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Thread: Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    Basic human rights as defined by who, "god" or the "founding fathers"? You probably mean liberal agitators that want to led people on with frivolous pet agendas.
    Do gays just NEED to have legal marriage or else they would all die?
    Do straight people? We could carry along that line and just abolish marriage altogether...

    Funny how pragmatism doesn't fit into ethics.

    I'm sure there are many people out there that want to be able to marry their cats, siblings, and imaginary characters, but it's not up to society to accommodate everyone.
    Difference is, you're supposed to marry something that can reciprocate your feelings. Incest is a slightly different matter, which requires a different explanation (I remember a massive thread on it about a year back), but for the most part, marrying something that isn't a human denies the sort of bond that marriage defines.
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    Am I the only one wondering why he changed "pets" to "cats"?

    That's also the slippery slope fallacy, which is similar to equating homosexuality with paedophillia.
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    lol, xD the thread need a name change. The Gay/Lesbian/Bear Alliance Club
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    Every discussion here ends up at either bears or musical theatre. What is this, the gay club?!


    Oh wait...

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    Quote Originally Posted by meteor64 View Post
    Do straight people? We could carry along that line and just abolish marriage altogether...

    Funny how pragmatism doesn't fit into ethics.
    Funny how straight people have been marrying in their own way for thousands of years, they didn't need the consensus of gays on that.

    Difference is, you're supposed to marry something that can reciprocate your feelings. Incest is a slightly different matter, which requires a different explanation (I remember a massive thread on it about a year back), but for the most part, marrying something that isn't a human denies the sort of bond that marriage defines.
    The difference is subjective, what you feel is not the same others feel and might understand a "bond" in a different way.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphapupQuicksilver View Post
    Am I the only one wondering why he changed "pets" to "cats"?

    That's also the slippery slope fallacy, which is similar to equating homosexuality with paedophillia.
    Then stop equating gay unions to heterosexual marriage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    Funny how straight people have been marrying in their own way for thousands of years, they didn't need the consensus of gays on that.
    But gays need the consensus of heterosexuals to get married...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    The difference is subjective, what you feel is not the same others feel and might understand a "bond" in a different way.
    Okay, how's this for a response: Informed consent. Everybody who tries this ******** slippery slope argument needs to learn that definition pronto. Get that cat or imaginary friend to sign a marriage contract and fully understand what it means, then maybe we can talk.

    As for incest, the problem there is the possibility of having children who have a higher incidence of physical and mental conditions due to genetic material being too similar. Does that problem exist if homosexuals get married?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    Then stop equating gay unions to heterosexual marriage.
    Oh, yeah, you're right, a union of two loving adults giving informed consent to be with each other is totally different from... a union of two loving adults giving informed consent to be with each other. Bulletproof argument.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    Funny how straight people have been marrying in their own way for thousands of years, they didn't need the consensus of gays on that.
    Well, I mean just look at the amount of gays history presents us with, it was such an acknowledged thing back then!

    /sarcasm


    The difference is subjective, what you feel is not the same others feel and might understand a "bond" in a different way.
    The bond of marriage is a two way thing, and I'm pretty sure a cat or a chinchilla or a pelican cannot reciprocate a persons affection to an equal degree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by henryJSB View Post
    i don't care. you can disagree with me, but anyone who thinks homosexuality is wrong is an extremely ignorant human being and pretty much scum in my book.
    I am gay, and I disagree with that. I don't understand the mentality that finds homosexuality is abominable, but I wouldn't go as far as calling every person who finds it wrong scum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    People who are obsessed with others needing to suck up to homosexuals are even worse, imo.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    Basic human rights as defined by who, "god" or the "founding fathers"? You probably mean liberal agitators that want to lead people on with frivolous pet agendas.
    Do gays just NEED to have legal marriage or else they would all die?
    It's about equality, and plus there are legal benefits of marriage. When you're denied something for no reason other than discrimination, you're going to want to obtain your rights.

