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Thread: Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

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    The Bible never once lists health reasons as the reason the God of the Bible condemns the act of homosexuality. It always list the fact that God abhors it. Its most likely completely arbitrary. Whether or not its healthy has nothing to do with whether or not its a Biblical sin.If the Bible says "Thou shalt not XXX." and never says "Okay, its cool now." Why should anyone believe that the God of the Bible has changed his opinion?
    Weird how an all powerful, and all knowing being didn't see it coming, or set things into motion that would save people from hell.

    It just all seems like a really bad joke to me; Believing that the creator of the entire universe thought it necessary to perform some magic tricks in a desert region to some primates in an effort to prove omnipotence, or "save" them from "sin."

    If God is all knowing, God creates people knowing that they are being created to suffer for all time. This is a sadistic, and cruel idea. Starting wars is fine, allowing people to go hungry is fine, slaughter is fine, etc; but God forbid someone sleeps with somebody of the same gender.

    *Zevn really hates children with unicorn horns, so he grows some in test tubes, listens to them explain that they can't help but have unicorn horns, then attaches them to a device that causes an infinite loop of consciousness, which then allows him to make them suffer for all eternity.*

    It's the same. I try so hard to take what people like you say with a grain of salt, acknowledging that you are a product of the world, and the life you've lived. Unfortunately I am constantly reminded of why doctrines like yours should not be allowed to exist, forget freedom; the principles it teaches encourage fear, loathing, violence, and disunity. It is appalling that otherwise intelligent people cannot see it for what it is: an ancient system of control used by civilization that could not properly police itself.

    Believe in God if you wish, that is a way of looking at the Universe, and of reality; but do not base your life on an old book that is nigh impossibly inspired by a being who has the power to create everything, and would not create consciousness only to make it suffer, knowing in advance what it's actions would cause(If a human can see this logical failure, omniscience would see it as well.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    The Bible never once lists health reasons as the reason the God of the Bible condemns the act of homosexuality. It always list the fact that God abhors it. Its most likely completely arbitrary. Whether or not its healthy has nothing to do with whether or not its a Biblical sin.
    For something to be completely arbitrary, that would mean there is no reason behind it. People, including God, don't do things with no motive. If God said 'X is bad', there MUST be at least one reason he had for saying so (and at least 1 reason for allowing a book of books with statements against it to contain such things, although the number of reasons would actually probably require scientific notation to express, i.e. there would be LOADS of reasons). If something is a sin, there MUST be at least one reason that the sin is harmful to at least 1 person (or living creature in some cases), otherwise, I don't see how it's a sin. God does not play dice with the universe (cookies if you can quote who said that).

    If the Bible says "Thou shalt not XXX." and never says "Okay, its cool now." Why should anyone believe that the God of the Bible has changed his opinion?
    As far as opinion is concerned, with God, it'd be about facts, not opinions, as he knows everything. However, when dishing out laws, they have to fit the society the laws are for. Some laws will remain eternal ("Thou shalt not murder." is something I don't see going away ever), but some laws may not fit other societies, e.g. Mosaic Law in Leviticus. What I'm getting at, is that there are sometimes exceptions to laws, e.g. stealing food so that you don't die. That's clearly lawbreaking, and something that is rightly condemned, yet it is also an obvious exception to "Thou shalt not steal" that is necessary.

    If you're saying that homosexual people are going to be denied entry into Heaven (based on one passage I saw about people who cannot get into the kingdom of heaven), who's to say God wouldn't offer a 'fix' for homosexuality that they never chose before choosing whether or not to allow them access? According to you, in the past, this has happened already with some people before death (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not going to say it's right to force people not to have certain types of sex, but I would caution people against the blatantly obvious health risks. I'm not going to say it's wrong for relationships between people of the same gender either. I'd also disagree with them going to Hell just because they're homosexuals that practices sodomy, if their nature means it's harmful for them NOT to do it (I don't know much about this area though). One thing I can never do with the Bible is to simply accept things at face value, doing so means the book falls apart with 'contradictions' that turn up at face value, especially with stuff like God in the Old Testament. Also, accepting things at face value goes against the teachings in Proverbs 14:15.

