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Thread: Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

  1. #1251
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    while I appreciate your latest post, I do take a fair bit of issue with what you said before.
        Spoiler:- Why I hate the "it's a choice" argument and find it narrow-minded:


    And hey, if you want to be a slave to your urges in a way that doesn’t harm anyone, I say power to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bariokie View Post
    I just think that the kids need to learn it when the parents tell it to them.Not at a pokemon forum....That is why this thread should be deleted ._.And what do you mean?anyone who will register will know about sexyality?I dont think so...
    If you don't like what's discussion in the Debate forum, you don't need to come here. But it's the internet: if kids don't find out about it here, they'll find out from somewhere else.

    ~Psychic
    Last edited by Psychic; 18th June 2012 at 6:59 AM.

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    It's a choice in the same way that I can make the choice to eat pine cones; I don't like it, it goes against my nature, but it is technically a choice.
    __

    What you desire and feel are not choices, they are compulsions.

    I just think that the kids need to learn it when the parents tell it to them.Not at a pokemon forum....That is why this thread should be deleted ._.And what do you mean?anyone who will register will know about sexyality?I dont think so...
    Sexuality is prevalent everywhere, your only issue is with open discussion about homosexuality. Don't lie to us, don't lie to yourself, and don't try to sensor reality. There's a reason *certain* groups of people exist in a state of stagnation. Make sure you do what mommy and daddy say, accept the easiest answers that lock away your fears in a dark corner of your mind, and deafen yourself to anyone trying to give you the key.
    Last edited by Zevn; 18th June 2012 at 6:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    no one
    anywhere
    believes that race is a choice
    especially not you

    If you've got some evidence that race is a choice, provide it. I and others have already provided evidence in this very thread that homosexuality is a choice. If you disagree with that evidence, that's fine. But you can't reasonably compare our position with a ridiculous, baseless position.


    seriously man
    you
    know
    that
    i
    support
    a
    homosexual's
    right
    to
    marry
    whoever
    they
    please

    Everyone who's been here any amount of time knows that.

    Your attempt to derail the conversation aside, it would still be unfair to afford homosexuals complete protection from any criticism on that site, while not affording that same protection to everyone else. Thankfully however, that's not what they're doing on that site. Whether or not homosexuality is a choice has not bearing on such an obvious inequality. Aside from that, many religions, including many popular branches of Christianity, teach that their religion is not a choice either. Calvinism, for example, teaches that people are predestined by the God of the Bible to join their church. It isn't a choice at all. Its who they are and who they were destined to be.
    This goes even as far that you have already been predestined wether or not you go to heaven or not.
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    That would make free will an illusion and that God is arbitrarily sending people to hell. Thus, God is evil.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    Teaching predestination, and preaching free will; ah the *unassailable* hubris of dogma.
    "He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
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    Guys, please keep your posts on-topic. Tangents go in the tangent thread. :P

    ~Psychic

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post

    Your attempt to derail the conversation aside, it would still be unfair to afford homosexuals complete protection from any criticism on that site, while not affording that same protection to everyone else. Thankfully however, that's not what they're doing on that site. Whether or not homosexuality is a choice has not bearing on such an obvious inequality. Aside from that, many religions, including many popular branches of Christianity, teach that their religion is not a choice either. Calvinism, for example, teaches that people are predestined by the God of the Bible to join their church. It isn't a choice at all. Its who they are and who they were destined to be.
    Forgive me for nitpicking, but don't Calvinists teach that people are pre-destined by God, not whether or not they should go to their church, but whether they are given eternal life or hell? The Westboro Baptist Church teaches similar concepts, but they repeatedly state they are not on conversion missions, but are just telling them they're eternally doomed.

