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Thread: Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

  1. #3626
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    As much as the next guy, I would like to see equality, and as clear as it might be to everyone here, I most definitely despise the religious touting their bible as a justification for detestable opinions. That said, I don't think this man from some reality TV show was in the wrong. Nobody should care if he thinks being homosexual is bad or immoral, because he has said he treats them the same as any other person.

    Further, I don't think he should have been suspended. It's great for the network, sure, because it drums up controversy and increases viewership and ratings, but on moral principal, he's not doing harm to anyone. People can hold detestable, illogical opinions, even advocate for them, as long as they try to prove their beliefs rationally, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Making a fuss over someone's silly, religion-based, archaic idiocy gives them credit for having an idea worthwhile of people's time, and it shouldn't be. Whether it be bad or good, it's reality TV. They should have seen this coming. They pray after every show. It's a funny program. Let him be, he's done nothing that should castigate him from his fellows and his show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    No, because she did NOT say any bigoted remarks towards any minority group tied to her beliefs in a public settings. There's a big difference.

    And "family values"? A bunch of smelly hillbillies have "family values"?

    Right. Jeb Clampet did, Dick Tracy's friends B.O. Plenty and Gravel Gertie did, but in reality, very few guys like that do.

    Taking a bath once in a while might help them towards that end.
    I'm rather amused by the fact that you complain about Robertson's "bigoted" remarks and then turn around and make bigoted remarks of your own. Quotes for you to consider. Physican, heal thyself. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Someone having an opinion you disagree with does not mean that they lack family values.
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  3. #3628
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federation View Post
    but on moral principal, he's not doing harm to anyone.

    -Suicide is the leading cause of death among Gay and Lesbian youth nationally.
    -30% of Gay youth attempt suicide near the age of 15.
    -Gays and Lesbians are two to six times more likely to suicide than Heterosexuals.
    -Almost half of the Gay and Lesbian teens state they have attempted suicide more than once.
    -It has been conservatively estimated the 1,500 Gay and Lesbian youth commit suicide every year.


    It is generally estimated that the LGBTQ community represents about 10% of the population. The number of LGBTQ youth who commit suicide is STAGGERING. Now if we're going to talk about MORAL PRINCIPLE, what about the morality of propagating lies and being part of the TOXIC environment that leaves many young kids feeling like the only answer is to kill themselves? These "opinions" don't happen in a vacuum, they have societal repercussions, ESPECIALLY when you're a media figure (and I use the term loosely). Saying that "He has the right to express his opinion" in this case is the equivalent of saying "He has the right to create an unsafe space for gay people", and let's be realistic, most space is already unsafe for the LGBTQ community.

  4. #3629
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federation View Post
    As much as the next guy, I would like to see equality, and as clear as it might be to everyone here, I most definitely despise the religious touting their bible as a justification for detestable opinions. That said, I don't think this man from some reality TV show was in the wrong. Nobody should care if he thinks being homosexual is bad or immoral, because he has said he treats them the same as any other person.

    Further, I don't think he should have been suspended. It's great for the network, sure, because it drums up controversy and increases viewership and ratings, but on moral principal, he's not doing harm to anyone. People can hold detestable, illogical opinions, even advocate for them, as long as they try to prove their beliefs rationally, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Making a fuss over someone's silly, religion-based, archaic idiocy gives them credit for having an idea worthwhile of people's time, and it shouldn't be. Whether it be bad or good, it's reality TV. They should have seen this coming. They pray after every show. It's a funny program. Let him be, he's done nothing that should castigate him from his fellows and his show.
    I'm not surprised by what happened, I doubt anyone was surprised, but A&E should have handled it differently. I've never actually watched the show because I knew exactly what their opinion on the matter would be, but that's not the only reason, so I can't really make too much of a comment on the situation.

    We can't just shut down everyone with an outdated point-of-view who speaks their mind just because you don't like it, that's completely undermining free speech and I for one refuse to accept that.

    @blazekickblaziken

    The plight of our lgbt youth is an issue that we must deal with carefully and quickly. I don't know if we can say that the opinions of one really make a difference, but I do agree that there is a huge problem with individuals adding to the stigma that homosexuality is wrong, so I don't know maybe it does. It's a very slippery slope when trying to find a way to end the bigotry while preserving the unalienable rights of individuals. Hopefully we can bring an end to these archaic sensibilities while preserving the rights for all and finally coexist in this world.
    Last edited by Dreamy; 21st December 2013 at 4:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    I'm rather amused by the fact that you complain about Robertson's "bigoted" remarks and then turn around and make bigoted remarks of your own. Quotes for you to consider. Physican, heal thyself. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Someone having an opinion you disagree with does not mean that they lack family values.
    Yup, I admit it. I'm intolerant. There are groups of people that I dislike. Despise, even.

