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Thread: Paul's Epilogue: aka, Getting Away With Murder

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathseer View Post
    We all know that under different circumstances, Ash would have lost that battle. Time and time again, Ash got his *** handed to him on a silver platter by Paul. And not in close battles, he lost outright in every one of them. Now the League comes and Ash is suddenly better? Doesn't make sense does it?(Mind you with a super plot hax Infernape, a suckish Torterra, a Buizel that has lost every battle up to this point, a Staraptor that was forgettable at best, an inconsistent Pikachu, and a Gliscor that he halfway trained). Had Ash not been there solely for promotion, Paul would have beaten him just as before. The battle was nothing more than to paint Infernape as some god that can't be brought down, just because he absolutely sucked under one Trainer that wasn't pleased with its performance. Paul had it right, you don't have to like EVERY Pokemon that you catch. It wasn't doing well, so he cut his losses, simple as that.
    Is this a joke? All of Ash's Pokemon were well prepared for that battle.

    The only one of Paul's Pokemon Ash never beat was his Torterra and Magmortar, (importance wise), and I don't see why he couldn't have taken them down.

    Ash already took out all his other pokemon at one time or another, besides ones that had no importance to the rivalry like Paul's Gliscor, Hariyama or Nidoking. Besides Paul likely had tons of other pokemon we don't know about, so it didn't matter.

    And I don't see what the hell you mean with Infernape. The first two Pokemon it took down was an Aggron and Ninjask, two Pokemon Infernape has an advantage over anyway.

    I'd also say by the end Infernape and Electrivire were evenly matched, so it was a good deciding final victory.

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    Ok so explain:

    Buizel : Since its win against Fantina, it lost every battle except against a random COTD

    Torterra: Same as Buizel, Since evolving, it lost every single battle.

    Staraptor: Hadn't had a single battle since Snowpoint until Nando

    Gliscor: Given away for training and comes back stronger, hardly any of that merit goes to Ash

    Infernape: Super plot death monkey. Painted in a way so that it couldn't lose. Sort of excused, but barely

    Pikachu: Constantly inconsistent. Lost throughout most of Sinnoh except against Team Rocket. Gets random powerup for League then subsequently loses to inferior Pokemon afterwards, as if that strength was non-existent.

    So out of all of these, Gliscor and Infernape were the only ones actually "prepared" for the battle. Gliscor just got back from training and Infernape was made out as the Pokemon that couldn't lose no matter what.

    Other than those two, new moves or not, they were terribly inconsistent and lost battle after battle up until the League. Going into the league, a lot of his Pokemon were ill prepared. And then all of as sudden they are able to beat the same person that beat them down on numerous occasions.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathseer View Post
    Buizel : Since its win against Fantina, it lost every battle except against a random COTD
    So? It had tons of victories in the series as well. Likewise its win had it use its main skills:

    - Ice aqua jet
    - Spinning water thing (forgot what it was called)
    - Ice Punch

    Torterra: Same as Buizel, Since evolving, it lost every single battle.
    Torterra lost to Bertha (where anyone would have lost), and Volkner at that point. A grand total of two.

    Staraptor: Hadn't had a single battle since Snowpoint until Nando
    Staraptor didn't get a win this match, but it put up a good fight before going down, even saving itself from an early loss.

    Gliscor: Given away for training and comes back stronger, hardly any of that merit goes to Ash
    Same as Charizard really. *shrug*

    Infernape: Super plot death monkey. Painted in a way so that it couldn't lose. Sort of excused, but barely
    Again, what was the problem? Infernape and Electrivire were evenly matched, that cannot be denied. And Infernape just barely won.

    Also, Infernape was a lot stronger than Aggron or Ninjask regardless.

    Pikachu: Constantly inconsistent. Lost throughout most of Sinnoh except against Team Rocket. Gets random powerup for League then subsequently loses to inferior Pokemon afterwards, as if that strength was non-existent.
    And Pikachu taking out Froslass with Volt Tackle was well done and perfectly reasonable.

    Other than those two, new moves or not, they were terribly inconsistent and lost battle after battle up until the League. Going into the league, a lot of his Pokemon were ill prepared. And then all of as sudden they are able to beat the same person that beat them down on numerous occasions.
    Keep in mind we hardly see any of Paul's fights when he's off-screen. Its not like Paul was this, "godly trainer," either. His Pokemon lost plenty of matches.

