Yes if you don't mind what happened to grovyle dude in the opening, Luvdisc will pay for this atrosityOriginally Posted by Zoramon089
Yes if you don't mind what happened to grovyle dude in the opening, Luvdisc will pay for this atrosityOriginally Posted by Zoramon089
Okay, allow me to add some perspective to this, but first a point about the whole "not able to move/defend thing on Grovyle.
I assume that the people noting that Grovyle couldn't move are trying more to say it could make no effort to defend, to even brace its muscles for the impact. I'm reminded of an episode of Yu Yu Hakusho (a fighting anime), where Yusuke is hit hard by a blast of energy and is rocketed back to end up in a pile of concrete rubble. Moments later he leaps back out, with hardly a scratch on him, but notes that if he hadn't had his guard up the attack would probably have killed him. Merely being able to anticipate an attack can greatly reduce damage in a real fight. In another fight on Yu Yu, Kurama keeps fighting long after he was expected to by intentionally letting non vital areas of hsi body get wounded to block vital areas, all due to an awareness of where and when an attack would come and how it would hit. Grovyle was completely blindsided it seems.Originally Posted by frednmethod
And anyone who's played the games knows that the damage a Pokemon gets from "hurting itself in its confusion" (i.e Grovyle slamming his head into stone) can be quite nasty. ^_^
Still, I wish they had had the Luvdisc use Ice Beam to win. But lets all hope that this loss encourages Grovyle to train even harder.
Reasons Corphish should not have gotten the final spotlight:
1. It was a Water type in a Water gym which did give it a number of advantages. However, it was also fighting other Water types more experienced and more at home in this gym than it was. As it stands it still beat two opponents, which is pretty good I say. I mean really, aside from Guillotine (which it doesn't know) how could anyone expect Corphish to beat a Milotic?
2. It simply isn't strong enough yet. Really, even Grovyle wouldn't be able to beat Milotic most likely, as Pikachu's Thunder does more extensive damage than Leaf Blade.
Reasons Pikachu was the only logical choice for beating Milotic (really how are so many surprised, Pikachu was the only member of the team who really stood a chance except maybe Grovyle) :
1. Pikachu is without a doubt the overall most experienced and strongest member of Ash's travelling team right now, all the others are (presumably) younger and (definately) less experienced. It should be expected to pull off a good number of trump-card victories just as Charizard did in previous seasons.
2. Pikachu has a natural advantage over Water types, but whats more, by being in the conductive water it can intensify the attack and send it into the entire field, making it impossible to dodge and greatly increasing damage.
3. Milotic is a extremely powerful, Gyarados-level creature, and this one was owned by a very experienced trainer (older and more traveled than Norman by the looks of it). From the beginning I was quite certain Pikachu was the only one who had any chance of defeating Milotic, although I thought that they just might have it weaken it a lot then have another Pokemon deliver the final few blows, but really I think I prefer this.
4. Ash's Pikachu IS the mascot of Pokemon as well as a unique member of its species. We should accept it will be getting star-worthy victories until the end of time (or the series, whichever comes first). I say its better than some of the semi-unbelievable defeats it suffered in Johto (i.e one Night Shade from a Gastly). It isn't as though others haven't been able to star as well. Yes, Pikachu gets an unfair number of big battles, but that unfairness should be understood in light of the fact that Pikachu is the beloved Mascot and the most experienced member of the team.
However, I share others hopes that Ash's team will strengthen by the time of the tournament so that his Hoenn Pokemon aren't overhadowed by earlier, more experienced Pokemon like in the Silver Conference (as enjoyable as some of those battles were). As it is, his Hoenn Pokemon team is stronger than his Johto one at the point of the eighth gym, proven by how much better they did compared to his travelling team at the eighth gym in Johto.
Really people, think of all the great things this gym battle has to offer. We've never had Pikachu deleiver a massive Thunder underwater before and for me the highlight might be Swellow using Aerial Ace UNDERWATER.
And lastly, even though people tend to look only at the last match up, every battle is about as important as the others since the final match wouldn't happen if it weren't for them. Look at the eighth gym in Johto. None of Ash's team but Snorlax could get past Kingdra, making its defeat as important as Dragonair's.
Last edited by Pokemon Fan; 21st January 2005 at 6:51 PM.
