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Thread: Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

  1. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by DruidKairne View Post
    And Ignitionshipping, am I right?

    But, unfortunately, for some it seems sexuality is taboo to talk about. Some people are still up in arms about how Glee presents a bad example to kids by showing openly gay characters in a positive light (especially odd considering it has themes on teen pregnancy, losing virginity, blackmail, drugs, cheating all being much less kid-friendly anyway; and that's all just early in series one), and I'm sure most of us remember the controversy about Brokeback Mountain, treating it as though every kid would be watching it from about the age of 10 or something despite it having an R rating. One of the big defenses used there was the parent saying "I don't want my kids watching [Brokeback Mountain]", ignoring that most "kids" wouldn't probably be watching an R rated romance drama with a touch of tragedy. And of course no one ever heard of gay cowboys before, anyway.
    Actually, I'd choose palletshipping over ignitionshipping :P

    And yeah, most people are really sensitive about it, especially in communities full of boys, not to generalize or anything. I think parents know that kids are easily influenced, so if kids see a lot of gay/lesbian advocation, they might sway in that direction even though they were born straight and have mostly straight urges. I mean, I'm completely straight but when I see my lesbian friend dating other girls I get curious and I wouldn't mind trying it. But to a parent that's like 'ULTIMATE CORRUPTION'. Whatever :/ I just want to meet some fellow boys love pokemon shippers.

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    First of all: Ewww shipping >.< This is not the place for that.


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    I'd consider shipping a completely different kettle of fish from actual, real-life homophobia and gay rights, though. Hard as it may be to believe, I've seen shippers who fetishize yaoi to hell and back who outright claim they think real gay men are gross, or otherwise say they're all for gay rights while their actions frequently call that stance into question. There are probably people who don't immediately jump onboard a male/male ship who are much more okay with the idea of gay marriage than yaoi shippers themselves, too. In that respect, actions tend to speak louder than words... or fanfiction.

    I agree that there tends to be a bigger stigma about boys being gay than girls, though, solely from my own experience. I'd think it has to do with gender roles and boys not being "masculine" enough to want girls, though obviously that's not all there is to it.


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    nah it has everything to do with most guys seeing dudes kiss and going "ewwwww..." but seeing 2 girls kiss and going "oooooooooooh!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    nah it has everything to do with most guys seeing dudes kiss and going "ewwwww..." but seeing 2 girls kiss and going "oooooooooooh!"
    but but i'm a girl and i like yuri, maybe not as much as i like yaoi but, still i wouldn't say ew if i saw two girls kissing :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserin View Post
    I'd consider shipping a completely different kettle of fish from actual, real-life homophobia and gay rights, though. Hard as it may be to believe, I've seen shippers who fetishize yaoi to hell and back who outright claim they think real gay men are gross, or otherwise say they're all for gay rights while their actions frequently call that stance into question. There are probably people who don't immediately jump onboard a male/male ship who are much more okay with the idea of gay marriage than yaoi shippers themselves, too. In that respect, actions tend to speak louder than words... or fanfiction.