    If you want to debate this further, I'd suggest the tangent thread, unless the conversation remains strictly on the Homosexuality & Politics area. As for whether religion is a tangent though, that itself is debatable, as it's one of the biggest things misused to bash homosexuals (I'm not saying that there aren't people that are religious and disagree with homosexuality).
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    No it isn't primarly centred in America you dolt, so shutup. There are far more places in the world then AMURICA. And more then half of this forum could care less what the average American' biggest worries are like that other guy was complaining about.
    Hm, I backed my opinion up with logic, and you just re-state your argument. I wonder which carries more water. I know there are other places than just America, I simply said that as far as the gay marriage debate is concerned, most people are paying attention to the climate in America as opposed to other countries. I've backed up this statement by saying gay marriage isn't nearly as contested in other Western nations, therefore it makes adequeate sense that one of the biggest developed Western nations on Earth would recieve more attention in this area than any other country. It's not that I think America is the only place on earth, or that the other guy that thought that either. You made those idiotic assumptions based upon your own preconcieved notions and prejudices that Americans are only concerned about themselves and or don't know anything about the world. Hence why I referred to you rightly as a dolt. Don't be a dolt and let your petty pre concieved notions about other nations/people leak out into your debating. That's exactly what you do. There was no God damned reason to chew him out and scold him for not including other countries in his post considering that the debate is primarily centered in America, whether you refuse to accept that reality or not isn't my problem.


    That's a general statement. The explanation afterwards is indicative as to what you might have meant, but, the first part does seem to hold a high attitude that the debate constantly takes place in America as opposed to other countries. Furthermore, you've never even brought up this clarification until now.
    this is maybe why it's a good idea to read entire posts and not just parts. but hey thats just me.


    Gay marriage isn't even legal in most European countries. Only a handful of them have it available. Most of them have civil unions which isn't any different than the ones offered in U.S. states. Such statements are mostly blind, although, I don't blame them since we're one of the few countries that'd allow Fred Phelps in there.
    Yes, but they have civil unions. Which is still illegal in most American states. Either way you spin it, America is still far behind most of the West in the area of gay rights/issues. Since America is the most politically influential Western country and is seen as a "leader nation" just as Britain, France, etc are, people pay more attention to what's taking place here as it sets examples for other countries to follow. i.e. African countries will be much more willing to comply with a changed U.S. government stance on gay rights/marriage considering the humanitarian AID we give them. America is in a position to lead on the issue of gay marriage moreson than any other nation and people know that. That's why they pay more attention. Because if America changes its tune, a whole lot more people are likely to change theirs, and don't act like it isnt true.
    Last edited by Hox; 24th June 2012 at 8:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hox View Post
    Hm, I backed my opinion up with logic, and you just re-state your argument. I wonder which carries more water. I know there are other places than just America, I simply said that as far as the gay marriage debate is concerned, most people are paying attention to the climate in America as opposed to other countries. I've backed up this statement by saying gay marriage isn't nearly as contested in other Western nations, therefore it makes adequeate sense that one of the biggest developed Western nations on Earth would recieve more attention in this area than any other country. It's not that I think America is the only place on earth, or that the other guy that thought that either. You made those idiotic assumptions based upon your own preconcieved notions and prejudices that Americans are only concerned about themselves and or don't know anything about the world. Hence why I referred to you rightly as a dolt. Don't be a dolt and let your petty pre concieved notions about other nations/people leak out into your debating. That's exactly what you do. There was no God damned reason to chew him out and scold him for not including other countries in his post considering that the debate is primarily centered in America, whether you refuse to accept that reality or not isn't my problem.
    No you didn't get it, some Americans assume everyone here lives in America and know what is going on.


