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Thread: Official Metagame Updates and Discussion Thread

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  1. #1
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    Default Official Metagame Updates and Discussion Thread

    Because the 5th gen is still new, everyone is testing new stuff and stradegies, the metagame is shifting and changing really fast, and therefore, I decided to make this thread for us to update any new changes to the tiering system, from either Smogon or Pokemon Online, and we can discuss those changes.

    So, here are the changes to the metagame done until this time:
    Smogon:
    ~ Inconsistent was banned from standard play.
    ~ Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N, and Shaymin-S were banned.
    ~ Inconsistent was banned in LC.
    ~ Drizzle + Swift Swim is banned, but Drizzle alone can still be used.
    ~ Manaphy is banned from OU.

    Pokemon Online:
    (As for PO, I only know the recent changes, because I wasn't there at the beginning of gen 5. Only started to join recently, since my computer was broken. So can you guys help me post the sooner changes, ok?)
    ~ Latios was banned from UU.
    ~ Inconsistent was banned from LC.
    ~ Drought Vulpix was banned from UU and LC.
    ~ Shadow Tag Shandera is test banned in one month time, from January 19th 2011 to February 19th 2011.
    ~ Mew, Deoxys, and Latias was banned from UU.

    Pokemon Online usage stats can be found here: http://91.121.73.228/index.html

    Also, can someone sticky this thread? I think this stuff is really important as tiering is the most important part to us competitive players. Thanks a lot.

    And finally, and most importantly, DO NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO A PLACE TO ARGUE WHEREVER PO TIERS OR SMOGON TIERS IS BETTER.

    Thank you very much guys.
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  2. #2
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    Very good idea. I'm going to go ahead and sticky this so people will see it. Just make sure to stay on topic when posting in here.

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    ~ Inconsistent was banned from standard play.
    Inconsistent was almost just like Accupressure, which they banned because of the + Evasion. And with it being x2 instead of x1.5, and no need to set up, just kill it already.

    ~ Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N, and Shaymin-S were banned.
    Happy days. If Smogon bans Sleep, I suppose it would be possible for Darkrai to come down to OU. Useless ability, Useless Signature move. Deoxys, and Shaymin belong in Ubers. Deoxys formes fill many roles, and while Shaymin, mostly as a revenge killer, is frail, Seed Flare > Serene Grace just makes it broken.

    ~ Inconsistent was banned in LC.

    I don't play LC often, this doesn't effect me. In fact, I completely forgot LC pokemon had Inconsistent.


    ~ Drizzle + Swift Swim is banned, but Drizzle alone can still be used.

    First part, good. Second Part, bad. Drizzle + Swift Swim is broken, by far, but Drizzle alone makes Nattorei and Forretress only stronger and more difficult to beat. Scizor will continue to run rampart through the metagame.


    ~ Manaphy is banned from OU.

    Good. +3 SpA was broken enough. Hydration + Rest just cuts the line. Vaporeon shouldn't be banned, since Manaphy has greater stats in general, and a +3 boost. Vaporeon can't hit hard like that, and all it gets is walling oppurtunities.


    First post before our (friendly?) neighborhood mod.

    Comments in bold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweep Freak View Post

    First part, good. Second Part, bad. Drizzle + Swift Swim is broken, by far, but Drizzle alone makes Nattorei and Forretress only stronger and more difficult to beat. Scizor will continue to run rampart through the metagame.
    Thats what Smogon banned. Drizzle + Swift Swim on the same team. Drizzle is still ok, as is Swift Swim. Just not together.

    That ban is why I prefer Smogon OU over PO.

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    Yeah I know. I'm saying Drizzle even without swift swim only makes certain threats more threatening.

    I was trying to say Rain has to be banned entirely.

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    Just to note that the Pokemon Online decided to open a poll for people to vote for Shandera being stayed in Dream World OU or banned to Ubers. The poll will close on this Friday, 25 February, and as soon as I got the result, I'll update it immediately. See more details or vote yourself here: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/show... Shandera Vote .
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    Ok guys, the vote is over, and Shadow Tag Shandera was voted to STAY in Dream World OU. This is annoying, I wanted that thing gone so bad -.-
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    Quote Originally Posted by artbomber_97 View Post
    Ok guys, the vote is over, and Shadow Tag Shandera was voted to STAY in Dream World OU. This is annoying, I wanted that thing gone so bad -.-
    Yeah, I hate that guy. It's too irritating when your opponent has a Pokemon who is almost guaranteed to kill something of yours.