Yah that sucks about Grovyle. One thing people may want to keep in mind (I don't like Luvdisc anymore than the other haters), is that gymleader Pokemon are typically stronger than your average Pokemon. While I'm glad Ash won, I'm sad to see Adan fade into the background so fast. <3 Adan
For those forgetting the effect of Sweet Kiss, it causes confusion within the Pokémon. Juputoru was too confused to even know what it was attacking. It went on using Pound on a pillar, SLAMMING its head repeatedly into it. Rabukasu then fired off a shot that DID hit hard and knocked out Juputoru. Its confusion had a role in this because it couldn't really do much about it. Let's use a good example. Being confused is about close to being drunk (quiet, best I could come up with). Both don't have full usage of their bodies and have a hard time seeing straight. Reflexes are rather low, leaving them open. Knock a drunk man over, see if he gets up fast. XP
Juputoru was confused and could not move around much. There's no way it would've been able to withstand an attack that was a direct hit. Not to mention, the impact of hitting the floor on one's back and bouncing a few inches once or twice.
I STILL do not understand how being in TWO battles makes Pikachu a glory hog. Only being in two out of five battles is nothing. Hell, would you guys rather he had used Kootasu instead? With Juputoru knocked out, Pikachu was the only good choice to use. Did you guys already forget that Heigani and Oosubame did their best as well? Or are we just gonna ignore that and focus hatred towards Pikachu? Pikachu did not "save the day" otherwise it'd have beaten ALL of Adan's Pokémon.
So a Rabukasu knocked out Juputoru, big deal. Adan strategically beat it and it was simply too fast. Get over yourselves. --;
Wouldn't it be the writer's job to come up with such things? I'm sure they could have thought of some creative way in which Milotic could be taken down by a pokémon that doesn't have the luxary of having super-effective attacks. Like...um...lessee...Corphish could have combined Crabhammer and Bubblebeam together, enabling it to repeatedly club Milotic whilst injuring it with a good energy attack also, thus disabling it from being able to recover. And that was just off the top of my head :x Hitting something with a Thunder/bolt whilst underwater just doesn't impress me at all I'm afraid ^^;Originally Posted by Pokémon Fan
Thats the problem right there. The fact that Pikachu tends to be relied on so often. Which of course, doesn't give pokémon that actually need more experience the chance to get any. Surely if Pikachu was used a lot less often and the rest of the team were used a lot more, there wouldn't be too much need for a trump card ne? As you said "Pikachu gets an unfair number of big battles" which in turn is certainly going to effect the rest of the teams strength from developing in the long run.Pikachu is without a doubt the overall most experienced and strongest member of Ash's travelling team right now, all the others are (presumably) younger and (definately) less experienced. It should be expected to pull off a good number of trump-card victories just as Charizard did in previous seasons.
I don't think that Pikachu fighting in two battles is what makes him a 'glory hog', its the fact that he has to defeat the final, strongest foe which in turn makes him look super-duper special once again~Originally Posted by Edward Elric
I may not have any liking towards Pikachu, but I try not to let that get in the way. Fact of the matter is, I want to see something new in a Gym battle and Pikachu manages to prevent that to a certain degree. I've seen Pikachu finishing off strong opponents with an electric attack before, I don't need to KEEP seeing that :/
I think Swellow had a decent battle here, and Corphish's wasn't too bad. I just wish he'd gotten more spotlight this time around as all.
I find the fact that Grovyle was defeated easily by the Luvdisc to be the most frustrating aspect. If Grovyle had actually gotten a chance to actually put up a decent fight, I wouldn't be as bothered about it as I am now. As I said before, Grovyle didn't even get a chance~Originally Posted by Edward Elric
Did Adan say anything to Ash about the Hoenn League? When? Where?
Nothing that I could tell. He did mention the location of the next Pokemon Contest.
Yeah, but as I said earlier, a drunk man and a confused Pokemon could at least move around a bit though without getting up, like squirming on the ground or something. Did Juptle squirm on the ground? No, it just stopped moving and was declared fainted.Originally Posted by Edward Elric
And Gravy, you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.
-defeating final and almost all the time strongest opponent=main spotlight=glory hog. Pikachu may be the main mascot, but no denying he's gotten really stale by now, even with Iron Tail, so it's easy to prefer Satoshi's other, more newer Pokemon over him. The fact that we see him use an electric attack against Rocket Dan nearly every episode doesn't help either. Besides, Pikachu already got its share of glory from the 1st, 3rd, and 7th gym battles, and that's excluding the previous regions. I like Pikachu, but for these reasons, I would really have preferred his role was reduced in this final battle.
