speed Boost. I love seeing a pokémon that was overshadowed by its knock off (coldly glares at Infernape) become practical again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB
    ...mostly just Sand Rush Excadrill, as it's much more dangerous than any Swift Swimmers, except maybe Luvdisc.
    Luvdisc, more dangerous than Excadrill? =_=' Me thinks you mixed up your words...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxrayess View Post
    Luvdisc, more dangerous than Excadrill? =_=' Me thinks you mixed up your words...
    'Twas a joke.

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    I'd like to say that I think that chandelure is a really cool pokemon, and if it's not going to be allowed in standard play I bet it would make some people mad.

    I'm with the shadow tag clause


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  16. #41

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    Ban weather, Ban Shadow Tag..... Bans make the game lose its difficulty, for example, a Shandera takes on fighting choiced moves, lockd moves, or anything it can resist. I never liked the choice items, but if you find a Shandera, unless you are weak to its types, it can be beaten with those pathetic stats(except Sp Atk) or send an eccentric Ditto after the sacrifice(this is the only thing that sucks to me), which is the TRUE ultimate revenge killer. Weather themed teams are sure to be common, but weather had always been common. Just send another weather into play(in a careful switch) or use it as an advantage if you can. Also, the opponent having a Shandera doesn´t mean you can´t have a Shandera. The opponent having a strong Drizzletoed and Kingdra doesn´t mean you can´t bring a Droughtails and a Chlorophyll Poke(sun is gimmick), or a Hippowdon and a Excadrill.

    It is just whether you take the new advantages thrown toward you, or if you think you are good enough to take them with a pretty good strategy. That´s the only way to win.
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    This is the opposite of what we want.

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    Don't ban Shanderaa. Just Shadow Tag.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbomber72 View Post
    Ban weather, Ban Shadow Tag..... Bans make the game lose its difficulty,
    I dislike this statement. Bans don't remove difficulty from the game unless we are using them wrong, but we aren't in any of those cases. If anything, bans make a more balanced metagame which makes it easier for players who are truly more skilled to win more consistently as opposed to the noobs who win by spamming broken stuff like ST Chandelure and generic teams with Politoed/Nattorei/Kingdra/Latios/other common Rain pokes. Not banning stuff which is obviously broken makes for a repetitive, terrible metagame like many believe 5th gen to be with all the broken stuff, though when you aren't facing Shandera or weather teams the game really isn't that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbomber72 View Post
    Weather themed teams are sure to be common, but weather had always been common. Just send another weather into play(in a careful switch) or use it as an advantage if you can.
    The only common weather last gen was Sand, unless you are referring to UU/NU where Rain was viable, or Ubers which was a weather shitstorm. In 5th gen its not as simple as just sending in a weather user of your own to defeat other weather teams as they will be determined to keep their weather poke alive to change it back when they see you have a Toed/Tails/Tar/Hippo/Snow in team builder. This makes it to where every battle fought between teams which have these pokes very redundant, since the entire fight is often decided by which weather user goes down first as it gives such a massive advantage to the player with weather on their side. Normal teams also struggle even more against weather since they have to dedicate 3 or so team slots just to be able to handle it, and even that isn't always enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbomber72 View Post
    Also, the opponent having a Shandera doesn´t mean you can´t have a Shandera. The opponent having a strong Drizzletoed and Kingdra doesn´t mean you can´t bring a Droughtails and a Chlorophyll Poke(sun is gimmick), or a Hippowdon and a Excadrill.
    Just because my opponent has Kyogre doesn't mean I can't have Groudon. Just because my opponent has a Reshiram doesn't mean I cant have Zekrom. See what I did there? By your logic nothing is broken...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbomber72 View Post
    It is just whether you take the new advantages thrown toward you, or if you think you are good enough to take them with a pretty good strategy. That´s the only way to win.
    Weather teams are hardly based on strategy when all you have to do is throw Toed with some generic Rain pokes in order to win. There is literally only one or two changes between every Rain team you will ever encounter. Sand is just as bad since you are guaranteed to fight Hippo and/or Tar along with Excadrill and Landorus. Sun really isn't all that bad so far. It also takes no thought to throw Chandelure on a team and suddenly be capable of revenge killing over half of all viable pokes in the game. You are right that its just about the only way to win, but thats exactly why its broken. Because its the ONLY way to win, aside from a select few other strategies which the more experienced players will devise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweep Freak View Post
    Don't ban Shanderaa. Just Shadow Tag.
    this.

