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Thread: OU without Shandera.

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by A d v e n t™ View Post
    It will surprise, yes. But far too often I've done such things unsuccessfully. That, or I just battle players who potentially see gimmicks coming far too often, lol.
    But if done successfully, the reward could be could be pretty big and turn things in your favor.
    Correct.

    It depends how smart the player you are facing is too. If they predict "Oh, this is probably your standard Ludicolo" and then all the sudden it's a Sword Dance Ludicolo, who then proceeds to sweep your entire team when I switch into your Physical Wall to force a "implied threat switch" my gimmick has succeeded, and I will now destroy your entire team.

    Basic things like that. Some pokemon just have that implied "factor" that says "Oh hey, my most common set is [insert standard set here] and I just switched in like I'm an actual threat to you. Maybe you should switch out to a [supposed] counter of this [supposed] set.

    It's all just a possibility guessing game. Nobody knows what you are playing as, as long as you can successfully pull a "fake threat" move.

    For anyone who knows my boyfriend, he is well known for doing such "gimmicks" and pulling them off flawlessly.

    -The Ultimate Lost Shadow-
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    If you need help with anything, please send me a Private Message. I am currently I Abuse Smeargles "student" and would be more than happy to help you.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Reckon You Silly! View Post
    You make it seem like this one pokemon is the end of the world...

    I am still in complete awe.... how immature can people be about this game? Let's ban everything that makes a potential Revenge Killer, right?
    No, lets ban something that executes the vast majority of Pokemon that don't run Shed Shell. Something that takes gimmicks and creativity and incinerates them.

    Oh wait, my Stall Team isn't affected at all by Chandelure. IDGAF what happens to it. I've already come up with ideas to counter the Chandelure as we speak, and it is no threat to my team, whatsoever. She is prone to come in against certain things; and I have made those pokemon specific to counter her for my Stall Team. All it takes is a creative mind. As soon as a Damage Calculator for the 5th Generation comes out, I'll be able to test if this idea works; and I'm nearly 100% sure that it will, and is fool-proof.
    So what you're saying is you think Shandera is not broken because of a team you haven't even tested?

    Jesus christ. Maybe some people should learn how to play something -other- than Heavy Offense? Just a thought here, people.
    I like how you assume you know me and how I play.

    Honest to god, I don't see an issue with the pokemon itself. If the ability is a deciding factor in itself, then so be it. I have no altercation against banning this poor thing. I just believe people should be able to work around it... Perhaps that's asking too much.
    Yes you can work around it, and yes in this case that is asking too much. Its too much when you must run Shed Shell on everything that can't survive a Shandera Overheat, which in case you haven't noticed is extremely powerful. Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and Hidden Power cover a massive range of targets. Very few things can stand Shandera's hits which constricts creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by I Reckon You Silly! View Post
    Now see, this is where I disagree with you. I purposely use Gimmicks in my standard playing OU and UU AND NU Teams, and proceed to destroy people with them. However, they tend to lose effectiveness after being seen the 2nd or 3rd time, as people plan around the gimmicks.
    Gimmicks should never surprise a good player. A good player considers all options and knows what most Pokemon are capable of to a reasonable extent.

    The aspect of surprise will always be a part of the meta-game, in my opinion. That's probably why I broke 1500 in Ubers running 4 NU's, lol. ( And the Two Ubers I ran were Mew and Kyogre.)
    What are those 4 NUs? Also what is your stall team. I'm curious to see how you are adapting to Shandera without using overly specialized sets.

    Edit: What server were you on?

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    No, lets ban something that executes the vast majority of Pokemon that don't run Shed Shell. Something that takes gimmicks and creativity and incinerates them.



    So what you're saying is you think Shandera is not broken because of a team you haven't even tested?



    I like how you assume you know me and how I play.



    Yes you can work around it, and yes in this case that is asking too much. Its too much when you must run Shed Shell on everything that can't survive a Shandera Overheat, which in case you haven't noticed is extremely powerful. Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and Hidden Power cover a massive range of targets. Very few things can stand Shandera's hits which constricts creativity.



    Gimmicks should never surprise a good player. A good player considers all options and knows what most Pokemon are capable of to a reasonable extent.



    What are those 4 NUs? Also what is your stall team. I'm curious to see how you are adapting to Shandera without using overly specialized sets.

    Edit: What server were you on?
    I would have to ask my Boyfriend, as he posted that this morning, and just now, not the actual Reckon. XD He failed to log onto his account, haha.

    However, I believe he was on Smogons Servers.

    I'm going to PM you his "solution" to this threat. Give me a moment.

    Edit: The 4 NU's he used were Sword Dance Ludicolo, Primeape, Regice, and Choice Scarf Glaceon. It shows how horrible a majority of the players over on Shoddy were, I guess.

    -The Ultimate Lost Shadow-
    Don't underestimate me, I'll prove to be your downfall.

    If you need help with anything, please send me a Private Message. I am currently I Abuse Smeargles "student" and would be more than happy to help you.

  4. #54

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    Sorry, I'll use my own account instead of my girlfriends to post from now on.

    She PM'd you my solution to Chandelure. Id like to know what you think.

  5. #55
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    Its interesting but Payback doesn't KO without max attack and Stealth Rocks, in which case Shandera is going to do upwards of 70% to you. Also because you don't run Leftovers Shandera will probably not switch in at all since it will just assume you have Shed Shell.

  6. #56

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    Yes, I see that now. Thank you for running the calculations, I appreciate it.

    However, which set did you run? Overheat, Scarf, Modest I assume?

  7. #57
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    Overheat Scarf Timid.

