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Thread: Venomoth Toolbox 2.0 [OU]

  1. #1
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    Default Venomoth Toolbox 2.0 [OU]

    Introduction

    Same deal as the last thread, except this one has my updated team. My first post from the first thread was so huge that it would have taken decades to edit, not to mention the fact that the team looks completely different. This thread won't be as in-depth as the first thread was as the basic idea is the same, and it took me about 5 hours to complete the first post of 1.0.

    Team At A Glance



    Team Analysis



    Thundurus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast
    - Thunder Wave

    A great lead that has swept teams by itself before. Thunderbolt is your standard attacking move. Hidden Power [Ice] gives me major coverage. Focus Blast deals with Steels, Blissey and Chansey. Thunder Wave gets priority with Prankster and helps me shut down threats that could potentially wreck me.



    Venomoth @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Baton Pass
    - Sleep Powder

    The best Pokémon. Quiver Dance boosts three stats, all of which compliment my four special sweepers well. Bug Buzz so I'm not taunt bait, and in a pinch I can use Venomoth to sweep. Baton Pass so I can pass the boosts, and Sleep Powder so I can set up safely.



    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    An incredible Pokémon that gets even better with Quiver Dance. Fire Blast is the strongest attack Heatran has, but I'm considering dropping it for Flamethrower as missing and losing my boosts is really annoying. Earth Power is for Fire types and other Heatran, as well as coming in handy for Tyranitar. Dragon Pulse gets perfect coverage and hits Garchomp, Salamence, Latios, Latios, Hydreigon, all of the popular Dragons. Hidden Power [Grass] deals with Water Pokémon.



    Latios @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Even without Quiver Dance boosts this guy is a powerhouse. With Quiver Dance, it is normally game over right there. Dragon Pulse is the most reliable and powerful attack I have, so needs to be put in. Surf handles the ever common Heatran and deals good damage to Rocks and Grounds. Psyshock, after a few boosts, allows me to beat Blissey and Chansey. Hidden Power [Fire] stops Steels and Ferrothorn from walling me.



    Rotom-W @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    I love this thing. If I see Gyarados, this is my go to guy. A match the other day had me setting up with Venomoth on Gyarados (thank you Timid max Speed!) until I got +3, then passing to Rotom-W for an easy sweep. Rotom-W can beat mole, beats Gyarados, beats Scizor, is another great Baton Pass recipient, and is cool in general. Thunderbolt is your standard damaging attack. Accurate and powerful. Hydro Pump is much stronger, but less accurate. Pain Split either recovers me or deals heavy damage to Blissey or what not. Hidden Power [Fire] deals with Ferrothorn.



    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower
    - Quick Attack

    Great revenge killer and really helps the team out. Beats Reuniclus, which was a huge threat to my team. U-scout scouts and deals heavy damage. Bullet Punch is a 90 base power priority move with no immunities. Superpower handles any Steels that would switch into me. Quick Attack allows me to revenge kill Blaziken, Thundurus, stuff that resists Bullet Punch.

    How does this one look to everyone? I'm Thundurus weak to an extent with nothing outspeeding 353 without boosts, but because I have an Electric resist in Latios, priority Thunder Wave in Thundurus (though if I get hit with priority Taunt, that's no good), and Quick Attack in Scizor. I think I'll be alright.

  2. #2
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    Really liking the look of this now.

    Going into the micro things now... On venomoth, put the 4HP into defence, as to better handle Stealth Rocks, same with Heatran.

    Couple moves for thought would be possibly adding taunt over hidden Power Ice on Thunderus, as to stop any set up leads; and to function as a better stall breaker later on in the game It would also mean Chansey is reduced to seismic tossing you while you hit it; instead of it possibly toxic stalling you later on.

    Memento somewhere on Latios would mean if its coming close to being on its last legs, it can let venomoth set up all over again with much more ease.

    Great looking team buddy.

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    Taunt is a great call. Played my friend's team earlier and got stalled by Chansey pretty badly (Scizor was dead by this point). However, Venomoth setting up +4 Quiver Dance and passing to Pain Split Rotom-W won me the game. Was really close. Lasted more than 40 turns. I played with Scizor really well and he played amazingly with Flygon.