    Even the ones that constantly swept matches, like Ursaring and Drapion, were taken down.

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    Whoa deathseer chill out man. I think a lot of us can agree that Paul is just plain better on the battlefield than Ash.

    Now I think Paul didn't get away with murder because Chimchar was very much alive when he left and so is Ash. As for his treatment, he went about the wrong way to activate Blaze. That is Paul's single greatest mistake with Chimchar is his over focus on Blaze instead of developing Chimchar like his other pokemon. Chimchar won Paul a lot of gym battles... well a few anyways and Paul let him go to Ash who will most likely never use him again for the next 600 episodes.

    The cruelest thing I have seen Paul do to Chimchar was to not heal it before releasing it. During the double battle Chimchar was scared of the Zangoose and Paul grew angry at it for not attacking. Paul simply did not understand why Chimchar would be afraid and remember Paul did not save Chimchar, he just saw it's Blaze and the caught it so I think Paul did not really know about the Zangoose hunting down Chimchar.

    I wouldn't call Chimchar a baby deethseer, yes he cried a lot as a Chimchar but when you have been shown more affection rather than pure "do this or else attitude" you tend to get teary in happiness.

    All in all Paul did not do anything bad outright, if Chimchar was crippled or dead then it would be a big deal. But other than releasing it Paul didn't do anything out of the ordinary for someone training their pokemon seriously. Ash copied Paul when he had his pokemon all attack Grotle so saying Paul did that to Chimchar is a mootpoint especially when Chimchar agreed to it.

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    The bashing of Chimchar in this topic is getting ridiculous. Paul put Chimchar through a lot.

    You people need to get over yourselves with this Chimchar hate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathseer View Post
    Maybe because he didn't do anything wrong.
    Don't you think he could have been a little better about it, though?
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    Whether or not, Paul is a better trainer than Ash, or who takes training more seriously than who. They are still in the same boat in terms of their goal.

    Paul has still lost 4 leagues just like Ash. They both are peons relative to the Elite 4, and Champions out there.

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    @OP: Is that an epiphany I see on the thread title? "Getting away with murder"? Oh puh-liz, gimme a break. Paul didn't even lay a hand on Chimchar, unlike Damian who physically abused Charmander (Damian got blasted off anyway like he deserved), but you're treating him like he's an prison escapee or something.

    Just be glad that Paul learned his lesson by the end of Ash vs. Paul rivalry arc, though the majority of the fanbase was expecting it anyway. If it was not because of the plot device, and if Ash got his arse handed over to him by Paul in the league battle, that would have made more sense and would have been more realistic, since Paul was always the better trainer than Ash. Chimchar didn't deserve to be in Paul's team. The careless, aimless spot in Ash's team suits it more. Just imagine how many more matches Paul would have lost to Ash had he still carried the burden of that monkey!
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    I still would like to see any mention of Paul's "cruelty". Keep in mind that this is a show intended for kids, so showing outright abuse or cruelty is definitely a red flag. And besides, "abuse" is what A.J. was doing to his Pokemon. He himself physically assaulted his Pokemon. What people try to define as cruel is just Paul being a strict trainer. He doesn't take any crap form his Pokemon and refuses to let them slack off. If he sees a weak link, it is expendable. He doesn't have time for his Pokemon not being focused and getting left behind.
    I just gave you one. Aside from all the stuff you see in his dreams and flashbacks in Tears for Fears, there's also the very real example of Paul getting four of his strongest Pokemon to attack it at once. That is cruel. You don't get to debate that, it is.

    Most of Ash's "disgust" was seeing something fundamentally different than what he knows. Most Trainers he encounters are like him. Being always nice to your Pokemon, treating them as your friends. Then Paul's comes along and is pretty much like "My Pokemon aren't my friends, they are my means to becoming a Pokemon Master". Ash's disgust is most likely him not being used to seeing Pokemon not being trained by conventional means mostly him being "How dare he not treat his Pokemon the same way I do".
    There's no doubt Ash is more than a little self-righteous but at the same time, Paul was a complete jerk to his Pokemon. He was horrible to them. It wasn't like with Gary, who caught loads of Pokemon and never really got a chance to build a relationship with any of them, Paul was actively mean to the Pokemon he had. That's why Ash was disgusted, and rightly so. You seem to be downplaying the extent to which Paul was a jerk. For instance, his Starly won against Ash's Starly and he insulted it, then released it.