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    Agreed about banning Shadow Tag. In my experience, the people who say ST Chandelure isn't broken are the ones who aren't using it properly: the ones that are trying to set up 6 Calm Minds and sweep and aren't using it just to trap and revenge kill. Flame Body/Flash Fire is manageable, Shadow Tag makes all sorts of things near unviable and removes the prediction aspect whih makes competitive battling so fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    And whats wrong with banning something because we don't like it? We don't play this game to make money, or become famous (or even "gamer famous" like Starcraft). We play because its fun. If something introduces an element into the game that makes it less fun, whats wrong with banning it?

    Its possible to build a team with high "Shanderaa resistance", but you do it at the cost of using dozens of other somewhat viable Pokemon. I want to make teams without having to worry about my sweeper being incinerated once it drops to about 70%. Its not like you can stop Shandera by running one counter, the problem is when your whole team has to be conditioned to stop shandy, as anything that doesn't will just end up dying.
    You make it seem like this one pokemon is the end of the world...

    I am still in complete awe.... how immature can people be about this game? Let's ban everything that makes a potential Revenge Killer, right?

    Oh wait, my Stall Team isn't affected at all by Chandelure. IDGAF what happens to it. I've already come up with ideas to counter the Chandelure as we speak, and it is no threat to my team, whatsoever. She is prone to come in against certain things; and I have made those pokemon specific to counter her for my Stall Team. All it takes is a creative mind. As soon as a Damage Calculator for the 5th Generation comes out, I'll be able to test if this idea works; and I'm nearly 100% sure that it will, and is fool-proof.

    Jesus christ. Maybe some people should learn how to play something -other- than Heavy Offense? Just a thought here, people.

    Honest to god, I don't see an issue with the pokemon itself. If the ability is a deciding factor in itself, then so be it. I have no altercation against banning this poor thing. I just believe people should be able to work around it... Perhaps that's asking too much.

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  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    Not banning stuff which is obviously broken makes for a repetitive, terrible metagame like many believe 5th gen to be with all the broken stuff, though when you aren't facing Shandera or weather teams the game really isn't that bad.
    If you're going to ban everything, do you expect to see variety? Simple answer is no. players are going to use what obviously works best to the fullest extent in their teams. Banning them means little to nothing as there will always be something more centralizing to surface until there's a metagame utterly devoid of any variety and/or functional creativity (not gimmicks).
    If anything, bans make a more balanced metagame which makes it easier for players who are truly more skilled to win more consistently(...)
    Yet another generic comment involving "skill". There is no such thing as skill in the Pokemon series. Secondary effects, accuracy, critical hits and other mechanics in that category will be working against your so-called "skill". In competitive battles there's only strategy. How much you're able to stay on your toes when your precious team or supposedly fool-proof strategy get's ruined by one of the aforementioned and you're left raging. Usually with the victim ranting how it only required "luck" or "hax" --It's a part of the game; suck it up. You can be more knowledgeable than your opponent, but with these factors constantly working against you, there will never be "skill" in Pokemon. Just what you're aware of, and how you plan to make provisions to continue on if you're struck by luck; good or bad.

    (...)as opposed to the noobs who win by spamming broken stuff like ST Chandelure and generic teams with Politoed/Nattorei/Kingdra/Latios/other common Rain pokes.
    Oh, my apologies if I feel like using what clearly works best when I'm already restricted from using better Pokemon (in higher tiers) who do the job more efficiently. What you're calling "noob" is the result of the "ban it all" philosophy Smogon and the users in this thread seem to be doing lately.