    Yes, but they have civil unions. Which is still illegal in most American states. Either way you spin it, America is still far behind most of the West in the area of gay rights/issues. Since America is the most politically influential Western country and is seen as a "leader nation" just as Britain, France, etc are, people pay more attention to what's taking place here as it sets examples for other countries to follow. i.e. African countries will be much more willing to comply with a changed U.S. government stance on gay rights/marriage considering the humanitarian AID we give them. America is in a position to lead on the issue of gay marriage moreson than any other nation and people know that. That's why they pay more attention. Because if America changes its tune, a whole lot more people are likely to change theirs, and don't act like it isnt true.
    To be honest, even if The United States of America legalises any time soon, I can hardly see African and middle east countries legalise it except for some South Africa like countries., considering that in more then half of those countries homosexuality is against the law and are very religious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    No you didn't get it, some Americans assume everyone here lives in America and know what is going on.
    That person you derided didn't assume everyone lives in America, they were using the country they lived in as a point of reference. Your pet peeve about self-centered Americans doesn't relate to this thread, it is off-topic and the argument over it has created spam, so please stop repeating it. Can we just stop that argument over who's a dolt altogether? It's really petty.
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 24th June 2012 at 10:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevn View Post
    ...
    [Your religion] just all seems like a really bad joke to me...
    ...
    [Your religion] is a sadistic, and cruel idea...
    ...
    I am constantly reminded of why doctrines like yours should not be allowed to exist, forget freedom; the principles [your religion] teaches encourage fear, loathing, violence, and disunity. It is appalling that otherwise intelligent people cannot see [your religion] for what it is: an ancient system of control used by civilization that could not properly police itself.
    ...

    I cannot stand [your religion]
    My religion inspires just as much fear, loathing, violence, and disunity as you are right here in this thread. Why is it okay for you to publicly proclaim that my religion is a bad joke, sadistic, and a cruel idea, but not okay for me to proclaim that homosexuality is a Biblical sin? Its always fine when its you doing the division and condemnation, but not the other guy, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by JDavidC View Post
    For something to be completely arbitrary, that would mean there is no reason behind it. People, including God, don't do things with no motive. If God said 'X is bad', there MUST be at least one reason he had for saying so (and at least 1 reason for allowing a book of books with statements against it to contain such things, although the number of reasons would actually probably require scientific notation to express, i.e. there would be LOADS of reasons). If something is a sin, there MUST be at least one reason that the sin is harmful to at least 1 person (or living creature in some cases), otherwise, I don't see how it's a sin. God does not play dice with the universe (cookies if you can quote who said that).
    Bro. I mean this with the utmost respect. Einstein was not a prophet of the God of the Bible. I don't care what he had to say. If the Bible said that God does not play dice with the universe, then it would have some weight. But as far as I've ever read, the Bible never once says that each law must have a universally accepted as reasonable basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by JDavidC View Post
    As far as opinion is concerned, with God, it'd be about facts, not opinions, as he knows everything. However, when dishing out laws, they have to fit the society the laws are for. Some laws will remain eternal ("Thou shalt not murder." is something I don't see going away ever), but some laws may not fit other societies, e.g. Mosaic Law in Leviticus. What I'm getting at, is that there are sometimes exceptions to laws, e.g. stealing food so that you don't die. That's clearly lawbreaking, and something that is rightly condemned, yet it is also an obvious exception to "Thou shalt not steal" that is necessary.

    If you're saying that homosexual people are going to be denied entry into Heaven (based on one passage I saw about people who cannot get into the kingdom of heaven), who's to say God wouldn't offer a 'fix' for homosexuality that they never chose before choosing whether or not to allow them access? According to you, in the past, this has happened already with some people before death (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not going to say it's right to force people not to have certain types of sex, but I would caution people against the blatantly obvious health risks. I'm not going to say it's wrong for relationships between people of the same gender either. I'd also disagree with them going to Hell just because they're homosexuals that practices sodomy, if their nature means it's harmful for them NOT to do it (I don't know much about this area though). One thing I can never do with the Bible is to simply accept things at face value, doing so means the book falls apart with 'contradictions' that turn up at face value, especially with stuff like God in the Old Testament. Also, accepting things at face value goes against the teachings in Proverbs 14:15.