-Juptle's without a doubt a very strong Pokemon, likely the strongest on his team at the moment. I don't care if Adan strategized, it's just extremely degrading to see the guy go out without even making a halfway decent effort.
Obviously, I'm a Juptle-fan with a bias towards him, I'd willingly admit that. But I at least have enough sense to accept his losses in the past when they occured (shiny Oosubame and Chirutalis), because those losses seemed very sensible. This one, though, it's just very unforgiveable.
Yup, classes again. I'm gonna be at this for a while.
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Yeah, Corphish finally won against a Pokemon. Maybe the days of stupid, comedy only Corphish are over. (Of course this doesn't mean he can't still be funny.)
Some people don't think it's funny that Exit 69 gets off on Big Beaver.
You'll notice that not one person apart from yourself mentioned that Grovyle used Pound, and slamming his own head into a pillar, thus causing himself damage. Golden Darkness did not mention that detail. (Of course, the same information could have be glemed from the episode pictures, but I personally do not look at them. Others, may and should have made a point of it in this thread though, since many people, including myself, are running around annoyed over Grovyle's loss.)Originally Posted by Edward Elric
As for Pikachu... I agree. Being in two battles does not make any Pokemon a glory hog. However, count up all the battles Pikachu has been in throughout his entire time in the anime... he's in every episode, lots of battles and even has had a few episodes centered around him. He gets most/all of the limelight, so when it comes to things like this, the scriptwriters should give his other Pokemon some glory, since Pikachu has already had his fair share over the years.
So sue me. It was late at night when I posted the summary. I did post a follow-up when people started bemoaning Grovyle's fate.Originally Posted by Alfonso
Last edited by Golden Darkness; 21st January 2005 at 9:24 PM.
[QUOTE=Golden Darkness]Well, you didn't mention it in your first post, and I mostly just skip over most the posts in a thread like this, mainly because most of them are usually not of relevance. But I'll apologise for the mistake. (However, I wasn't the only one who hadn't noticed your added note... seeing as hardly anybody but Edward mentioned it afterwards.)Originally Posted by Alfonso
Edit: *seen GD's Edit* Dude, chill. I was just saying that you didn't mention it. -_- No need to get upset. :P
Long Live Water Pokemon!
So Grovyle lost to Luvdisk. I thought it was an interesting twist. Just because Ash has well trained Pokemon, doesn't make him the only one. oO;; Adan is a GYM LEADER, he is not a pushover, his Pokemon are really strong, and if size mattered, then Pikachu would loose almost every one of it's matches. Adan had a better Stratigy, so get over 'King' Grovyle's loss to the water gun. It can happen, it did happen, and it will stay like that. However, unlike some of you, I thought this was a great Gym battle, and I think it will turn into my favorite when I watch it dubbed.
Last edited by Togemon; 21st January 2005 at 10:02 PM.
Did ash offer any comment at all about what his plans are for between now and then?Originally Posted by Murgatroyd
"Psychos... they always love comics." - Det. Elliot Stabler.
I find this episode to be really...unnerving. It seemed like an awesome battle from the preview, but I'm sad after viewing the pictures. Grovyle being defeated by a Water Gun is what gets me most. No offense to those defending this case, but at least have the courtesy to knock it out after a fair few attacks, not a Sweet Kiss and a Water Gun-_-
I'm also annoyed, because Pikachu was the final battler(I did not say battle hog, though!). I sit back an yawn when Pikachu enters a battle, merely because we all know it's gonna be "Pikachu, Thunder!" or "Pikachu, Iron Tail!"
If Pikachu had lost at the last moment, I would have been happy. But a Thunder from underwater does NOT impress me. I recall a post I made previously:
Now, this doesn't apply exactly for this situation, but really, Pikachu does need to be toned down.I think, Pikachu should be used less. When Pikachu is called into battle, it's taking the space of a lesser used Pokemon, such as Corphish or Torkoal. For example, I was just re-watching the Flannery episode yesterday. Pikachu could have been substituted for Taillow, who was awfully underused. In short, don't get rid of the mouse, just tone it down a bit. Kay?
My only comment, as pitiful as it is, is on the Swellow portion, and it's a positive one. That was a fun battle to witness. Whiscash has this dopey, but frightfully determined, look to its face. And then you've got Swellow, who can be dopey but ultimately never wipes that serious tone from his brow. Whiscash in the water and is HUGE. Swellow's up in the air, darting around. I found all of it to be a pleasing battle of the opposites.
