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Thread: Excadrill is gone, now what?

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    Default Excadrill is gone, now what?

    Excadrill: 49 Ban, 22 Do Not Ban, 3 Abstain = 69.01% Ban

    So as most of you know, Excadrill was banned just six days ago by Smogon's suspect voting process. The vote was above the supermajority threshold ([2/3]+1). This is a 350% spike in ban votes from last round. Myself, user epic_eevee, and user Thatsjustpeachy were the only known voters from Serebii for this specific round. I got my voting rights revoked for posting in the Pokémon voting thread "none of the abilities got banned so it's not like this any of this shit matters." However, epic_eevee and Thatsjustpeachy were still allowed to vote. epic_eevee voted to ban both Thundurus and Excadrill, and Thatsjustpeachy did not vote to ban anything.

    To some of you, Excadrill being banned might not look important, but this is huge. We still have Drought and Drizzle out there, and their arch-nemesis in Tyranitar has been put out of place and made slightly less viable. Not to mention that Dragonite and Volcarona have one less check, and not to mention that heavy offense (Deoxys-S) isn't tampered by Excadrill screwing with the speed tiers anymore. I honestly don't think we're in for a "fixed metagame," if anything, we're in for another piece of trash round.

    I'd like to explain the only valid voting template, at least in my opinion. Drought and Drizzle should've been banned. If Drought and Drizzle got banned, then suddenly Excadrill is a problem because it doesn't need to worry about losing its x2 boost to its speed it needs to sweep. So we ban Excadrill. But that also makes heavy offense a more valid playstyle, and with a dual screener that can almost always get up both screens and Stealth Rock down in Deoxys-S out there, we need to ban Deoxys-S. Dragonite and Volcarona aren't as unbeatable without weather (boosted Fire Punch / Waterfall, Fiery Dance / neutrality to water), although still troublesome since one of their checks is gone. Excadrill effected a massive part of the metagame. It could spin to fuck with stall, it could boost to fuck with balance, and just by being fast he fucked with offense.

    So, how does everyone feel about a metagame without Excadrill?

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    stoutland ftw
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    As someone who never used Sand I don't care that much. But I will enjoy not having to sacrifice half my team to kill it and will probably try a Sun team to celebrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swagga09 View Post
    stoutland ftw
    Agree

    The metagame is sure better now that excadrill is banned, as there isn't just something that outspeed the whole metagame without boosting.
    Now that there are other pokemons who can be the fastest but they tie with something else, it is more balanced and better now we see less balloon pokemon, less gliscor, less skarmory, which were really annoying for the rest of the metagame.

    Although deoxys-S is really fast it isn't faster than scarfed 108 base speed (looking at terrakion) pokemons it can still be taunted by tornadus,sableye and whimsicott.

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        Spoiler:- When it's released:
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser soze View Post
    As someone who never used Sand I don't care that much. But I will enjoy not having to sacrifice half my team to kill it and will probably try a Sun team to celebrate.
    I think that Drought will be the predominant weather of this round, a lot of people think that Drizzle can trump Drought but Drought can usually come out on top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan View Post
    The metagame is sure better now that excadrill is banned, as there isn't just something that outspeed the whole metagame without boosting.
    There was something called broken checking broken, it's pretty important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan View Post
    Now that there are other pokemons who can be the fastest but they tie with something else, it is more balanced and better now we see less balloon pokemon, less gliscor, less skarmory, which were really annoying for the rest of the metagame.
    Less Gliscor, more Choice Band Terrakion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan View Post
    Although deoxys-S is really fast it isn't faster than scarfed 108 base speed (looking at terrakion) pokemons it can still be taunted by tornadus,sableye and whimsicott.
    Scarf Terrakion can't 2hko Deoxys-S with Stone Edge, giving it a solid three turns to set up if it uses Reflect the first turn, assuming Stone Edge doesn't miss in the first place. Both Sableye and Whimsicott are shit, and Tornadus can get beaten by Magic Coat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swagga09 View Post
    stoutland ftw
    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
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    Metagame without Excadrill discussion, please!

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    Excadrill's banned? FLUB YEAH!!!!! Now maybe people will focus on OTHER Ground-Types!

