OU without Shandera.

[Blackbomber72]

Ban weather, Ban Shadow Tag..... Bans make the game lose its difficulty, for example, a Shandera takes on fighting choiced moves, lockd moves, or anything it can resist. I never liked the choice items, but if you find a Shandera, unless you are weak to its types, it can be beaten with those pathetic stats(except Sp Atk) or send an eccentric Ditto after the sacrifice(this is the only thing that sucks to me), which is the TRUE ultimate revenge killer. Weather themed teams are sure to be common, but weather had always been common. Just send another weather into play(in a careful switch) or use it as an advantage if you can. Also, the opponent having a Shandera doesn´t mean you can´t have a Shandera. The opponent having a strong Drizzletoed and Kingdra doesn´t mean you can´t bring a Droughtails and a Chlorophyll Poke(sun is gimmick), or a Hippowdon and a Excadrill.

It is just whether you take the new advantages thrown toward you, or if you think you are good enough to take them with a pretty good strategy. That´s the only way to win.

[GarbageWarrior]

This is the opposite of what we want.

[Sweep Freak]

Don't ban Shanderaa. Just Shadow Tag.

[d0nut]

Ban weather, Ban Shadow Tag..... Bans make the game lose its difficulty,

I dislike this statement. Bans don't remove difficulty from the game unless we are using them wrong, but we aren't in any of those cases. If anything, bans make a more balanced metagame which makes it easier for players who are truly more skilled to win more consistently as opposed to the noobs who win by spamming broken stuff like ST Chandelure and generic teams with Politoed/Nattorei/Kingdra/Latios/other common Rain pokes. Not banning stuff which is obviously broken makes for a repetitive, terrible metagame like many believe 5th gen to be with all the broken stuff, though when you aren't facing Shandera or weather teams the game really isn't that bad.

Weather themed teams are sure to be common, but weather had always been common. Just send another weather into play(in a careful switch) or use it as an advantage if you can.

The only common weather last gen was Sand, unless you are referring to UU/NU where Rain was viable, or Ubers which was a weather shitstorm. In 5th gen its not as simple as just sending in a weather user of your own to defeat other weather teams as they will be determined to keep their weather poke alive to change it back when they see you have a Toed/Tails/Tar/Hippo/Snow in team builder. This makes it to where every battle fought between teams which have these pokes very redundant, since the entire fight is often decided by which weather user goes down first as it gives such a massive advantage to the player with weather on their side. Normal teams also struggle even more against weather since they have to dedicate 3 or so team slots just to be able to handle it, and even that isn't always enough.

Also, the opponent having a Shandera doesn´t mean you can´t have a Shandera. The opponent having a strong Drizzletoed and Kingdra doesn´t mean you can´t bring a Droughtails and a Chlorophyll Poke(sun is gimmick), or a Hippowdon and a Excadrill.

Just because my opponent has Kyogre doesn't mean I can't have Groudon. Just because my opponent has a Reshiram doesn't mean I cant have Zekrom. See what I did there? By your logic nothing is broken...

It is just whether you take the new advantages thrown toward you, or if you think you are good enough to take them with a pretty good strategy. That´s the only way to win.

Weather teams are hardly based on strategy when all you have to do is throw Toed with some generic Rain pokes in order to win. There is literally only one or two changes between every Rain team you will ever encounter. Sand is just as bad since you are guaranteed to fight Hippo and/or Tar along with Excadrill and Landorus. Sun really isn't all that bad so far. It also takes no thought to throw Chandelure on a team and suddenly be capable of revenge killing over half of all viable pokes in the game. You are right that its just about the only way to win, but thats exactly why its broken. Because its the ONLY way to win, aside from a select few other strategies which the more experienced players will devise.

[palingensia]

Don't ban Shanderaa. Just Shadow Tag.

this.

[streetlightdsb]

Agreed about banning Shadow Tag. In my experience, the people who say ST Chandelure isn't broken are the ones who aren't using it properly: the ones that are trying to set up 6 Calm Minds and sweep and aren't using it just to trap and revenge kill. Flame Body/Flash Fire is manageable, Shadow Tag makes all sorts of things near unviable and removes the prediction aspect whih makes competitive battling so fun.

[I Reckon You Silly!]

