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Thread: The Club Battle Finale: A Heroes Outcome! (703)

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonBattleFanatic- View Post
    Ash was undisputedly the best Trainer in this tournament, I was dissapointed Ash lost. Iris the hypocrite did not deserve to win when she had no idea what she was doing when matched up with Luke, plot armor helped her get the win when her untrained Axew learned Outrage, Ash got robbed big time.
    Lol, the irony being that BW Ash was at his lowest point, so he didn't deserve to win either. We need to just accept that he was doomed from the beginning.

  2. #402
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    What has been accomplished here? Absolutely nothing. Iris won nothing of value. Scratch that, she won something of value that was never used again.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

    "Momentai!"

    But this is the traditional royal Canterlot voice! It is tradition to speak, using the Royal "we", and to use THIS MUCH VOLUME WHEN ADDRESSING OUR SUBJECTS!!

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    What has been accomplished here? Absolutely nothing. Iris won nothing of value. Scratch that, she won something of value that was never used again.
    Exactly. This entire arch was a filler and a waste of time. All it's accomplished is to give Axew a new move it never used again (I don't even think it had a serious battle post this tournament) and glorify Excadrill and Iris at Ash and Pikachu's expense for no reason. Why on earth was this train wreck even included.

    None of the cast even got to battle their main rival. And why did it have to be Pikachu that lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillachu View Post
    Lol, the irony being that BW Ash was at his lowest point, so he didn't deserve to win either. We need to just accept that he was doomed from the beginning.
    He deserved to win a whole lot more than Iris. She was only in the final because a last minute learning of Outrage by Axew and Emolga finally decided to start listening.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 12th March 2016 at 4:41 AM.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  4. #404
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    i liked this tournament. i liked how the rivals interacted with each other and battled with the main group. Also i found the Iris vs Ash battle interesting especially since she won i didnt think the writers would give her a victory over Ash this early in the saga.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu979 View Post
    i liked this tournament. i liked how the rivals interacted with each other and battled with the main group. Also i found the Iris vs Ash battle interesting especially since she won i didnt think the writers would give her a victory over Ash this early in the saga.
    They shouldn't have given her that win though, not after her constantly berating him about "being a kid," and since they never gave Ash or Pikachu a win during the entire BW saga. It made the tournament pointless.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    They shouldn't have given her that win though, not after her constantly berating him about "being a kid," and since they never gave Ash or Pikachu a win during the entire BW saga. It made the tournament pointless.
    So Ash not winning makes the tournament pointless? Okay.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

    "Momentai!"

    But this is the traditional royal Canterlot voice! It is tradition to speak, using the Royal "we", and to use THIS MUCH VOLUME WHEN ADDRESSING OUR SUBJECTS!!

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    So Ash not winning makes the tournament pointless? Okay.
    In this context yes. Ash was consistently the better trainer throughout this competition, where as Iris got into the final by fluke - Axew learned Outrage at the last moment but never used it again and Emolga decided to listen to it's trainer for a change and won against Stephen despite never having battled before. It therefore didn't do any of the characters any good, it just reflects badly on Ash. After that the competition never got mentioned again and we never saw those feathers again so what was the point. How does it advance the plot of the series. We then got two other similar competitions later in the series both of which Ash didn't win, which begs the question did they have any other conceivable idea other than "let's waste time with mini-leagues." If it's not pointless what is the point.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    In this context yes. Ash was consistently the better trainer throughout this competition, where as Iris got into the final by fluke - Axew learned Outrage at the last moment but never used it again and Emolga decided to listen to it's trainer for a change and won against Stephen despite never having battled before. It therefore didn't do any of the characters any good, it just reflects badly on Ash. After that the competition never got mentioned again and we never saw those feathers again so what was the point. How does it advance the plot of the series. We then got two other similar competitions later in the series both of which Ash didn't win, which begs the question did they have any other conceivable idea other than "let's waste time with mini-leagues." If it's not pointless what is the point.
    Ash winning would have been just as pointless, so I fail to see your point.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Ash winning would have been just as pointless, so I fail to see your point.
    Not really. It would have given him an achievement to leave Unova with, made up for Pikachu's loss at the Striation gym, vindicated him to Trip and proved to Iris that he wasn't a little kid. As it was they literally could not have come up with a worse outcome for that arch.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    Not really. It would have given him an achievement to leave Unova with, made up for Pikachu's loss at the Striation gym, vindicated him to Trip and proved to Iris that he wasn't a little kid. As it was they literally could not have come up with a worse outcome for that arch.
    LOL.

