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Thread: Do you like/dislike Smogon's tiering process?

  1. #1

    Default Do you like/dislike Smogon's tiering process?

    OK, I see so much mindless hating on Smogon here that it seems sort of ridiculous at times, and the base of all that hatred seems to be centered around the tier list and their tier creation process, but it seems like for the most part, the people who comment on how much they hate smogon and such have no idea how the tiering process works.

    So basically this thread is an attempt to get those of you who don't understand the tiering process properly to read something about it, and explain why you like/dislike smogon's tiering process!

  2. #2
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    I'm acting against my better judgement by approving this but.. if you can all keep this civil (haha) I'll allow it.

    But I want to get something out of the way before it comes up.. A lot of you think Smogon is "ban happy". Here is this gen's banlist..

    Arceus
    Blaziken
    Darkrai
    Deoxys (Attack Forme)
    Deoxys (Normal Forme)
    Dialga
    Garchomp
    Giratina (Altered Forme)
    Giratina (Origin Forme)
    Groudon
    Ho-Oh
    Kyogre
    Lugia
    Manaphy
    Mewtwo
    Palkia
    Rayquaza

    Reshiram
    Shaymin (Sky Forme)
    Zekrom

    Everything in Red was banned last gen too. Most were version legendaries or base 680s like Mewtwo and Dialga. Others were unquestionably broken like Darkrai or Shaymin S.

    Zekrom and Reshiram were added to this list because of obvious base stat totals and ridiculous destructive potential.

    Blaziken so far is THE ONLY Pokemon ban so far that wasn't legendary. Swift Swim + Drizzle and the Inconsistent ban was done to PREVENT more things from going to ubers.

    In fact the Ubers list is smaller this gen.

    Latios
    Latias
    Deoxys S
    Deoxys D
    Salamence
    Wobbuffet
    Mew


    These were all unbanned. Not to mention Garchomp, Manaphy, Shaymin S Deoxys N, Deoxys A and Darkrai being given a shot in OU. So before anyone starts shouting their mouth off about Smogon being "ban happy" keep in mind they've unbanned far more than banned this gen. Chances are you're just angry about Blaziken, but no one cares.

  3. #3

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    Smogons got one of the best riering processes going on right now. I thik the reason most people don't like them is because they feel forced to abide by the rules or something. The Tiers are based on whats used, assuming things that are good will be more used. Heracross is UU cause no one uses it, not because Smogon doesn't want you to have fun. Umbreon is NU because no one uses it, it doesnt matter that its your favorite. Garchomp is Uber because its broken and makes the game to reliant on luck.

  4. #4

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    I agree with MOST of this. I do think more should be banned, like ferrothorn.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Remorph View Post
    I do think more should be banned, like ferrothorn.
    whatisthisidonteven

    I do think that Smogon's policy, while not exactly being ban-happy, does encourage bans to an extent. It's fairly easy to get something banned under it, since all it takes is a base of voters more partial to the cause to create a bandwagon. I'd like to cite Reuniclus and Excadrill as examples of this.

    Still, the end result is always fine, so I dunno. I do think there should be a rule implemented, though, that there needs to be a REALLY good reason to put a Pokemon back on the chopping block after two nominations for it to be banned have failed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remorph View Post
    I agree with MOST of this. I do think more should be banned, like ferrothorn.
    There's no reason to ban ferrothorn. A simple flamethrower can kill him in usually one, maybe two shots. Otherwise, conkeldurr just rapes him to death. Actually most fighting types do regardless of weather. So, yeah, just cause you don't like ferrothorn doesn't mean its anywhere near broken (and trust me, I HATE ferrothorn with a passion, but it's a good poke) The only thing they had to ban left in OU was thunderus and idk if thy will go through or not. He's really only broken under rain, but I always have a gastrodon just in case. Other then maybe how long the process can take at times, it's all good. You can't really complain about how the tiers are ATM so why bother whining? Besides, you still gotta give them credit for being able to sit through the long a** process and then having to listen to the "uneducated" whiners who don't like that blaziken is just not coming out of uber. Oh yeah, chandelure will probably at least be a suspect when they release it's DW ability, but I doubt it will be enough to make it to ubers. Then again, what do I know

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    Depends really. I just dislike how repetitive the OU tier is. Rarely do I come across a trainer there who doesn't have the same team as another. But, if your goal is to win, it makes perfect sense.