    Also, I saw the PO had a tier called LU. Anyone know what that's about?

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    LU is the new tier that Pokemon Online created, refers to "Little Used". It's basically a tier between UU and NU or you can say a banlist for NU, but the NU tier hasn't been created yet, so this is NU atm. This tier is based on usage stats, and the cut-off between UU and LU is 3%. Borderline is also created after some suspect time. Here is the list of these tiers:
        Spoiler:- Borderline::

        Spoiler:- Dream World Underused::

        Spoiler:- Wifi Underused::

    And LU is everything that doesn't belong to Ubers, OU, BL and UU.

    Oh, and I use English names.

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    you forgot to mention that LU is complete rubbish
    <-----

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    No, it's not. It's a tier. And it's fun to play with, like every other tier.
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    Murkrow has been banned for a while on the PO LC Sever btw, their process is so rushed imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OMN's_SkyNet18 View Post
    Murkrow has been banned for a while on the PO LC Sever btw, their process is so rushed imo.
    I agree with this, I also think that smogon's system of banning is a bit too strict, as they all seem a bit ban happy, and are always on a crusade to ban something, the process smogon uses is efficient, but it could be quicker.
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    Ok new Pokemon Online updates:
    - Whimsicott and Ludicolo dropped to Dream World UU this month.
    - Blissey, Lucario, Swampert, Togekiss and Venusaur became Dream World OU.
    - Charizard, Espeon and Ludicolo dropped to Wifi UU.

    And yeah, PO is REALLY rushing on their process on the tiering system, their tiers changes every month. But somehow I like the dynamic changes of PO, they makes the metagame always unstable and hard to predict. Anyway, I just play Uber so that I can never be affected by these complicated metagame stuff. lol
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    I couldn't give the slightest **** about what happens with UU/LU/NU since they will develop into their own metagames and are based off usage stats anyway.

    What I'm more interested in is the ongoing Shandera debate (no, its not over just because of one vote). The way things are going Shandera will be voted on again in a ~month but this time with ladder voting requirements. I suggested 1400 since thats reasonably difficult to achieve for bad / average players but PO is community based (as in everyone gets a say in bans) so I'd expect something more like 1300 is more likely.

    Either way I'm voting it Uber. I broke 1500 easy with 6 random sweepers in Wifi so assuming Dream World is similar I should get voting rights.

  16. #16

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    So -only- Shadow Tag Chandelure is banned? Is that correct?

    You can still use Flash Fire in UU? (Cause that's what I was gonna do anyhow, lol.)

    Sorry for the noob question, haha.

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    Shadow Tag Chandelure is currently NOT banned from Dream World OU, but a second-round vote is coming. And no one gives a damn about Flash Fire variant.
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    Update from PO: After some suspect time, Azelf is banned from UU, and Chansey is in a testing period.
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    Since this hasn't been updated I'll just post here saying that at Smogon Murkrow was banned in LC, Brightpowder/Lax Incense was banned, and Blaziken has been banned in OU.

    Also note that Latios and Deoxys-S were both voted uber by simple majority so they will automatically be suspects next round.
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    and Blaziken has been banned in OU.
    Huh? Why's that?

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Huh? Why's that?
    Speed Boost made him too fast for his own good apparently. Besides, after a Swords Dance, I can't think of anything that can reliably counter him besides Slowbro. Hi Jump Kick, Flare Blitz, or Stone Edge can OHKO just about everything else in OU when he sets up and after a few turns outspeeding him is impossible. The only reliable way to revenge kill him is priority, though he resists Scizor's Bullet Punch and I'm sure he can take Conkeldurr's Mach Punch if he hasn't taken much residual damage. There might be other reasons, though I was too busy this last round to participate much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    Since this hasn't been updated I'll just post here saying that at Smogon Murkrow was banned in LC, Brightpowder/Lax Incense was banned, and Blaziken has been banned in OU.

    Also note that Latios and Deoxys-S were both voted uber by simple majority so they will automatically be suspects next round.
    Confirmed. Thanks for updating this for me.

