PO Tiers VS Smogon Tiers

[LightingKimba]

Both sites have some terrible members, but at least Smogon has the higher level skill to back it up. Pokemon Online has.. Kokoloko?

I wouldn't know the userbase there. :V I just know it's a site with a simulator on it, is all.

[zeroality]

I read the first couple of posts, and skimmed through the rest of the thread.

All I can say is, yes our tiering process hasn't been ideal thus far but we're doing the best we can. The best way to help change our tiers is to participate in discussions on the forums and to battle on the server.

Furthermore, there is extensive ongoing discussion about a new suspect nomination/voting process which should vastly improve things.

I'm not going to comment on whether one is better or the other (PO vs Smogon) because it honestly comes down to a matter of personal preference for the most part. I'm not the one to say which is right or which is wrong, and truthfully, neither is anyone else. Hopefully we'll be able to please a wider range of people with our new system.

If you prefer one over the other, then more power to you but there's no sense in going around needlessly bashing either system. Your energies would be better spent trying to help improve whichever one you believe is flawed. :)

Happy Pokemoning!

[pikamanepicfail45]

To me, I couldn't give less of a ****. Teirs are just something made up. If I made teirs, it would be by pokemon that actually suck. Look at Typhlosion for a minute. My favorite ****ing pokemon. Best Eruption Scarfed pokemon there is. Sure, Entei has the same speed, but its Special Attack sucks. He's better than Groudon. Since Groudon's ability can set up sun, 150x1.5x1.5=337.5 Base power. I say if I don't have to do it, I'm not going to do it. So suck it Smogon and PO.

[manav95]

The only thing wrong with Smogon is that many users on there are evil. The tiers for both sites are mostly similar anyway.

[~_Cloud_Strife_~]

Who's bound to screw up the tiers? Smogon took out Salamence AND Garchomp because they could NOT devise counters toward them.

[Cometk]

Who's bound to screw up the tiers? Smogon took out Salamence AND Garchomp because they could NOT devise counters toward them.

Scizor came into popularity because he could revenge-kill Salamence after Platinum came out. Weavile was also there to revenge-kill Garchomp in early D/P.

But the fact that these two pokemon were some of the only checks added to the fact that the Gen IV metagame was beginning to revolve around them. It was more overcentralization than anything else. And I can safely say good riddance, with them gone, Generation IV OU was and will be the most stable metagame probably ever.

[calze6]

They are not counters. They are checks. Neither can switch into mence's flamethrower.

[Cometk]

They are not counters. They are checks. Neither can switch into mence's flamethrower.

Yeah, I know, but you still get what I meant.

[blckshadow01515]

OK you are all complaining like little girls about how PO tiers suck at least they actually test pokemon out for their tiers when moving pokemon from OU to Uber and test pokemon on their Stats, Move-sets and abilities and not because they are very Overused a great example is Salamence he was not a huge threat to the meta-game but in a 15 man vote that took like a week to decide and was banned to ubers where he sucked Di*k and just became a waste of a Pokemon. PO at least tests their pokemon in both tiers to see if they belong in that tier and how large of a effect they have in their tiers they test counters that they have and who they counter and if they see that they aren't meta-game breakers they stay they aren't like Smogon where they just ban pokemon left and right just because people like to Bit*h that their teams cant fight 1 or 2 pokemon everyone has counters in their respective tiers and if they don't then they are moved into tiers that better suit them not just thrown in Ubers like its a place to hide pokemon that a few guys don't like fighting in standard play and if a pokemon is put down in UU it means nothing to OU play cause you can still use them and PO at least has a structure for their UU tiers unlike Smogon that just has 3 Major Tier labels for Pokemon Uber, OU, UU. PO just has a more thought out structured from of play its very obvious that they test their tiers more thoroughly than Smogon

[d0nut]

^
Ignorant post is ignorant.

