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Thread: Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

  1. #2401
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    There is no doubt it is a crime, yet they still suffer from the backlash, having it be a crime will not suddenly stop people from lashing out irrationally
    But we don't not do things because we're afraid of people being dicks. Instead, we hold people accountable for being dicks.

    Were there hate crimes before Civil Rights legislation was pushed?
    How about slavery? How about Jim Crow laws?

    Here, racially-motivated lynchings peaked in the 1890s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynchin..._United_States

    And of course there are plenty of nationally well known instances of violent hate crimes against gays in the last several decades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard

    What else are you under the impression people campaigning for expanded rights are fighting against? Do you think an enforced lack of rights doesn't constitute a hate crime in and of itself? Aren't physical and mental attacks necessarily as much a part of keeping people oppressed as unfair laws?

    Is it moral to write off a certain amount of people as collateral damage for such rights?
    You're asking a secondary question. Why is it moral they don't have rights in the first place?
    Last edited by Cipher; 9th November 2012 at 6:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    It appears everyone but BigLutz who is currently posting is on the same page. This is rather amusing.
    It's fun being Devil's Advocate isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher
    But we don't not do things because we're afraid of people being dicks. Instead, we hold people accountable for being dicks.
    We also don't rush head first into things that can cause death and destruction if there is another way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher
    How about slavery? How about Jim Crow laws?

    Here, racially-motivated lynching's peaked in the 1890s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynchin..._United_States

    And of course there are plenty of nationally well known instances of violent hate crimes against gays in the last several decades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard

    What else are you under the impression people campaigning for expanded rights are fighting against? Do you think an enforced lack of rights doesn't constitute a hate crime in and of itself? Aren't physical and mental attacks necessarily as much a part of keeping people oppressed as unfair laws?
    Again for the third time, Rhetorical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher
    You're asking a secondary question. Why is it moral they don't have rights in the first place?
    Never said it was.
    Last edited by BigLutz; 9th November 2012 at 6:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    If their expense provides them happiness, who are you to judge?
    I'm me, that's who, and guess what, one person's temporary happiness is not worth causing permanent harm to another. Ever.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Nor have I advocated doing nothing?
    You said they suffer from the backlash anyway. I see no reason why that means they shouldn't be punished.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    If you followed the line of debate, it was that originally the all powerful Judge in the situation did say it was okay, and it was not our place to impose on some one's happiness.
    With the major stipulation that it is only until the point it causes another person harm, at which point their happiness no longer has priority.



    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    And that stopped people in the 60s right?
    So because making murder illegal doesn't stop it we shouldn't make it illegal?



    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    So the mob is only going to target people who "fought for their rights"
    No, but the "mob" is irrelevant to everything, just a phantom you are using to argue that it is for their own good - an argument which has been tried countless times and always fails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    It's fun being Devil's Advocate isn't it?
    So do you actually believe any of the stuff you're typing? Devil's advocate stance does often involve not actually believing what you're saying and acting for the sake of argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    It's fun being Devil's Advocate isn't it?
    You understand that in order for that phrase to apply, you can't actually believe what you're saying, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    You understand that in order for that phrase to apply, you can't actually believe in with what you're saying, right?
    I think since we passed the "morally wrong" part he hasn't believed a word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post

    If you followed the line of debate, it was that originally the all powerful Judge in the situation did say it was okay, and it was not our place to impose on some one's happiness.
    But your example was people hating it because of their religious doctrine, which wouldn't hold up with a Judge due to the church and state separation thing. Besides, aren't Judges supposed to uphold the laws set out for them by the government?


    And that stopped people in the 60s right?
    It won't ever stop if we keep letting them have their way, so we need to stop accommodating them and instead punish them.


    So the mob is only going to target people who "fought for their rights"[
    No, but they would essentially be martyrs for the cause, and would be used to show how awful those people are.