    Who am I intolerant towards? I dislike people who dislike minorities. I dislike rich people who dislike the poor. I dislike religious people who dislike non-believers. I dislike people who believe women should make less than men. I dislike straight people who dislike gays. And while "hate" is a strong word, I save it for any in those categories willing to do harm to others, either physical or mental, to express their ideals.

    Who am I intolerant towards?

    Intolerant people.


    Oh, and by the way, the most surprising thing about Phil's suspension, IMOHO, is the fact that anyone found it surprising.

    Sorry, i didnt know that soap and water changed your views on gays.
    I try to stay away from guys who stink.
    Last edited by Maedar; 21st December 2013 at 4:09 PM.

  6. #3631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    Yup, I admit it. I'm intolerant. There are groups of people that I dislike. Despise, even.

    Who am I intolerant towards? I dislike people who dislike minorities. I dislike rich people who dislike the poor. I dislike religious people who dislike non-believers. I dislike people who believe women should make less than men. I dislike straight people who dislike gays. And while "hate" is a strong word, I save it for any in those categories willing to do harm to others, either physical or mental, to express their ideals.

    Who am I intolerant towards?

    Intolerant people.


    Oh, and by the way, the most surprising thing about Phil's suspension, IMOHO, is the fact that anyone found it surprising.
    Exactly, once people start causing actual harm to others, be it physical or mental or what have you, then there is a time for repercussion.

  7. #3632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    Yup, I admit it. I'm intolerant. There are groups of people that I dislike. Despise, even.
    Admitting that you have a problem is the first step towards getting help.
    Who am I intolerant towards? I dislike people who dislike minorities. I dislike rich people who dislike the poor. I dislike religious people who dislike non-believers. I dislike people who believe women should make less than men. I dislike straight people who dislike gays.
    Disliking people is perfectly legal. Actually harming people is not.

    And while "hate" is a strong word, I save it for any in those categories willing to do harm to others, either physical or mental, to express their ideals.

    Who am I intolerant towards?

    Intolerant people.
    Must be pretty hard to look in the mirror.

    Oh, and by the way, the most surprising thing about Phil's suspension, IMOHO, is the fact that anyone found it surprising.

    I try to stay away from guys who stink.
    A lot of people figured that at some point, the anti Christian people would pitch a fit over something.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarkElf View Post
    Exactly, once people start causing actual harm to others, be it physical or mental or what have you, then there is a time for repercussion.
    Problem with this line of reasoning is that I can claim "mental harm" from Maeder's comments and then demand his banning. Who defines the "mental harm"?
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  8. #3633
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkElf View Post
    We can't just shut down everyone with an outdated point-of-view who speaks their mind just because you don't like it, that's completely undermining free speech and I for one refuse to accept that.
    No, no it's not. That's not how freedom of speech works.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism or freedom from social repercussions. Freedom of speech means that you are (ALMOST) free of *legal* repercussions.

    The plight of our lgbt youth is an issue that we must deal with carefully and quickly. I don't know if we can say that the opinions of one really make a difference, but I do agree that there is a huge problem with individuals adding to the stigma that homosexuality is wrong, so I don't know maybe it does. It's a very slippery slope when trying to find a way to end the bigotry while preserving the unalienable rights of individuals. Hopefully we can bring an end to these archaic sensibilities while preserving the rights for all and finally coexist in this world.
    Ok here's the thing, a group is formed of INDIVIDUALS. Saying that "Well, he's just one person" ignores the fact that EVERYONE is just one person. Society as a whole gathering together and saying "Stop spouting racist/sexist/homophobic lies" is not infringing on anyone's right to freedom of speech, it's society expressing that same right.

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Problem with this line of reasoning is that I can claim "mental harm" from Maeder's comments and then demand his banning. Who defines the "mental harm"?
    Well we seem to have a definition of of physical harm that prevents me from suing someone who taps my shoulder, so I'm pretty sure we can manage to work out a definition of mental harm. If there isn't one already.
    Last edited by Blazekickblaziken; 21st December 2013 at 5:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazekickblaziken View Post
    1) How do you know that the majority of gay men are stereotypical? The reality of the situation is that gay is not visually recognizable like a race. You might think that the majority of gay men are stereotypical, but it could very well just be that those are the only ones you are aware of.