    If you want to debate this further, I'd suggest the tangent thread, unless the conversation remains strictly on the Homosexuality & Politics area. As for whether religion is a tangent though, that itself is debatable, as it's one of the biggest things misused to bash homosexuals (I'm not saying that there aren't people that are religious and disagree with homosexuality).
    I wholeheartedly agree that the God of the Bible "could" offer some new plan. There's clear precedent for that. But where is this new plan offered? I don't see it anywhere in my Bible.
    Last edited by mattj; 24th June 2012 at 2:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    Bro. I mean this with the utmost respect. Einstein was not a prophet of the God of the Bible. I don't care what he had to say. If the Bible said that God does not play dice with the universe, then it would have some weight. But as far as I've ever read, the Bible never once says that each law must have a universally accepted as reasonable basis.
    I'm not saying Einstein is a prophet, what I AM saying is that God would not do things arbitrarily or on a whim. For someone fitting his description, there has to be some sort of master plan behind every thing he does, including any laws he gives out. Any law given out must be reasonable based on what an omniscient person would know, not necessarily based on what any person would know.

    I wholeheartedly agree that the God of the Bible "could" offer some new plan. There's clear precedent for that. But where is this new plan offered? I don't see it anywhere in my Bible.
    Well, if it's one for homosexuals, and if the view on sodomy of any sort being a sin is correct, he'd have to have some way of fixing people who were born with homosexual natures etc, and offer people a choice of what they can do to get into Heaven. I may not see a plan like this mentioned in the Bible myself, but I refuse to believe God would let anyone be born a certain way, and then say they cannot get into Heaven, ever. If people had problems with their nature beyond their control, surely God would have to offer a 'fix' so that people don't have to choose 'sin' due to their nature. There are things such as kleptomania (compulsive stealing) etc that may fall under a similar category, people would need to have things they cannot fix themselves fixed by God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    My religion inspires just as much fear, loathing, violence, and disunity as you are right here in this thread. Why is it okay for you to publicly proclaim that my religion is a bad joke, sadistic, and a cruel idea, but not okay for me to proclaim that homosexuality is a Biblical sin? Its always fine when its you doing the division and condemnation, but not the other guy, right?
    It's not just your religion, and it's not just you. There are people who can juggle chainsaws safely too. Please don't alter my words like that for your convenience.

    I'm not creating the division, I am making observations. My reality might not promise harp strumming angels, and being on bended knee to an aloof God at the end of the road; but it doesn't sentence billions of essentially good people to an eternity of sadness, and suffering either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Sun View Post
    Excuse me for using a "broad term", but I think you know what I meant. Not every religion, but the Abrahamic religions. Sorry for not being too specific for you; I thought the meaning was common sense. Oh, and by the way, in the bible it says that it's a sin... doesn't matter what you believe.
    Of course I knew what you meant. Most people online who complain about "religion" or "religious people" are talking about one or all of the Abrahamic religions. Just because the meaning is implied doesn't mean it isn't a silly way to phrase things. And what I believe certainly does matter to me. I don't have to take the Bible word-for-word to believe in the Christian God. Furthermore, even the people who think homosexuality is a sin don't always use it as a reason to withhold rights from people. I know Mattj at least has said that he doesn't agree with homosexuality, but he's said he wouldn't vote against homosexual rights. I don't necessarily agree with his stance or his debate tactics, but you have to at least give him credit for not proposing that people be kept from having the basic right to marry. It's just silly and ignorant to lump all religious people in the same category, even if they identify with the same religion. Mattj and I are both Christians, but we have vastly different viewpoints on a number of subjects. It's not a matter of me not understanding what you meant, it's a matter of me informing you that making sweeping generalizations about an immense group of people is ridiculous.

    If you make sweeping generalizations about homosexuals, you're a bigot and a homophobe.
    If you make sweeping generalizations about a certain race of people, you're a racist.
    If you make sweeping generalizations about one sex, you're sexist.
    If you make sweeping generalizations about "religious people," it's totally acceptable here because obviously everyone knows you're just talking about three religions out of the hundreds present in the world. Where did this double-standard come from? I realize that no one can control their sexuality (which, I suppose some people consider debatable), race (arguably a social construct, though), and sex (gender roles, which are a social construct, play a part in sexism and the separation between sexes), but they're really not that different.
    Last edited by Pesky Persian; 24th June 2012 at 5:44 PM.

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    I like that post Pesky Persian.
    Quote Originally Posted by JDavidC View Post
    I'm not saying Einstein is a prophet, what I AM saying is that God would not do things arbitrarily or on a whim. For someone fitting his description, there has to be some sort of master plan behind every thing he does, including any laws he gives out. Any law given out must be reasonable based on what an omniscient person would know, not necessarily based on what any person would know.