    Seriously, it's like you're a closeted gay man in Texas scared to death you're going to get lynched so much that you just want the wrong side to be happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sogeking
    But your example was people hating it because of their religious doctrine, which wouldn't hold up with a Judge due to the church and state separation thing. Besides, aren't Judges supposed to uphold the laws set out for them by the government?
    The argument was for a Judge to replace the Government, a "Tyranny of the Few"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sogeking
    It won't ever stop if we keep letting them have their way, so we need to stop accommodating them and instead punish them.
    Not saying we shouldn't

    Quote Originally Posted by Sogeking
    No, but they would essentially be martyrs for the cause, and would be used to show how awful those people are.
    I am sure that would soothe the tears of their loved ones

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    I'm me, that's who, and guess what, one person's temporary happiness is not worth causing permanent harm to another. Ever.
    You are under the impression that one is unhappy, if both are happy in the situation, what is the argument against it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    You said they suffer from the backlash anyway. I see no reason why that means they shouldn't be punished.
    Except shouldn't we focus on ways to stop the crimes? And not merely make have laws we know they will disobey ala the 60s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    With the major stipulation that it is only until the point it causes another person harm, at which point their happiness no longer has priority.
    And yet who is the one decides what is harm and what is happiness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    So because making murder illegal doesn't stop it we shouldn't make it illegal?
    Better idea would be looking at ways to prevent murder in the first place, or make the crime so horrendous that it stops people from acting on it in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    No, but the "mob" is irrelevant to everything, just a phantom you are using to argue that it is for their own good - an argument which has been tried countless times and always fails.
    Then why is it working here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobitic
    So do you actually believe any of the stuff you're typing? Devil's advocate stance does often involve not actually believing what you're saying and acting for the sake of argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher
    You understand that in order for that phrase to apply, you can't actually believe in with what you're saying, right?
    There is the argument that the courts should not write new laws, oh and I do believe in the power of debate ( Although not a prolonged one that would take decades to convince everyone ), but other than that, all merely a enjoyable intellectual exercise.

    Consider some of the debates we have had: Should there be a all powerful judge to decide things? What is the limit of happiness in a society? Is there a acceptable level of violence when conducting Social Change? Is Forced Social Change better than Natural Societal Social Change?

    Has this not made a interesting moral argument?
    Last edited by BigLutz; 9th November 2012 at 6:27 AM.

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    tell us more about your white male privilege BigLutz
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    You are under the impression that one is unhappy, if both are happy in the situation, what is the argument against it?
    I'm done with this argument, it has nothing to do with the actual debate and has been refuted a dozen times.



    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Except shouldn't we focus on ways to stop the crimes? And not merely make have laws we know they will disobey ala the 60s?
    I have no idea how that has ANY relation to what I am saying, at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    And yet who is the one decides what is harm and what is happiness?
    Harm is physical damage, or in certain cases mental distress, and no being "freaked out", "grossed out", or "morally indignant" do not count.



    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Better idea would be looking at ways to prevent murder in the first place, or make the crime so horrendous that it stops people from acting on it in the first place.
    has this ever worked? No. Does this have ANY relation to the debate? No. I'm cutting this thread.



    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Then why is it working here?
    Because you are the type of person who believes your own crap. This chain, also, no longer holds any value. End of line.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    There is the argument that the courts should not write new laws, but other than that, all merely a enjoyable intellectual exercise.
    At this point we have established that pre-existing laws cover all of this, and they simply need to be interpreted properly. Line of inquiry=done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Except shouldn't we focus on ways to stop the crimes? And not merely make have laws we know they will disobey ala the 60s?
    Stopping the crimes stops the crimes. I'm all for healing the criminal, but not if it means postponing granting basic rights to appease them.

    Did you read the part where hate crimes exist as part of any group oppression, well before it's fought? How about stopping those?

    There is the argument that the courts should not write new laws, oh and I do believe in the power of debate ( Although not a prolonged one that would take decades to convince everyone ), but other than that, all merely a enjoyable intellectual exercise.
    So, wait, you actually don't actually believe the ridiculous extreme you've been preaching, and which everyone has been debating against?

    One, thank God. Two, that's concession. Are we done here?

    Consider some of the debates we have had: Should there be a all powerful judge to decide things? What is the limit of happiness in a society? Is there a acceptable level of violence when conducting Social Change? Is Forced Social Change better than Natural Societal Social Change?

    Has this not made a interesting moral argument?
    No. Because the last ten pages have consisted of literally everyone trying to convince you that human rights are inalienable while you asked for proof that hate crimes exist.

    ****.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    Stopping the crimes stops the crimes. I'm all for healing the criminal, but not if it means postponing granting basic rights to appease them.