    Memento... I'm iffy on. I'd really, really miss any move I dropped on Latios. Most of the time when Latios gets +2 or +3, it's game over anyway. Only things outspeeding me are priority users who would get priority anyway, making Memento sort of useless.

    http://pastebin.com/hFVFT4gr is a log of this team working. I got lucky at one point (Sleep Talk picking Ice Beam), but if Fire Blast had hit, I wouldn't have had to worry regardless. Not that this doesn't happen often or anything, it's just a log I remembered to save.

    Made those EV changes.

    Also, as this team is Wi-Fi rather than Dream World, what should I run as a "lead"? Heatran?

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    Put heatran in the first place to feign its lead set, and then just thunderus in the first spot. Heatran will draw bulky water leads, and thunderus will cream them .

    That's what I do on my team anyway.

    Yeah, memento was just me scraping the bottom of the barrel to see if there was anything you'd over looked. I know the moves are pretty much needed as your team's focuses on trying to sweep at any given time, so you can't always rely on a team member to take out X/Y/Z so I guess the coverage is needed.

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    Good plan. I can't see any like... gaping weaknesses to be honest, which is surprising. There must be something I'm missing that I'm being really thick about.

    EDIT: What about ScarfChomp? Do I have him covered?

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    You have him checked well enough. Always go to scizor when you see him though, as to not tarnish your heatran's balloon (unless you are absolutely sure it's going to Earthquake) I imagine you'll be 3HKOing him with bullet punch before he does the same to you.

    You might have issues with Mixmence, or any generally hard hitter that's going to be switching in and out, but I think you have resistances enough to be able to deal with that.

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    I at least have Thundurus with Thunder Wave, Latios with Dragon Pulse, Scizor with Bullet Punch and Heatran with... reists, to help with stuff like MixMence. I don't think my prediction is too bad, so I should do alright.

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    At a glance, Cloyster and NP Thundurus could be a problem if either of them gets set up. T-Wave on your own Thundurus is probably the best way to go about stopping them, though chances are they will manage to take down at least one thing on your team.
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    yeah, if you face scarfchomp, it most likely wont earthquake you, four of your six pokemon (including heatran, if it hasnt had its balloon popped yet), so scizor is your best bet against him, and you probably wont have to worry about mixmence, if you send out latios, you can destroy it easily

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    I assume that Rotom-W is OHKOed by Rock Blast then d0nut?

    Yeah, Thundurus is an issue. Thunder Wave shuts it down, but if it wins the Speed tie and hits me with Taunt, I might be stuck. Though if it doesn't run Hidden Power [Ice] Latios can probably take one hit and KO it. I also have Quick Attack on Scizor which should help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reno View Post
    I assume that Rotom-W is OHKOed by Rock Blast then d0nut?

    Yeah, Thundurus is an issue. Thunder Wave shuts it down, but if it wins the Speed tie and hits me with Taunt, I might be stuck. Though if it doesn't run Hidden Power [Ice] Latios can probably take one hit and KO it. I also have Quick Attack on Scizor which should help.
    Yea, Rock Blast is a guaranteed KO. Scizor has a chance to survive, but if Rocks are up he won't survive. Needless to say, everything else goes down to Icicle Spear, or in Heatran's case, Surf/Hydro Pump/Razor Shell, though if they use Ice Shard instead, Rock Blast still might take it out. The Ice Shard version might even be more dangerous since Shard could KO before you can get off T-Wave. Most NP Thundurus run Focus Blast instead of Taunt, but if you happened to face one with Tbolt / HP Ice / Taunt / NP then it would come to a speed tie between Taunt and T-Wave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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    I can't really see a way of covering up the sort of Cloyster weakness. Thunder Wave helps deal with it and then Scizor can come in without risk of a Water move or Rock Blast. Though, to be honest, I often get Quiver Dance boosts really early game, so I might get lucky and already be set up by the time Cloyster comes out. If it lacks Ice Shard, I shut it down with Thunder Wave. If it has Ice Shard, Heatran counters it right?