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    I can see Sun becoming popular now, especially since it's the only weather with 2x speed abilities legal. Sand has lost a lot of its initial appeal with the removal of Chompy and Drill, and a good Sun team will have variety that can check your stereotypical Rain team. Kind of wish I could run Drought in UU though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bone Cold Marowak Guy View Post
    Excadrill's banned? FLUB YEAH!!!!! Now maybe people will focus on OTHER Ground-Types!
    It doesn't mean bad ground-types like Sandslash will get a shot at OU, and it doesn't mean Gastrodon and Gliscor will go up in usage. It doesn't really effect anything like that...

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser soze View Post
    I can see Sun becoming popular now, especially since it's the only weather with 2x speed abilities legal. Sand has lost a lot of its initial appeal with the removal of Chompy and Drill, and a good Sun team will have variety that can check your stereotypical Rain team. Kind of wish I could run Drought in UU though.
    I've actually been messing around with a Drought team devoid of Chlorophyll users, and damn is Drought still really good without them. Currently using Ninetales / Donphan / Volcarona / Dragonite / Roserade / Heatran, and it's pretty neato.

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    As a stall player, I'm not a fan of the Excadrill ban. Now Heavy Offense is a lot more prominent and Max Speed Acrobaticas Gliscor are starting to appear. I agree with your points about Drought and Drizzle, though. I think that the term of "winning the weather war" is less relevant with sand, as it isn't as dominating as Drought/Drizzle. Sand is merely quelling the other weather types when they 'Win the weather war'. Sun is going to dominate the metagame, most likely, considering how effective Volcarona is in Drought and the fact that Chlorophyll is still allowed, so stuff like Sawsbuck can rip through the metagame, the fire types are obviously more potent under drought, but Sawsbuck/Venu is a great cleaner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cometk View Post
    Metagame without Excadrill discussion, please!
    Once it's Dream World is released, with STAB Earthquake, Rapid Spin, X-Scissor, Rock Slide, Return, and Swords Dance, Sandslash will be the new Excadrill. That didn't sound right.
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    I am a major fan of the Excadrill ban. It leads to a healthier metagame overall.

    I originally thought it wasn't uber, but I was then swayed to believing it is uber. I would have voted it uber during this test if I had the time to get voting rights. Be prepared to see more glass cannon hyper offense teams, more smash pass, more offensive spikes, and more rain stall.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Once it's Dream World is released, with STAB Earthquake, Rapid Spin, X-Scissor, Rock Slide, Return, and Swords Dance, Sandslash will be the new Excadrill. That didn't sound right.
    I don't think Sandslash is good enough to fill Excadrill's role, but it will be a decent imitator. It will probably end up either in the lower portion of OU, or in BL. Sandslash also gets Stone Edge, so you don't have to use Rock Slide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Once it's Dream World is released, with STAB Earthquake, Rapid Spin, X-Scissor, Rock Slide, Return, and Swords Dance, Sandslash will be the new Excadrill. That didn't sound right.
    With only Base 100 Atk, low speed, and hilariously bad special defense? I don't think so...

    Anyhow, I kinda like having Excadrill gone. There's a lot less worry about needing to run Gliscor or Skarmory. There are a few more Sun and Rain teams here and there, but Rain teams are more manageable with Thundurus gone and even though Sun is probably the most powerful of the weathers, few people seems to know how to really use one these days. One thing I have noticed are a few more HO teams, most notably Deoxys-S. Excadrill checked it well with its speed, power, and Rapid Spin, and having him gone is a load off Deoxys's chest. I expect him to be nominated again, and under a different light this time.

    But I wouldn't say the metagame is total trash. In fact, I think it's still a little too early to really say how good or bad the metagame is right now. But we'll see how this unfolds.

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    I honestly can care less. I hope to see more ingenuity with the higher level metagame now, but chances are I shall be dissapointed in that regard and we will just see a rise in a few pokemon; Dragonite and Volcarona were mentioned for examples by some people already.

    As for what we shall see afterwards, I doubt we will see more glass cannons and hyper offensive teams in there. There are still a ton of defensive pokemon in the metagame that can out-stall or downright cripple the unprepared still.

    I don't know...I honestly see very little changing fundamentally, the only thing is that some usage will go down for specific pokemons, and few will go up and maybe become popular.
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    We could sit and sulk about it...
    Or we could find a replacement like we've done when every other good Pokemon is banned.