    I agree giving them special protection is a bad idea, because the decision only brings negative attention to homosexuals, and the whole crusade of equality for homosexuals should be about homosexuals leading normal lives just like you and me, not "look at me, I'm gay, LOVE ME." That's how a lot of gays I know behave, not as though they are out to be normal people like you or me, but attention hogs trying to stir up trouble. Believe me, this isn't bashing the gay rights activists, it's just complaining that ones who aren't demanding equality are the noisiest ones. I'm not sure if this is worded clearly, but I in no way am against homosexuals' rights. I'm just against the individuals who rub it in my face constantly.
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    Not reading this whole thread, but as an American, homosexuality SHOULD be a non-issue, as there are WAY more important things to worry about, such as jobs, the economy, the debt we're in, illegal immigration, foreign policy in the middle east, etc.

    I don't support homosexuality, but I say let people do what they want and get back to worrying about things that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    I, and many others including "researchers" believe that race is a choice. If one chooses be Chinese, that's their fault. We shouldn't have to give them rights. If they want to be happy, they should just change their race, because it's so easy to do.
    I lol'd
    Quote Originally Posted by Bariokie View Post
    I'm sorry but i think this thread must be deleted.There are children on this forum!!!If they learn what....they will ask there parents........
    Children should be able to learn about it on their own. Not having parents' biased ways taught. Whether that br Pro or Anti-gay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bariokie View Post
    I just think that the kids need to learn it when the parents tell it to them.Not at a pokemon forum....That is why this thread should be deleted ._.And what do you mean?anyone who will register will know about sexyality?I dont think so...
    There's over 100,000 threads on this forum. They can read a different one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    Guys, please keep your posts on-topic. Tangents go in the tangent thread. :P
    ~Psychic
    There's a tangent thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by ebevan91 View Post
    Not reading this whole thread, but as an American, homosexuality SHOULD be a non-issue, as there are WAY more important things to worry about, such as jobs, the economy, the debt we're in, illegal immigration, foreign policy in the middle east, etc.

    I don't support homosexuality, but I say let people do what they want and get back to worrying about things that matter.
    ^

    Well gay rights do matter. Until all rights are equal, the talk will never end. If you're a legal American, why should you lack a right just because of who you love? And hell. Gay marriages would stimulate even more money. Since marriages are costly and all.

    I was watching a comedy movie about a family, and one of the sons happened to be gay. He got married to his fiance in the movie. His fiance got married in a pretty pink dress with brides maids. I felt uncomfortable with this. I felt the movie followed the " Who's the wife" stereotype. Considering one was all girly and snazzy and the other was bulky and tough. Meh. Thoughts? o3o
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebevan91 View Post
    I don't support homosexuality.
    I want to know why.
    "He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebevan91 View Post
    Not reading this whole thread, but as an American, homosexuality SHOULD be a non-issue, as there are WAY more important things to worry about, such as jobs, the economy, the debt we're in, illegal immigration, foreign policy in the middle east, etc.

    I don't support homosexuality, but I say let people do what they want and get back to worrying about things that matter.
    I think gay rights are as or even more important than the issues you listed. Jobs? I'm a student. The economy? My dad's rich. The dept? Who cares? It's just going to grow forever. Illegal immigration? They're only stealing the jobs that no one else wants to do. The only other issue that I care is religious extremism, which is the reason that gay's don't have their rights in the first place.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebevan91 View Post
    Not reading this whole thread, but as an American, homosexuality SHOULD be a non-issue, as there are WAY more important things to worry about, such as jobs, the economy, the debt we're in, illegal immigration, foreign policy in the middle east, etc.

    I don't support homosexuality, but I say let people do what they want and get back to worrying about things that matter.
    For you those subjects are more important. but for others involved they are obviously not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    I think gay rights are as or even more important than the issues you listed. Jobs? I'm a student. The economy? My dad's rich. The dept? Who cares? It's just going to grow forever. Illegal immigration? They're only stealing the jobs that no one else wants to do. The only other issue that I care is religious extremism, which is the reason that gay's don't have their rights in the first place.
    -If you're a student, how will you pay off tuition? You need a job to pay it off.

    -Your dad isn't the only person in the country. Most Americans are middle or lower class.

    -The debt is obviously going to keep growing but it needs to be slowed.

