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Thread: Libya conflict,and the western involvement.

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    Default Libya conflict,and the western involvement.

    So I woke up this morning turned on the early news to see that Gaddafi (Libya dictator) had retaliated against rebel forces,and the interview showed the rebels preparing for a civil war.Then the reports turn to clip of a US ship arriving close to Libya's shore,and apparently British,and Canadian also moving in.

    Now its been stated by both Gaddafi and rebel general Abdul Fatah Younis,that they do not want foreign intervention (yet the rebal general,said he would welcome air strikes against the dictators forces as long as no foreign troops set foot on land) and that the matter would be resolved amongst the people of Libya.

    So this debate is about whether or not westerners should get involved with Libya's conflict or not.

    I also have to make a note on how i find it kind stupid how the rebels would ask for air strikes yet they wouldn't let troops in to help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cool_Trainer_Tyrone View Post
    I also have to make a note on how i find it kind stupid how the rebels would ask for air strikes yet they wouldn't let troops in to help.
    Simple. They want to win, yet they don't want to deal with a western occupation afterwards.

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    Should we? Negligible.

    Will we? Yes, because we want Libyan oil.

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    So the U.S. is pushing the debt limit higher, it's quarreling about a budget to the point of threatening a government shutdown, the budget cuts we are taking are still apparently too modest for some people and they want to cut even more out of social programs, and yet, we can still find money for...what number war is this?

    It doesn't always have to be the U.S. We (the U.S) should politely excuse ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    So the U.S. is pushing the debt limit higher, it's quarreling about a budget to the point of threatening a government shutdown, the budget cuts we are taking are still apparently too modest for some people and they want to cut even more out of social programs, and yet, we can still find money for...what number war is this?

    It doesn't always have to be the U.S. We (the U.S) should politely excuse ourselves.
    Uhh.. can you source when the US mentioned any possibility of going to war?

    The only things I can find AT ALL is Australia mentioning possibly military action (I think referencing a no fly zone to prevent mercenaries and helicopter attacks on protesters) and British special forces possibly seizing Gaddafi chemical weapon stockpiles.

    The US ship/s are there to increase pressure on Gaddafi and presumably humanitarian aid and evacuation for US citizens, the same thing several other countries are doing.


    At worst we'll launch a few air strikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Uhh.. can you source when the US mentioned any possibility of going to war?

    The only things I can find AT ALL is Australia mentioning possibly military action (I think referencing a no fly zone to prevent mercenaries and helicopter attacks on protesters) and British special forces possibly seizing Gaddafi chemical weapon stockpiles.

    The US ship/s are there to increase pressure on Gaddafi and presumably humanitarian aid and evacuation for US citizens, the same thing several other countries are doing.

    At worst we'll launch a few air strikes.
    Excuse me - military action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yahoo
    "So no illusions here," CENTCOM Commander Gen. Jim Mattis told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "It would be a military operation. It wouldn't be just telling people not to fly airplanes."
    Quote Originally Posted by Yahoo
    "We also have to think about, frankly, the use of the U.S. military in another country in the Middle East," Gates told reporters at the Pentagon Tuesday.
    What buisiness do we have adding to our codependant relationship with the Middle East when we're in such a bad state at home? My city is cutting funds to its schools and its library and firing teachers even though we need them. My state, California, is bankrupt. How grating is it to see the government cutting funds for our living space, then without our consent, deciding to spend a substantial amount of money on nation building abroad? Why don't they take care of their family, their homeland first?
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 3rd March 2011 at 3:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    Excuse me - military action.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...rest-continues





    What buisiness do we have adding to our codependant relationship with the Middle East when we're in such a bad state at home? My city is cutting funds to its schools and its library and firing teachers even though we need them. My state, California, is bankrupt. How grating is it to see the government cutting funds for our living space, then without our consent, deciding to spend a substantial amount of money on nation building abroad? Why don't they take care of their family, their homeland first?
    Did you even read that article? It pretty much said "yeah we could take military action but its obviously a bad idea and everyone knows better".

    Libyan rebels will overtake the nationalist forces possibly with the help of multinational help in the form of air strikes and humanitarian / weapons aid. We aren't going to create a third middle east war out of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Did you even read that article? It pretty much said "yeah we could take military action but its obviously a bad idea and everyone knows better".
    Yeah I read it. I saw that they were thinking they could. And I am rightfully passionate about my preference that they don't, because it's not a certainty that they're not going to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Libyan rebels will overtake the nationalist forces possibly with the help of multinational help in the form of air strikes and humanitarian / weapons aid. We aren't going to create a third middle east war out of this.
    Great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    Yeah I read it. I saw that they were thinking they could. And I am rightfully passionate about my preference that they don't, because it's not a certainty that they're not going to.
    lol its not going to happen.

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    The Middle East is where we currently get oil. In my area at least, and it should be for all Americans to my knowledge, that the price of gas as increased a lot in only a few weeks. The price of groceries too. Libya's causing a lot of problems, and its bad.