And whats wrong with banning something because we don't like it? We don't play this game to make money, or become famous (or even "gamer famous" like Starcraft). We play because its fun. If something introduces an element into the game that makes it less fun, whats wrong with banning it?

Its possible to build a team with high "Shanderaa resistance", but you do it at the cost of using dozens of other somewhat viable Pokemon. I want to make teams without having to worry about my sweeper being incinerated once it drops to about 70%. Its not like you can stop Shandera by running one counter, the problem is when your whole team has to be conditioned to stop shandy, as anything that doesn't will just end up dying.

You make it seem like this one pokemon is the end of the world...

I am still in complete awe.... how immature can people be about this game? Let's ban everything that makes a potential Revenge Killer, right?

Oh wait, my Stall Team isn't affected at all by Chandelure. IDGAF what happens to it. I've already come up with ideas to counter the Chandelure as we speak, and it is no threat to my team, whatsoever. She is prone to come in against certain things; and I have made those pokemon specific to counter her for my Stall Team. All it takes is a creative mind. As soon as a Damage Calculator for the 5th Generation comes out, I'll be able to test if this idea works; and I'm nearly 100% sure that it will, and is fool-proof.

Jesus christ. Maybe some people should learn how to play something -other- than Heavy Offense? Just a thought here, people.

Honest to god, I don't see an issue with the pokemon itself. If the ability is a deciding factor in itself, then so be it. I have no altercation against banning this poor thing. I just believe people should be able to work around it... Perhaps that's asking too much.

[Sonikku za Hejjihoggu]

Not banning stuff which is obviously broken makes for a repetitive, terrible metagame like many believe 5th gen to be with all the broken stuff, though when you aren't facing Shandera or weather teams the game really isn't that bad.

If you're going to ban everything, do you expect to see variety? Simple answer is no. players are going to use what obviously works best to the fullest extent in their teams. Banning them means little to nothing as there will always be something more centralizing to surface until there's a metagame utterly devoid of any variety and/or functional creativity (not gimmicks).

If anything, bans make a more balanced metagame which makes it easier for players who are truly more skilled to win more consistently(...)

Yet another generic comment involving "skill". There is no such thing as skill in the Pokemon series. Secondary effects, accuracy, critical hits and other mechanics in that category will be working against your so-called "skill". In competitive battles there's only strategy. How much you're able to stay on your toes when your precious team or supposedly fool-proof strategy get's ruined by one of the aforementioned and you're left raging. Usually with the victim ranting how it only required "luck" or "hax" --It's a part of the game; suck it up. You can be more knowledgeable than your opponent, but with these factors constantly working against you, there will never be "skill" in Pokemon. Just what you're aware of, and how you plan to make provisions to continue on if you're struck by luck; good or bad.

(...)as opposed to the noobs who win by spamming broken stuff like ST Chandelure and generic teams with Politoed/Nattorei/Kingdra/Latios/other common Rain pokes.

Oh, my apologies if I feel like using what clearly works best when I'm already restricted from using better Pokemon (in higher tiers) who do the job more efficiently. What you're calling "noob" is the result of the "ban it all" philosophy Smogon and the users in this thread seem to be doing lately.

...

But tiers are based on usage, correct? Naturally these Pokemon are going to be *puts on sunglasses*...OverUsed.

(...)Weather teams are hardly based on strategy when all you have to do is throw Toed with some generic Rain pokes in order to win.

This is where you're wrong. You can't just slap Kingdra/Ludicolo/Filler Swift Swim user and whatnot on any rain dedicated team. There's a bit more than building a weather team than you're suggesting. Hell, even before Smogon did that "combo ban" of Drizzle/Swift Swim, I didn't have a single Pokemon with SS in my team. Results? It still functioned pretty well without it, and actually required serious thought.

There is literally only one or two changes between every Rain team you will ever encounter...
...Sand is just as bad since you are guaranteed to fight Hippo and/or Tar along with Excadrill and Landorus.

(...)players are going to use what obviously works best to the fullest extent in their teams.

Sun really isn't all that bad so far. It also takes no thought to throw Chandelure on a team and suddenly be capable of revenge killing over half of all viable pokes in the game.