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Was Juputoru slamming its head against the pillar the first time the anime has actually shown a confused pokemon "hurting itself in its confusion?"
The only victory I really disagree with is Ohsubame's victory against Namazun (it took a freakin' Hyper Beam from point blank and acted as if nothing happened to it). And while I question Pikachu's ability to just sort of flip Milokaross over, its victory wasn't as unbelievable as some of the others.
Finally, I liked how Namazun used its whiskers to grab onto that pole and attacked.
Not that I know of, but Adan did tell Haruka that there's a Contest Hall in Kinagi Town. Masato looks it up on his PokeNavi and tells the gang that it's close by, so Haruka decides that that will be their next destination.Originally Posted by JazzJazz
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I agree on the following:
--Pikachu is becoming a predictable nuisance and needs to be toned down until the writers can think of something new and exciting to do with him.
--Grovyle's loss to Luvdisc is inexcusable. You can lecture me on the conditions, the physics, and all that other stuff all you want, but with a Pokémon that has a reputation for being hardcore and extremely hard to take down like Grovyle does, it won't work. The Grovyle I know would've overcome that to at least put up a good fight. If Grovyle had to lose, at least let him lose like the honorable badass we all know and love.
That's all I have to say on the matter. I won't bring up Torkoal, because everyone already knows how I feel about that.
For those of you complaining about Pikachu being the one to finish this, I have a simple question: What other pokemon does Ash have that could take out that Milotic in a single attack? Because that's essentially what it takes to KO a Recovering Milotic.
How about dodging an Iron Tail, running up its opponent's body, dodging a Hydro Pump, throwing its opponent into the water, and then frying it with Thunder?Originally Posted by Bulba the Great!
Intensive training.Originally Posted by JazzJazz
I don't think it's the fact that Ash used Pikachu to finish the battle is what people are annoyed at. Using Torkoal would have been a stupid and costly mistake. It's the fact that once again, the scriptwriters wrote the battle to end up leaving Pikachu in the driving seat, cruising over the finishing line, getting covered in cheap champangue and touching up the attractive Japanese... Race Queen, is what I believe they are called. They could have easily have had Grovyle be the one to finish, or Swellow. Or whoever. Instead, they thought what a great idea it would be to once again hand the battle to Pikachu.Originally Posted by Murgatroyd
And Edward, nobody is complaining about Drake's Pokemon because Drake is an Elite Four member and so has incredibly strong Pokemon. o.o; His skills are far greater than Adan's, otherwise he wouldn't be, like I said, an Elite Four member. Pikachu was strong, and still lost to Prima's Cloyster.
The reason no one threw a fit when Drake's Altaria beat Grovyle is two fold. First, Grovyle had a quad disadvantage against Altaria. Second is that Altaria's trainer is probably one of the top five pokemon trainers in the world. Luvdisc is a water pokemon and Grovyle has an advantage against it. At the very least, Grovyle should have put up a decent fight, but Sweet Kiss prevented that. Grovyle basically beat himself with Luvdisc pulling off the finishing blow. To me, it's almost as bad as the way they had Charizard lose to Blaziken. Charizard should have stayed down, not come up ready for battle, roar, and then faint after he stood up the way he did. It was almost as if an external force took away his strength. In a way, that's what happened to Grovyle, but it was Luvdisc who got the powerup, in a way. I wouldn't have minded if it was Bayleef, she never impressed me that much, but Grovyle is a pokemon that has beaten a Gym Leader's Altaria before. Grovyle's proven himself to be stronger than this. This was the classic example of what I call a plot induced outcome. At least have Grovyle go down to the next pokemon or have Ash call him back.
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Oh come on, Edward. You know the answer to that, and you know it. Drake is a friggin' Elite Four member, of course we're going to think much more highly of him than a Gym leader. It takes the winner of a whole tournament filled with dozens and dozens of talented trainers to even get the chance to pose a threat to a trainer like Drake. Seriously, would you expect Grovyle to match up to a Pokémon trained as well as that Altaria without some really intensive training? Not to mention a lot more battling experience? Saying that in response to my post was absolutely pointless because I know you know the answer to your own gripe. I will always stand on my opinion that the way Grovyle lost was inexcusable, and that's all there is to it.Originally Posted by Edward Elric
Really, I don't understand why you would take the time to say that just to contradict me. Sometimes I don't get things that people do...it's ridiculous...*goes off talking to herself.* XP