    I agree that there tends to be a bigger stigma about boys being gay than girls, though, solely from my own experience. I'd think it has to do with gender roles and boys not being "masculine" enough to want girls, though obviously that's not all there is to it.
    i guess...? i can't really relate to girls who would find yaoi hot but dislike real boys doing each other. i mean, the bastards who got me into BL were ryan and brendan from panic at the disco. those horn dogs were always touching each other on stage. i can never turn back now.
    Last edited by RAGD0LL; 27th May 2012 at 10:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    nah it has everything to do with most guys seeing dudes kiss and going "ewwwww..." but seeing 2 girls kiss and going "oooooooooooh!"
    Heaven forbid, I agree with you for once. It has more to do with guys finding 2 girls kissing hot. Considering males still have the upperhand in todays society. And besides just look at the ammound of countries where homosexuality is ilegal, half of those only count for men.
    Last edited by 7 tyranitars; 27th May 2012 at 10:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    Heaven forbid, I agree with you for once. It has more to do with guys finding 2 girls kissing hot. Considering males still have the upperhand in todays society. And besides just look at the ammound of countries where homosexuality is ilegal, half of those only count for men.
    I'm pretty sure if two girls were kissing on the street in Iran they'd get sentenced to death as quickly as two men. And I hate to break it to you but men don't have the upperhand in western society any longer. Just look at the average couple. Women train their men like dogs.
    Last edited by RAGD0LL; 27th May 2012 at 10:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAGD0LL View Post
    I'm pretty sure if two girls were kissing on the street in Iran they'd get sentenced to death as quickly as two men.
    Yeah but I wasn't talking about Iran. There are quiet a bit of countries where it is like I previously said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    nah it has everything to do with most guys seeing dudes kiss and going "ewwwww..." but seeing 2 girls kiss and going "oooooooooooh!"
    Exactly. The reasoning for this is also pretty simple: when you're attracted to women, there is an aspect of voyeurism in watching two women together. Homophobia comes into play when you start seeing two people of a gender you don't find attracted (or don't want to find attractive) together. This actually has to do with something I mentioned awhile back in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    Some (simplified) causes of an individual's homophobia:
    • fear that the individual may be homosexual or have homosexual urges
    • subsequent need to repress those fears/desires by doing everything from distancing yourself from homosexuality or outright hating it
    • it categorizing homosexuality as being different and alien and bad from the individual, because "if it's different from me, I won't do it"
    • fear that it could affect the individual's identity
    • fear that members of the individual's own sex are untrustworthy because they might be attracted to/rape the individual
    • it threatens the individual's strict view of the world

    From here and here, but there are certainly more.
    Essentially, if you have a guy who thinks he might have some homosexual urges, he can enjoy watching two girls because it makes him feel straight and it won't affect his identity, but seeing two men can make him afraid, because he may like seeing it, it may make him realize he has similar urges, or just make him realize that it's not as "bad" and "gross" and alien as he wants to believe. By being so close to home, he may fear that it can affect him, his identity, his sexuality, and his general ego in some way.

    This is kind of also a problem with liking yaoi but thinking real homosexuality is gross. There's a lot more detachment in liking and shipping fictional characters, I'd say.



    Quote Originally Posted by RAGD0LL View Post
    but but i'm a girl and i like yuri, maybe not as much as i like yaoi but, still i wouldn't say ew if i saw two girls kissing :/
    To be fair, seeing two girls kissing has been normalized a lot more than seeing two guys kissing. There's a bit of a social expectation nowadays that even straight girls are open to kissing other girls (at least if they're drunk enough). Nobody expects your average straight guy to kiss another guy, no matter how inebriated he is. But that's just one way to look at it.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAGD0LL View Post
    I'm pretty sure if two girls were kissing on the street in Iran they'd get sentenced to death as quickly as two men. And I hate to break it to you but men don't have the upperhand in western society any longer. Just look at the average couple. Women train their men like dogs.
    Not talking about Iran. And you should really read up about what privilege is, especially if you think all women control men, or as if that means that women are somehow better off than men.     Spoiler:- For example:




    That said, there is also such thing as straight privilege, which means that none of us straight people have ever been bullied, harassed or abused due to being straight, we've never been denied rights to marry due to our sexuality, we've never been ostracized by friends or family due to being straight, we've never been banned by a religion/religious community due to being straight, our jobs have never been in jeopardy due to being straight.

    That is what a lot of straight people don't realize, and that's why it's called privilege.

