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Thread: Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

  1. #2726
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    given that the legal rights one is the only one that will realistically be addressed this century, it's as good as it's going to get
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Yet the legal rights one isn't a good one in the first place, so what can you do?
    Just because your parents "and many other couples you know" don't care about legal benefits doesn't change that the vast majority of couples do care about the legal benefits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Point still stands that I see no reason to consider these benefits anything more than trivial.
    The thing is, gay people not being able to get a piece of paper is a lesser problem than bullying, restrictions against adoption, etc. It's definitely a lesser problem. But I don't see how this means that it doesn't matter at all. Just because we can't prove to a satisfactory degree that the marriage distinction does matter, doesn't mean that we've confirmed it doesn't matter.

    And I still feel like the reason marriage matters is right in front of our face - why would people fight so hard over the sanctity of marriage, to protect their culture from homosexuality, if it wasn't valuable for gay people to satisfy this internalized culture of marriage-sanctity? It's not even particularly a matter of man-handling the culture of society or trying to force tolerance on people in some kind of tyrannical liberal manner, but having at least the governments that observe legal marriage certificates participate in this cultural discourse that is already partially there. And I don't think making marriage a part of government is a radical progressive idea. Separating marriage from government, in my mind, would be the new, unusual idea.

    Also, I'm not really familiar with the dangers of this more sinister fake progressivism, mainly because I don't see the slope in which giving marriage to gay couples results in couples that aren't married campaigning to get the same benefits. That's what a marriage, in the legal sense, is for, and the example is completely alien to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Well it's as much a perception thing as much as anything else, especially in the U.K. As I said earlier in the thread, the gay marriage issue is as much about a man picking a fight and trying to wrestle internal control back to his side of a political party than it is about gay marriage. When a man campaigns for a minor change more passionately than he does for the need to save and restore our economy, it baffles me. Freedom of speech, drug legislation, the NHS. These things matter. Gay people no longer being civil partners but being married couples doesn't.

    The gay marriage thing is also worth mentioning in another way, more tied to America, but applicable here too. It stems from the way in which gay marriage is used as a stick with which to beat others and further an agenda which moves much beyond gay marriage.

    When we hear advocates of gay marriage talking, the buzzword is "fairness", or something similar to that. This same shtick (not a typo) is then used to justify other policies which have little to nothing to do with gay rights. Tax rises? It's about "fairness". More government? We must insure "fairness". Attempts to shut down freedom of speech? It's "unfair" to demonise certain groups for having vile opinions. It's part of an "us and them" mentality which is used by the modern left to prevent any kind of worthwhile debate. Hence why an irrelevant issue like gay marriage is presented as some kind of major step forward for civil rights. Those who oppose it are painted as bigots. Fast forward to a debate on the economy. Said "bigot" discusses sensible economic proposals, but their "bigoted" views on something like gay marriage are held against them and used as a stick in order to ignore their economic points. Gay marriage is a perfect embodiment of how minor issues are used to divert from other failures.

    I'm pro gay-marriage, but I don't kid myself it's a big issue. Meanwhile, I resent the way that my opinion is used as a template for further "progressiveness".
    Fair point, but like I said, I feel like this is a matter of personal taste, and don't really see the point of throwing out the gay marriage issue because you don't support the side that supports it. In addition, I actually really agree with you on the problem of throwing the idea of bigotry around and demonizing people for their motives and beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    BTW, just so we're clear. What I'm replying to here is a man who criticises my opinions regularly when he has condoned mass murder on this very forum. Look at my sig for further details. A strange kind of moralist.
    Dude, I'm sorry. But you either don't get it or don't want to. I said that about Gadhaffi because I didn't want Libya to be destablized, it's citizens to be in danger, and become vulnerable to al Qaeda...not because I somehow supported Gadhaffi himself. Even if my logic didn't work out, the fact is I was not calling for mass murder.