    ...

    But tiers are based on usage, correct? Naturally these Pokemon are going to be *puts on sunglasses*...OverUsed.
    (...)Weather teams are hardly based on strategy when all you have to do is throw Toed with some generic Rain pokes in order to win.
    This is where you're wrong. You can't just slap Kingdra/Ludicolo/Filler Swift Swim user and whatnot on any rain dedicated team. There's a bit more than building a weather team than you're suggesting. Hell, even before Smogon did that "combo ban" of Drizzle/Swift Swim, I didn't have a single Pokemon with SS in my team. Results? It still functioned pretty well without it, and actually required serious thought.

    There is literally only one or two changes between every Rain team you will ever encounter...
    ...Sand is just as bad since you are guaranteed to fight Hippo and/or Tar along with Excadrill and Landorus.
    (...)players are going to use what obviously works best to the fullest extent in their teams.
    Sun really isn't all that bad so far. It also takes no thought to throw Chandelure on a team and suddenly be capable of revenge killing over half of all viable pokes in the game.
    I've yet to see this happen to me, ever. Everybody is blowing this CM set way out of proportions. Chandelure is too slow to make any genius use of trap-boosting in all attempts I've tried to do so. Perhaps if you want to stick Nitro charge somewhere on the set - do so, just to be walled by the likes of Heatran and Tar (if you've eschewed HP ground) and a few others if that floats your boat.
    However, I'll agree that it works best as a revenge killer. In Ubers a set of Overheat, Curse (inconsistent users)/Flamethrower, HP Ground/Rock and Shadow Ball, works well as one. But even so, you're not going to be revenging a whole lot of things with that SR weakness and toxic spikes/spikes vulnerability.

    You are right that its just about the only way to win, but thats exactly why its broken. Because its the ONLY way to win, aside from a select few other strategies which the more experienced players will devise.
    Edit: It's funny because, I have yet to have seen anybody mention any use of Shed Shell in this thread - but that's overcentralizing too, I'm sorry.

    PS: Let's just keep up the bans, because I can assure you; nobody but Smogon drones are going to care. Especially those who participate in GF's tournaments (VGCs, namely) --which is frankly, all I play for. Otherwise, I'll be having me a casual time not worrying about bans. I was exactly like all of you at some point; but eventually realized how moronic Smogon's decisions have become.

  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by A d v e n t™ View Post
    If you're going to ban everything, do you expect to see variety? Simple answer is no. players are going to use what obviously works best to the fullest extent in their teams. Banning them means little to nothing as there will always be something more centralizing to surface until there's a metagame utterly devoid of any variety and/or functional creativity (not gimmicks).
    Now see, this is where I disagree with you. I purposely use Gimmicks in my standard playing OU and UU AND NU Teams, and proceed to destroy people with them. However, they tend to lose effectiveness after being seen the 2nd or 3rd time, as people plan around the gimmicks.

    The aspect of surprise will always be a part of the meta-game, in my opinion. That's probably why I broke 1500 in Ubers running 4 NU's, lol. ( And the Two Ubers I ran were Mew and Kyogre.)

    -The Ultimate Lost Shadow-
    Don't underestimate me, I'll prove to be your downfall.

    If you need help with anything, please send me a Private Message. I am currently I Abuse Smeargles "student" and would be more than happy to help you.

  25. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by I Reckon You Silly! View Post
    Now see, this is where I disagree with you. I purposely use Gimmicks in my standard playing OU and UU AND NU Teams, and proceed to destroy people with them. However, they tend to lose effectiveness after being seen the 2nd or 3rd time, as people plan around the gimmicks.

    The aspect of surprise will always be a part of the meta-game, in my opinion. That's probably why I broke 1500 in Ubers running 4 NU's, lol. ( And the Two Ubers I ran were Mew and Kyogre.)
    It will surprise, yes. But far too often I've done such things unsuccessfully. That, or I just battle players who potentially see gimmicks coming far too often, lol.
    But if done successfully, the reward could be could be pretty big and turn things in your favor.

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