    -There's more to illegal immigration than jobs.
    Last edited by ebevan91; 21st June 2012 at 8:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ❤Lady Baltny❤ View Post
    I lol'd
    Well gay rights do matter. Until all rights are equal, the talk will never end. If you're a legal American, why should you lack a right just because of who you love? And hell. Gay marriages would stimulate even more money. Since marriages are costly and all.

    I was watching a comedy movie about a family, and one of the sons happened to be gay. He got married to his fiance in the movie. His fiance got married in a pretty pink dress with brides maids. I felt uncomfortable with this. I felt the movie followed the " Who's the wife" stereotype. Considering one was all girly and snazzy and the other was bulky and tough. Meh. Thoughts? o3o
    You do realize that for all rights to be equal, those who don't want to support gay rights, deserve an equal voice too?

    I'm old school and it took quite a lot of soul searching to change my perspective (prejudice if you will!). However having Gay/lesbian friends did lot to educate me on the reasons equality is mandatory. But remember to look at history and see how long it takes to get change to really happen. I would be surprised if I will be alive to see gays finally gain their rights. That' a shame too.

    So true!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebevan91 View Post
    -If you're a student, how will you pay off tuition? You need a job to pay it off.

    -Your dad isn't the only person in the country. Most Americans are middle or lower class.

    -The debt is obviously going to keep growing but it needs to be slowed.

    -There's more to illegal immigration than jobs.
    I also have a job on campus, but I digress. Gay rights are still very important.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebevan91 View Post
    -If you're a student, how will you pay off tuition? You need a job to pay it off.

    -Your dad isn't the only person in the country. Most Americans are middle or lower class.

    -The debt is obviously going to keep growing but it needs to be slowed.

    -There's more to illegal immigration than jobs.
    First of all I don't ****ing care about Americans. Not everyone in the world is an american and ofcourse it have to be an american to be so damn america-centred here this thread isn't about AMURICA.

    Secondly I am not rich but I think Gay rights are important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    First of all I don't ****ing care about Americans. Not everyone in the world is an american and ofcourse it have to be an american to be so damn america-centred here this thread isn't about AMURICA.

    Secondly I am not rich but I think Gay rights are important.
    Then why do you care about what I even posted? I clearly said "AS AN AMERICAN", and that should've implied that I was talking about AMERICA, not the rest of the world.

    I simply stated my opinion in a non-hostile manner and you attacked me. Learn some respect.

    Did you even read my entire post? I said I don't support homosexuality, but I never said I was against it either.

    Imagine a sports team hundreds to thousands of miles away, do I support them? No probably not. Am I against them? Why should I be? I also said it' be best if we let people do what they want to, and start focusing on other issues.
    Last edited by ebevan91; 22nd June 2012 at 1:31 AM.
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    Calm down, everyone. This thread is about homosexuality, not other issues and whether or not they affect you. Also, while many of our members are American, posters should be aware that not all debtors are from the same country and so not all the same laws apply.

    Please keep posts on-topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    You do realize that for all rights to be equal, those who don't want to support gay rights, deserve an equal voice too?
    I get the whole "free speech" thing, but free speech does not mean you are free of criticism or judgement. You can say you hate blacks and women and atheists and vegetarians all you want, but you should damn well expect the response you're going to receive to it. Personally, I don't think racism, sexism, homophobia or any kind of hate against a group of people is an acceptable stance to take, especially not in this day and age.

    So yeah, you can talk about how much you don't believe in/like X, but prepare to get a less-than-pleasant response.

    ~Psychic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    I get the whole "free speech" thing, but free speech does not mean you are free of criticism or judgement. You can say you hate blacks and women and atheists and vegetarians all you want, but you should damn well expect the response you're going to receive to it. Personally, I don't think racism, sexism, homophobia or any kind of hate against a group of people is an acceptable stance to take, especially not in this day and age.

    So yeah, you can talk about how much you don't believe in/like X, but prepare to get a less-than-pleasant response.