I've yet to see this happen to me, ever. Everybody is blowing this CM set way out of proportions. Chandelure is too slow to make any genius use of trap-boosting in all attempts I've tried to do so. Perhaps if you want to stick Nitro charge somewhere on the set - do so, just to be walled by the likes of Heatran and Tar (if you've eschewed HP ground) and a few others if that floats your boat.
However, I'll agree that it works best as a revenge killer. In Ubers a set of Overheat, Curse (inconsistent users)/Flamethrower, HP Ground/Rock and Shadow Ball, works well as one. But even so, you're not going to be revenging a whole lot of things with that SR weakness and toxic spikes/spikes vulnerability.

You are right that its just about the only way to win, but thats exactly why its broken. Because its the ONLY way to win, aside from a select few other strategies which the more experienced players will devise.

Edit: It's funny because, I have yet to have seen anybody mention any use of Shed Shell in this thread - but that's overcentralizing too, I'm sorry.

PS: Let's just keep up the bans, because I can assure you; nobody but Smogon drones are going to care. Especially those who participate in GF's tournaments (VGCs, namely) --which is frankly, all I play for. Otherwise, I'll be having me a casual time not worrying about bans. I was exactly like all of you at some point; but eventually realized how moronic Smogon's decisions have become.

[I Reckon You Silly!]

If you're going to ban everything, do you expect to see variety? Simple answer is no. players are going to use what obviously works best to the fullest extent in their teams. Banning them means little to nothing as there will always be something more centralizing to surface until there's a metagame utterly devoid of any variety and/or functional creativity (not gimmicks).

Now see, this is where I disagree with you. I purposely use Gimmicks in my standard playing OU and UU AND NU Teams, and proceed to destroy people with them. However, they tend to lose effectiveness after being seen the 2nd or 3rd time, as people plan around the gimmicks.

The aspect of surprise will always be a part of the meta-game, in my opinion. That's probably why I broke 1500 in Ubers running 4 NU's, lol. ( And the Two Ubers I ran were Mew and Kyogre.)

[Sonikku za Hejjihoggu]

Now see, this is where I disagree with you. I purposely use Gimmicks in my standard playing OU and UU AND NU Teams, and proceed to destroy people with them. However, they tend to lose effectiveness after being seen the 2nd or 3rd time, as people plan around the gimmicks.

The aspect of surprise will always be a part of the meta-game, in my opinion. That's probably why I broke 1500 in Ubers running 4 NU's, lol. ( And the Two Ubers I ran were Mew and Kyogre.)

It will surprise, yes. But far too often I've done such things unsuccessfully. That, or I just battle players who potentially see gimmicks coming far too often, lol.
But if done successfully, the reward could be could be pretty big and turn things in your favor.

[I Reckon You Silly!]

It will surprise, yes. But far too often I've done such things unsuccessfully. That, or I just battle players who potentially see gimmicks coming far too often, lol.
But if done successfully, the reward could be could be pretty big and turn things in your favor.

Correct.

It depends how smart the player you are facing is too. If they predict "Oh, this is probably your standard Ludicolo" and then all the sudden it's a Sword Dance Ludicolo, who then proceeds to sweep your entire team when I switch into your Physical Wall to force a "implied threat switch" my gimmick has succeeded, and I will now destroy your entire team.

Basic things like that. Some pokemon just have that implied "factor" that says "Oh hey, my most common set is [insert standard set here] and I just switched in like I'm an actual threat to you. Maybe you should switch out to a [supposed] counter of this [supposed] set.

It's all just a possibility guessing game. Nobody knows what you are playing as, as long as you can successfully pull a "fake threat" move.

For anyone who knows my boyfriend, he is well known for doing such "gimmicks" and pulling them off flawlessly.

[Blue Harvest]

You make it seem like this one pokemon is the end of the world...

I am still in complete awe.... how immature can people be about this game? Let's ban everything that makes a potential Revenge Killer, right?

No, lets ban something that executes the vast majority of Pokemon that don't run Shed Shell. Something that takes gimmicks and creativity and incinerates them.

Oh wait, my Stall Team isn't affected at all by Chandelure. IDGAF what happens to it. I've already come up with ideas to counter the Chandelure as we speak, and it is no threat to my team, whatsoever. She is prone to come in against certain things; and I have made those pokemon specific to counter her for my Stall Team. All it takes is a creative mind. As soon as a Damage Calculator for the 5th Generation comes out, I'll be able to test if this idea works; and I'm nearly 100% sure that it will, and is fool-proof.