Your saying Mence wasn't a threat in 4th gen OU? Sure it wasn't impossible to stop but it would usually manage to take down at least one of the opponents pokes without much prediction. The test on Mence lasted at least a month, not under a week so I don't know where you got those facts. Who cares that it doesn't stand out in Ubers. Ubers is for things that break OU not things which are good in Ubers, otherwise we would probably have Scizor and Forretress in 4th gen Ubers based on how well they did. Tbh PO's testing isn't even remotely close to Smogon's. You say its better but they actually spend LESS time testing as they usually spent a week or two for each suspect as opposed to Smogon who spends a miniumum of one month. PO uses a more casual voting method which is by definition less structured than Smogon's ladder requirement system. Also, people complaining about pokes don't get it banned. Tons of people complain about Reuniclus but it was voted OU overwhelmingly last time. Only players who do well enough on the ladder get to vote, and if they make it that high than they most likely know enough to vote.

I don't see what you are rambling about as far as UU is concerned. Smogon also has it to where you can use UUs in OU, and they always have, so they are no different from PO in that regard. The only difference between them right now is PO has started testing UU in 5th gen while Smogon has decided to focus on completing OU before working down. In other words they are trying to be more thorough, whereas PO are the ones who are rushing into UU.

I'm not saying PO's bad or anything, just that Smogon is better in terms of tiering systems. They also have better, and more serious competitive players than PO for the most part.

[DoubleJG3288]

I have followed Smogon's ever since I began obeying tier lists. Although I still raise competitive pokemon, I haven't done any wifi battling in a long time.

[calze6]

OK you are all complaining like little girls about how PO tiers suck at least they actually test pokemon out for their tiers when moving pokemon from OU to Uber and test pokemon on their Stats, Move-sets and abilities and not because they are very Overused a great example is Salamence he was not a huge threat to the meta-game but in a 15 man vote that took like a week to decide and was banned to ubers where he sucked Di*k and just became a waste of a Pokemon. PO at least tests their pokemon in both tiers to see if they belong in that tier and how large of a effect they have in their tiers they test counters that they have and who they counter and if they see that they aren't meta-game breakers they stay they aren't like Smogon where they just ban pokemon left and right just because people like to Bit*h that their teams cant fight 1 or 2 pokemon everyone has counters in their respective tiers and if they don't then they are moved into tiers that better suit them not just thrown in Ubers like its a place to hide pokemon that a few guys don't like fighting in standard play and if a pokemon is put down in UU it means nothing to OU play cause you can still use them and PO at least has a structure for their UU tiers unlike Smogon that just has 3 Major Tier labels for Pokemon Uber, OU, UU. PO just has a more thought out structured from of play its very obvious that they test their tiers more thoroughly than Smogon

Cool story bro. Smogon made NU and LC, btw. A poke that does well in a metagame is generally pretty good, imo.

[Fox Reeveheart]

I almost want to say tiers exist for a reason. I used to be kinda for, kinda against tiers. Now after playing so many random battles on the 5th gen random battle wi-fi I really see the need for tiers. Majority of fights all I see is a garchomp and other legendaries or psuedo-legendaries on EVERY SINGLE TEAM!

It's really starting to tick me off. I don't think anyone battles to enjoy it on there and instead just "plays to win" and picks anything and everything with giant base stat totals.

I hear PO tiers are based on usage percentages to a degree. Which would work "initially" but then people would just move onto the next best thing they can should what they used before be put out of the tier they had been using that particular pokemon in.

[artbomber_97]

OK you are all complaining like little girls about how PO tiers suck at least they actually test pokemon out for their tiers when moving pokemon from OU to Uber and test pokemon on their Stats, Move-sets and abilities and not because they are very Overused a great example is Salamence he was not a huge threat to the meta-game but in a 15 man vote that took like a week to decide and was banned to ubers where he sucked Di*k and just became a waste of a Pokemon. PO at least tests their pokemon in both tiers to see if they belong in that tier and how large of a effect they have in their tiers they test counters that they have and who they counter and if they see that they aren't meta-game breakers they stay they aren't like Smogon where they just ban pokemon left and right just because people like to Bit*h that their teams cant fight 1 or 2 pokemon everyone has counters in their respective tiers and if they don't then they are moved into tiers that better suit them not just thrown in Ubers like its a place to hide pokemon that a few guys don't like fighting in standard play and if a pokemon is put down in UU it means nothing to OU play cause you can still use them and PO at least has a structure for their UU tiers unlike Smogon that just has 3 Major Tier labels for Pokemon Uber, OU, UU. PO just has a more thought out structured from of play its very obvious that they test their tiers more thoroughly than Smogon