    I very rarely stick to my guns in a debate on foreign matters anyway, which is why I said that I was 'deluded'. The fact is I'm a great big pacifist and it makes me sick to imagine anyone being killed, even a tyrant.
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 13th February 2013 at 9:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eBay Huckster View Post
    please, tell me more about how being blocked at literally every possible turn bar two from injecting any substantial government spending whatsoever into the economy was his fault again, i forgot what mental gymnastics you ran through last time
    Let me rephrase as this isn't an Obama thread.

    Taking away a debate on whose idea for the economy was better, the point is that the economy should have been the issue that dominated the election more than any other. Instead we got a Romney smear campaign.



    Calling something mental gymnastics doesn't make it so.

    i guess we should never address any issue that doesn't affect absolutely everyone (or enough of everyone to get classed as a Snorunt Conservationist-Approved Big Issue) then, since apparently the federal government is completely incapable of addressing ALL OF THESE SIMULTANEOUSLY.
    That's not my point though and your purposeful misrepresentation won't make it so.

    that's actually correct. they were about half self-identified moderates and about half self-identified liberals, with a very small proportion of self-identified conservatives. you're improving!
    No liberal voted for Obama because Obama isn't a liberal and neither are his supporters.

    and sort of repeating that second to last note, i wasn't aware that "gay issues" and "homosexuality and politics" were mutually exclusive terms from one another, given that gay issues are only issues because of the interactions between the latter. you'll have to show me your mental gymnastics routine again.
    Well of course they are. One is located exclusively within the realm of what is a "gay issue" and the other encompasses politics as well. They may overlap but they're separate things.

    Now, what forced me to have to point this out was that when I used the phrase "something like gay marriage", an individual (most likely purposefully) chose to interpret this as " gay marriage". This was wrong;. They then fell back onto the "oh but this is a gay issues" thread, which it is in part, but it is also a thread which encompasses politics. Gay marriage was a potential example related to wider political point. It was not the political point within itself.

    Again, red herring mentions of "mental gymnastics" don't change anything.

    drugs lol
    Right, so a "war" which costs the West billions if not hundreds of billions a year (of taxpayer money), criminalises thousands and thousands of non-violent citizens, facilitates gang warfare (and the murders that go with it) and traps thousands of people within a criminal lifestyle is less important than gay marriage? Ok. Good to know.

    civil liberty issues that actively affect a tiny minority of americans ps notice i am not saying they aren't issues lol
    They affect everyone in America (and other laws in other countries affect civil liberties as well). If the government has a right to wiretap as they see fit, that affects everyone.

    economic issues that aren't really issues ps this is specifically referencing things like the debt and tax rates on top brackets lol
    Debt isn't an issue? Ok then. That's good. Everyone can stop worrying then.
    Last edited by Snorunt conservationist; 14th February 2013 at 2:32 PM.

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    Snorunt conservationist is probably right. We should just ignore the issue of gay marriage until we have fixed every other problem in the world.

    This thread should be renamed to the Debt Debate.
    Jackpot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    Snorunt conservationist is probably right. We should just ignore the issue of gay marriage until we have fixed every other problem in the world.

    This thread should be renamed to the Debt Debate.
    I agree, we should also stop funding abortions because we can use the money to better fund our economy. Besides, abortion is a small trifling issue anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    Snorunt conservationist is probably right. We should just ignore the issue of gay marriage until we have fixed every other problem in the world.