    ~Psychic
    Precisely!If the gays and all the people fighting to make change, expect the hate to just roll over and die, they are sorely mistaken. AND the haters get to speak their mind and criticize that which they don't like just as those advocating change criticize the stubborn bigot. It's a two way street or as I prefer a double edged sword. Whats more once the tide changes, they get to bring up all the same arguments used to shame them, when they have to "fight the good fight." and FYI I do expect people to disagree with every stance I have. Why? Because there will always (Yes... faulty generalization) be someone who is opposed to what we believe!

    So true!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    You do realize that for all rights to be equal, those who don't want to support gay rights, deserve an equal voice too?

    I'm old school and it took quite a lot of soul searching to change my perspective (prejudice if you will!). However having Gay/lesbian friends did lot to educate me on the reasons equality is mandatory. But remember to look at history and see how long it takes to get change to really happen. I would be surprised if I will be alive to see gays finally gain their rights. That' a shame too.
    The only reasons people are against homosexuality are religion, and because "it's icky".

    My religion says no one should eat cheese. I also don't like it. I think it should be illegal because of those reasons.

    That didn't prove a thiong I just wanted to state an argument to the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    I get the whole "free speech" thing, but free speech does not mean you are free of criticism or judgement. You can say you hate blacks and women and atheists and vegetarians all you want, but you should damn well expect the response you're going to receive to it. Personally, I don't think racism, sexism, homophobia or any kind of hate against a group of people is an acceptable stance to take, especially not in this day and age.

    So yeah, you can talk about how much you don't believe in/like X, but prepare to get a less-than-pleasant response.

    ~Psychic
    ^ All of this. Just, all of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    Precisely!If the gays and all the people fighting to make change, expect the hate to just roll over and die, they are sorely mistaken. AND the haters get to speak their mind and criticize that which they don't like just as those advocating change criticize the stubborn bigot. It's a two way street or as I prefer a double edged sword. Whats more once the tide changes, they get to bring up all the same arguments used to shame them, when they have to "fight the good fight." and FYI I do expect people to disagree with every stance I have. Why? Because there will always (Yes... faulty generalization) be someone who is opposed to what we believe!
    It's a good thing people disagree on things. If they didn't, gays would have absolutely no rights, and would still be capitally punished for being gay in England. Someone had to start disagree'ing with slavery in America, and then more and more people did; and then it ended. And while racism may still be around it's not really heard of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ❤Lady Baltny❤ View Post
    The only reasons people are against homosexuality are religion, and because "it's icky".
    That's a faulty Generalization. But that's ok!

    My religion says no one should eat cheese. I also don't like it. I think it should be illegal because of those reasons.
    Folks can't eat cows or grapes for those reasons, so I don't see why your point is unreasonable.

    That didn't prove a thing I just wanted to state an argument to the world.
    Feel better now?

    But, while it is allowed, it's hate speech. And it should be unallowed because of the constitution. It drives people to kill themselves. Saying you don't like red shirts may be hate speech against red shirts, but it's not making anyone feel bad because they wear red shirts
    Why is it hate speech Lady B? I can not like something and not be violently disposed to it! people everyday have negative opinions without wanting to hurt. To force change is to cause violence. You and I are disagreeing right now... should that be illegal then?

    If that type of speech is enough to make hundreds, even thousands of children and young adults kill themselves, why should it be allowed? Why?
    Because if they killed themselves over those words they may well have done so over plaid coming back! Words are the most harmless thing unless you give them power. People have been being bullied since the beginning, why MUST we all accept one groups truth over another?

    It's a good thing people disagree on things. If they didn't, gays would have absolutely no rights, and would still be capitally punished for being gay in England. Someone had to start disagreeing with slavery in America, and then more and more people did; and then it ended. And while racism may still be around it's not really heard of.
    This is my point too. there will always be disagreement in the world. To paraphrase marriage Councillors, 'two people will never agree on everything. How they handle this disagreement will determine how well they will coexist.' This is something everyone needs to wrap their head around.