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    While I like Excadrill out of the metagame, I never really had any trouble with it. Partly because only 1 of 10 battles I fight are sand teams and quite a few don't use Exca for some reason, but also partly because I had three checks to him on my team(BalloonHeatran, Conkledurr and Gliscor). Even then, none of them are all that good. BalloonTran rarely had his Balloon intact by the time they released Exca. Conk cannot switch-in too well and Gliscor is vulnerable to flinchhax. When it did show up, it may have taken down at least one of my pokes but never took down more than one member.
    At least from my perspective, Excadrill didn't deserve a ban. (unless everyone I played was a bad player of course)

    As for the metagame today, sand teams have taken three low blows this gen. First we got competing auto-weathers, then Garchomp and Excadrill get banned, the premier sand sweepers. So then, what shall replace Excadrill as the face of SandSweeper(barring Stoutland and Sandslash, since I doubt they'll make it out of UU)? Landorus seems like a safe bet. Cool speed tier. Sand Force and typing make it a huge threat. It's no where near as fast as Excadrill but much more powerful. Life Orb+Swords Dance+Sand Force give it about 1180 attack.
    To put that in perspective:
    StoneEdge vs. 252/252 Impish Skarmory 61.1-71.9
    Earthquake vs. 252/0 Careful Jirachi 177.2-208.9
    SE vs. 112/0 Modest Rotom-W 125.7-148
    SE vs. 252/80 Sassy Bronzong 43.5-51.2
    SE vs. 252/184 Impish Gliscor 65.5-76.8
    SE vs. 252/0 Adamant Dragonite 129-152.3
    EQ vs. 252/252 Relaxed Forrestress 57.6-67.8

    I'm just throwing some random calcs around but, apart from Bronzong, Landorus completely trashes the metagame. Everything that doesn't resist it is OHKOed or 2KOed by Earthquake(even Forretress, the highest defence in OU). The speed is the issue here though. 101 Speed is fast but Starmie, the musketeers and priority can still ruins it's day, especially Ice Shards from Mamoswine or worse: Scarfed Politoed's Rain-boosted Hydro Pump.
    So, Landorus. Whaddya think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    But I wouldn't say the metagame is total trash. In fact, I think it's still a little too early to really say how good or bad the metagame is right now. But we'll see how this unfolds.
    Maybe I stated it too harshly. The metagame won't be "trash" per se, but I don't see it being healthy and fine and stable any time soon like others have claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowKyogre443 View Post
    We could sit and sulk about it...
    Or we could find a replacement like we've done when every other good Pokemon is banned.
    What are you talking about, replacement? So far I've seen nothing effectively replace Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, Blaziken, or Garchomp. You can't really claim that Zapdos is the next Thundurus; Zapdos doesn't get Nasty Plot or Focus Blast. You can't really claim Sandslash is the next Excadrill; Sandslash has shittier stats in everything but defense, less immediate power, and no immunity to Toxic and Toxic Spikes. No Pokémon can be the exact same as another; Gliscor and Skarmory may have similar roles, but one can lay Spikes and use Whirlwind and another has a resistance to fighting and can use Earthquake. Similar Pokémon but with characteristics that make them fit more reliably to specific teams...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    While I like Excadrill out of the metagame, I never really had any trouble with it. Partly because only 1 of 10 battles I fight are sand teams and quite a few don't use Exca for some reason, but also partly because I had three checks to him on my team(BalloonHeatran, Conkledurr and Gliscor). Even then, none of them are all that good. BalloonTran rarely had his Balloon intact by the time they released Exca. Conk cannot switch-in too well and Gliscor is vulnerable to flinchhax. When it did show up, it may have taken down at least one of my pokes but never took down more than one member.
    At least from my perspective, Excadrill didn't deserve a ban. (unless everyone I played was a bad player of course)

    As for the metagame today, sand teams have taken three low blows this gen. First we got competing auto-weathers, then Garchomp and Excadrill get banned, the premier sand sweepers. So then, what shall replace Excadrill as the face of SandSweeper(barring Stoutland and Sandslash, since I doubt they'll make it out of UU)? Landorus seems like a safe bet. Cool speed tier. Sand Force and typing make it a huge threat. It's no where near as fast as Excadrill but much more powerful. Life Orb+Swords Dance+Sand Force give it about 1180 attack.
    To put that in perspective:
    StoneEdge vs. 252/252 Impish Skarmory 61.1-71.9
    Earthquake vs. 252/0 Careful Jirachi 177.2-208.9
    SE vs. 112/0 Modest Rotom-W 125.7-148
    SE vs. 252/80 Sassy Bronzong 43.5-51.2
    SE vs. 252/184 Impish Gliscor 65.5-76.8
    SE vs. 252/0 Adamant Dragonite 129-152.3
    EQ vs. 252/252 Relaxed Forrestress 57.6-67.8