    It's just fun to smash through expected OU teams though. If you fight the same pokes 43845 times, you'd have to be pretty dense not to figure out a counter. Hell, even without many other pokemon in the OU tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remorph View Post
    I agree with MOST of this. I do think more should be banned, like ferrothorn.
    He's pretty easy to counter.
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    Ferrothorn shouldn't be banned!

    Creative teams with unexpected Pokémon who still can win, are the best. I kinda dislike the tiers.

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    I'm not happy because Staraptor is BL not UU..
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSuperZekrom View Post
    I'm not happy because Staraptor is BL not UU..
    Don't tell me you didn't expect it.


    I think that Smogon's tiering is probably the fairest way to do things.
    Rather than assign tiers by theory and base stats, it's put into practice and the players can change the position of pokémon.

    It's all down to usage, the more useful pokémon are, the more likely they will be used by players. Obviously, usefulness isn't always the case, as seen with Quagsire/Gastrodon and Swampert, but for the most part the pokémon in a tier deserve to be in that tier.

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    Yeah, Smogon is not ban happy. Thats why Mew is UU, and Latios has stayed OU. Thundurus is really the only pokemon left to ban, although people have found their ways by him (i.e Stone Edge Dugtrio, Scarf Landorus, and CB Mamo). There isnt really anything else thatis 'broken' and hasnt already been banned.
    So in my mind no, Smogon is not ban happy, since they have only banned the most broken pokemon out there.


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    I don't really care that much.

    I really only lurk on Smogon to get ideas for movesets and such. I don't post in their forums, and I use the PO server most of the time.

    That said, most things that get banned deserved to be banned for some reason. Speed Boost Blaziken was on every team when it was allowed. My god that was a nightmare if you weren't prepared. <_<

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mon1010 View Post
    I don't really care that much.

    I really only lurk on Smogon to get ideas for movesets and such. I don't post in their forums, and I use the PO server most of the time.

    That said, most things that get banned deserved to be banned for some reason. Speed Boost Blaziken was on every team when it was allowed. My god that was a nightmare if you weren't prepared. <_<
    And I still run into too many of them from people who somehow are able to use Blaziken in OU.

    I don't see where all this hate comes from. People whine because their favorite pokemon is in a low tier, but it's because they aren't very good. Their tier is generally best for them. I agree with how Smogon does it. Tiers aren't stupid, they balance out the game. And Smogon is NOT ban-happy. Everything that's been banned needed to be banned. (Blaziken, DW Chandelure, Garchomp) See where I'm going? All of them were broken.

    Oh, yeah, and Reshiram/Zekrom were added because they didn't exist in 4th gen. And for the reasons stated.


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    Smogon probably does have the best tiering processes at the moment. The members there put a lot of work into testing Pokemon within the current metagame and then base their votes depending on that. It's probably the best way to do it. As for the bans, I wouldn't exactly call them "Ban happy" because as of yet they haven't really made any outrageous bans at all. I think at the moment they're doing a really good job. Everyone's saying Thundurus is to be next, but honestly speaking, I don't find it that much of an issue that it needs to be banned from OU. But that's my own opinion. ^^'

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    smogon's tiering makes sense, and i dont think they are ban happy or latios and thundurus would be there
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    It's really just a tool, not a straightjacket. You're free to use it as you wish, and it's really just there as a guide.

    I think it's pretty useful, plus they give some pretty good competitive advice.

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    people may say smogon's tiering process sucks, but not many wil ltake the time to do al lthat work to see if the pokemon actually needs to be banned. I think it's fine for now, i just wish it would go faster when choosing to ban something.
    Yep we should ban baton pass, and weather too. Oh and Trick Room, I'm tired of having to worry about Trick Room all the time. Just ban the move Trick Room, and prankster, it's broken. Ban all status moves on prankster users, they're too cheap. Oh and ban Probopass to it's so cheap. Just ban everything except Magikarp with splash.
    Well, actually Blaziken isn't really Uber because some people whined about how they were getting owned by it. I mean, it doesn't stand a chance in the Uber enviroment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LetsGoJeto View Post
    Depends really. I just dislike how repetitive the OU tier is. Rarely do I come across a trainer there who doesn't have the same team as another. But, if your goal is to win, it makes perfect sense.