    Except Iris would keep calling Ash a kid even after that. Iris calling Ash a kid isn't criticism but teasing. She would even call XY Ash a kid despite him being a battle expert. And lol, Trip doesn't care about Ash at all. Trip was a poorly written character, Ash winning wouldn't have changed a single thing.

    And if we're going to make up excuses, I can just as well say Iris winning wasn't pointless because it solidified the the Iris/Excadrill reconciliation by having them win a major tournament together.



  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    LOL.

    Except Iris would keep calling Ash a kid even after that. Iris calling Ash a kid isn't criticism but teasing.
    She would have had little cause to tease him if he'd beaten her. The fact she was teasing him is prehaps the strongest reason not to give her the victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    And if we're going to make up excuses, I can just as well say Iris winning wasn't pointless because it solidified the the Iris/Excadrill reconciliation by having them win a major tournament together.
    Iris/Excadrill reconciliation had already happened several episodes ago. And as this was their first actual battle together since having done Excadrill should not have been strong enough to do that. Not against a Pokémon that can hold it's own against a Latios. There were other ways to achieve that without using Pikachu as a punching bag.

    And the episode didn't even focus on the pair of them either. Excadrill spent a grand total of 10 minutes on screen and wasn't in any other episode in the arch.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 29th March 2016 at 10:24 AM.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    The fact she was teasing him is prehaps the strongest reason not to give her the victory.
    Iris won fair and square. Sorry, but Pikachu had no chance beating Excadrill with half of its moveset being Electric types.

    Iris/Excadrill reconciliation had already happened several episodes ago. And as this was their first actual battle together since having done Excadrill should not have been strong enough to do that. Not against a Pokémon that can hold it's own against a Latios.
    So what? The tournament was a big deal for Iris and Excadrill which warrants their victory.

    There were other ways to achieve that without using Pikachu as a punching bag.
    Did you actually watch the episode in question? Pikachu delivered many solid blows. Please rewatch the battle. o_O

    Pikachu was not a punching bag. A super big fan like you should at least know that much.

    And the episode didn't even focus on the pair of them either. Excadrill spent a grand total of 10 minutes on screen and wasn't in any other episode in the arch.
    And Pikachu was in every single episode of this anime so by logic, Excadrill deserved the win more.



  13. #413
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    Annnnnd back to the monthly discussion in this thread.....

    Jesus christ, let it be, already.

  14. #414

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    Ash and Pikachu deserved to lose here. His whole character in BW was horribly handled and he got regressed back to his OS level in this series. I honestly wouldn't even be surprised that he forgot about electric type attacks not having any effect on ground types like Excadrill here. And tbh this battle proves Iris right that Ash is a kid.
    Anyways I'm glad Iris won here since she and Excadrill needed it more for their development instead of Ash and his never-ending story.
    10/10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Iris won fair and square. Sorry, but Pikachu had no chance beating Excadrill with half of its moveset being Electric types.
    There are three problems with this

    1. Ground type immunity is not 100% cannon in the anime - Pikachu beat a Rhydon in the original series by aiming for the horn
    2. I question the choice to set the two up against each other. What purpose did that serve. It's not a great win if it was only because the odds were massively in her favour. Are you seriously telling me Ash couldn't have beaten Excardill with Palpidtoad, or Buizel or some other Pokémon.
    3. It's note entirely fair. She only got into this final by fluke after Axew last minute learned outrage. Ash was consistently the better trainer in the tournament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    So what? The tournament was a big deal for Iris and Excadrill which warrants their victory.
    Ash's victory should have been warranted more given he got nothing in the entire BW series even after 3 mini-leauge arch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Did you actually watch the episode in question? Pikachu delivered many solid blows. Please rewatch the battle. o_O
    Pikachu was not a punching bag. A super big fan like you should at least know that much.
    Yes and if that was the case it should have been a victory. Pikachu's only chance to battle in this entire episode was a loss and Pikachu had very few wins in all of BW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
    I honestly wouldn't even be surprised that he forgot about electric type attacks not having any effect on ground types like Excadrill here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
    Ash and Pikachu deserved to lose here. His whole character in BW was horribly handled and he got regressed back to his OS level in this series.
    But if he'd won it wouldn't have demonstrated a regression. It would have given a stronger appearance of competence for the remainder of the series. Avoiding the perception of regression is part of the reason this episode dragged the series down with it.