    2)That being said, equality is given, not because the majority of the group "earns" it, but because they are human beings and FUNDAMENTALLY equal.

    3) The reality of the situation is you are being just as judgmental against them as you claim they are being against each other. So do you not deserve equality either?
    You do not understanding the point I am trying to make. As a gay individual, I feel isolated in my very own community and sad as that is, it is very common. The gay community has a tendency to be very judgmental with others and many of them expect to be as equals but yet those same exact people are critical of others due to some sort of personality or appearance (such as femininity or not having a "gym" physique"). If you feel that I am being judgmental then so be it, but plenty of gay men need to learn to respect each other because in reality we are all looking for the same thing, equality and acceptance, I just feel that theres so many gay men who need to learn about acceptance within their own community before they think about acceptance on others.

  10. #3635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazekickblaziken View Post
    Well we seem to have a definition of of physical harm that prevents me from suing someone who taps my shoulder, so I'm pretty sure we can manage to work out a definition of mental harm. If there isn't one already.
    Expressing an opinion is the equivalent of taping someone on the shoulder.
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  11. #3636
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Expressing an opinion is the equivalent of taping someone on the shoulder.
    This opinion in specific? No. Describing sin as “Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men. Don’t be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers—they won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t deceive yourself. It’s not right.” is not a tap on the shoulder, it's a punch in the face.

    But you know, I have this horrible habit of holding people accountable for their actions.



    Quote Originally Posted by mitsuhoney View Post
    You do not understanding the point I am trying to make. As a gay individual, I feel isolated in my very own community and sad as that is, it is very common. The gay community has a tendency to be very judgmental with others and many of them expect to be as equals but yet those same exact people are critical of others due to some sort of personality or appearance (such as femininity or not having a "gym" physique"). If you feel that I am being judgmental then so be it, but plenty of gay men need to learn to respect each other because in reality we are all looking for the same thing, equality and acceptance, I just feel that theres so many gay men who need to learn about acceptance within their own community before they think about acceptance on others.
    I do understand your position, I have felt the same way many times. While I don't excuse the individual I am aware that there are social/cultural reasons for this behavior which is complex and multifaceted. So while I don't necesarilly agree with their behavior I am aware that there are reasons, that while it may not justify their behavior, explains it.

  12. #3637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazekickblaziken View Post
    This opinion in specific? No. Describing sin as “Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men. Don’t be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers—they won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t deceive yourself. It’s not right.” is not a tap on the shoulder, it's a punch in the face.

    But you know, I have this horrible habit of holding people accountable for their actions.
    Honestly I disagree, that is his opinion on a broad topic, if he were to say something like Alex Baldwin in which he specifically targeted a homosexual and said degrading things about them, that is more akin to a punch in the face.

  13. #3638
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    Trying to hit me with the old "logic bomb", LDS? Saying that if I'm intolerant of intolerant people, I must be intolerant of myself?

    That only works in the movies, and usually only then on computers.

    It doesn't work on real computers.

    I never admitted that it was a problem. I like the fact that I despise intolerant people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blazekickblaziken View Post
    No, no it's not. That's not how freedom of speech works.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism or freedom from social repercussions. Freedom of speech means that you are (ALMOST) free of *legal* repercussions.
    Don't bother, Blaze. No matter how much you tell that to them, it never sinks in.

  14. #3639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazekickblaziken View Post
    This opinion in specific? No.

    But you know, I have this horrible habit of holding people accountable for their actions.
    This was an opinion you disagree with. Like a tap on the shoulder from someone you don't like or someone you dislike, you perceive it to be worse than it it.

    So are you going to hold all negative opinions accountable or just the ones that are important to you? No one seems to be complaining about the rest of his opinion, just the section about homosexual behavior. Do you think a poster's negative remarks about rednecks should result in some sort of action? Their negative opinion of Republicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post

    I never admitted that it was a problem. I like the fact that I despise intolerant people.
    Good for you. If you have to like something about yourself, make it the fact that you are bigot. (sarcasm)
    Last edited by LDSman; 21st December 2013 at 7:07 PM.
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  15. #3640
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    Isn't this video of Phil Robertson calling LGBT people evil not a punch in the face? This just puts more context to his comments in the GQ magazine.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/2...of-doing-evil/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
    Isn't this video of Phil Robertson calling LGBT people evil not a punch in the face? This just puts more context to his comments in the GQ magazine.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/2...of-doing-evil/
    Yeah I would say THAT is a prime example of a punch in the face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Yeah I would say THAT is a prime example of a punch in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    This was an opinion you disagree with. Like a tap on the shoulder from someone you don't like or someone you dislike, you perceive it to be worse than it it.
    The analogy has served it's purpose, can we just let it die instead of trying make it fit into every nuance of the situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    So are you going to hold all negative opinions accountable or just the ones that are important to you? No one seems to be complaining about the rest of his opinion, just the section about homosexual behavior. Do you think a poster's negative remarks about rednecks should result in some sort of action? Their negative opinion of Republicans?
    Ok, before I continue, some things need to be understood:

    1) The social phenomenon that is discrimination is complex and multilayered, it is not simply "Person x said bad things about group y"
    2) Not all discrimination is equal, some discrimination is based on behavior that people exhibit, while other types of discrimination are based on traits that are *inherent* to the person. They are not the same thing, don't ever try to say otherwise.
    3)Certain types of discrimination have a history that adds context to the discrimination.
    4)Some types of discrimination are so pervasive that they cannot be escaped and carry very real consequences, other types of discrimination are more or less superficial and don't carry the same consequences.

    Now that I have established these facts, I will address your point.

    For one we are only addressing the comments he made about homosexuality because this thread is about... *checks* oh yeah, it's specifically about homosexuality. Fancy that.
    Next what larger social repercussions does making fun of rednecks have? None. Sure, we can call it discrimination, but the truth of the matter is 1) The consequences are because of his behavior, not who he is. 2) Rednecks have no history of being persecuted and having their rights arbitrarily trampled. and 3)Even if he faced REAL discrimination because of who he was, he can just leave and go somewhere else where he won't be discriminated against. Gay people don't have that privilege.

    Discrimination against gays: Real problem

    Discrimination against red necks: Not a real problem

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    I am happy to say though that GLAAD is getting attacked for their part in this.

    http://tv.yahoo.com/news/duck-dynast...010050637.html

    Ever since they showed how two sided they are with the whole Alex Baldwin thing they do deserve some comeuppance.

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    Wow, GLAAD is getting attacked? Sounds like wonderful news, but one question:

    Who are they?

    Oh, I clicked on another link on that website:

    http://tv.yahoo.com/news/jon-stewart...144946093.html

    I didn't even know you could say that on television.

    Still, I gotta agree with Stewart. He's living proof of what he said.
    Last edited by Maedar; 21st December 2013 at 10:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazekickblaziken View Post
    This opinion in specific? No. Describing sin as “Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men. Don’t be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers—they won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t deceive yourself. It’s not right.” is not a tap on the shoulder, it's a punch in the face.

    But you know, I have this horrible habit of holding people accountable for their actions.
    You know he is basically quoting from scripture there? So if he is going by his faith, which he is going to do being a christian, he is right in this comment

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:9&version=NIV
    Last edited by Lugia's Chosen; 22nd December 2013 at 7:45 AM.

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    Where in the bible did it talk about black people being happier before civil rights? Was it before or after the part talking about how women are the man's property?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sogeking View Post
    Where in the bible did it talk about black people being happier before civil rights? Was it before or after the part talking about how women are the man's property?
    That wasn't the comment quoted (which is the one I was talking about), but thanks for cherry picking out of context of the quoted comment and the thread to try and make me look bad.

    For the record I do not agree with that part of Phil's interview and I think it was out of line. Everyone has careless words from time to time. I do not believe blacks were happier before civil rights
    Last edited by Lugia's Chosen; 22nd December 2013 at 7:57 AM.

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    The bible is full of racist, sexist awful things, just because you're quoting one of those parts and believe it doesn't mean you shouldn't be punished for it. This isn't the 1970's homosexuality isn't treated like a mental illness anymore, and to be against it is discriminatory regardless.

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    So just being against homosexuality because it goes against your beliefs makes you discriminatory no matter what? Then I guess I'm discriminatory and always will be. I'm also not in the least ashamed of it and never will be.

    If that is the opinion of a site mod on this thread, I guess I'll leave you guys to it. Thanks for reminding me why I was staying out of the debate forum. My mistake coming back in.
    Last edited by Lugia's Chosen; 22nd December 2013 at 8:07 AM.

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    Yes, being biased against a group of people like that is pretty much the definition of discrimination. You know what's just as bad as being gay in the bible? Wearing clothes made out of 2 different material. I don't know why being gay is the bulletpoint that gets brought up the most, but you can't say this one thing is more bad than the rest without agreeing with the rest.

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