    So true!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    Precisely!If the gays and all the people fighting to make change, expect the hate to just roll over and die, they are sorely mistaken.
    I don't really see what your point is. There are still white supremacist groups and misogynistic "traditionalists" out there who believe blacks and women don't deserve the rights they had to fight for, and there are still people who think that racism and sexism are completely dead. So we have to ignore and/or educate people when necessary. Not every opinion is a "good" opinion - when someone starts insisting the world is flat, you try to show them that it's not, and you move on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    Folks can't eat cows or grapes for those reasons, so I don't see why your point is unreasonable.
    You really don't think it's unreasonable for me to force my dietary constraints onto an entire nation? Just because a group prescribes to a set of rules does not give them the right to force those rules onto others. To my understanding, that's why the separation of church and state exists, and it's also why I can't force you to obey Jewish customs like fasting or circumcising your male babies just because I do.

    The point is that I can practice what I please (so long as it doesn't hurt anyone), but I cannot force anyone else to do the same. Just because he's a monk who can never have sex or marry doesn't mean he can force everybody else to do the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    Why is it hate speech Lady B? I can not like something and not be violently disposed to it! people everyday have negative opinions without wanting to hurt. To force change is to cause violence.
    There's a difference between "I don't like your skin colour shirt" and "YOUR SHIRT IS A SIN AGAINST NATURE AND YOU'RE A HORRIBLE PERSON AND I REFUSE TO GRANT YOU THE RIGHTS OTHER PEOPLE WITH OTHER TYPES OF SHIRTS ENJOY." When your personal opinion results in degrading and removing the rights of another person, there is something really messed up.

    I hate to break it to you, but there is already a history of violence against homosexuals. It's still an offense punishable by death in some countries. But you know what had to happen for women to gain their rights? Suffrage. And here I am today as a result.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    Because if they killed themselves over those words they may well have done so over plaid coming back! Words are the most harmless thing unless you give them power. People have been being bullied since the beginning,
    I don't think you realize that you're victim-blaming here, and that that is incredibly offensive to the kids who have lost their lives and families and friends who have had to deal with it. "They should grow a tougher skin" is NOT an excuse for bullying or allowing bullying to continue. Not all bullying is verbal. Adults have been and still are assaulted for their sexuality. And words are not harmless when the words dehumanize or aim to remove the rights of others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    why MUST we all accept one groups truth over another?
    Sorry, but when one group's "truth" results in degradation, bullying and suicide, I am absolutely, 100% ready to rule them out. When all you preach is hate, you're not worth listening to. The fact that you would defend this kind of bs is beyond words.


    ~Psychic

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    As far as religion is concerned, at least with the Bible, there are a few passages that made the acts of homosexual sex forbidden, and I'd imagine this was due to (bigger back then) health risks. Today, people can look into the health risks of doing this, and at least make informed decisions that will not be harmful to themselves of their partners. Too often I see passages used as reasons to say the behaviour is always sinful today with no exceptions, without realising that maybe things were different in history. Some rules change over time, some do not. I don't have any problem with marriages between two people of any sort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDavidC View Post
    As far as religion is concerned, at least with the Bible, there are a few passages that made the acts of homosexual sex forbidden, and I'd imagine this was due to (bigger back then) health risks. Today, people can look into the health risks of doing this, and at least make informed decisions that will not be harmful to themselves of their partners.
    The Bible never once lists health reasons as the reason the God of the Bible condemns the act of homosexuality. It always list the fact that God abhors it. Its most likely completely arbitrary. Whether or not its healthy has nothing to do with whether or not its a Biblical sin.
    Quote Originally Posted by JDavidC View Post
    Too often I see passages used as reasons to say the behaviour is always sinful today with no exceptions, without realising that maybe things were different in history. Some rules change over time, some do not. I don't have any problem with marriages between two people of any sort.
    If the Bible says "Thou shalt not XXX." and never says "Okay, its cool now." Why should anyone believe that the God of the Bible has changed his opinion?

    And concerning hate speech, there's quite a difference between calmly telling a homosexual that you disagree with them on Biblical grounds, and screaming profanity in their face and that they're going to burn in hell. You can firmly disagree with someone without resorting to hate speech. Homosexuals firmly disagree with me that they're going to hell. They firmly believe that my religion is wrong. I don't accuse any of them (well 99.9% of them) of resorting to hate speech.

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