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Thread: The Club Battle Finale: A Heroes Outcome! (703)

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    Now I come to think about it more Iris's winning the tournament really is the most unfair outcome. She only managed to win her battle with Luke because Axew learned outrage, which is odd given that Axew is demonstrated to be very young and hasn't had much battle experience. If it hadn't been for that she never would have faced Ash in the first place. On top of that she had done very little training with Emolga yet Emolga won her battle too. She only won against Ash really because her Excadrill has a significant type advantage against Pikachu and is reasonably powerful.

    Ash on the other hand had trained his Pokémon and had used Snivy and Pikachu in battles prior to this one. He didn't win any of his matches by fluke which makes it rather sad that he lost in the end. In all fairness Ash is probably a much better trainer than Iris, the problem with a competition like this is that the sudden death nature of the one on one battles with the elimination style of the competition means it ends up being unrepresentative of a trainer's true ability. Ash has plently of Pokémon that could have taken out Excadrill namely Palpitoad, Oshawott and Buizel but he chose to send out Pikachu before Iris choose her partner. And so it ended up being a really bad result - This ruined the series in my opinion.
    I REALLY hope you didnt seriously think the series was "ruined" because Iris beat Ash's pikachu using a pokemon that resists/is immune to pikachu's entire moveset. Sure, Ash could have pulled out another pokemon, but pikachu was Ash's strongest pokemon on hand at the timeno lord boldore, and I doubt he would summon infernape or something like that for a small tournement like this.

    In general it isnt even like Ash losing once had any huge impact on BW as a whole, so I dont get why this of all things would ruin the series for you?

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by phanpycross View Post
    I REALLY hope you didnt seriously think the series was "ruined" because Iris beat Ash's pikachu using a pokemon that resists/is immune to pikachu's entire moveset. Sure, Ash could have pulled out another pokemon, but pikachu was Ash's strongest pokemon on hand at the timeno lord boldore, and I doubt he would summon infernape or something like that for a small tournement like this.

    In general it isnt even like Ash losing once had any huge impact on BW as a whole, so I dont get why this of all things would ruin the series for you?
    In some ways I do and I do so for the following reasons:

    1. Like i've said before neither Ash or Pikachu make up the loss. Everything goes downhill from this point with Ash performing worse in the next two tournaments he competes in and coming up poor in the league. It made Ash look weak and amateurish and worse it made his Unova team Pikachu include look weak and inexperienced, which is a really big shame because most of my favourite Pokémon were in Unova. Compared with DP where he one at least one major non-league competition it's rather sad that he should loose an unimportant contest to a relatively inexperienced trainer using a Pokémon that a few episodes previously didn't even trust her.

    2. Nothing is actually achieved or gained from this competition. It doesn't showcase how any characters have grown or developed over the series except possibly it demonstrates a patch up in the relationship between Iris and Excadrill. And that wasn't really highlighted so what's the point - It just makes the arch seem like a pointless filler.

    3. Of all the people Ash could have lost against he lost to Iris, who had spent most of the series prior to this demeaning him and calling him a little kid for making simple mistakes. All her victory does is vindicate her and make it seem like Ash is an incompetent and inexperienced trainer and gives Iris more ground to to demean him. That casts a shadow over his entire journey in the Unova region and makes it look like he can't do anything right or achieve anything in his own right.

    4. The tournament doesn't reflect the trainer's actually ability with Pokémon. One on one battles in an elimination style tournament essentially means it's a sudden death competition. Iris had such a advantage that effectively she won before the match had even started. If it had been two against two or three on three then the greater degree of diversity in Pokémon chosen and the requirement to beat more than one opponent would be a better way of determining a trainers ability to work with their Pokémon and adapt to different situations.

    5. It continues the series trait of giving Pikachu a beating. I accept that Pikachu while Ash's strongest Pokémon is still brittle in his strength and had a massive type disadvantage here but it was still a bad loss. Why did he have to get slammed into the wall like that - that was hard to watch. And this comes on top of loosing to a Panpour in the first gym battle against Cress (when Oshawott beat a Pansage), nearly loosing to a Swanna in the battle against Skyla and going out to Cameron's Lucario in the end of the series. Poor Pikachu. If they really wanted to give Ash such a bad loss why not demolish a different Pokémon - Oshawott maybe. Pikachu has been with Ash since the beginning, he's Ash's most trusted and closest partner and the one he loves the most so it's not unreasonable that by this stage in Ash's career he should be able to hold his own a little better than this. The writers spent the series picking on him.