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    yeah, one quiver dance passed to latios might outrun a shell smashed jolly cloyster (i think, havent tried it) so you are probably safe, though if you face a cloyster when you havent gotten a quiver dance, you might be in serious trouble (trust me, cloyster is a beast! he and latios are the stars on my team )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reno View Post
    I can't really see a way of covering up the sort of Cloyster weakness. Thunder Wave helps deal with it and then Scizor can come in without risk of a Water move or Rock Blast. Though, to be honest, I often get Quiver Dance boosts really early game, so I might get lucky and already be set up by the time Cloyster comes out. If it lacks Ice Shard, I shut it down with Thunder Wave. If it has Ice Shard, Heatran counters it right?
    Rock Blast has a chance to KO Tran, and is guaranteed if it is Adamant LO with Rocks down. Setting up before Cloyster is the best way to avoid getting swept by it, since the only other way to cover the weakness would be to replace a team member for something like Empoleon, or Unaware Quagsire. Conkeldurr also has Mach Punch which is useful for beating it, plus Special Lucario can use Vacuum Wave to nail it on its softer Sp.Def. Special Luke might not be a bad recipient for Quiver Dances either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    Rock Blast has a chance to KO Tran, and is guaranteed if it is Adamant LO with Rocks down. Setting up before Cloyster is the best way to avoid getting swept by it, since the only other way to cover the weakness would be to replace a team member for something like Empoleon, or Unaware Quagsire. Conkeldurr also has Mach Punch which is useful for beating it, plus Special Lucario can use Vacuum Wave to nail it on its softer Sp.Def. Special Luke might not be a bad recipient for Quiver Dances either.
    actually, some cloysters will run with a white herb, so with that, conkeldurr's mach punch will be a 3HKO, without it, maybe a 2HKO, cloysters defense is really, usefully high

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    Cloyster 6-0s if it sets up but it doesn't have many safe chances to start a sweep. Play offensively and try to intercept its switch ins and you can probably avoid losing to it most of the time.

    Thundurus on the other hand can 2HKO your whole team with Thunderbolt + something. You can drop Scizor for a Body Slam / Iron Head Jirachi. This hard counters pretty much all Latios / Reunicles and has a decent chance of taking on +2 Thunderus and Cloyster, It also passes Wish's to Latios extremely well. This also gives you a rock resist. In a pinch Jirachi can be passed a Butterfly Dance and actually sweep when the opposing Heatran can't even 2HKO even if you're only at +1...

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    Only issue I can see is finding Blissey trickier and losing Bullet Punch, but those are big losses in my opinion.

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    I never went through a threatlist so I'll see what problems I can find.

    Substitute Garchomp is going to kill something every single time it comes in. Two in some combination of Dragon Claw + Earthquake will KO your whole team except Thundurus. In the sand it can easily set up on Rotom or Heatran without a Balloon (spam sub scouting for a HP Ice miss).

    Latios is still a huge threat. Its Specs Draco Meteors can 2HKO every single Pokemon on your team except Heatran if it gets lucky (and avoids a Surf). If you plan on using Latios to set up Venomoth don't bother. It OHKOs Venomoth after SR even at -2. Yeah you can revenge kill it with Scizor or Thundurus but its just going to switch out.

    You have Rapid Spin Excadrill checked fairly well but Return Excadrill (Return is used to KO Gliscor, Rotom etc) easily 6-0s you. Your only hope is for Heatran to have its Balloon intact and not be flinched. You only have a 61.3% chance of Heatran not being flinched, crit or Fire Blast missing. +2 Return OHKOs Latios, Rotom and Thundurus after Stealth Rocks and your remaining Pokemon die to Earthquake.

    With Stealth Rocks opposing Thundurus will 1-2KO every single member of your team by spamming Thunderbolt, except Latios who is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt + HP Ice. Your genie will not survive a single hit after Stealth Rocks.

    Volcarona is going to get at least two KOs each time it manages a free Butterfly Dance and that only assumes a best case scenario where Thundurus can safely switch in and Thunder Wave it. Heatran loses to it even if it runs HP Electric so you just have to pound it until it dies, and nothing here can OHKO a +1 Volcarona.

    HP Fire Starmie can KO every Pokemon on your team by spamming Hydro Pump + other move. Your best bet is to send Latios in after it kills something and hope you're still above 80%. Scizor is easily OHKOed by HP Fire.

