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Thread: Zoroark & Gengar (Future Uber tier?)

  1. #1
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    Default Zoroark & Gengar (Future Uber tier?)

    So, anyway, with Zoroark's illusion ability able to play mind games on the opponent, we're able to use gengar as our last pokemon so as to trick people into using psychic type moves, to find no effect, at this time zoroark would've already set up, and considering it can outspeed most of the 5th gen pokemon, would take out the opposing side fairly quickly.

    What I am saying is, this matchup is extremely powerful and mind-boggling (literally) so, is it worthy of becoming Uber Tier because of this? or will it just stay OU?

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    Zoroark isn't Uber. Its not OU either. lol, its not even UU.

    Hes kind of sneaky and once in a while might get a kill but he can't switch in at all and due to the common team preview Zoroark's disguise isn't enough to save him.

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    Zoroark is too frail for Ubers. Try fighting a Zoroark against a Zekrom. It just wouldn't work. Sure, it's fast, but just not bulky enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonOwn View Post
    Zoroark is too frail for Ubers. Try fighting a Zoroark against a Zekrom. It just wouldn't work. Sure, it's fast, but just not bulky enough.
    How well a Pokemon performs in Ubers does not make a Pokemon Uber. It is how dangerous they are in standard play. Not that I'm saying Zoroark or Gengar should be Uber or anything.
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    Gengar isn't a good partner, anyways. Once your opponent sees that your "Gengar" gets hurt by Spikes or poisoned by Toxic Spikes, they'll know it's a Zoroark. Infernape, for one, makes a much better partner.

    Trust me, people have suggested this same match up before. If it were truly broken, it would have been suspected or banned by now.

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    Most importantly, you gotta remember, Wifi in B/W allows you to see your opponent's full team before a battle, so if a combination like "Zoroark + Gengar" ever became so huge as to break the metagame, people could just look at the top screen of their DS and predict the combination so hard that it'd be gross to witness.

    It's kinda reminds me of the Swiftswim + Dizzle Politoad "discussions" (and I use that term lightly) going on over at Smogon, Ubering a pokemon based on its use in one situation, a situation that most people should have a counter for anyway (I.E. ANY weather effect or bulky pokemon that don't rely on speed).

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    Except Zoroark can't take a tackle from a caterpie and will die to anything faster than it. Zoroark will never be anything close to Ubers, or Lucario for that matter. Zoroark will just be that cute little gimmick that screws you up every once in awhile because you forgot it was on your opponent's team and accidently threw a psychic at it, thinking it was a hitmontop.
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    its a gimmick, and it could give you a free turn. worth it in uber? prob not. its fine where it is.

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    Zoroark just doesn't have the stats to get kicked out of OU. Sure, its fast and can boost its stats to ungodly levels, but anything with half decent priority can KO it no problem.
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    It also isn't really all that fast. Base 105 gets beaten by 2/3 genies, Gengar, Starmie, the fighting trio/quad, Jolteon, anything with a scarf, and many, many other things. Although I agree Gengar and Zoroark is a decent combination for tricking people (just avoid spikes/toxic spikes), it is by no means game-breaking.
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    Apparently most of the posters in this thread pair Zoroark with obvious Pokemon in attempt to utilize it's Illusion, without realizing that's not how you play a spy or a trickster role.

    STAB Sucker Punch and perfect coverage isn't a joke, guys. Especially with access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot (I prefer the former), I'm fairly sure you could find great opportunities to bluff a fearsome sweeper to get at least one of them in. 40 attack EVs on a Naive nature and Life Orb OHKO's (factoring in Rocks as well) the likes of Gengar, Latios, Azelf, Starmie and dents a few others I'm lazy to mention. May the good lord save you all if it's +2.

    Dark typing hasn't been the most defensive typing in the world, so why the complaining?

    ...But NU/UU? That metagame would be ripped to shreds and I'm fairly sure a few of you know it. It's a pity people don't use it enough to see the amazing potential it has in OU. Players need to use this guy more elaborately.