    I'm just throwing some random calcs around but, apart from Bronzong, Landorus completely trashes the metagame. Everything that doesn't resist it is OHKOed or 2KOed by Earthquake(even Forretress, the highest defence in OU). The speed is the issue here though. 101 Speed is fast but Starmie, the musketeers and priority can still ruins it's day, especially Ice Shards from Mamoswine or worse: Scarfed Politoed's Rain-boosted Hydro Pump.
    So, Landorus. Whaddya think?
    Landorus is a pretty cool Pokémon that I've used a lot. I personally don't like the Swords Dance set because, like you said, it's fast but often not fast enough. Choice Scarf is a decent set, but Expert Belt is really nice since a lot of people assume Landorus they see to Choice Scarf, especially when they see it taking no Leftovers recovery / Life Orb damage. Choice Band is another set that hits insanely hard, and again, it can bluff a Choice Scarf (at least the first turn.) Substitute + Smack Down is something I've used so much that's its comedy appeal is lost. It's legitimately good though, it beats Skarmory and non-Scarf Rotom-W. Landorus is really the only boon Sand Stream has left, it doesn't fill Excadrill's role, but it's still something classy.

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    Has nothing to do with the tier...but chances are it will be tentative replacement (if it hasn't already been one already)
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    It's about time I say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinksOcarina View Post
    Has nothing to do with the tier...but chances are it will be tentative replacement (if it hasn't already been one already)
    Chances are it'll be bad, too.

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    With excadrill gone, in my opinion, Steelix with sturdy ability will become the more popular of the two ground/steels in the metagame. The three things it lacks when compared to excadrill, however, is the high base speed excadrill has, rapid spin, and last but not least, sand rush...

    In terms of metagame impact, however, you may think that sun teams will get more popular, until you find that the existence of tailwind gives rain teams a form of "pseudo-phyll" that gives the same benefit of chlorophyll: double speed, even to those who don't really have the actual ability itself. And that same speed boost gives all of the user's allies equal footing against chlorophyll users, if only for one less turn than the real chlorophyll, meaning sun teams not boosted by tailwind as well as sun can still be countered. So, until the time tailwind becomes a banned move, when and if it comes, a check to sun teams will still exist in OU, ensuring fair metagame all-around....
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregjammer View Post
    With excadrill gone, in my opinion, Steelix with sturdy ability will become the more popular of the two ground/steels in the metagame. The three things it lacks when compared to excadrill, however, is the high base speed excadrill has, rapid spin, and last but not least, sand rush...

    In terms of metagame impact, however, you may think that sun teams will get more popular, until you find that the existence of tailwind gives rain teams a form of "pseudo-phyll" that gives the same benefit of chlorophyll: double speed, even to those who don't really have the actual ability itself. And that same speed boost gives all of the user's allies equal footing against chlorophyll users, if only for one less turn than the real chlorophyll, meaning sun teams not boosted by tailwind as well as sun can still be countered. So, until the time tailwind becomes a banned move, when and if it comes, a check to sun teams will still exist in OU, ensuring fair metagame all-around....
    Steelix is RU and doesn't replace Excatrill in any way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jock View Post
    Steelix is RU and doesn't replace Excatrill in any way.
    Soaking damage and type coverage I think is what he was referring too. Although it can't compare via speed or attacking capabilities. Still, rise in usage would be nice for the old snake, at least in my opinion, but I doubt it will set foot in OU any time soon.

    And how would Landorus be bad, exactly? It would be the comparable power for sandstorm teams with Excadrill gone. The only thing it lacks is a good movepool so it will be pretty predictable at what it does, but what it does is hit hard and hit fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinksOcarina View Post
    Soaking damage and type coverage I think is what he was referring too. Although it can't compare via speed or attacking capabilities. Still, rise in usage would be nice for the old snake, at least in my opinion, but I doubt it will set foot in OU any time soon.
    Yeah, how to put this delicately...every Steel and Ground type in OU could all just die one day and I still don't think Steelix would make it into OU.

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