    If the episode has a saving grace it's the hug scene between Ash and Pikachu after the battle which brings out their friendship and love for each other in as good a way as a victory would have and in some respects better than.
    I support Pikashipping: Ash and Pikachu forever

  3. #378

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    In some ways I do and I do so for the following reasons:


    5. It continues the series trait of giving Pikachu a beating. I accept that Pikachu while Ash's strongest Pokémon is still brittle in his strength and had a massive type disadvantage here but it was still a bad loss. Why did he have to get slammed into the wall like that - that was hard to watch. And this comes on top of loosing to a Panpour in the first gym battle against Cress (when Oshawott beat a Pansage), nearly loosing to a Swanna in the battle against Skyla and going out to Cameron's Lucario in the end of the series. Poor Pikachu. If they really wanted to give Ash such a bad loss why not demolish a different Pokémon - Oshawott maybe. Pikachu has been with Ash since the beginning, he's Ash's most trusted and closest partner and the one he loves the most so it's not unreasonable that by this stage in Ash's career he should be able to hold his own a little better than this. The writers spent the series picking on him.

    If the episode has a saving grace it's the hug scene between Ash and Pikachu after the battle which brings out their friendship and love for each other in as good a way as a victory would have and in some respects better than.
    You do realise that Pikachu gets resetted at the start of every new saga.SO one moment he can beat a legendary the next he loses to some joke that he should easily beat(eg Snivy and Panpour)or Elekid and Magikarp in DP.
    Last edited by hihosilveraway; 11th March 2015 at 7:07 AM.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by hihosilveraway View Post
    You do realise that Pikachu gets resetted at the start of every new saga.SO one moment he can beat a legendary the next he loses to some joke that he should easily beat(eg Snivy and Panpour)or Elekid and Magikarp in DP.
    I dispute that Pikachu is reset at the start of the new saga. That's a fan theory to explain why Pikachu lost several battles at the beginning of BW which I personally don't believe is a satisfactory explanation. Pikachu was made unable to use electric type moves after the encounter with Zekrom during the first battle with Trip where Snivy beat him - That was not a reasonable or fair battle because of Pikachu's disability and either Ash or Trip should have called the battle off the moment they realised Pikachu was ill. If I had to make judgement I would say Ash acted inappropriately in not calling the battle off after it was shown Pikachu couldn't use electric attacks. Given Pikachu is his best friend he should have been more attentive to his welfare. Following this Pikachu regained the ability to use electric type moves and there was no evidence he was reset and no obvious reason for that to have been an issue. The Panpour battle was an abomination - Pikachu should not have lost to a Panpour. The only explanations I can think to support that are that either Cress is a much more skilled trainer than either Cilan or Chili, and I think that conclusion is reasonable in respect to Chili although by what degree remains unclear, or that Ash may have been overconfident about the type advantage.

    The Panpour battle also begs the question - If a panpour can beat an electric type why shouldn't Pikachu be able to beat Excadrill - There's nothing in that. Snivy aside, Panpour and Excadrill really did make me think that the writers were just taking the piss on Pikachu for most of the BW series. That's probably the one improvement they've made in XY - Pikachu is finally being given the glory he deserves. There have been some losses but so far Pikachu has been the start of the first three gym battles.
    I support Pikashipping: Ash and Pikachu forever

  5. #380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post

    The Panpour battle also begs the question - If a panpour can beat an electric type why shouldn't Pikachu be able to beat Excadrill - That's probably the one improvement they've made in XY - Pikachu is finally being given the glory he deserves. There have been some losses but so far Pikachu has been the start of the first three gym battles.
    Weird Anime logic or the fact that the anime isn't consistent with type advantages/disadvantages.

    Oh please I'm getting sick of Pika taking all the glory in XY it's taking away from his Kalos Pokémon.I rather how Pikachu was in BW than in XY.I swear Pikachu hardly loses in XY, he only has 2 losses while his other Pokémon get screwed over with consistent loses that's also not fair.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by hihosilveraway View Post
    Oh please I'm getting sick of Pika taking all the glory in XY it's taking away from his Kalos Pokémon.I rather how Pikachu was in BW than in XY.I swear Pikachu hardly loses in XY, he only has 2 losses while his other Pokémon get screwed over with consistent loses that's also not fair.
    He's Ash's first Pokémon who has been with him since the start of the series meaning of everyone he's had the most training and the most experience. Logically you would expect him to be much better than Pokémon Ash has only just caught. Also he's Ash's best friend and most trustworthy and loved partner so why shouldn't he use him. In any case it's not as if Pikachu is begin shown as being overpowered. Most of the gym battles have been close. He lost to Viola's surskit in the first episode and didn't land one hit when he went up against Korrina's Lucario the first time. I also don't think Pikachu appears in the fourth gym battle so it's not like he's talking all the glory. XY has put Pikachu rightful where he should be in terms of battles and strength.
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  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    In some ways I do and I do so for the following reasons:

    1. Like i've said before neither Ash or Pikachu make up the loss. Everything goes downhill from this point with Ash performing worse in the next two tournaments he competes in and coming up poor in the league. It made Ash look weak and amateurish and worse it made his Unova team Pikachu include look weak and inexperienced, which is a really big shame because most of my favourite Pokémon were in Unova. Compared with DP where he one at least one major non-league competition it's rather sad that he should loose an unimportant contest to a relatively inexperienced trainer using a Pokémon that a few episodes previously didn't even trust her.

    2. Nothing is actually achieved or gained from this competition. It doesn't showcase how any characters have grown or developed over the series except possibly it demonstrates a patch up in the relationship between Iris and Excadrill. And that wasn't really highlighted so what's the point - It just makes the arch seem like a pointless filler.

    3. Of all the people Ash could have lost against he lost to Iris, who had spent most of the series prior to this demeaning him and calling him a little kid for making simple mistakes. All her victory does is vindicate her and make it seem like Ash is an incompetent and inexperienced trainer and gives Iris more ground to to demean him. That casts a shadow over his entire journey in the Unova region and makes it look like he can't do anything right or achieve anything in his own right.

    4. The tournament doesn't reflect the trainer's actually ability with Pokémon. One on one battles in an elimination style tournament essentially means it's a sudden death competition. Iris had such a advantage that effectively she won before the match had even started. If it had been two against two or three on three then the greater degree of diversity in Pokémon chosen and the requirement to beat more than one opponent would be a better way of determining a trainers ability to work with their Pokémon and adapt to different situations.

    5. It continues the series trait of giving Pikachu a beating. I accept that Pikachu while Ash's strongest Pokémon is still brittle in his strength and had a massive type disadvantage here but it was still a bad loss. Why did he have to get slammed into the wall like that - that was hard to watch. And this comes on top of loosing to a Panpour in the first gym battle against Cress (when Oshawott beat a Pansage), nearly loosing to a Swanna in the battle against Skyla and going out to Cameron's Lucario in the end of the series. Poor Pikachu. If they really wanted to give Ash such a bad loss why not demolish a different Pokémon - Oshawott maybe. Pikachu has been with Ash since the beginning, he's Ash's most trusted and closest partner and the one he loves the most so it's not unreasonable that by this stage in Ash's career he should be able to hold his own a little better than this. The writers spent the series picking on him.

    If the episode has a saving grace it's the hug scene between Ash and Pikachu after the battle which brings out their friendship and love for each other in as good a way as a victory would have and in some respects better than.
    You are way underrating Iris and playing her off as a noob despite having a 100 win spree with her excadrill.

    Stop crying over the fact that Ash lost to an equally competent Trainer, it makes perfect sense in context, and doesnt hurt the unova saga at all.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by phanpycross View Post
    You are way underrating Iris and playing her off as a noob despite having a 100 win spree with her excadrill.

    Stop crying over the fact that Ash lost to an equally competent Trainer, it makes perfect sense in context, and doesnt hurt the unova saga at all.
    I wouldn't have classified Iris as an equally competent trainer. Yes she won a lot of battles with Excardrill but it stopped listening to her after the loss to Drayden. Then she didn't let it out of it's Pokéball again until challenged by Georgia - Who beat it first time round easily despite Beartic having a type disadvantage. The only other Pokémon she had prior to Emolga was Axew whom she didn't really spend a lot of time training but was still able to beat Luke's Golett with. Emolga won the first two battles despite not being trained at all and spending her first few episodes doing everything she could to avoid battle. She can not objectively be said to be equally competent to Ash who had by this point in the series won three gym badges and had all his achievements prior to this series for which Pikachu was responsible for most of. My personal view is that Iris probably shouldn't have reached the finals. Her Excadrill is very powerful but Emolga and Axew are not. Having them win so that she can take out Pikachu with Excadrill seems like a fluke. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Iris but I just don't think she should have won this tournament.

    For Ash to loose so definitely to Iris who got through largely on luck it made it a lot worse when he failed even to reach the semi-finals in every other competition following this including the league. Winning this would have show that a) he is a competent trainer, b) would have shown Iris that he is not just a little kid and actually can train and befriend Pokémon better than she can, c) would have made up for Pikachu being used as a punching bag in episodes prior to this and most of all it would have softened the blow when Ash lost to Cameron in the league (which I get the feeling a lot of people were unhappy about). That's why I said it ruined the saga. If Ash had done better in tournaments following or in the league, or even beat Iris later on it might not have been as bad. I personally blame this episode for a substantial amount of the weakness in the BW series.