    This thread should be renamed to the Debt Debate.
    How about on a national level we work on the debt issue and leave Gay Marriage to where it should be, on a state level? Especially since it has absolutely no chance of passing on a national level

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    I plan to give a more substantial post later, but I need to point out something:


    Quote Originally Posted by CSolarstorm View Post
    Also, I'm not really familiar with the dangers of this more sinister fake progressivism, mainly because I don't see the slope in which giving marriage to gay couples results in couples that aren't married campaigning to get the same benefits. That's what a marriage, in the legal sense, is for, and the example is completely alien to me.
    Snorunt conservationist was not arguing about any kind of "slope." In fact, what he said was not even remotely like "giving gay marriage to gay couples results" in something else. CSolarstorm, despite showing genuine evidence of being able to look past the popular stereotypes on this issue, you do tend to see people's arguments as slippery slope arguments when they aren't (or as changing the subject when they aren't). Just because he mentioned something else that could, in theory, "be next" doesn't mean he was saying that this was next, in some kind of "Oh, that's a horrifying possibility that we have to prevent" type of way. His point was perfectly clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    Snorunt conservationist is probably right. We should just ignore the issue of gay marriage until we have fixed every other problem in the world.

    This thread should be renamed to the Debt Debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    I agree, we should also stop funding abortions because we can use the money to better fund our economy. Besides, abortion is a small trifling issue anyway.

    ...

    Do you two really have to make this debate even more stuffed with straw men?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFightingPikachu View Post
    I plan to give a more substantial post later, but I need to point out something:



    Snorunt conservationist was not arguing about any kind of "slope." In fact, what he said was not even remotely like "giving gay marriage to gay couples results" in something else. CSolarstorm, despite showing genuine evidence of being able to look past the popular stereotypes on this issue, you do tend to see people's arguments as slippery slope arguments when they aren't (or as changing the subject when they aren't). Just because he mentioned something else that could, in theory, "be next" doesn't mean he was saying that this was next, in some kind of "Oh, that's a horrifying possibility that we have to prevent" type of way. His point was perfectly clear.





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    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    how is the debt not an issue? 90k per every working American is a lot of money...

    B
    Go to the barack thread and respond to my last post there on the national debt. Already took this on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    How about on a national level we work on the debt issue and leave Gay Marriage to where it should be, on a state level? Especially since it has absolutely no chance of passing on a national level
    That's what they used to say about civil rights.
    Jackpot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    That's what they used to say about civil rights.
    Yeah and when we have Gay Marchers having fire hoses turned on them, beaten, lynched, and basically mob action there may be more push toward it. Right now though it just is not that big of a deal for people.

    I mean I look at these polls and the ones that include Gay Marriage seem to get around 1 to 4% in terms of national interest, that just shows me that people do not really care right now.

    http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm
    Last edited by BigLutz; 14th February 2013 at 6:54 AM.

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    yes, those samples of 0.0005% of the american population are surely strong indicators

    just because "most people don't care" doesn't make it a non-issue. i'm sure in the 1930s not many people would have cared about black people getting equal rights either, but that doesn't mean **** when they do deserve the same human rights as every straight, cis, white, middle class man
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    Quote Originally Posted by moot View Post
    yes, those samples of 0.0005% of the american population are surely strong indicators
    That is always the poor excuse when a poll doesn't turn out how people like. The fact is these are respected companies that work the numbers to try and get a respectable snap shot of America. If you have a poll on the same level as Pew and CNN that shows something different, feel free to post it.

    Quote Originally Posted by moot View Post
    just because "most people don't care" doesn't make it a non-issue. i'm sure in the 1930s not many people would have cared about black people getting equal rights either, but that doesn't mean **** when they do deserve the same human rights as every straight, cis, white, middle class man
    It makes it a non issue in the realm that there is no rush to provide political pressure to pass a bill that will get it through the House and Senate. We can go round and round about if Gay Marriage is equal to how Blacks were treated in the 1930s ( Personally I think that is a terrible example ), but at the end of the day, the political pressure is just not there, that is just a fact.
    Last edited by BigLutz; 14th February 2013 at 7:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    That is always the poor excuse when a poll doesn't turn out how people like. The fact is these are respected companies that work the numbers to try and get a respectable snap shot of America. If you have a poll with the same level that shows something different, feel free to post it.
    it is actually impossible to judge anything from such a small sample size, regardless of how varied they try to make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    It makes it a non issue in the realm that there is no rush to provide political pressure to pass a bill that will get it through the House and Senate. We can go round and round about if Gay Marriage is equal to how Blacks were treated in the 1930s ( Personally I think that is a terrible example ), but at the end of the day, the political pressure is just not there, that is just a fact.
    there's no political pressure because the groups that are passionate about it are such a minority. somewhere between what, 5-10% of the population identifies as LGBT, so the level of politically active LGBT lobbyists is going to be tiny.
    of course it's not going to be a PRESSING ISSUE when less than 5% of the population is actively supporting it. they still deserve the rights, whether or not most people care about it shouldn't matter.