    Well, if it's one for homosexuals, and if the view on sodomy of any sort being a sin is correct, he'd have to have some way of fixing people who were born with homosexual natures etc, and offer people a choice of what they can do to get into Heaven. I may not see a plan like this mentioned in the Bible myself, but I refuse to believe God would let anyone be born a certain way, and then say they cannot get into Heaven, ever. If people had problems with their nature beyond their control, surely God would have to offer a 'fix' so that people don't have to choose 'sin' due to their nature. There are things such as kleptomania (compulsive stealing) etc that may fall under a similar category, people would need to have things they cannot fix themselves fixed by God.
    I think the marked difference between your stance on this and mine is that I'm a Biblical Prescriptionist. Concerning religion, if its not right there on the page I don't believe it. You, however, are happy to accept assumptions that make sense to you. I'd agree with you that what you're saying probably does make more sense. But as for me, and many others, we can't accept doctrines based on anything other than the words on the page of the Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    My religion inspires just as much fear, loathing, violence, and disunity as you are right here in this thread. Why is it okay for you to publicly proclaim that my religion is a bad joke, sadistic, and a cruel idea, but not okay for me to proclaim that homosexuality is a Biblical sin? Its always fine when its you doing the division and condemnation, but not the other guy, right?
    Are you really using Zevn's comments to justify your homophobia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    Are you really using Zevn's comments to justify your homophobia?
    Do you ever actually bring any logical points to a debate or do you just find the easiest way to make baseless accusations?

    Serious question. Mattj and I don't even get along most of the time, but your comments toward him in this thread are bordering on spam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    Do you ever actually bring any logical points to a debate or do you just find the easiest way to make baseless accusations?

    Serious question. Mattj and I don't even get along most of the time, but your comments toward him in this thread are bordering on spam.
    If there's something I cannot stand in this world, it's intolerance. I'm talking about Zevn's attacks on Christianity. Unlike what mattj said in his post that I quoted, no one was condoning Zevn's bigotry. He's just as wrong as people who hate gays for "choosing" to be gay. I just really didn't like how mattj victimized himself with his perceived anti-Christian bias that this forum actually doesn't have, and then uses that to justify himself when he tells gay people that they are sinners.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    You missed the point entirely. My problem isn't with religion, it's in the way it often inspires hatred. As far as that goes mattj is surprisingly open minded, but take a look at the rest of the world.

    How about Jdavidc, or Pesky Persian: They have a similar foundation to their beliefs, but they don't turn literal interpretations of metaphorical stories, or laws/ideas deeply impacted the time and place they were written into excuses to persecute others.
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    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    yes, yes it does. Facts are that someone will always be persecuted.

    For me, I don't believe religion is the actual issue. The issue is people who misuse the religious terms. For example, the bible proclaims homosexuality as a sin. But Jesus taught love your neighbor as your self. This is basically saying hate the sin, love the sinner. So, telling a homosexual that they are going to hell is actually a sin as defined by Jesus. However, the "christian" will ignore their sins and be quick to persecute others. (The quotes are their because if you are perscuting someone, you are not really a Christian.)

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    Basically what he just said. It's just a thing most of us do. We clump it all together. Because, ones that don't mind, or feel different, never speak out. So it's basically like none of the exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    I wholeheartedly support a homosexual's right to marry. But I cannot see the connection between the civil rights movement and the homosexual fight for marriage equality.

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    I think he was talking about the parallel between interracial marriages and same-sex marriage. It used to be that people of different skin colors couldn't marry. Just like gay couples, they can live together, perhaps call themselves a couple (and put up with the social pressure) and raise a child under one of the parents' name, but not marry legally. Obviously same-sex marriage is not the same as interracial marriage, but there's a parallel in the struggle, and the fact that both consider it their born right to be able to get legally married.