    It was clearly shown he hadn't. He chose to use Pikachu first. It was a dumb decision of the writers to set Ash up for a loss like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    And tbh this battle proves Iris right that Ash is a kid.
    That's the problem. It shouldn't have because he's not. Ash has five regions and five leagues experience over Iris. Iris can't even beat 1 gym leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Anyways I'm glad Iris won here since she and Excadrill needed it more for their development instead of Ash and his never-ending story.
    10/10
    It's the single worse episode of the anime ever and it killed BW. Ash needed it a lot more given that 1) he should have proved Iris Wrong that he wasn't a little kid and 2) he should have gone out of Unova with some achievement beyond the gym badges especially when he goes along to loose two more of these irritating mini-league archs. Iris would have had development even if she'd lost. I have no idea why people support this travesty then give similar complaints on the Unova league threads. writers have once again proven they suck at writing and that fandom should do that for them

    -10/10.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 30th March 2016 at 1:13 AM.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    There are two problems with this

    1. Ground type immunity is not 100% cannon in the anime - Pikachu beat a Rhydon in the original series by aiming for the horn
    The type chart tends to float in and out of canon in the anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    It's the single worse episode of the anime ever and it killed BW.

    -10/10
    In the series of a soft reboot, this was perfectly okay. Whether you accept to process that both the anime and the games wanted to give a fresh feel or stick your head in the gutter is up to you.

    Worst episode of the series? Care to explain why it killed BW? Don't give me the crap about "Ash, Ash, Ash." News flash, there are other characters besides Ash and that dumb animal.

    You just enjoy stirring a pot
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

    "Momentai!"

    But this is the traditional royal Canterlot voice! It is tradition to speak, using the Royal "we", and to use THIS MUCH VOLUME WHEN ADDRESSING OUR SUBJECTS!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    In the series of a soft reboot, this was perfectly okay. Whether you accept to process that both the anime and the games wanted to give a fresh feel or stick your head in the gutter is up to you.
    And the soft reboot wasn't particularly well received. BW gets negative here and elsewhere and I think it's ratings dropped in both Japan and the US. As you've noticed XY has abandoned any 'soft reset' notion and given Ash competence again. That simply should have been what they did in BW.

    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Worst episode of the series? Care to explain why it killed BW? Don't give me the crap about "Ash, Ash, Ash." News flash, there are other characters besides Ash and that dumb animal.
    You just enjoy stirring a pot
    I've already explained. I have detailed comments on this forum explaining the problems as I see them with this episode. It may be about other characters besides Ash but Ash is the protagonist and deserved better than a series that gave him a OS reboot. The rebooted Ash is partly what dropped the ratings. It killed BW mainly because the loss was never made up for and it just made every other bad battle, particularly the one at the end of the Unova league seem worse.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 29th March 2016 at 11:28 PM.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  18. #418
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    Guys, you do realize it's easier to just.... Not reply, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    And the soft reboot wasn't particularly well received. BW gets negative here and elsewhere and I think it's ratings dropped in both Japan and the US. As you've noticed XY has abandoned any 'soft reset' notion and given Ash competence again. That simply should have been what they did in BW.



    I've already explained. I have detailed comments on this forum explaining the problems as I see them with this episode. It may be about other characters besides Ash but Ash is the protagonist and deserved better than a series that gave him a OS reboot. The rebooted Ash is partly what dropped the ratings.
    Oh, deserve better? What he is nothing. He is a skin children can put on. He has no character. He's just his job. He's a joke. He is such a nonentity that I can imagine other characters in his place. BW and XY share one thing in common, not doing the characters justice. He is as bad of a character here as he was everywhere else. Flat, almost completely static, and useless. I simply can't see how people say his character is better in XY. His ability as a trainer is better, but the character was never good in the first place.