    Also, I feel that the Blaziken ban was a correct decision, since every Blaziken can easily get to +2 Attack and +1 Speed, and priorities don't hit it hard enough to KO at full health (resists Bullet Punch, Conkeldurr can't OHKO at full health with Mach Punch, and Aqua Jet is kinda rare). It's only reliable check for +1 Blaziken is Sand Rush Excadrill, but if Blaziken got to +2, it reaches 568 Speed with a + Speed nature, outspeeding Adamant 216 Spd Excadrill, and it's pretty much gg. The only way to stop Blaziken is to predict Hi Jump Kick and switches a Ghost in, so that it crashes and loses a chunk of HP. But there's no true counters for it, so banning it was a right decision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by artbomber_97 View Post
    Also, I feel that the Blaziken ban was a correct decision, since every Blaziken can easily get to +2 Attack and +1 Speed, and priorities don't hit it hard enough to KO at full health (resists Bullet Punch, Conkeldurr can't OHKO at full health with Mach Punch, and Aqua Jet is kinda rare). It's only reliable check for +1 Blaziken is Sand Rush Excadrill, but if Blaziken got to +2, it reaches 568 Speed with a + Speed nature, outspeeding Adamant 216 Spd Excadrill, and it's pretty much gg. The only way to stop Blaziken is to predict Hi Jump Kick and switches a Ghost in, so that it crashes and loses a chunk of HP. But there's no true counters for it, so banning it was a right decision.
    And thus is why they say "Smogon bans what they can't kill in one hit." Am I glad that I don't follow their rules...or anyone else's for that matter.

    I'll use whatever the heck I want, thanks. I wanna have fun with Pokemon, not kill the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight Gallade View Post
    And thus is why they say "Smogon bans what they can't kill in one hit." Am I glad that I don't follow their rules...or anyone else's for that matter.

    I'll use whatever the heck I want, thanks. I wanna have fun with Pokemon, not kill the game.
    They didn't ban it because you can't kill it in one hit. You can easily kill Blaziken in one hit. The problem is hitting it and killing it before it kills you. +2 Blaziken literally 2HKOs the game (except perhaps a select few), and can OHKO a huge number of Pokemon after entry hazards. It's also very hard to outspeed after just one turn, and nearly impossible after two. Now, if that seems fair to you, then that's your beef. But we competitive players prefer to keep things a little more balanced, thank you very much.

    I was pretty bummed out that Blaziken got banned at first, but then I realized that he can actually take stuff out easily in Ubers, too. Just for fun, I ran some calcs on an SD Blaziken vs. the mighty Kyorge. The results were amazing. A +2 LO Adamant Blaziken has the power to OHKO a 4/0 Modest Kyorge with Hi Jump Kick---twice! Even a Jolly Blaziken does a ton of damage to a bulky Kyorge. A 252/252 Bold Kyorge will survive Jolly Blaziken's Hi Jump kick with 1% health at best, and no one even runs sets that bulky on Kyorge. Heck, I've found that a set of Swords Dance/Hi Jump Kick/Shadow Claw/Protect works just fine in Ubers.

    I'm also glad that Smogon finally got a UU tier started. Considering Smogon's usage results seem a little more reliable than Pokemon Online's as a whole, I'm interested to see how their UU tier ends up when it balances out.

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    I've never had much trouble with SB Blaziken, TBH. Maybe that was because everyhting on most of my teams could either cripple it or 1HKO it it tried to SD.

    If I could Toxic it on the SD, I then used Alomomola to Wish Stall it until it stopped moving (Even at +2, HJK is still a 2HKO). It knew Protect too, which gives a chance of HJK crashing. I did a similar thing on other teams with Cofagrigus, except instead of Wish I'd just Hex it for the KO.
    Speed Boost Yanmega always beat it 1 on 1 also. Even if I switched it in, as long as its Sash was intact, Air Slash destroyed it.

    Also, has anyone considered Haze Vaporeon, or just Haze altogether? Heck, why not just ban Swords Dance on it, as all the arguments I've seen seem to assume that it starts at +2 Attack and enough Speed Boosts to outspeed everything.

    Eh, I missed all the arguments.

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