    It would be clearer if he actually wrote something about it, instead of linking a sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    I wholeheartedly support a homosexual's right to marry.
    You don't have to keep defending yourself. My post wasn't directed at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    I think he was talking about the parallel between interracial marriages and same-sex marriage. It used to be that people of different skin colors couldn't marry. Just like gay couples, they can live together, perhaps call themselves a couple (and put up with the social pressure) and raise a child under one of the parents' name, but not marry legally. Obviously same-sex marriage is not the same as interracial marriage, but there's a parallel in the struggle, and the fact that both consider it their born right to be able to get legally married.

    It would be clearer if he actually wrote something about it, instead of linking a sentence.
    The parallel is that a future generation will probably look at both movements the same way.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    Well, when you accuse me of homophobia I suppose it wouldn't hurt to remind people like you that I'm not a homophobe.

    If that's the parallel, I really don't see it. Most african american's don't see it that way either. I just had to facepalm when the leadership of the NAACP publicly came out in favor of homosexual marriage for clearly, c l e a r l y PR reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    If you make sweeping generalizations about homosexuals, you're a bigot and a homophobe.
    If you make sweeping generalizations about a certain race of people, you're a racist.
    If you make sweeping generalizations about one sex, you're sexist.
    If you make sweeping generalizations about "religious people," it's totally acceptable here because obviously everyone knows you're just talking about three religions out of the hundreds present in the world. Where did this double-standard come from? I realize that no one can control their sexuality (which, I suppose some people consider debatable), race (arguably a social construct, though), and sex (gender roles, which are a social construct, play a part in sexism and the separation between sexes), but they're really not that different.
    Well, ignoring the notion that sweeping generalisations automatically make one sexist/racist etc. (nb, they don't), the difference between being born as something and choosing to be something is chasm-like.

  23. #1323
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    If that's the parallel, I really don't see it. Most african american's don't see it that way either. I just had to facepalm when the leadership of the NAACP publicly came out in favor of homosexual marriage for clearly, c l e a r l y PR reasons.
    How is there not a parallel there? One widespread group that of consenting partners believed there was no just reason to not have the right to marry, and they couldn't, but now they can. Another of consenting partners believe there is no just reason to not have the right to marry is slowly getting the right to marry in places all over the world. That's the parallel. A logical comparison doesn't need the unanimous consent of anyone, including the African-American community, to be valid.

    If you can compare gay rights to pedophilic rights as much as you do, then it's worrying that you wouldn't see the parallel with interracial marriage just as much if not more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Well, ignoring the notion that sweeping generalisations automatically make one sexist/racist etc. (nb, they don't), the difference between being born as something and choosing to be something is chasm-like.
    Why would that make a difference to you, whether or not someone chose to be who they are? Aren't you for individual rights and making your own choices? People who choose their own path are entitled to it just as much as people who can't help but take that path.

    It's just like belbackinblack/bel9 used to say; whether someone chose to be gay or just is gay, it doesn't change the fact that either way they are entitled to the right to be gay, choice or not. Same with being religious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    Why would that make a difference to you, whether or not someone chose to be who they are?
    Because if you choose to be something you should expect to take the legitimate criticisms that come with it.

    You can't choose to be born black.

    You can choose to worship a deity/prophet/religion that is shown at times to be violent/prejudiced/patriarchal.

    Aren't you for individual rights and making your own choices?
    More than anyone else on this forum. This is, however, irrelevant.

    People who choose their own path are entitled to it just as much as people who can't help but take that path.
    They also open themselves up to be criticised.
    Last edited by Snorunt conservationist; 26th June 2012 at 7:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    They also open themselves up to be criticised.
    Exactly. Isn't criticism a tenant of free speech? If so how is doing something involuntarily any less open to criticism than doing something by choice? Seems like the ability to criticize is unconditional, and if so it wouldn't be dependant upon whether or not the target of criticism made a choice.

    Just because Pesky Persian said that making sweeping generalizations is bigoted, doesn't mean it CAN'T be done. It just opens you up to criticism, like you said. But if you're the biggest champion of individual choice in the entire forum, then I'd assume you stand up for the right to criticize gay people, choice or no choice, from a religious perspective.

    Otherwise you do not deserve to brag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albus Dumbledore
    Words are, in my not-so-humble opinion, our most inexhaustible source of magic. Capable of both inflicting injury, and remedying it.

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