    And Paul didn't mention that he went over the top. He said Chimchar WANTED that kind of training. Paul didn't force it to, nor did he beat it into submission for it to agree. It saw how Paul's other Pokemon got stronger and wanted the same treatment, only for it to realized that it wasn't up to snuff to keep up with the rest of them. It's the equivalent of it realizing that he was in over his head and being left behind. He wanted the training and quit when it couldn't perform. That's why Paul views it as weak.
    You seem to be making some stuff up here. And Chimchar certainly didn't quit, it was "fired" by Paul and released.

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    You people need to get over yourselves with this Chimchar hate.
    Chimchar/Infernape hate has kicked into overdrive ever since it starred in the Volkner battle. People saw that battle as Torterra or even Gible's time to shine, and then Infernape of all Pokemon came and stole the spotlight again. That's the moment I remember this forum really going into overdrive on the Infernape hate, since it was hogging so much screentime. Wasn't helped when Torterra went down without a win, either. That was Infernape's fault too.

    Personally I think Infernape can have as much screentime as he wants. None of the other Pokemon in Ash's team had a story as good as his.

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    What people need to understand is that all pokemon trainers are different. They all aren't going to be the goody too shoes Ash is..


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    i was actually researching a lot about Ash and Pauls rivalry last year, and i think ive come to the end of it now, but thier rivalry was so interesting not only that i liked thier rivalry, im an ikarishipper aswell

    and i found loads of things of connectoins between the three of them XD
    not only (well espiecially in ash and paul)
    my theory:

    "When every life meets another life. Something will be born?"
    It is a connectoin.

    when i thought of connectoin, i thought of WIFI and remembered that connects, and then i thought of the gameboy --link cable-- and i thought
    the link cable is what the creaters had based pokemon on--- so i think under our noses they liturally were talking about the begining of pokemon!

    so saying that cynthia's words are true.

    one main connectoin i found about thier rivalry was what reggie once said

    that ash and paul were like the heads and tails of a coin and it wasnt till after i rewatched A-MAZE-ING RACE! i got it

    in that episode dawn wanted the "Coin Toss"app and i certinally remembered that saying and thats when i had this idea that they are both like a coin they both have even chances of winning--and i recently found out it also depends of the person who's flipping it and emotoins---and this where dawn comes into it...

    Think of it as a human coin toss!

    Before the sinnoh league paul opened up to dawn showing his emotoins this is why i think he lost to ash (in a good way) this did him good though!---showing his emotoins and respect

    I think he is a great charecter!!

    there is something else i found that suprisingly no-one noticed or said about
    and its hidden in the tag battle tornament,

    I rewatched this too and found that paul liked ash's countershield stratergy and was trying use it with chimchar, (it was the scene where he was using all the attacks on chimchar) then Ash buted into the scene so we didnt see anything, but the counter shield backfired on him and thats why he got rid of it.

    has he got away with murder?----no

    what do you think?
    Last edited by RocketTwurpSLR; 8th March 2011 at 10:19 PM. Reason: spelling mistakes

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    See, there's actually nothing wrong with being strict. The problem is that Paul tends to be cruel, and it's possible to be strict without the cruelty.

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    Paul is merely strict. I don't see why everyone believes that Chimchar got different treatment than the rest of them. As if Paul outright abused Chimchar. It's training was no different than that of Torterra or Honchkrow. The difference is Chimchar couldn't handle it.

    Yet people try to make it out as Paul simply ordering all his Pokemon to nuke Chimchar in the hopes of activating Blaze. That Paul himself struck Chimchar across the face because he couldn't perform. He merely conducted his training in the same manner as the others, which his other Pokemon seem to have no problem with.