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    Edit: Ok, you know what just, ignore my previous post. I read up on male privilege and honestly there's really nothing I can say to that. It's refreshing to know how much it sucks being a girl :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAGD0LL View Post
    Well considering some of my favorite, and most popular boy on boy ships aren't even listed in the 'what's this ship called' thread in the shipper's community says a lot about who created that thread. Aside from that, no one even seems interested in boy on boy ships, which I suppose is understandable considering most of the users here are guys, but still, I'm a little offended they weren't even listed in the master list :/ Blankshipping, Issuhshipping... Where's the love?
    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    First of all: Ewww shipping >.< This is not the place for that.
    The thing I hate about most shipping is that in involves two characters who would never be together. They might be mortal enemies, but some idiot on the internet thought it would be fun to make them lovers. That's essentially changing their character for the purpose of a stupid fanfiction. That includes changing a character's sexual orientation.
    Quote Originally Posted by DruidKairne View Post
    But, unfortunately, for some it seems sexuality is taboo to talk about. Some people are still up in arms about how Glee presents a bad example to kids by showing openly gay characters in a positive light (especially odd considering it has themes on teen pregnancy, losing virginity, blackmail, drugs, cheating all being much less kid-friendly anyway; and that's all just early in series one)
    I find it odd that people think Glee is a gay show. Is it because it was created by a gay man, or is it because Kurt is gay? Correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't seen most of the first season but I've seen the other two, but isn't Kurt the only gay character in season one (besides Rachel's dads, but I don't even know if they appear in season one)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    The thing I hate about most shipping is that in involves two characters who would never be together. They might be mortal enemies, but some idiot on the internet thought it would be fun to make them lovers. That's essentially changing their character for the purpose of a stupid fanfiction. That includes changing a character's sexual orientation.
    Ok. Well, is there anything you like about shipping?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAGD0LL View Post
    Ok. Well, is there anything you like about shipping?
    This isn't a shipping thread. This is a thread for discussing homosexual issues that affect the real world and real homosexuals...

    As a homosexual, yaoi ships generally offend me because of how ignorant straight women are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-kun View Post
    As a homosexual, yaoi ships generally offend me because of how ignorant straight women are.
    ..... :/ I'm sorry if I offended you? I could say the same about porn as a straight woman but whatever. At least yaoi doesn't involve wrapping your hand around someone's throat and ****ing them senseless in front of a camera crew until they've got not even a single shred of dignity left.

    Whoops got off topic there again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAGD0LL View Post
    ..... :/ I'm sorry if I offended you? I could say the same about porn as a straight woman but whatever. At least yaoi doesn't involve wrapping your hand around someone's throat and ****ing them senseless in front of a camera crew until they've got not even a single shred of dignity left.

    Whoops got off topic there again.
    It might as well. Yaoi involves a lot of cold, emotionally or physically abusive semes (who is more often then not "straight" and "decides" to change his sexuality for the uke) and ukes that are women with penises. Straight women have no conception of what being gay is actually like and it bothers me.
    Last edited by Chris-kun; 28th May 2012 at 12:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-kun View Post
    It might as well. Yaoi involves a lot of cold, emotionally or physically abusive semes and ukes that are women with penises. Straight women have no conception of what being gay is actually like and it bothers me.
    I don't want to sound like the stereotypical ditz but I have a gay friends and they talk to me about their relationships quite a bit, so I'm not entirely clueless. However I'm in agreement with what you said, although what you described is shotacon, which I'm not really a fan of. There's nothing appealing about an older man raping an adolescent boy. Generally the yaoi parings I like are pairings that are loving and caring, like a healthy relationship. I think you might have the wrong idea about yaoi fangirls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAGD0LL View Post
    I don't want to sound like the stereotypical ditz but I have a gay friends and they talk to me about their relationships quite a bit, so I'm not entirely clueless. However I'm in agreement with what you said, although what you described is shotacon, which I'm not really a fan of. There's nothing appealing about an older man raping an adolescent boy. Generally the yaoi parings I like are pairings that are loving and caring, like a healthy relationship. I think you might have the wrong idea about yaoi fangirls.
    Most yaoi falls into this kind of category. Gravitation is like the hallmark example of everything wrong with yaoi and why, in my opinion, yaoi is continuing to perpetuate negative stereotypes about homosexuals.

    And this is all beyond the point, this is a thread to discuss the actual gay rights movement, not shipping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-kun View Post
    Most yaoi falls into this kind of category. Gravitation is like the hallmark example of everything wrong with yaoi and why, in my opinion, yaoi is continuing to perpetuate negative stereotypes about homosexuals.

    And this is all beyond the point, this is a thread to discuss the actual gay rights movement, not shipping.
    Well we're on the subject. I mean if it makes you uncomfortable we can stop but I just have to say that's completely untrue. Most yaoi does not fall into that category, and all the yaoi ships in Pokemon certainly don't fall into that category, except maybe harmoniashipping, which no one likes anyway :/

    But yeah. I'll just leave it at that.