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    I was on po once and I paired zoroark shedinja. (Made sure to use rapid so it really looked like I was bringing in shedinja. I used an sd set since shedinja also gets that and the move he used to hit "shedinja" with was hex so I nabbed a second sd and finished him. That my friends is a good way to use zoroark. SD ftw!!







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    Quote Originally Posted by 123fakestreet View Post
    I was on po once and I paired zoroark shedinja. (Made sure to use rapid so it really looked like I was bringing in shedinja. I used an sd set since shedinja also gets that and the move he used to hit "shedinja" with was hex so I nabbed a second sd and finished him. That my friends is a good way to use zoroark. SD ftw!!
    shedninja could be a more appropriate illusion. could buy yourself an extra move if they dont have something to hit it

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    I don't think i've ever faced a legitimately good opponent who's used a Zoroark since the very beginning of BW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epic_eevee View Post
    I don't think i've ever faced a legitimately good opponent who's used a Zoroark since the very beginning of BW.
    Wouldn't surprise me. He takes careful planning to use properly.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucario0708 View Post
    So, anyway, with Zoroark's illusion ability able to play mind games on the opponent, we're able to use gengar as our last pokemon so as to trick people into using psychic type moves, to find no effect, at this time zoroark would've already set up, and considering it can outspeed most of the 5th gen pokemon, would take out the opposing side fairly quickly.

    What I am saying is, this matchup is extremely powerful and mind-boggling (literally) so, is it worthy of becoming Uber Tier because of this? or will it just stay OU?
    In theory, you can do this with any poison or fighting type pokemon so I doubt this combo alone will force either into Uber.
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    Zoroark is situational. He has uses, but more often than not he'll probably be the slack on the team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A d v e n t™ View Post
    Apparently most of the posters in this thread pair Zoroark with obvious Pokemon in attempt to utilize it's Illusion, without realizing that's not how you play a spy or a trickster role.

    STAB Sucker Punch and perfect coverage isn't a joke, guys. Especially with access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot (I prefer the former), I'm fairly sure you could find great opportunities to bluff a fearsome sweeper to get at least one of them in. 40 attack EVs on a Naive nature and Life Orb OHKO's (factoring in Rocks as well) the likes of Gengar, Latios, Azelf, Starmie and dents a few others I'm lazy to mention. May the good lord save you all if it's +2.

    Dark typing hasn't been the most defensive typing in the world, so why the complaining?
    ...But NU/UU? That metagame would be ripped to shreds and I'm fairly sure a few of you know it. It's a pity people don't use it enough to see the amazing potential it has in OU. Players need to use this guy more elaborately.
    Umbreon is pretty bulky... I would prefer him over Zoroark

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    Obviously, there are exceptions. But the majority of Dark types don't have the greatest defenses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A d v e n t™ View Post
    STAB Sucker Punch and perfect coverage isn't a joke, guys. Especially with access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot (I prefer the former), I'm fairly sure you could find great opportunities to bluff a fearsome sweeper to get at least one of them in. 40 attack EVs on a Naive nature and Life Orb OHKO's (factoring in Rocks as well) the likes of Gengar, Latios, Azelf, Starmie and dents a few others I'm lazy to mention. May the good lord save you all if it's +2..
    Are you talking from experience or from theory? Zoroark makes a terrible Swords Dancer. It has far less damage potential than Weavile and it even has worse defenses. STAB Sucker Punch isn't a joke but it is highly predictable and easy to work around.

    ..But NU/UU? That metagame would be ripped to shreds and I'm fairly sure a few of you know it. It's a pity people don't use it enough to see the amazing potential it has in OU. Players need to use this guy more elaborately.
    Its UU / LU because people don't use it. Its not banned from either tier either because Zoroark isn't very good lol.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Are you talking from experience or from theory? Zoroark makes a terrible Swords Dancer. It has far less damage potential than Weavile and it even has worse defenses. STAB Sucker Punch isn't a joke but it is highly predictable and easy to work around.
    Do you think I just type random nonsense from my keyboard? This is obviously experience. Illusion does work, even with team preview. Also, the Sucker Punch "predictablility" (lol.), something's going to be dented or KO'd when executed correctly, like it or not.