    Gaddafi sounds pretty insane, but maybe thats just how the public's media portrays him. He really doesn't want to let the people to win and doesn't seem to be afraid to start a Civil War. On one side, I think he's crazy and should let the people have a democracy. On the other hand, I'm hoping that who ever takes over the country at the end isn't involved with terrorist organizations in the Middle East.

    I don't think America should go and start something, but someone should.
    Last edited by evolutionrex; 3rd March 2011 at 4:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evolutionrex View Post

    I don't think America should go and start something, but someone should.
    Who? the Chinese? their government has such a brialliant record of human rights.
    The Russians? why the hell would they get involved? it dosn't concern them, so why bother?
    India? see above.
    Every country is either not powerful or motivated enough to do anything drastic in Libya.
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    Gaddafi sounds pretty insane
    Gaddafi. DELUSIONAL, possibly. INSANE, debatable, probably not.
    He's a very smart, tactical man. He's said some pretty delusional things over the last week or so, but he knows damn well what he's doing.
    You don't have power for 42 years if you're insane.

    Edit: Oh yeah, Gaddafi DID order the Lockerbie bomb personally, which makes him seem crazy, but that was actually a retaliatory action for something the Americans did to Libya about a year before, they actually bombed Gaddafi's palace, among other places.
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    I'm bumping this thread since the U.S. is now obviously taking action against Gadaffi.

    Obama declared his intentions in Chile, and didn't consult Congress, drawing more ire from groups all over the US. Obama is not calling it a war, but the media is portraying it as the first war under Obama's regime. So far the U.S. has contributed missile strikes and a few ground forces, which is a little hard to confirm.

    There's a viral video going about where Biden tells MSNBC during the 2008 campaign that he would seek to impeach Bush for the Iraq War; Kucinich claimed Obama should be impeached and that Libya was not a threat and he initiated action in the wrong way. Since then he has taken back his words, which (IMO) Kucinich is known for.

    A recent poll shows that 60% of Americans support our action over there. Front page articles on Yahoo have been suggesting that Obama isn't sure what we're doing in Libya, we don't particularly understand the rebels that we're helping or their identities, and of course this is all going down in the midst of a budget crisis.

    My opinion remains that since the U.S. is suffering, its very leader of all people have a responsibility to take care of their own before taking proactive action in another country. Now I believe also, that initiating the Libyan military operation is possibly the most useless, arbitrary, and domestically insulting move to make, even beyond that of Bush starting the Iraq War. Obama went on CNN, trying to rationalize the need for the war and explain why he declared it while in Chile - it was a matter of expedience and the need to start as soon as possible to preserve lives.

    Opinions?
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 25th March 2011 at 10:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke Yggdrasill View Post
    Should we? Negligible.

    Will we? Yes, because we want Libyan oil.
    Of course, lets adopt stereotypes and labels.

    @SunnyC: It's true the rebels have little, and maybe nothing, in common beyond their reasonable hate of Gaddafi. (and this could be problematic in the future) My fear is that we could see Iran 1979 in Libya 2011, a democratic revolution took place only to be hijacked by Islamic extremists. That will replace a dictator with another authoritarian regime.

    But, then again, the anti-Gaddafi sentiment may cause Libyans to be cautious or even hostile to a government that appears too tyrannical in nature.

    As for your statement of the most useless military move. I doubt it, it assists the rebels in disposing Gaddafi. It will be hard to rule with an iron fist after he's gone. Also, was the West supposed to just sit back and watch the slaughter? were we supposed to pat ourselves on the back and stoke our ego for avoiding a mess while people in another nation bled for a better future? Were we supposed to abandon them to their fates? How can we preach democracy if we leave every dictator alone simply because we don't want to stain our conscience?
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    Honestly the guy hired mercenaries from countries all over the region because his own countries army has stopped taking orders, there are articles about pilots in the Libyan military bailing out over neighboring countries to escape and not carry out their orders. Generally that is a sign that the guy needs to be removed from power, he is holding it by sheer force and none of his people want him in anymore.

    All in all though I think that they just need to cut his money flow off. The instant those mercenaries stop being payed they are going to leave, and the regular army isn't very loyal, so cut off his funds and he falls. But of course they would never do something to damage our oil supply, even if the actual damage is minimal. (The immediate and long term effects of one country's oil being cut off are much, much smaller than the price changes show, that is just a bunch of speculators figuring they can make a fortune, and usually they do.)
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    Note: I'm going to refrain from referring to any country in particular, since this topic is about the West in general.

    I personally think that the Western Hemisphere should not get involved in Libya beyond what the rebel forces approve of. The current involvement is fine, and if the rebels ask for some ground assistance, by all means, give it to them. The main issue I see is that any excess force supplied by Western forces could increase Anti-Western sentiment throughout the Middle East. But as long as the West only gives the rebels what they're asking for, I see no problem with that.