    to be honest, it SHOULD be a non-issue and should just be allowed, the people who are so opposed to it are the ones kicking up a big fuss over something which doesn't affect them at all it's just so dumb why does anyone give a crap
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    Quote Originally Posted by moot View Post
    it is actually impossible to judge anything from such a small sample size, regardless of how varied they try to make it.
    Again if you have something that disproves it....

    But lets go at this from a different angle. Lets say the polls are wrong, politicians still live by polls and with no evidence to show that Americans see it as a top issue, then why is a Politician going to invest time into a issue that 50% of Americans oppose, that is going to cost a extreme amount of time and political capital in, and which has little chance of passing? Mind you the last time politicians did this, it was Obamacare, and the Democrats are still paying for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by moot View Post
    there's no political pressure because the groups that are passionate about it are such a minority. somewhere between what, 5-10% of the population identifies as LGBT, so the level of politically active LGBT lobbyists is going to be tiny.
    of course it's not going to be a PRESSING ISSUE when less than 5% of the population is actively supporting it. they still deserve the rights, whether or not most people care about it shouldn't matter.

    to be honest, it SHOULD be a non-issue and should just be allowed, the people who are so opposed to it are the ones kicking up a big fuss over something which doesn't affect them at all it's just so dumb why does anyone give a crap
    Again another cop out, just because a person cannot relate does not make something any less a pressing issue, gay marriage has passed in several states now by vote, and gay marriage is seen as something that people support by over 50 percent of the country for the first time ever. Again people do not need to be gay to relate, but that does not mean they are going to see it as the number one issue facing this nation. Because lets face it, when you have millions upon millions out of work, the economy on the edge of declining, and the debt reaching 100% of GDP, the whole marriage thing seems kind of... well small.
    Last edited by BigLutz; 14th February 2013 at 6:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post
    Agree with you on most of the post but this one. The debt really isn't an issue and you can see my post in the other thread for that reasoning.
    Is that the one where you said America owes Brazil 500 billion and Brazil owes America 800 billion (when their debt is c. 450 billion)?

    Oh yeah, that post.

    Or the other one where you point out just how much debt America is in? Really helped your argument. Of course, that isn't to mention the trillion dollar deficit at the heart of government.

    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    Snorunt conservationist is probably right. We should just ignore the issue of gay marriage until we have fixed every other problem in the world.

    This thread should be renamed to the Debt Debate.
    Not my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    I agree, we should also stop funding abortions because we can use the money to better fund our economy. Besides, abortion is a small trifling issue anyway.
    Damn straight. **** should people who are vehemently opposed to abortion fund taxpayer initiatives to have abortions carried out?

    I'm pro-abortion btw. Very much so.

    Quote Originally Posted by moot View Post
    yes, those samples of 0.0005% of the american population are surely strong indicators

    just because "most people don't care" doesn't make it a non-issue. i'm sure in the 1930s not many people would have cared about black people getting equal rights either, but that doesn't mean **** when they do deserve the same human rights as every straight, cis, white, middle class man
    Such an awful comparison.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/br...-marriage-meh/

    A decent article that further highlights just how antipathetic most people are towards this non-entity.

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    It should be painfully obvious that talk about the US's debt does not belong in this thread. Stay on-topic, people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    It should be painfully obvious that talk about the US's debt does not belong in this thread. Stay on-topic, people.