    Its UU / LU because people don't use it. Its not banned from either tier either because Zoroark isn't very good lol.
    People naturally wouldn't use something that actually requires thought to use properly. But that's your opinion; which most certainly doesn't make it correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A d v e n t™ View Post
    Do you think I just type random nonsense from my keyboard? This is obviously experience. Illusion does work, even with team preview. Also, the Sucker Punch "predictablility" (lol.), something's going to be dented or KO'd when executed correctly, like it or not.
    More like slightly dented, because no good player will be surprised by Sucker Punch. If a Zoroark Swords Dances as I switch in my Starmie (example) I'm not going to leave it in, I'm going to switch to Scizor, or Substitute Garchomp, or anything that can either survive a hit or avoid it entirely.

    People naturally wouldn't use something that actually requires thought to use properly. But that's your opinion; which most certainly doesn't make it correct.
    Hmm, so now you're trying to insult the intelligence of everyone who used Zoroark, and realized its dead weight most of the time.

    How high have you been on the ladder? What is your Zoroark cloaked as? What set do you use?

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    More like slightly dented, because no good player will be surprised by Sucker Punch. If a Zoroark Swords Dances as I switch in my Starmie (example) I'm not going to leave it in, I'm going to switch to Scizor, or Substitute Garchomp, or anything that can either survive a hit or avoid it entirely.
    Do elaborate on how do you plan to predict a Sucker Punch in an illusion. I want whatever goggles you're using in battles to be able to tell the exact moment Zoroark is on the field. Otherwise everything else you've said is out of the window at this point.


    Hmm, so now you're trying to insult the intelligence of everyone who used Zoroark, and realized its dead weight most of the time.

    How high have you been on the ladder? What is your Zoroark cloaked as? What set do you use?
    You sure love putting words in my mouth. If that qualifies as an "insult", I guess I must have been born yesterday. But it's okay --your word is apparently the voice of everyone's.

    I don't do any "laddering" in OU for PO besides random matches if I'm looking to test a Pokemon's usability in that tier. I only ladder in Gen 5/Dream World Ubers (PokeBattleCenter, mainly) as OU in it's current state is Excadrill, Tar, Gliscor, Chomp; rinse and repeat. Generic and devoid of any life whatsoever.

    My Zoroark assumes the guise of most Pokemon who wouldn't be immune/affected by common entry hazards. Although, I usually end up doing that anyway, forcing me to keep a spinner like Forretress or Starmie available. It also prefers to find a safe switch-in on something in Illusion to scare them off.

    Usually running a build of:

    Naive nature @Life Orb
    40 Atk/218 SpA/252 Speed.
    ~Sucker Punch
    ~Flamethrower
    ~U-turn
    ~Swords Dance

    Or, works as a revenge killer/scout as well if I'm scarfed:

    Timid/Naive nature @Choice Scarf
    4 HP/4 Atk, 252 SpA, 252 Speed
    Flamethrower
    Dark Pulse/Night Daze
    Hidden Power Ice/Focus Blast
    Grass Knot/U-turn (if Naive)

    Most of the time it's disguised as Garchomp (if using the first set) - sandstorm/SR blows the disguise; usually resulting in a U-turn to get of the way. But in the clear, roasting their lovely Steel-type counters on the switch with Flamethrower always feels good. Forretress/Starmie are preferred partners to keep impending hazards out of the way. But with the weather wars lately, it's becoming a nuisance if Sandstorm is up.

    But, I'm experimenting with more partners who wouldn't seem too out of place on OU teams. Toxicroak, Heracross, Infernape (if I'm leading), Scizor, Jellicent and many others I've tried to some extent. Team Preview might seem like a boon, but I love the paranoia it could cause once they see a Zoroark in the team and a well-known partner of it at the same time - only to figure out it's not necessarily my intention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epic_eevee View Post
    I don't think i've ever faced a legitimately good opponent who's used a Zoroark since the very beginning of BW.
    I think I've seen mostly 10-year olds just using it with haxorus and their starter. I spot them doing random matchup rotational matchups and they never rotate

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    If Team Preview didn't exist, Zoroark would be a lot more useful. The jig is pretty much up when the match starts and a smart opponent can easily tell which is the illusion once it attacks.

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