    Did you read the part where hate crimes exist as part of any group oppression, well before it's fought? How about stopping those?
    Agreed we need to stop those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    So, wait, you actually don't actually believe the ridiculous extreme you've been preaching, and which everyone has been debating against?
    Shouldn't that be obvious? The debate started on what was Tyranny, after that it spawned into a large intellectual exercise to debate morals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    One, thank God. Two, that's concession. Are we done here?
    If you want, Its been fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    No. Because the last ten pages have consisted of literally everyone trying to convince you that human rights are inalienable while you asked for proof that hate crimes exist.

    ****.
    I don't think I ever asked for proof hate crimes exist. The last 10 pages by the way have been a variety of different debates. I should know, I was doing 4 on 1 last night.

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    Please be conscious of including homosexuality in what you're posting. I did put guidelines in the OP for posting on this thread to keep us from veering off subject. (Even though Bel's little transgression was pretty awesome I have to admit.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I'm not gay, you're right but as of now, the politics don't really work in my favor so I have to shrug at that one. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be a government issue. I'm personally am not for same sex marriage and such but that's my own individual opinion and others may have the same but it shouldnt be put up for a vote.
    All of those politics that I mentioned are in your favor which is what I said exactly. You don't have to worry about being assaulted on the basis of being gay (maybe for your gender), you can see your preferred partner in intensive care, and you can sanctify your preferred marriage. The government protects all your rights for you already regardless of whatever else they do you might not agree with. I'm not here to badger you into changing your mind into caring about something you'd like to distance yourself from, but I'm just pointing out that for the people it does affect, and the people who care about them, there's a really good reason to make homosexuality a poltical issue.

    Also, yes, you are privilaged for being straight. Even if you are female. Put it this way: if you get married and start a family, your neighbors will be more likely to socialize with you, let your kids play together, etc, then they would if you married another woman and lived in the same place. My neighbors didn't really let kids come to my house when I was little because they were paranoid of my two mothers being possible pedophiles.
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 9th November 2012 at 8:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    It's a big issue for them. You are of course aware that Marriage provides more benefits than just a piece of paper?
    It is a HUGE issue. Not only is there right to be married being denied but they are being denied tax breaks and so forth that heterosexual couples are getting. Whether you believe that it is right or not, step back and thing about the economic impact it could have.

    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    Please be conscious of including homosexuality in what you're posting. I did put guidelines in the OP for posting on this thread to keep us from veering off subject. (Even though Bel's little transgression was pretty awesome I have to admit.)


    All of those politics that I mentioned are in your favor which is what I said exactly. You don't have to worry about being assaulted on the basis of being gay (maybe for your gender), you can see your preferred partner in intensive care, and you can sanctify your preferred marriage. The government protects all your rights for you already regardless of whatever else they do you might not agree with. I'm not here to badger you into changing your mind into caring about something you'd like to distance yourself from, but I'm just pointing out that for the people it does affect, and the people who care about them, there's a really good reason to make homosexuality a poltical issue.
    I agree that it should be a government issue because it is at that point. I just hate that we are at this point. As humans we shouldn't have to involve a government body to keep everyone equal and allow them the same rights as everyone else.

    Also, yes, you are privilaged for being straight. Even if you are female. Put it this way: if you get married and start a family, your neighbors will be more likely to socialize with you, let your kids play together, etc, then they would if you married another woman and lived in the same place. My neighbors didn't really let kids come to my house when I was little because they were paranoid of my two mothers being possible pedophiles.
    That makes me really sad to hear.....

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    Last edited by BJPalmer85; 9th November 2012 at 2:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    Please be conscious of including homosexuality in what you're posting. I did put guidelines in the OP for posting on this thread to keep us from veering off subject. (Even though Bel's little transgression was pretty awesome I have to admit.)



    All of those politics that I mentioned are in your favor which is what I said exactly. You don't have to worry about being assaulted on the basis of being gay (maybe for your gender), you can see your preferred partner in intensive care, and you can sanctify your preferred marriage. The government protects all your rights for you already regardless of whatever else they do you might not agree with. I'm not here to badger you into changing your mind into caring about something you'd like to distance yourself from, but I'm just pointing out that for the people it does affect, and the people who care about them, there's a really good reason to make homosexuality a poltical issue.