    In any case what was gained from the tournament arch. Ash won every battle except where it counted and Iris got lucky with Emogla and Axew. It makes it look like a filler arch, which I suspect it was - They needed something to fill the void after the cancellation of the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by hihosilveraway View Post
    The problem with Unova is that they loved treating Ash and Pikachu like idiots who are absolue beginers and everyone is better than him.
    I more or less agree with that statement, which is essentially the problem I have with Iris winning the club battle tournament. Nobody treated Ash like a beginner more than she did with the exception of Trip. Then she went on to win despite having got to the final with two untrained Pokémon who got lucky which made it even worser. Talk about rubbing salt into the wound. She even referred to him as a kid at the start the battle! At least with Trip Ash did get to prove to him that he and Pikachu were actually competent. That's improved in XY a lot given that Ash has demonstrated a lot more competence and Pikachu has been the hero of three gym battles.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 11th March 2015 at 12:56 PM.
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  9. #384

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    I wouldn't have classified Iris as an equally competent trainer. Yes she won a lot of battles with Excardrill but it stopped listening to her after the loss to Drayden. Then she didn't let it out of it's Pokéball again until challenged by Georgia - Who beat it first time round easily despite Beartic having a type disadvantage. The only other Pokémon she had prior to Emolga was Axew whom she didn't really spend a lot of time training but was still able to beat Luke's Golett with. Emolga won the first two battles despite not being trained at all and spending her first few episodes doing everything she could to avoid battle. She can not objectively be said to be equally competent to Ash who had by this point in the series won three gym badges and had all his achievements prior to this series for which Pikachu was responsible for most of. My personal view is that Iris probably shouldn't have reached the finals. Her Excadrill is very powerful but Emolga and Axew are not. Having them win so that she can take out Pikachu with Excadrill seems like a fluke. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Iris but I just don't think she should have won this tournament.

    For Ash to loose so definitely to Iris who got through largely on luck it made it a lot worse when he failed even to reach the semi-finals in every other competition following this including the league. Winning this would have show that a) he is a competent trainer, b) would have shown Iris that he is not just a little kid and actually can train and befriend Pokémon better than she can, c) would have made up for Pikachu being used as a punching bag in episodes prior to this and most of all it would have softened the blow when Ash lost to Cameron in the league (which I get the feeling a lot of people were unhappy about). That's why I said it ruined the saga. If Ash had done better in tournaments following or in the league, or even beat Iris later on it might not have been as bad. I personally blame this episode for a substantial amount of the weakness in the BW series.

    In any case what was gained from the tournament arch. Ash won every battle except where it counted and Iris got lucky with Emogla and Axew. It makes it look like a filler arch, which I suspect it was - They needed something to fill the void after the cancellation of the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket episodes.
    The problem with Unova is that they loved treating Ash and Pikachu like idiots who are absolue beginers and everyone is better than him.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    I wouldn't have classified Iris as an equally competent trainer. Yes she won a lot of battles with Excardrill but it stopped listening to her after the loss to Drayden. Then she didn't let it out of it's Pokéball again until challenged by Georgia - Who beat it first time round easily despite Beartic having a type disadvantage. The only other Pokémon she had prior to Emolga was Axew whom she didn't really spend a lot of time training but was still able to beat Luke's Golett with. Emolga won the first two battles despite not being trained at all and spending her first few episodes doing everything she could to avoid battle. She can not objectively be said to be equally competent to Ash who had by this point in the series won three gym badges and had all his achievements prior to this series for which Pikachu was responsible for most of. My personal view is that Iris probably shouldn't have reached the finals. Her Excadrill is very powerful but Emolga and Axew are not. Having them win so that she can take out Pikachu with Excadrill seems like a fluke. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Iris but I just don't think she should have won this tournament.

    For Ash to loose so definitely to Iris who got through largely on luck it made it a lot worse when he failed even to reach the semi-finals in every other competition following this including the league. Winning this would have show that a) he is a competent trainer, b) would have shown Iris that he is not just a little kid and actually can train and befriend Pokémon better than she can, c) would have made up for Pikachu being used as a punching bag in episodes prior to this and most of all it would have softened the blow when Ash lost to Cameron in the league (which I get the feeling a lot of people were unhappy about). That's why I said it ruined the saga. If Ash had done better in tournaments following or in the league, or even beat Iris later on it might not have been as bad. I personally blame this episode for a substantial amount of the weakness in the BW series.