    If he was disappointed with a Pokemon's performance, he either would show his discontent or release them. He didn't abuse them or was cruel. He was upset with their performance and gave his reaction. What was so cruel about that? Releasing a Pokemon because you aren't satisfied with it is perfectly fine and within a Pokemon Trainers rights. As with Honchkrow, despite it failing against Staraptor in the PokeRinger, he didn't strike it across the face or order all of his Pokemon to attack it. He was not happy with its performance and neither was Honchkrow. Even after Ursaring went down after taking down most of Ash's Pokemon, he didn't yell at it. He seemed okay with it. Produce results, then you don't get his cold indifference.

    Paul is just a strict Trainer who has no time for slackers. He believes that receiving praise makes you soft, not performing up to task makes you expendable, and constant failure deserves no encouragement. He isn't here to baby you or be your friend. Either you get on board or get out of the way.
    Last edited by deathseer; 9th March 2011 at 1:36 AM.
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    If you use sport as an example, and Ash as a head coach and his Pokemon as his players, he would be languishing down the bottom of the table and Paul's team would be in the upper brackets. You need to be strict and assertive like Paul to have a successful team. Then as DP went on Ash became much more serious with his training and we saw the result of that.
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    After Paul's defeat, I'd expect him to get a heal face change just like Silver - since the two share similar traits, but no, he's still the same ole same ole.

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    Ok, I conceed that he was merely strict, but:

    A. The fact that even his other Pokemon fail prove that his method isn't perfect.
    B. Praising or complementing someone doesn't always equal babying them.

    I mean, Lance and Cynthia clearly are caring towards their Pokemon and they are both high leveled trainers.

    Now I'm willing to agree that his strictness isn't a wrong way to train, but Ash's method isn't wrong either. Heck, I'd even argue that it would be better to apply the best of Ash and Paul's method depending on the circumstances.
    Last edited by Antiyonder; 9th March 2011 at 6:01 AM.

  18. #43

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    There have been strict and harsh trainers in the series. However, they usually come in two types.

    The first is the type that is unrelenting as a trainer but still deeply cares for his Pokemon. A.J. is a good example of this, for while he works his Pokemon to the ground, he still loves them deeply, and is loved in turn.

    The second type is the arrogant trainer who has no respect for the sanctity of a trainer-Pokemon bond, and truly treats any Pokemon encountered like tools- often worthless tools at that. Examples of this class include Damien and Koji.

    The important thing is that both types project the moral of caring for Pokemon. Trainers like A.J. are initially viewed as mean until their gentler side becomes apparent, showing that they still care about Pokemon in their own way. Ones that unrepentently view Pokemon as filth inevitably meet their just deserts with defeat, often at the hands of the Pokemon they abused. Therefore, the overall theme is that no matter what the training method is, the trainer must share a bond with his Pokemon.

    Paul does not fit the archetype of this moral. He shows no repentance for the lack of love for his Pokemon. He had already given up on Chimchar when it faltered in the battle with Zangoose, and would have left it to certain defeat if it wasn't for Ash. Then he abandons it much like other bad trainers have in past episodes. The problem is that he never truly faces justice for his abuses. In fact, by the end his outlook is simply attributed to his style, disregarding that he added his own element of true callousness to training.

    Personally, I felt that Paul was initially set up, like Hunter J, to be a counter to the show's morals. Such a conflict would certainly give the story drama. However, the full moral disparity was gradually forgotten, leaving his abuses as an unfinished plot.

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    paul respects the strong, and i dont think he abuses them at all, hence the why he releases them--i think is because he wanted to get strong fast (hunger for fame) yes he is a meanie but that is just to make sure he's pokemon are in tip top shape (kinda like a personal trainer)

    i cant see him doing anything like AJ did, Ash would have puched him in the face if he did

    he chose chimchar to go with him because he pointed out its strong point
    --i dont think for 1 minute that he was abusing chimchar i think he was trying out ash's counter shield statergy!
    (you'll know what im on about if you rewatch dp51)