    I'm sure there are many people out there that want to be able to marry their cats, siblings, and imaginary characters, but it's not up to society to accommodate everyone.
    Except there are legitimate reasons against that. Cats can't consent, siblings bring problems with sex, and imaginary characters are, well, imaginary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryJSB View Post
    congratulations, i'm also a gay rights activist. i'll call you the MLK and me and the malcolm x and leave our differing opinions on how to handle prejudiced people at that.
    Oh. I have to say, I respect someone who uses the difference between MLK and Malcolm X to describe how people deal with the predjudiced. Still, I don't think the majority of what the naked eye sees as 'prejudice' is actually anything evil, just a lack of communiation and information. Just being on this forum as long as I have has shown me that respectful communication and listening usually gets more done.

    Tishub probably changed it to 'cats' to reflect the stereotype that people who have cats are always obsessed with them.

    @Tishub - It's not up to society to accomodate everyone, but in the same line of reasoning, it's a waste of our attention and energy to stop society from accomodating itself.

    EDIT: Remember slippery slope isn't always a fallacy, and "Argument from Precedent" is the FIRST thing I wrote on the OP, and it applies very much to discussing where you draw the line on what kind of marriage we should legalize between stuff like beastiality to pedophilia and then same sex marriage.
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 19th November 2011 at 9:36 PM.

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  8. #258

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    i am genuinely shocked at some of the comments in this thread. i'm a new member, i see a lot of you people have been here for a while. how on earth do you deal with this without going insane?

    there is so much wrong with what people have said here i don't know where to begin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    I'm sure there are many people out there that want to be able to marry their cats, siblings, and imaginary characters, but it's not up to society to accommodate everyone.
    Yeah, a cat as far as we know doesn't understand and can't consent to a marriage. Two homosexual humans on the other hand can.

    As for siblings, a bit iffy yes, but much like the homosexual marriage, if they are two adults who agree to said marriage, then what's the problem.

    The imaginary character one's a non issue since said person doesn't even exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryJSB View Post
    i am genuinely shocked at some of the comments in this thread. i'm a new member, i see a lot of you people have been here for a while. how on earth do you deal with this without going insane?

    there is so much wrong with what people have said here i don't know where to begin.
    The point of a debate forum is not to bash and dispise everyone disagrees with you, but to argue with eachother on a respectable level. Secondly, not everyone who is against gay marriage is scum/w.e. insult you have for them. If you are talking about people who murder, then yes you are right. However not everyone does, especialy not in the 'western' countries. They are just misinformed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    The point of a debate forum is not to bash and dispise everyone disagrees with you, but to argue with eachother on a respectable level.
    Yeah, henry is in the wrong for how he worded his comment, but the fact of the matter is that there has been no solid argument against homosexuality yet. Instead we get:

    1. People who oppose it blindly simply because of religious beliefs or on some forums I've been on they hate gays simply because their parents are homophobic. Any opinion had by a person should be a genuine belief that said person should come up with on their own.

    2. People who compare homosexual marriages to rape, murder or marriage between a person and a cat/dog. The comparison fails because the marriage between two homosexuals is done with both parties mutally agreeing to said marriage. A cat and a dog can't do such. When you murder or rape someone, it tends to be against the victim's will, so again it isn't comparable.


    Thing is that this isn't a discussion on a trivial subject like "What's your favorite movie, ice cream or pizza topping?"

    Discussion on homosexual marriages and whether to permit them might not be the most important thing, but it's still important and far from trivial. As such if you're going to oppose it, it's not enough to say I don't like it.

    You need to have an argument that is so solid that a supporter of said marriage can't produce a counterargument to it. That means:

    1. No hypocritical arguments like "It's unnatural".
    2. Make sure the comparisons hold up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro. View Post
    I don't like gay people. Sorry if that offends anyone but it's just my opinion.
    This is what I'm talking about. What do you have against them?

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    It's about the fundamental definition of things. You would not be correct in calling your mommy your "daddy" or say that a 30 year old is too young, while a 15 y.o. is too old. Marriage as it is innately defined means a union between a man and woman and all the attributes that might come with the natural difference between biological genders.

    There are few exceptions: if the person changes their sex or when there are multiple husbands and wives. We can obviously say those are tiny and remote examples and do not affect the main point.

    On the other hand, having two individuals who are wholly male and call their union officially a marriage is a perversion of the natural definition. It would become something else and you can naturally call it a same-gender union or some other label.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    It's about the fundamental definition of things. You would not be correct in calling your mommy your "daddy" or say that a 30 year old is too young, while a 15 y.o. is too old. Marriage as it is innately defined means a union between a man and woman and all the attributes that might come with the natural difference between biological genders.