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    I think what you're both trying to say is that there are huge issues with portraying relationships in all kinds of media, and that's true. As R4GD0LL mentioned, you get some horrible, abusive and demeaning portrayals of women (because porn is mainly run by men for men) and as Chris-kun said, yaoi also includes some pretty crappy, abusive and silly portrayals of homosexual men and homosexual relationships (because yaoi is largely made by women for women). Obviously there are some fine pornographies and fine ships, and both men and women create and engage in both. But yes, each one is fake/fictional, and each one has its problems. The real question is how do we fix those problems?

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        Spoiler:- Comment from the thread author on the shipping subject:


    I don't know much about shipping, but tell me if I'm right about this. Is yaoi mostly about sexual encounters?

    I think a major issue in this debate is this double standard heterosexuality and homosexuality in the media. We see heterosexuality in the media EVERYWHERE - even in kids shows, we can see couples and crushes and love interests among kids that tells us that love between a male and a female transcends sex to be this sacred bond that people of any age can understand. It's completely innocent. But when we look at portrayals of homosexuality in the media - correct me if I'm wrong - the characters are hypersexual. It's as if they can't be gay without talking about sex or having sex to affirm to the viewers 'we're gay!' It's somehow assumed that if there are gay characters, they have sex, and/or probably found out they were gay because of sex. I don't think I've never seen formalized gay pre-sexual romance in the media. It's as if we can't even imagine it being part of the institution, when I'm pretty sure it exists in real life.

    So I'd have to say the media is a big enforcer of this stereotype that pure love can only be between a man and a woman - and the only way to change that would be for people to make gay characters like this, who are just part of general, not PG-13 life, and not oversexualized. If yaoi doesn't offer stuff like this, I'd have to say it's a problem.
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 28th May 2012 at 4:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
        Spoiler:- Comment from the thread author on the shipping subject:


    I don't know much about shipping, but tell me if I'm right about this. Is yaoi mostly about sexual encounters?

    I think a major issue in this debate is this double standard heterosexuality and homosexuality in the media. We see heterosexuality in the media EVERYWHERE - even in kids shows, we can see couples and crushes and love interests among kids that tells us that love between a male and a female transcends sex to be this sacred bond that people of any age can understand. It's completely innocent. But when we look at portrayals of homosexuality in the media - correct me if I'm wrong - the characters are hypersexual. It's as if they can't be gay without talking about sex or having sex to affirm to the viewers 'we're gay!' It's somehow assumed that if there are gay characters, they have sex, and/or probably found out they were gay because of sex. I don't think I've never seen formalized gay pre-sexual romance in the media. It's as if we can't even imagine it being part of the institution, when I'm pretty sure it exists in real life.

    So I'd have to say the media is a big enforcer of this stereotype that pure love can only be between a man and a woman - and the only way to change that would be for people to make gay characters like this, who are just part of general, not PG-13 life, and not oversexualized. If yaoi doesn't offer stuff like this, I'd have to say it's a problem.
    Glee.

    But I agree. This is the ultimate problem with media portrayals of homosexuality is that until very recently they revolve completely around sex. And in yaoi manga, usually the biggest source of concern and problem is that one or both partners not only identify as straight, but are straight, have straight sexual attractions and sometimes even straight sexual relationships. Then they meet the other partner and decide they're gay. Not bisexual, which is another thing entirely and would be more applicable. I feel women-written male homosexual content for the pleasure of women is as degrading to the gay male community as porn is for women.

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    @sunny

    Yaoi is supposed to be about intimate male romance. If there was non-sexualized homosexual child romance, it would not be called yaoi. I'm pretty sure a lot of it is a branch of hentai, so I think you're in the wrong genre.
    __

    I don't disagree with the points you made about homosexuality being over-sexualized in the media.

    I feel women-written male homosexual content for the pleasure of women is as degrading to the gay male community as porn is for women.
    Women choose to be in pornography most of the time, and Yaoi(s?) are just a visual smut novels for women who enjoy that kind of thing.

    It's not your place to judge people about their sexual enjoyments.