    In any case what was gained from the tournament arch. Ash won every battle except where it counted and Iris got lucky with Emogla and Axew. It makes it look like a filler arch, which I suspect it was - They needed something to fill the void after the cancellation of the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket episodes.
    If it was just filler why are you so adamant about how Ash shouldnt have lost, which he should since he was at a massive disadvantage. The other issue is that you're acing as if this was the only epiosde of BW, which it wasnt. Ash had plenty of moments showing he clearly wasnt a noob, so I fail to see how Iris winning one tournement really hurt him in the long run tbh.

  11. #386

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post


    I more or less agree with that statement, which is essentially the problem I have with Iris winning the club battle tournament. Nobody treated Ash like a beginner more than she did with the exception of Trip. Then she went on to win despite having got to the final with two untrained Pokémon who got lucky which made it even worser. Talk about rubbing salt into the wound. She even referred to him as a kid at the start the battle! At least with Trip Ash did get to prove to him that he and Pikachu were actually competent. That's improved in XY a lot given that Ash has demonstrated a lot more competence and Pikachu has been the hero of three gym battles.
    Even worse is that Trip himself can't talk as he himself is an absoulte beginner which made it worse imo and he makes fun of Ash like he knows nothing about Pokémon nor does he take into consideration his experience.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by phanpycross View Post
    If it was just filler why are you so adamant about how Ash shouldnt have lost, which he should since he was at a massive disadvantage.
    In fairness he had a similar disadvantage when he fought Georgia with Snivy and he still managed to win. It's not as if Pikachu couldn't have won. He still had Iron tail and he did get close to winning as Iris herself noted. Besides it's not as if Iris v Ash was the only possibility. Iris could and I say should have lost one of her previous battles probably Luke given Axew's youth and inexperience. Or Ash could have just used palpitoad or Oshawott (my preference) against Iris then he would not have been such a disadvantage. Or it could have been Axew v Pikachu or Emolga v Pikachu.

    Quote Originally Posted by phanpycross View Post
    The other issue is that you're acing as if this was the only epiosde of BW, which it wasnt. Ash had plenty of moments showing he clearly wasnt a noob, so I fail to see how Iris winning one tournement really hurt him in the long run tbh
    Because he did have any more moments of showing he wasn't a complete noob (I'm not sure what that word means but I'll use it anyway). He lost in the next two competitions he participated in including against Trip's Serperior with Pignite. He had already had significant losses earlier in the series most notably the one to Cress. All this served to do was vindicate Iris's your a little kid act and make Pikachu give Pikachu a savage beating. They really had it in for Pikachu in Black and White and there was no need for it - glad they've rectified that in XY. The reason I think it did hurt Ash in the long run is because it just piled up against every other significant loss he had during the BW saga which just reflected badly on Pikachu and on his other Unova Pokémon, most of whom were really good and made great characters (Oshawott especially). There were a few battles where Ash really did really really well but not enough of them featured Pikachu and they still get horribly overshadowed by this and to a lesser extent the battle against Cameron at the league.

    And if it was just filler why did we get four episodes - Four episodes for Pikachu to loose badly when Iris won the tournament on a wing and a prayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by hihosilveraway View Post
    Even worse is that Trip himself can't talk as he himself is an absoulte beginner which made it worse imo and he makes fun of Ash like he knows nothing about Pokémon nor does he take into consideration his experience.
    That is very true. But Trip was always supposed to be an unfriendly rival. Iris doing it is worse because was supposed to be a friend. Trip eventually is forced to eat his words and admit that Ash is a decent trainer when he looses to him in the preliminary battles of the league. I can't really identify the point in the series where Iris admits that Ash is a good trainer - It might have been when she was watching him take on the Striaton gym. Throughout the entire series she makes the remark 'kid' whenever he does something wrong and they tend to argue a few time. In the Path that leads to goodbye she blames him for something that any reasonable person could see was not his fault - the berry he picked was bitter. Things like that just leave me with the impression that deep down, she thought of him as her idiotic friend and stayed with him out of pity. The result in BW042 to my mind just gives her more reason to look down at him. Don't get me wrong - I like Iris I don't generally have a problem with the "your a little kid" banter that ran through the series. It was funny. This result just seems to vindicate it unneccessarily. It would have been better to have had Ash prove he is the better trainer even if it was not in this battle. If Ash had beaten Iris later on or done something noteworthy like win the next competition it would have made up for this result...
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 11th March 2015 at 2:10 PM.
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