    ~Psychic
    They were just using the debt as a red herring. Just because marriage equality isn't the most important thing ever doesn't make it not important.
    Jackpot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFightingPikachu View Post
    Snorunt conservationist was not arguing about any kind of "slope." In fact, what he said was not even remotely like "giving gay marriage to gay couples results" in something else. CSolarstorm, despite showing genuine evidence of being able to look past the popular stereotypes on this issue, you do tend to see people's arguments as slippery slope arguments when they aren't (or as changing the subject when they aren't). Just because he mentioned something else that could, in theory, "be next" doesn't mean he was saying that this was next, in some kind of "Oh, that's a horrifying possibility that we have to prevent" type of way. His point was perfectly clear.
    I was using the term 'slope' as shorthand to refer to the progression of events, because I gathered from his description of 'fake progressivism that he was suggesting that was the kind of ridiculousness that too much unnecessary progressivism would make people demand, that eventually unmarried couples would claim oppression as their own group and campaign for the same benefits. But I see what you mean; he didn't actually say that, he only compared it to his opinion of the gay marriage issue; but the comparison is still absurd. Why shouldn't non-married couples get the same benefits married couples do? Because that's just called getting married, and they do it all the time. There's not much 'unfairness' there. It's not comparable to the problem gay couples face in not being able to get married.

    Strawmen are par for the course in this debate, because people have trouble understanding each other and don't always make a big effort to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    They were just using the debt as a red herring. Just because marriage equality isn't the most important thing ever doesn't make it not important.
    It'd be a hell of a lot less important if people stopped getting their heterosexual panties in a twist over the idea of gays marrying, at that. I guarantee you, if it were legalized, and given ten years or so, it would become a non-issue to the point that only the diehards would still be pitching a fit over it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserin View Post
    It'd be a hell of a lot less important if people stopped getting their heterosexual panties in a twist over the idea of gays marrying, at that. I guarantee you, if it were legalized, and given ten years or so, it would become a non-issue to the point that only the diehards would still be pitching a fit over it.
    True, same sex marriage has been legal here for almost 12 years here now. It is well normal now. Ofcourse there are still small groups of people who are against it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    True, same sex marriage has been legal here for almost 12 years here now. It is well normal now. Ofcourse there are still small groups of people who are against it.
    I don't doubt there will always be people against it for a long time to come; there are still people against racial equality, or rights for women, even though the United States and many other European countries have since smoothed out all of the major legal biases against anyone who wasn't white or male a long time ago. But I'd put money on the idea that if it were legalized, God would not rain fiery wrath down on the planet for it, and tension would flatten out a hell of a lot more if there were no legal basis to discriminate against anyone not heterosexual.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserin View Post
    I don't doubt there will always be people against it for a long time to come; there are still people against racial equality, or rights for women, even though the United States and many other European countries have since smoothed out all of the major legal biases against anyone who wasn't white or male a long time ago. But I'd put money on the idea that if it were legalized, God would not rain fiery wrath down on the planet for it, and tension would flatten out a hell of a lot more if there were no legal basis to discriminate against anyone not heterosexual.
    I honestly believe there will come a time when we start discriminating against ignorance. That would be good.

    Also, even though I am against gay marriage (as seen throughout the thread), I feel it should be noted that Christians, and other groups, shouldn't discriminate based on religion, tradition etc. I remember readin a bible verse to live in the world and not be of it. That means that as a Christian, we should realize that our values won't always match up with the values of society. Does that mean someone has to embrace it? No. But it does mean we need to be respectful.

    As for the traditional aspect, tradition will always change between groups. There will always be those clingy to old ways, but I think everything will go for the best.

    Interesting thought though: if gay marriage does become legal in the majority of the united states, after a while, those who oppose it would be defined as the liberals.

  25. #2750

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    I honestly don't have a problem with Gay marriage. I think that no harm is committed to the couple because of a gay couple and it is unfair that we are holding them back

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