    There are few exceptions: if the person changes their sex or when there are multiple husbands and wives. We can obviously say those are tiny and remote examples and do not affect the main point.

    On the other hand, having two individuals who are wholly male and call their union officially a marriage is a perversion of the natural definition. It would become something else and you can naturally call it a same-gender union or some other label.
    So in other words it's simply a matter of preserving status quo? And really words over time do get more definitions. Gay use to simply be another word for happy. F*g was a term for cigarettes and molest was simply another word for bothering/disturbing.

    Give me a reason as to why homosexual marriages are wrong on the same level as murder, rape and theft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bro. View Post
    I just find it.... strange. Hot Lesbins are awesome though.
    Well, some people find it strange that individuals over the age of 12 like a series meant for kids. Does that mean our interest in Pokemon is wrong?
    Last edited by Antiyonder; 19th November 2011 at 10:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiyonder View Post
    So in other words it's simply a matter of preserving status quo? And really words over time do get more definitions. Gay use to simply be another word for happy. F*g was a term for cigarettes and molest was simply another word for bothering/disturbing.



    Well, some people find it strange that individuals over the age of 12 like a series meant for kids. Does that mean our interest in Pokemon is wrong?

    I'm sorry, give me a reason as to why homosexual marriages are wrong on the same level as murder, rape and theft.
    Marriage in itself in nothing, it's really what people make of it. That's my view.

    And it's not really about the status quo, unless you believe that being against some perceived natural dominance is "kewl". Then go ahead wear a skirt, and suck on large lollipops, just don't ask others to hail you for being different or asking for privileges based on that.

    If homosexual want to have a union, that is fine and they could also call it marriage colloquially. However, officially, and doing things by the book, a marriage is what you call the union between man and woman. In many instances the usage of b-word has becoming a synonym for females, yet nobody is saying that b-word has the same fundamental meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    There are few exceptions: if the person changes their sex or when there are multiple husbands and wives. We can obviously say those are tiny and remote examples and do not affect the main point.
    So Polygamy is allowed but not gay marriage?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    On the other hand, having two individuals who are wholly male and call their union officially a marriage is a perversion of the natural definition. It would become something else and you can naturally call it a same-gender union or some other label.
    So let's call marriage between a man and a woman an opposite-gender union.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AudinoGlitch View Post
    So let's call marriage between a man and a woman an opposite-gender union.
    That's fine as well, but the word marriage already exists for that. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    The point of a debate forum is not to bash and dispise everyone disagrees with you, but to argue with eachother on a respectable level. Secondly, not everyone who is against gay marriage is scum/w.e. insult you have for them. If you are talking about people who murder, then yes you are right. However not everyone does, especialy not in the 'western' countries. They are just misinformed.
    people aren't just opposed to homosexual marriage in this thread, they are opposed to homosexuality in general. i don't think i've even once mentioned marriage in this thread, just the idea that people think homosexuality is wrong is just so messed up on so many different levels.

    i've given people who are 'opposed' to homosexuality all the time in the world. i'm tired of it. no one has ever made a valid point against homosexuality and no one ever will, because there is no legitimate argument against being a homosexual human being. to be against homosexuality is to be against humanity in general, and i have no time for polite manners when dealing with people like that.

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    What I don't understand is why it has to be made such a big deal.... Ironically, most gay people are making it so they're defined by being gay, which is what offends most people. Its another way of saying sex is what makes us human, which is only a small sliver of what really makes us human. I have a friend who struggles in this area, and this is what he told me. The original institution of marriage was designed to keep mothers and fathers together to raise a family correctly. While that rarely happens anyway, its still much harder then to just "Leave". Since gay people cannot have children (adoption is a different story, but the child does not have DNA from the them, so its different) there is no reason for marriage other then "Ceremony" and "Joining". Marriage has been changed in our society to the point where its just for declaring "Love" for another person. Problem is, where do the words "love" and "partner" differentiate? Thats a whole other subject though..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro. View Post
    Are you saying the bible is wrong on so many different levels?
    OH NO. HOW DARE HE NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE.