    Choice Band Terakion can OHKO all of your Pokemon and easily 2HKO with either STAB move. Yes, even Venomoth is 2HKOed by Close Combat. Life Orb Terakion can OHKO everything with STAB + Quick Attack / Stealth Rocks.

    Swords Dance Lucario OHKOs every single one of your Pokemon after Stealth Rocks and it easily sets up on Venomoth. Even Rotom is OHKOed by +2 ES. You can't try to Paralyze it either as ES now has +2 priority compared to Thunder Wave's +1.

    If Heatran takes just 3% prior damage Ice Shard Cloyster can sweep you. If it runs Lum Berry you are 6-0ed. However Cloyster has NOTHING it can safely setup on without being brought into KO range for Scizor. You mentioned Cloyster but hes not a threat.



    You can fix practically every single one of these problems by just maxing HP on Rotom. 252 HP / 252 Special Attack should do fine. This guarantees survival against +2 Cloyster Rock Blast (if it runs Life Orb Scizor can take it out), +2 Excadrill Return and two Starmie Thunderbolts.

    Also try running Bold with 252 HP / 252 Defense on Venomoth. This will practically double Venomoth's physical defensiveness allowing it to survive two Scizor Bullet Punches, and two Thunderus Thunderbolts after a Butterfly Dance. You even will have a shot at being 3HKOed by Excadrill Rock Slide! Running this much bulk will allow Veno to survive a -2 Draco Meteor and the followup -4 Meteor provided you used Butterfly Dance.

    You can even drop Bug Buzz for Roost since Venomoth can take some surprisingly heavy hits when defensively EVed.



    Running HP on Rotom would mainly leave you open to a few things still but it would definitely help.

  19. #19
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    Venomoth without Bug Buzz is begging for Taunt though. At least with Bug Buzz it can deal some damage itself. Though what I'd miss most is the Speed. Venomoth's Speed is often what allows me to set up. Also, that means my Venomoth is sort of pointless as a counter. It's my main Fighting switch in, and without a move or Speed, it won't be beating Breloom and what not.

    Max HP on Rotom is doable.

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    Then run 252 HP / 252 Speed and keep your moveset. This still lets you beat Thundurus and lets you survive a Scizor Bullet Punch.

    You want to Baton Pass out of Taunt not attack. Whats more dangerous, a +1 Taunted Venomoth or a +1 Taunted Heatran / Latios / Rotom. Don't try to sweep with Venomoth, it won't work.

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    You want to Baton Pass out of Taunt not attack. Whats more dangerous, a +1 Taunted Venomoth or a +1 Taunted Heatran / Latios / Rotom. Don't try to sweep with Venomoth, it won't work.
    I don't try to sweep with Venomoth, but I use it as a last resort. If I can't switch something in safely, like say I'm at +2 with Venomoth and they switch in Tyranitar, I can't bring anything in. This is where Bug Buzz would be useful.

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    I don't have much more to add other then to suggest this Jirachi over Scizor.

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Careful
    252 HP / 216 Sp Def / 40 Speed

    Iron Head
    Wish
    Protect
    Body Slam

    Lati@s, Starmie, Gengar, Reunicles, Tyranitar and Thundurus all get beat by this set. Spam Body Slam and you can allow Venomoth some more chances to set up, and this lets your somewhat slow team sweep without a Butterfly Dance.

    Jirachi does a lot better at beating Reunicles than Scizor because the bug can be worn down by predicted Focus Blasts, Stealth Rock and Magnezone. Jirachi can keep itself and team members alive with Wish. In fact its so touch that Reunicles Focus Blast deals 22% max.. so it needs to Calm Mind three times to even have a chance at a 2HKO... assuming it hits, which it rarely will once its Paralyzed and you're pounding it with Iron Heads.

    Scizor sucks as a Reunicles counter because U-turn doesn't even KO. Reunicles can just Recover on the U-turn and end the exchange with 85% of its HP left.

  23. #23
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    won't I lose coverage against stuff like mence and mole if I run jirachi?

    I mean, I'm not opposed to any idea. if it helps the team I'll try it, but scizor has been a big help.

    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Venomoth @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Shield Dust
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Baton Pass
    - Sleep Powder

    Thundurus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast
    - Thunder Wave

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head
    - Wish
    - Protect

    Latios @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Rotom-W @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

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