OU without Shandera.

[Cometk]

Because a lot of people here don't understand the concept of over-centralization.

Harvest, why did you waste your 1,000 on this?

[Blue Harvest]

I don't know, its better than "You are required to post descriptions and EVs. PM them to me and I'll unlock this".

[Masteryoshimon]

Well to put out my insignificant 2 cents:

1 cent: Shandera Shadow Tag is an insane Revenge-killer, I've used it to destroy at least a third of a team

2 cent: It's not that inconvenient to counter Shandera, I have a Hydreigon that runs Surf. Usually, if I get revenge'd I send out my Hydreigon, they try to out speed me, and I murder it with Surf...but my team's a bit weird, so this may seem a bit of an inconvenience to most people

[Mewtwo_soul]

Well to put out my insignificant 2 cents:

1 cent: Shandera Shadow Tag is an insane Revenge-killer, I've used it to destroy at least a third of a team

2 cent: It's not that inconvenient to counter Shandera, I have a Hydreigon that runs Surf. Usually, if I get revenge'd I send out my Hydreigon, they try to out speed me, and I murder it with Surf...but my team's a bit weird, so this may seem a bit of an inconvenience to most people

1. No argument there.

2. That's not really the point. It could be argued that Darkrai is not that hard to put counters in a team for.

[Blue Harvest]

Actually thats not even countering. Shandera will switch in, kill something then escape unless you run a Pursuit Pokemon (basically the only viable options are Tyranitar and kind of Scizor / Snorlax).

Anyone can find something to scare off a Shandera, but only Pursuit gets rid of it for good.

[Masteryoshimon]

Actually thats not even countering. Shandera will switch in, kill something then escape unless you run a Pursuit Pokemon (basically the only viable options are Tyranitar and kind of Scizor / Snorlax).

Anyone can find something to scare off a Shandera, but only Pursuit gets rid of it for good.

What's considered a counter again? 'Cause my definition of a counter is something that can viably KO a Pokemon 90% of the time. So by my definition a Hydreigon running Surf is a counter to Shandera. From my experience, most people won't switch out their Shandera if I send out my Hydreigon, so the opportunity to OHKO is nearly always present.

My Hydreigon isn't supposed to scare it, it's supposed to kill it. If I wanted to scare it, a Swampert could do a good enough job.

Oh and to Mewtwo_soul, the point I'm trying to make is that Shandera isn't overpowered if a counter can be easily found and used.

[artbomber_97]

A "counter" means that it can switch-in on Shandera's attack easily, and immediately threatens the foe's Shandera. In your case, your Hydreigon is just a "check", not a "counter", because basically Shandera HAS NO COUNTER, SINCE NOTHING CAN SWITCH INTO IT DUE TO SHADOW TAG, BESIDES SHED SHELL POKEMON. So you can scare Shandera away, but each time Shandera comes in, it kills one of your pokemon and just switch out.

[Masteryoshimon]

A "counter" means that it can switch-in on Shandera's attack easily, and immediately threatens the foe's Shandera. In your case, your Hydreigon is just a "check", not a "counter", because basically Shandera HAS NO COUNTER, SINCE NOTHING CAN SWITCH INTO IT DUE TO SHADOW TAG, BESIDES SHED SHELL POKEMON. So you can scare Shandera away, but each time Shandera comes in, it kills one of your pokemon and just switch out.

Ah, thank you. That makes a lot more sense now.

In that case, then maybe we shouldn't focus on whether we can "counter" it. We could focus on, like you say, how to "check" it. If a Pokemon doesn't have a counter doesn't necessarily mean it's broken, wouldn't it be better to look at "checks?" And I think I mention this, a Shandera (from my experience) wouldn't switch out when faced with a Hydreigon. So it's not scaring it away...usually.

[Blue Harvest]

Ah, thank you. That makes a lot more sense now.

In that case, then maybe we shouldn't focus on whether we can "counter" it. We could focus on, like you say, how to "check" it. If a Pokemon doesn't have a counter doesn't necessarily mean it's broken, wouldn't it be better to look at "checks?" And I think I mention this, a Shandera (from my experience) wouldn't switch out when faced with a Hydreigon. So it's not scaring it away...usually.

With all due respect, thats because your opponents were likely terrible, or because it was late game and the Shandera stayed in as a sacrifice.

The problem with Shandera is that it switches in (it has lots of resistances, its not hard) kills something, then flees. Literally the only safe ways to remove shandera without crippling yourself with a team full of Shed Shells and Aqua Jets it to run a Tyranitar with Pursuit.

Probably 75% of my battles using Shandera I kill something, then TTar Pursuits me. The 25% it doesn't Shandera just kills, and kills and kills..

[SandTurtle]

The ability (shadow tag) should be banned. Why should I have to give all of my pokemon shed shells?