    Ash winning wouldn't change any character dynamics, nor would it be meaningful. Calling this arc filler is inaccurate as moves were learned and the strength of the rivals in a tournament was learned after rewatching this episode.
    BW died when Rocket vs Plasma was canned.
    Last edited by U.N. Owen; 29th March 2016 at 11:39 PM.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

    "Momentai!"

    But this is the traditional royal Canterlot voice! It is tradition to speak, using the Royal "we", and to use THIS MUCH VOLUME WHEN ADDRESSING OUR SUBJECTS!!

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Ash winning wouldn't change any character dynamics, nor would it be meaningful. Calling this arc filler is inaccurate as moves were learned and the strength of the rivals in a tournament was learned after rewatching this episode.
    BW died when Rocket vs Plasma was canned.
    It would have been a better ending than what we got. As for moves being learned - Axew learned a move to win a battle and never used it again. I agree with you about the cancellation of the two parter though - This arch would probably not have been included but for the loss of those episodes as there probably would have had more of Team Plasma in the series if they'd survived.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    It would have been a better ending than what we got. As for moves being learned - Axew learned a move to win a battle and never used it again. I agree with you about the cancellation of the two parter though - This arch would probably not have been included but for the loss of those episodes as there probably would have had more of Team Plasma in the series if they'd survived.
    How would it be a better ending? How on earth does changing the winner even make this a better ending? Iris benefitted the most out of this as Axew got a new move. Granted, several plot points were dropped throughout BW. What does Ash have to gain out of it? A set of wings? It's not going to make Trip respect him nor will it make him a better character or trainer.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

    "Momentai!"

    But this is the traditional royal Canterlot voice! It is tradition to speak, using the Royal "we", and to use THIS MUCH VOLUME WHEN ADDRESSING OUR SUBJECTS!!

  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    How would it be a better ending? How on earth does changing the winner even make this a better ending? Iris benefitted the most out of this as Axew got a new move. Granted, several plot points were dropped throughout BW. What does Ash have to gain out of it? A set of wings? It's not going to make Trip respect him nor will it make him a better character or trainer.
    Axew's new move is hardly a benefit given that it never used the move again. In fact Axew rarely battled seriously post this arch. Axew's learning of outrage smacks of plot amour
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    Axew's new move is hardly a benefit given that it never used the move again. In fact Axew rarely battled seriously post this arch. Axew's learning of outrage smacks of plot amour
    What does Axew learning Outrage have to do with this episode?

    It was Excadrill who defeated Pikachu.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    What does Axew learning Outrage have to do with this episode?

    It was Excadrill who defeated Pikachu.
    That battle only happened because Axew learned that move, which makes it relatively poor writing overall as Axew learning the move was a cheap plot device to win that battle. It's part of the same episode/chain of events so it's relevant.

    I find it odd that this episode has become such a fast fan favourite, that people I have never contacted nor intended to contact have added me to their ignore lists over my disagreement with it. I'm done arguing this. If people liked it that's up to them. As far as I'm concerned it's the single worst episode of the anime ever made and in my opinion demonstrates that the anime's writers can't write and that Pokémon is becoming a series who's fanfiction is better than it's actual episodes. This episode is long in the past and thankfully it's mistakes are not being repeated as Ash's battling skills and achievement have largely been restored in XY and Pikachu's finally getting the glory he deserves.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 30th March 2016 at 11:04 AM.
    This is a story about Ash Ketchum and his loving partner Pikachu. These two share a bond far beyond that of ordinary pokemon and trainer. Together they pursue Ash's dream to be pokemon master and make friends with many different people and pokemon along the way. He and Pikachu train everyday to make this happen to fulfill their dream. But the path to victory is lined with danger. There are many challenges ahead for this couple.




    By Ivy the Snivy

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    Axew learning outrage was shocking I almost forgot that it knew that. It's a shame it wasn't used again.

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