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    I consider abuse to include abandonment, especially when it is non-consensual. Ash has released many of his Pokemon, but for the most part because they wanted to; in those cases, it is more of letting them go to pursue their own lives. Usually trainers who simply release their Pokemon are viewed harshly, such as in the case of Damien. What strikes me the most about Paul is that he cares nothing for his Pokemon. Even Gary- who caught first, asked questions later- showed concern for his Pokemon's wellbeing. Paul on the other hand treats his Pokemon as tools. That callous attitude is the main reason I despise him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathseer View Post
    I still would like to see any mention of Paul's "cruelty". Keep in mind that this is a show intended for kids, so showing outright abuse or cruelty is definitely a red flag. And besides, "abuse" is what A.J. was doing to his Pokemon. He himself physically assaulted his Pokemon. What people try to define as cruel is just Paul being a strict trainer. He doesn't take any crap form his Pokemon and refuses to let them slack off. If he sees a weak link, it is expendable. He doesn't have time for his Pokemon not being focused and getting left behind.
    UM, SIR, NO.

    This has been countered a bit, but. You've made a ton of good points defending Paul's training strategies, yet you call A.J. abusive? If anything, A.J.'s training is far less damaging than Paul's. A.J. had his pokemon wear macho braces and train - which is perfectly normal - and the only dubious thing he did was get Sandshrew to go into the water to build up its defenses. Even still, Sandshrew was never held underwater for too long and it was perfectly fine and healthy. Moreover, A.J. loved and praised his pokemon, and the feelings were returned, which was obvious by their embrace after Sandshrew was saved from Team Rocket. And he never "physically assaulted them himself". I never saw him punching rattata.

    BACK TO PAUL, I have not yet seen the end of DP but I know what happens, pretty much. So what if he never got what he, in some people's opinion, may have deserved? It doesn't always happen in real life, and it shouldn't have to happen in fiction. He seems to have learned and accepted that there may be other ways to go about training, and he isn't really that abusive of a trainer. If anything, he's just a jerk and incredibly arrogant, which seems to be changing in him by the end. There's really no reason for him to get a "karmic backlash" or anything.
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    Paul wasn't hated because of his harsher and unorthodox methods.He was hated because he pushed his Pokemon beyond their breaking point,treat them like tools(even though the anime clearly shows them as intelligent),and was a jerk to everyone around him,sans the Pokequivelant of celebrities.Yeah,Infernape was the one who defeated him,but it just doesn't feel enough punishment.A better punishment is a rebellion of every one of his Pokemon against him-except his Electivire,who's as much of a jerk as Paul.

    Of course,Tobias would be considered more of an a-hole if he had dimensions(he does not,so hatred to him goes directly to the writers).So,with rivals,we're stuck with a version of Silver that will never see the light,a hyperactive child,some musician and a plot device.I hope they make Trip less of a jerk.Of course,they've got a while for that,seeing as how he's only appeared in like a few eps
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    right as you say, that he may have realesed chimchar, but i dont think he abandoned it on purpose

    i rekon because he released it i think he knew it will be better in ash's hands
    so i think this is a way he did it withhout making him loking like a good guy

    i think the writers write his story realy brilliant.

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  24. #49

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    Paul had no concern for Chimchar's future. I saw the episode, and it's clear that he simply wished to release it and leave without any concern for what Chimchar would do next. Chimchar was just lucky that Ash and the party showed up in time to witness the abandonment; otherwise, Chimchar would have been all alone. Though Chimchar might have ended up with Team Rocket still, given that they moved in right after Paul left; that alternate reality would probably make a good story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataquack Warrior View Post
    Paul had no concern for Chimchar's future. I saw the episode, and it's clear that he simply wished to release it and leave without any concern for what Chimchar would do next. Chimchar was just lucky that Ash and the party showed up in time to witness the abandonment; otherwise, Chimchar would have been all alone. Though Chimchar might have ended up with Team Rocket still, given that they moved in right after Paul left; that alternate reality would probably make a good story.
    i would watch the episode again just to proove my theory, its intersting but its probably a good explanatoin, paul did use the counter shileld in the sinnoh league against ash at least--so this could of been a starting point
    (i think the writers made ash but in on purpose to make it look like he was abusing chimchar but acctually trying the counter shield)

    -ash uses counter shield in the tag tournament
    -paul gets inspired and try it out
    -ash buts in think he is abusing it and being sarcastic
    -fails CS with chimchar and releases it
    -ash gains it
    3 seasons later-----
    --paul uses the counter shield stratergy in the sinnoh league

    i made a vid on this somewhere!

    so thats my theory

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