  8. #58

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    Oh god... I wouldn't want to see the Modest calculations. ><;

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonOwn View Post
    It did what Wobbufett did fantastically, but it has more freedom. The only thing that could really bash Shanderra, was itself.
    Shadow Tag doesn't trap other Shandera.

    Shame, huh?

    Also, why hasn't anyone brought up that Shandera was used on 40% of teams when it was banned from DW?

    # 1 - Kyogre (23.97 %)

    # 2 - Shandera (22.31 %)

    # 3 - Groudon (21.11 %)

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cometk View Post
    Also, why hasn't anyone brought up that Shandera was used on 40% of teams when it was banned from DW?

    # 1 - Kyogre (23.97 %)

    # 2 - Shandera (22.31 %)

    # 3 - Groudon (21.11 %)
    Because a lot of people here don't understand the concept of over-centralization.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Because a lot of people here don't understand the concept of over-centralization.
    Harvest, why did you waste your 1,000 on this?

  12. #62
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    I don't know, its better than "You are required to post descriptions and EVs. PM them to me and I'll unlock this".

  13. #63

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    Well to put out my insignificant 2 cents:

    1 cent: Shandera Shadow Tag is an insane Revenge-killer, I've used it to destroy at least a third of a team

    2 cent: It's not that inconvenient to counter Shandera, I have a Hydreigon that runs Surf. Usually, if I get revenge'd I send out my Hydreigon, they try to out speed me, and I murder it with Surf...but my team's a bit weird, so this may seem a bit of an inconvenience to most people


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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masteryoshimon View Post
    Well to put out my insignificant 2 cents:

    1 cent: Shandera Shadow Tag is an insane Revenge-killer, I've used it to destroy at least a third of a team

    2 cent: It's not that inconvenient to counter Shandera, I have a Hydreigon that runs Surf. Usually, if I get revenge'd I send out my Hydreigon, they try to out speed me, and I murder it with Surf...but my team's a bit weird, so this may seem a bit of an inconvenience to most people
    1. No argument there.

    2. That's not really the point. It could be argued that Darkrai is not that hard to put counters in a team for.
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  15. #65
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    Actually thats not even countering. Shandera will switch in, kill something then escape unless you run a Pursuit Pokemon (basically the only viable options are Tyranitar and kind of Scizor / Snorlax).

    Anyone can find something to scare off a Shandera, but only Pursuit gets rid of it for good.

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Actually thats not even countering. Shandera will switch in, kill something then escape unless you run a Pursuit Pokemon (basically the only viable options are Tyranitar and kind of Scizor / Snorlax).

    Anyone can find something to scare off a Shandera, but only Pursuit gets rid of it for good.
    What's considered a counter again? 'Cause my definition of a counter is something that can viably KO a Pokemon 90% of the time. So by my definition a Hydreigon running Surf is a counter to Shandera. From my experience, most people won't switch out their Shandera if I send out my Hydreigon, so the opportunity to OHKO is nearly always present.

    My Hydreigon isn't supposed to scare it, it's supposed to kill it. If I wanted to scare it, a Swampert could do a good enough job.

    Oh and to Mewtwo_soul, the point I'm trying to make is that Shandera isn't overpowered if a counter can be easily found and used.


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  17. #67
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    A "counter" means that it can switch-in on Shandera's attack easily, and immediately threatens the foe's Shandera. In your case, your Hydreigon is just a "check", not a "counter", because basically Shandera HAS NO COUNTER, SINCE NOTHING CAN SWITCH INTO IT DUE TO SHADOW TAG, BESIDES SHED SHELL POKEMON. So you can scare Shandera away, but each time Shandera comes in, it kills one of your pokemon and just switch out.
    I'm tired of signatures...

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by artbomber_97 View Post
    A "counter" means that it can switch-in on Shandera's attack easily, and immediately threatens the foe's Shandera. In your case, your Hydreigon is just a "check", not a "counter", because basically Shandera HAS NO COUNTER, SINCE NOTHING CAN SWITCH INTO IT DUE TO SHADOW TAG, BESIDES SHED SHELL POKEMON. So you can scare Shandera away, but each time Shandera comes in, it kills one of your pokemon and just switch out.
    Ah, thank you. That makes a lot more sense now.

    In that case, then maybe we shouldn't focus on whether we can "counter" it. We could focus on, like you say, how to "check" it. If a Pokemon doesn't have a counter doesn't necessarily mean it's broken, wouldn't it be better to look at "checks?" And I think I mention this, a Shandera (from my experience) wouldn't switch out when faced with a Hydreigon. So it's not scaring it away...usually.


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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masteryoshimon View Post
    Ah, thank you. That makes a lot more sense now.

    In that case, then maybe we shouldn't focus on whether we can "counter" it. We could focus on, like you say, how to "check" it. If a Pokemon doesn't have a counter doesn't necessarily mean it's broken, wouldn't it be better to look at "checks?" And I think I mention this, a Shandera (from my experience) wouldn't switch out when faced with a Hydreigon. So it's not scaring it away...usually.
    With all due respect, thats because your opponents were likely terrible, or because it was late game and the Shandera stayed in as a sacrifice.

    The problem with Shandera is that it switches in (it has lots of resistances, its not hard) kills something, then flees. Literally the only safe ways to remove shandera without crippling yourself with a team full of Shed Shells and Aqua Jets it to run a Tyranitar with Pursuit.

    Probably 75% of my battles using Shandera I kill something, then TTar Pursuits me. The 25% it doesn't Shandera just kills, and kills and kills..

  20. #70
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    The ability (shadow tag) should be banned. Why should I have to give all of my pokemon shed shells?
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