    Yes, he is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro. View Post
    Are you saying the bible is wrong on so many different levels?
    Well it is. Its also right on a fair few too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro. View Post
    Yes .
    Well, then you're just as wrong as the rest of us, so your complaint of homosexuals is a case of pot calling the kettle black.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tisub Lord of Kummi View Post
    And it's not really about the status quo, unless you believe that being against some perceived natural dominance is "kewl". Then go ahead wear a skirt, and suck on large lollipops, just don't ask others to hail you for being different or asking for privileges based on that.
    The problem with your argument is that you assume that gay people want to marry for the sake of going against the status quo.

    And for that matter, I and everyone else here freely admit to enjoying video games and a cartoon made for kids. It's not because we want to make some statement or stick it to the man. It's because we enjoy them.

    If homosexual want to have a union, that is fine and they could also call it marriage colloquially. However, officially, and doing things by the book, a marriage is what you call the union between man and woman. In many instances the usage of b-word has becoming a synonym for females, yet nobody is saying that b-word has the same fundamental meaning.
    Which again is a flimsy reason to turn down homosexual marriage. Lets look on some other things that society frowns on and why we deem them wrong:

    1. Theft- You're taking something that doesn't belong to you against someone else's consent. And in some case, if it's a theft of money then you put the person in a position where they can't support themselves or their families.

    2. Murder- Taking someone's life without their consent. Not to mention that friends and families of the victim are affected in an emotional sense.

    3. Rape- Person forces themselves sexually against another, thus without the other person's consent.

    Can't say the same for a homosexual marriage.


    Quote Originally Posted by henryJSB View Post
    i've given people who are 'opposed' to homosexuality all the time in the world. i'm tired of it. no one has ever made a valid point against homosexuality and no one ever will, because there is no legitimate argument against being a homosexual human being. to be against homosexuality is to be against humanity in general, and i have no time for polite manners when dealing with people like that.
    While I do think civility is still the best course of action, this sums the problem up well. People who oppose homosexuality don't even have a reason to be against them other than being conformists. Conformists who deep down know they are wrong and make poor excuses to vindicate themselves.


    And again, this isn't like saying I hate strawberry ice cream or I hate western films. This is a topic that needs solid arguments before supporters can at least be more understanding. Oh and:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bro. View Post
    Are you saying the bible is wrong on so many different levels?
    So in other words, you follow the bible no matter what? You don't question what you read in it?

    Going with rape, murder and theft, I have reasons which I listed above why I find them wrong. I came to that conclusion before reading about it in the bible.

    Sorry, but blindly following someone doesn't make for a productive debate.
    Last edited by Antiyonder; 19th November 2011 at 11:13 PM.

  23. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragontamer1011 View Post
    What I don't understand is why it has to be made such a big deal.... Ironically, most gay people are making it so they're defined by being gay, which is what offends most people. Its another way of saying sex is what makes us human, which is only a small sliver of what really makes us human. I have a friend who struggles in this area, and this is what he told me. The original institution of marriage was designed to keep mothers and fathers together to raise a family correctly. While that rarely happens anyway, its still much harder then to just "Leave". Since gay people cannot have children (adoption is a different story, but the child does not have DNA from the them, so its different) there is no reason for marriage other then "Ceremony" and "Joining". Marriage has been changed in our society to the point where its just for declaring "Love" for another person. Problem is, where do the words "love" and "partner" differentiate? Thats a whole other subject though..
    the reason it's seen to be a 'big deal' is exactly because of some of the comments and attitudes in this thread. it's a big deal as long as idiots are still comparing homosexuality to peadophillia, beastiality etc. so on and so forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bro.
    Are you saying the bible is wrong on so many different levels
    absolutely

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryJSB View Post
    the reason it's seen to be a 'big deal' is exactly because of some of the comments and attitudes in this thread. it's a big deal as long as idiots are still comparing homosexuality to peadophillia, beastiality etc. so on and so forth.
    Thats pretty far off basis. Those are people hurting or committing an act against another person, homosexuality is consensual between the involved people.
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    no i'm not mad. i know plenty of christians who aren't opposed to homosexuality.

    i respect your beliefs. doesn't change the fact i disagree with them though.

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