So what you're saying is you think Shandera is not broken because of a team you haven't even tested?

Jesus christ. Maybe some people should learn how to play something -other- than Heavy Offense? Just a thought here, people.

I like how you assume you know me and how I play.

Honest to god, I don't see an issue with the pokemon itself. If the ability is a deciding factor in itself, then so be it. I have no altercation against banning this poor thing. I just believe people should be able to work around it... Perhaps that's asking too much.

Yes you can work around it, and yes in this case that is asking too much. Its too much when you must run Shed Shell on everything that can't survive a Shandera Overheat, which in case you haven't noticed is extremely powerful. Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and Hidden Power cover a massive range of targets. Very few things can stand Shandera's hits which constricts creativity.

Now see, this is where I disagree with you. I purposely use Gimmicks in my standard playing OU and UU AND NU Teams, and proceed to destroy people with them. However, they tend to lose effectiveness after being seen the 2nd or 3rd time, as people plan around the gimmicks.

Gimmicks should never surprise a good player. A good player considers all options and knows what most Pokemon are capable of to a reasonable extent.

The aspect of surprise will always be a part of the meta-game, in my opinion. That's probably why I broke 1500 in Ubers running 4 NU's, lol. ( And the Two Ubers I ran were Mew and Kyogre.)

What are those 4 NUs? Also what is your stall team. I'm curious to see how you are adapting to Shandera without using overly specialized sets.

Edit: What server were you on?

[I Reckon You Silly!]

No, lets ban something that executes the vast majority of Pokemon that don't run Shed Shell. Something that takes gimmicks and creativity and incinerates them.



So what you're saying is you think Shandera is not broken because of a team you haven't even tested?



I like how you assume you know me and how I play.



Yes you can work around it, and yes in this case that is asking too much. Its too much when you must run Shed Shell on everything that can't survive a Shandera Overheat, which in case you haven't noticed is extremely powerful. Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and Hidden Power cover a massive range of targets. Very few things can stand Shandera's hits which constricts creativity.



Gimmicks should never surprise a good player. A good player considers all options and knows what most Pokemon are capable of to a reasonable extent.



What are those 4 NUs? Also what is your stall team. I'm curious to see how you are adapting to Shandera without using overly specialized sets.

Edit: What server were you on?

I would have to ask my Boyfriend, as he posted that this morning, and just now, not the actual Reckon. XD He failed to log onto his account, haha.

However, I believe he was on Smogons Servers.

I'm going to PM you his "solution" to this threat. Give me a moment.

Edit: The 4 NU's he used were Sword Dance Ludicolo, Primeape, Regice, and Choice Scarf Glaceon. It shows how horrible a majority of the players over on Shoddy were, I guess.

[I Abuse Smeargles]

Sorry, I'll use my own account instead of my girlfriends to post from now on.

She PM'd you my solution to Chandelure. Id like to know what you think.

[Blue Harvest]

Its interesting but Payback doesn't KO without max attack and Stealth Rocks, in which case Shandera is going to do upwards of 70% to you. Also because you don't run Leftovers Shandera will probably not switch in at all since it will just assume you have Shed Shell.

[I Abuse Smeargles]

Yes, I see that now. Thank you for running the calculations, I appreciate it.

However, which set did you run? Overheat, Scarf, Modest I assume?

[Blue Harvest]

Overheat Scarf Timid.

[I Abuse Smeargles]

Oh god... I wouldn't want to see the Modest calculations. ><;

[Cometk]

It did what Wobbufett did fantastically, but it has more freedom. The only thing that could really bash Shanderra, was itself.

Shadow Tag doesn't trap other Shandera.

Shame, huh?

Also, why hasn't anyone brought up that Shandera was used on 40% of teams when it was banned from DW?

# 1 - Kyogre (23.97 %)

# 2 - Shandera (22.31 %)

# 3 - Groudon (21.11 %)

[Blue Harvest]

Also, why hasn't anyone brought up that Shandera was used on 40% of teams when it was banned from DW?

# 1 - Kyogre (23.97 %)

# 2 - Shandera (22.31 %)

# 3 - Groudon (21.11 %)

Because a lot of people here don't understand the concept of over-centralization.