Man, you sound like a guy who was banned from Smogon or something. -.-. Please, this is an intelligent forum, with intelligent people and intelligent discussions, so be make more intelligent posts. So haven't heard the story? Lemme tell you something. Salamence was banned not because it was to hard to stop, but because it made the metagame somewhat unbalanced. Back to the day when Mence and Latias was around, the metagame was what they call the 3-dragon 3-steel metagame. It was boring when you just meet the same pokemon on every battle you have. So Smogon, with their best effort of trying to create a balanced competitive environment, banned Mence. And banning a pokemon from OU doesn't require you to playtest it in Uber. Uber is just a banlist, nobody cares how well that pokemon does in Uber.

[(Well) Then]

I almost want to say tiers exist for a reason. I used to be kinda for, kinda against tiers. Now after playing so many random battles on the 5th gen random battle wi-fi I really see the need for tiers. Majority of fights all I see is a garchomp and other legendaries or psuedo-legendaries on EVERY SINGLE TEAM!

It's really starting to tick me off. I don't think anyone battles to enjoy it on there and instead just "plays to win" and picks anything and everything with giant base stat totals.

I hear PO tiers are based on usage percentages to a degree. Which would work "initially" but then people would just move onto the next best thing they can should what they used before be put out of the tier they had been using that particular pokemon in.

When the US comes out with Ranked battles, the Free battles will be less clogged with such kinds of people.

I've played a lot of random matches, but still see no reason for tiers. If the game didn't ban it, I don't see why we have to ban something. (As by the logic of Sirlin's Playing to win, banning should be kept to a very bare minimum)

I've never really agreed with the Evasion Clause, and being able to use Double Team is a heavy relief and a wake-up call for people to use always-hit moves (I swear they're in the game for a reason!). Besides, DT on any pokemon takes up a bloody moveslot, can't be used with choice items, takes a turn to use (A turn isn't very long for some Pokemon), and doesn't always work!

I Also never liked that some people are deciding to ban Drizzle + Swift Swim, but the Pokemon with Drizzle doesn't have double Speed, so can't you Change the weather then (On the switch out to swift swim or while the Pokemon with Drizzle is out)? It's like carrying a Rock-type that loves Sandstorm, you might consider Actually putting Sandstorm on that Pokemon, if you don't, sorry that new Weather came up and your Sp. Def is screwed.

Now, I may be a bit uniformed &/or Biased. If there are major flaw's in my argument, Point them out nicely. (However, if you're argument is only about luck, I won't listen. Otherwise, I'll listen, I'm trying to argue like a human being!)

[Clubinhand]

Who's bound to screw up the tiers? Smogon took out Salamence AND Garchomp because they could NOT devise counters toward them.

I just want to say regaurding this I know mamoswine with thick fat is an almost complete counter against these guys. Mamoswine with thick fat can actually survive a fricken fireblast from shandera. So switching in on garchomp/ salmence fearing fire is not an issue unless it crits. Plus you ohok them with ice shard adamant as long as they don't hold yache berry.

@ (well) then

Wanting to ignoring the luck argument side of why double team and such is banned is dodging the issue like a politician. But here I'll give you another reason I can see it should stay banned. Every fricken poke can learn the damn move. Wait why is this a problem you ask well put it simply imagine this since every poke can learn the move it creates a heavy rift in the game where extreme stalling can occur anytime by any poke forcing most pokes to run a never miss move and possible negating other pokes that don't learn one out of the game entirely. Games would become extremely frustrating and way be way longer then necessary. A lot of the time in other games thing get banned simply to conserve time keeping things fun. We have all been in games where were stuck in a stall war neither side can make a move it can be very boring and annoying. Adding double team in the mix is inviting that situation for every poke vs poke match up.

Edit: I'm new to watching this tier system unfold. Right now from what I can tell this generation has invited a huge power creep with dream world abilities making setting up a tier system and such difficult and cannot be determined by raw who gets played the most kind of thing. Plus a lot of the new pokes are actually just good. I think that's better though then designing a bunch of pokes that cause no real change at least.

[Byzantine]

@ Clubinhand: Couldn't I make a similar argument about stealth rock, though? I mean the entire 4th gen OU tier was BASED around that single move, pokemon were relegated to NU for the simple reason of having a crippling stealth rock weakness. That one move thus forced out dozens of decent pokes in favor of ones that could take stealth rock and survive.