    It's just fun to smash through expected OU teams though. If you fight the same pokes 43845 times, you'd have to be pretty dense not to figure out a counter. Hell, even without many other pokemon in the OU tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAceGlaceon View Post
    Creative teams with unexpected Pokémon who still can win, are the best. I kinda dislike the tiers.
    This is sort of why I wish they allowed analysis for weaker Pokemon like Shuckle and Slaking but whatever you can still use them on the simulators.

    Anyways I do like their tiering system however I'm still bummed about Blaziken being uber but don't get me started on all the complex bans I can come up with for the other ubers.
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    ^^^

    Agreed.

    SB blaze and sand veil garchomp are not that hard to counter. Hell, you don't even have to make your team around being able to counter those. You just have to understand the gameplay and hopefully your pokemon can counter all sorts of situations.
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    Smogon is in no way shape or form ban happy. Honestly, SB Blaziken was ridiculously overpowered and with an Adamant set, he could have swept whole teams with his great Offensive Typing. Garchomp was soooooo broken in the Sand, half the time, it could just use SD to +6 and sweep everything because it is nearly un-hittable. I am also glad they let the Lati Twins out of Ubers, because they aren't broken without Soul Dew. I know when Soul Dew is released (if it ever is), we will have to say bye to the Lati Twins but Smogon does this for the players. If you complain, that is your loss because if any of the Pokemon that are in Ubers as of right now were in OU, they would most definitely be broken.




    EDIT: If Thundurus is banned I will cry in a corner.
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  21. #21

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    To me, Smogon's system is fine. I find it somewhat hilarious when people act like Smogon is this single-minded dictatoral force that tries to "control" competitive Pokemon. Quite the opposite, Smogon's tiering process is controlled by the competitive community as a whole, and who better to decide the fate of the metagame than those who are experienced in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by LetsGoJeto View Post
    ^^^

    Agreed.

    SB blaze and sand veil garchomp are not that hard to counter. Hell, you don't even have to make your team around being able to counter those. You just have to understand the gameplay and hopefully your pokemon can counter all sorts of situations.
    That's interesting. So what counters exactly did you come up with for Blaziken?

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSuperZekrom View Post
    I'm not happy because Staraptor is BL not UU..
    It has no counters when used with Reckless. It is banned for the same reason it was in gen 4 and gained no counters in return. Bronzong and Metang are obscure counters. Regirock and Rhyperior can get covered by CC pretty well since they lack reliable recovery. Rotom is too frail. Heck, its power caused people to make Dugtrio + 5 bird teams and leaderboard.

    Scarfed Staraptor could 2HKO Slowbro 100% of the time with Brave Bird. However you would need 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock, but even that is very ridiculous.

    I participated in 6 suspect tests on Smogon, voted 6 times, and continue to be a strong supporter of their tiering system. It is literally the best you can find online.


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    I'd say that all of Smogon's existing bans are fair enough. I wasn't a fan of the Drizzle+SS ban at first, but I've won enough uber battles with SS Ludicolo to realize its effects on the OU world. Still admittedly butthurt about Sand+Rush still legal, but I guess I'll live with Mach Punchers on my teams now.

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    Speed boost blaziken is not easy to counter lol especially mixed sets

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    That's interesting. So what counters exactly did you come up with for Blaziken?
    Rarely are they sent out first. One time, he was and he did a bulk up/baton pass to ramporos. My inferape lead used fire blast, got the burn hax so that was luck. Otherwise I would have lost lol.

    So it's a threat that I had to worry about later on. After my lead sets up stealth rock and such, I switch to espeon to put up dual screens. With magic bounce, I don't worry about entry hazards.

    For blaze, I have to set up my dragonite before the screens wear off. If dragonite's set up, I have nothing to worry about. My bulky vaporeon counters well if **** hits the fan. But yeah, thank goodness for dragonite.
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