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    If it's going to get this man out of power? Okay. If it's going to end millions of lives? No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breeder Drew View Post
    If it's going to get this man out of power? Okay. If it's going to end millions of lives? No.
    Considering that Libya's population is only 6.4 million, and this probably won't be on the WWII Eastern Front scale, I wouldn't expect this revolution to end MILLIONS of lives. Maybe 10,000. And that's a pretty generous estimate.

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    I agree T-Moar, further the West was asked by help by the Arab League and so long as the interference does not increase in intensity it should stay approved.

    Honestly I'm not sure how much Americans pay attention tot he rest of the world... 2/3 of the country thinks that we shouldn't help out in Darfur if it may cost 100 American lives, they don't seem to realize that as sad as it may be 100 lives is worth tens of thousands (this was back in 2006 from a poll, I believe)...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    My opinion remains that since the U.S. is suffering, its very leader of all people have a responsibility to take care of their own before taking proactive action in another country. Now I believe also, that initiating the Libyan military operation is possibly the most useless, arbitrary, and domestically insulting move to make, even beyond that of Bush starting the Iraq War. Obama went on CNN, trying to rationalize the need for the war and explain why he declared it while in Chile - it was a matter of expedience and the need to start as soon as possible to preserve lives.

    Opinions?
    Then Obama should never have gone to Chile. Expediency was a factor, because he and others allowed the UN to run things, and that is always a recipe for disaster. But if things were so bad ( and they were ) that he had to order military intervention right then. Then Obama should have stayed home, spoke to the American people as to why he was putting American Assets and American Lives on the line for people who make up 1/5th of the terrorists that are trying to kill us in Iraq.

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    Big, that is a flawed idea. Part of the reason we are so resented around the world is because we always wrestle away control of things from others and lead it ourselves. France leading this may get the US criticized for not leading, but it will also make it far less likely the US will be resents for our actions, as we all too often are.

    Obama can't just cancel a trip to a foreign country at the last minute because we are sending some planes into Libya, it would insult Chile and would never satisfy anyone that he is taking the right course of action. (that really is the extent of our involvement, very advanced planes that they really can't counter).

    And as stupid as it may sound,t hat is precisely the reason why it is important that we help stabilize the country, a stable country has far, far few dissenters who can be taken up by the messages terrorists use to get people to join them. People have to be very discontent to be terrorists, remove the discontent and terrorist numbers will dwindle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    Big, that is a flawed idea. Part of the reason we are so resented around the world is because we always wrestle away control of things from others and lead it ourselves. France leading this may get the US criticized for not leading, but it will also make it far less likely the US will be resents for our actions, as we all too often are.
    And look where such a action got us. A few weeks ago the rebels were poised to that Tripoli. Gaddafi was about to fall. And then he began to fight back using his aircraft. At which point a no fly zone would have been helpful and help win the war. But we waited, and waited, and waited. So that everyone is happy. And by doing that we very well could have lost this war, or at best prolonged it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    Obama can't just cancel a trip to a foreign country at the last minute because we are sending some planes into Libya, it would insult Chile and would never satisfy anyone that he is taking the right course of action. (that really is the extent of our involvement, very advanced planes that they really can't counter).
    Er yes he can. Dignitaries cancel trips all the time because of crisis at home or abroad with their country. If Chile was going to feel so slighted by the fact that Obama rescheduled the trip because he was sending his countrymen off to war and had to explain it to his nation why. Then Chile has the diplomacy level and knowledge of a five year old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    And as stupid as it may sound,t hat is precisely the reason why it is important that we help stabilize the country, a stable country has far, far few dissenters who can be taken up by the messages terrorists use to get people to join them. People have to be very discontent to be terrorists, remove the discontent and terrorist numbers will dwindle.
    That is unless the terrorist supporters win this war and gain power

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    And look where such a action got us. A few weeks ago the rebels were poised to that Tripoli. Gaddafi was about to fall. And then he began to fight back using his aircraft. At which point a no fly zone would have been helpful and help win the war. But we waited, and waited, and waited. So that everyone is happy. And by doing that we very well could have lost this war, or at best prolonged it.
    WE are not fighting this war. The Libyans are. We are providing a little bit of assistance, but that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Moar View Post
    WE are not fighting this war. The Libyans are. We are providing a little bit of assistance, but that's it.
    By little you mean firing of hundreds of missiles, devoting dozens of jets, attacking any military target that moves, and possibly attempting to assassinate the leader? Funny that seems pretty much like a war to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    By little you mean firing of hundreds of missiles, devoting dozens of jets, attacking any military target that moves, and possibly attempting to assassinate the leader? Funny that seems pretty much like a war to me.
    As of the status quo:

    1. We are not attacking most military targets. NATO is controlling and enforcing a no-fly zone, but that's it.

    2. We ARE NOT attempting to assassinate the leader. This has been made perfectly clear by the US government several times.

    So, yeah. That's not a war. Iraq and Afghanistan, where we are actively attacking militants, are wars. Libya is not. Libya is on the verge of war, but it is not a war right now.

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