I don't see why they would ban evasion moves but not ban stealth rock, it ended up being the single move that defined the majority of the tiers.

[Clubinhand]

@ Clubinhand: Couldn't I make a similar argument about stealth rock, though? I mean the entire 4th gen OU tier was BASED around that single move, pokemon were relegated to NU for the simple reason of having a crippling stealth rock weakness. That one move thus forced out dozens of decent pokes in favor of ones that could take stealth rock and survive.

I don't see why they would ban evasion moves but not ban stealth rock, it ended up being the single move that defined the majority of the tiers.

OK there some major differences of what your pulling out of my argument and into your reasoning of why stealth rocks should be banned like wise. Also I don't mind the idea of being rid of stealth rocks and giving other pokes a better shot for the record. The major reason behind double team being banned by my reasoning without going into the subject of luck for what is supposed to be a competitive constructed tier system. Is that the games become way drawn out and over centralized for every poke since every poke can learn the move. That isn't the same as stealth rock not everything can learn stealth rock. Its not a move you want your whole team knowing. The second part that your confusing is stealth rocks does not drag out games like double team does. Now I will say this about stealth rocks, I feel it should at the very least be nerfed in how much damage it does.

[(Well) Then]

@ (well) then

Wanting to ignoring the luck argument side of why double team and such is banned is dodging the issue like a politician. But here I'll give you another reason I can see it should stay banned. Every fricken poke can learn the damn move. Wait why is this a problem you ask well put it simply imagine this since every poke can learn the move it creates a heavy rift in the game where extreme stalling can occur anytime by any poke forcing most pokes to run a never miss move and possible negating other pokes that don't learn one out of the game entirely. Games would become extremely frustrating and way be way longer then necessary. A lot of the time in other games thing get banned simply to conserve time keeping things fun. We have all been in games where were stuck in a stall war neither side can make a move it can be very boring and annoying. Adding double team in the mix is inviting that situation for every poke vs poke match up.

This Argument is great!

The Reason I'm dodging Luck in the argument is because Luck is in the game. You have to deal with luck in this game (Esp. Critical Hits, Paralysis, Move Accuracy). I don't want to hear anyone's argument on how unlucky they are.

Now, about those rocks...
People whom use Pokemon Weak to SR should really know that it really isn't as predominant in Real life. Many People are just starting Competitiveness in Gen 5 or don't want to go through the hassle of getting the SR TM Every time. So the only Pokemon that have SR are those that learn it by Level up and Breeding.

Full list of Fully evolved Pokemon that Learn SR This way: Steelix, Golem, Gigalinth, Crustle... Sudowoodo, Foretress, Mamoswine, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Probopass, Aggron, Cradily, Bastidiodon, Ferrothorn, Bisharp

Unless of course, you're a competing mastermind and WILL get that SR every time you want it. (It's not hard, since you just have to beat the 1st gym every time in D/P/Pt)

[Clubinhand]

This Argument is great!

The Reason I'm dodging Luck in the argument is because Luck is in the game. You have to deal with luck in this game (Esp. Critical Hits, Paralysis, Move Accuracy). I don't want to hear anyone's argument on how unlucky they are.

Now, about those rocks...
People whom use Pokemon Weak to SR should really know that it really isn't as predominant in Real life. Many People are just starting Competitiveness in Gen 5 or don't want to go through the hassle of getting the SR TM Every time. So the only Pokemon that have SR are those that learn it by Level up and Breeding.

Full list of Fully evolved Pokemon that Learn SR This way: Steelix, Golem, Gigalinth, Crustle... Sudowoodo, Foretress, Mamoswine, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Probopass, Aggron, Cradily, Bastidiodon, Ferrothorn, Bisharp

Unless of course, you're a competing mastermind and WILL get that SR every time you want it. (It's not hard, since you just have to beat the 1st gym every time in D/P/Pt)

Well were well off topic of the thread. Since I don't want to advocate stealth rocks cause I really wouldn't care if we were rid of them. I'll just end the conversation by saying its easier to obtain the TM for stealth rocks then that you can just buy it in kanto celdon department store from HG/SS. I guess its just that most people have there breeding center setup in their diamond/pearl game.