    Next you'll be telling me not to read tentacle hentai because it's degrading to various kinds of squid.
    Last edited by Zevn; 28th May 2012 at 4:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
        Spoiler:- Comment from the thread author on the shipping subject:


    I don't know much about shipping, but tell me if I'm right about this. Is yaoi mostly about sexual encounters?

    I think a major issue in this debate is this double standard heterosexuality and homosexuality in the media. We see heterosexuality in the media EVERYWHERE - even in kids shows, we can see couples and crushes and love interests among kids that tells us that love between a male and a female transcends sex to be this sacred bond that people of any age can understand. It's completely innocent. But when we look at portrayals of homosexuality in the media - correct me if I'm wrong - the characters are hypersexual. It's as if they can't be gay without talking about sex or having sex to affirm to the viewers 'we're gay!' It's somehow assumed that if there are gay characters, they have sex, and/or probably found out they were gay because of sex. I don't think I've never seen formalized gay pre-sexual romance in the media. It's as if we can't even imagine it being part of the institution, when I'm pretty sure it exists in real life.

    So I'd have to say the media is a big enforcer of this stereotype that pure love can only be between a man and a woman - and the only way to change that would be for people to make gay characters like this, who are just part of general, not PG-13 life, and not oversexualized. If yaoi doesn't offer stuff like this, I'd have to say it's a problem.
    Being in love with the same same sex does make you homosexual or bisexual. Wanting to have sex with them does. You can be in love with someone without any physical desire, as many asexual people still have romantic attractions.

    Additionally, what media have you been watching? Most portrayals I have seen try to avoid the whole sex thing. (unless it is going for shock value)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glass Eye View Post
    Being in love with the same same sex does make you homosexual or bisexual. Wanting to have sex with them does. You can be in love with someone without any physical desire, as many asexual people still have romantic attractions.

    Additionally, what media have you been watching? Most portrayals I have seen try to avoid the whole sex thing. (unless it is going for shock value)
    I think what he means by that is what TVTropes has dubbed "All Gays Are Promiscuous." In that, all gay men are shallow and sex-driven. See Will & Grace's Jack for a perfect example of this.

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    Oh yeah, Glee. Forgot about Glee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glass Eye View Post
    Being in love with the same same sex does make you homosexual or bisexual. Wanting to have sex with them does. You can be in love with someone without any physical desire, as many asexual people still have romantic attractions.

    Additionally, what media have you been watching? Most portrayals I have seen try to avoid the whole sex thing. (unless it is going for shock value)
    I don't think you understood what I said. Chris-kun had the right idea. Or I don't understand your reply. Granted I don't have the best perspective of 'the media' since I don't watch much TV or even keep up with a lot of serials besides some anime...but I'd stand by what I said, besides Glee. There is a big stereotype in the media that homosexuals are more promiscous than heterosexuals. TV Tropes explains it well..

    Quote Originally Posted by TV Tropes Trope: All Gays Are Promiscuous
    The homosexual version of I'm a Man, I Can't Help It and All Men Are Perverts.

    Alan is gay. Alan loves Bob. Bob may or may not be gay (or bi) and may or may not eventually partner with Alan; the story needs more time to bring that out one way or the other.

    Alan, meanwhile, happens across a good-looking guy; blushes; and, within the space of a night, is picking up his clothes from the guy's floor. He may then go on to do as much with half a dozen more guys before the story gets around to answering whether or not he can hook up with Bob.

    If this were a heterosexual relationship that we're talking about, it would clearly say something about the character of Alan as an individual (can't keep his pants up, even while waiting for his "love" to accept him...let's not even talk about how this would look if Alan were Alice instead).

    There are certainly celibate characters who have heterosexual urges that they choose to control. Gay characters who choose to be celibate for any significant length of time are almost unheard of. If they're celibate, it's because they can't find a mate, or because they are forced into an abnormal situation.

    This trope has some interesting historical basis, in that many gay and lesbian writers post-Stonewall (and a few queer theory writers more recently) advocated emphasizing difference from heterosexual and normative life. This difference included denigrating marriage and monogamy, thus strengthening the link between homosexuality and promiscuity in the eyes of those who viewed all homosexuals as sick sexual deviants.

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