    Also, yes, you are privilaged for being straight. Even if you are female. Put it this way: if you get married and start a family, your neighbors will be more likely to socialize with you, let your kids play together, etc, then they would if you married another woman and lived in the same place. My neighbors didn't really let kids come to my house when I was little because they were paranoid of my two mothers being possible pedophiles.
    (tho I don't pay attention to privileges anyway), I can kind of see where your going. I mean yeah people my neighborhood would kinda feel the same way considering that most of them are heavily against same sex marriage. I understand that people care about the issue (because most have a bleeding heart, sorry to put it out there). Maybe for that alone, I don't mind it being a political issue.

    (OH and someone asked e a question about lifestyles until he deleted it. I'll be honest, yes I do think so)
    Last edited by はるひ; 9th November 2012 at 3:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    (tho I don't pay attention to privileges anyway)
    You've made that quite clear in the past, yes. No need to spell it out for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I understand that people care about the issue (because most have a bleeding heart, sorry to put it out there). Maybe for that alone, I don't mind it being a political issue.
    This is a disgusting statement, and I think you need to stop talking about things you know (and clearly care) nothing about. People care about this issue because it affects them. It affects people they care about. It affects the society and the world they want to live in, and are going to be in for the foreseeable future. It affects, if not who they want to marry, whether these people in question are to be treated as second-class citizens, or like any other human being of their home country. It affects whether they are safe from being assaulted and/or raped based on their sexuality, whether they can be fired from their jobs for being gay, and ultimately what kind of future they'll be limited to. Not directly, no, but allowing gay marriage would be an enormous message that all the rest of the stigma is equally as unacceptable.

    SunnyC already said this, but it seems you failed to read deeper and took the message at face value. This is not just about the ~10% of the population which would actually be directly benefited, or whatever estimate of the gay population they're using now. It is not just a political issue, but a sociological issue, and that means it involves all of any given society -- ours.

    The straight allies aren't being outspoken about it because they're "bleeding hearts," it's because most of them see a deeper meaning to it, and believe everyone should be entitled to love who they want and be treated the same for it regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    It is a HUGE issue. Not only is there right to be married being denied but they are being denied tax breaks and so forth that heterosexual couples are getting. Whether you believe that it is right or not, step back and thing about the economic impact it could have.
    Heh. I live in Massachusetts, which was the first state to legalize gay marriage, and we're not six feet underwater from economic collapse any more than any of the other forty-nine states are at the moment because we give benefits to gay couples. I'd say we're doing okay so far.
    Last edited by Kaiserin; 10th November 2012 at 5:59 AM.


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    I'd just like to drop in and say that I'm so proud to live in a state that's voted to legalize gay marriage. Washington state=best state. Hate is a cancer that wraps around your soul and squeezes the good out of it, and I truly hope the people fighting against gay marriage come to grips with that hate and expel it from their systems. Don't try to tell me that you can love gay people and not want them to marry. That is bull crap, complete and total bull crap. Just, come on, admit you don't like gay people, they make you uncomfortable, and everything else is just a way of making that kneejerk discomfort seem rational. When it isn't. It really, really isn't.
    And if you're a Christian, the Bible explicitly says it isn't your effing job to be god's police, to judge people on earth or force your morality on other people. If you insist gay marriage should be illegal for religious reasons, you're taking it upon yourself to defend God's laws on earth, which Jesus, according to the Bible, does not want you do to. Besides, Christians can't lay claim to marriage as an institution, especially civil marriage, which is a purely governmental thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Quagsire View Post
    Don't try to tell me that you can love gay people and not want them to marry. That is bull crap, complete and total bull crap. Just, come on, admit you don't like gay people, they make you uncomfortable, and everything else is just a way of making that kneejerk discomfort seem rational. When it isn't. It really, really isn't.
    Gay people don't make me uncomfortable. They really don't. And I know (or know of) a lot of other people who disagree with gay marriage but don't hate gays.

    Do you realize you just presumed to know what's inside the mind/heart of a large demographic of people? Do you realize you can't prove your accusation that they are all making excuses for their (disguised) hatred because you can't see into their minds/hearts?


    If you meant that obviously some of the people who claim to disagree with gay marriage are really just hiding their bigotry, you should have just said that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFightingPikachu View Post
    Gay people don't make me uncomfortable. They really don't. And I know (or know of) a lot of other people who disagree with gay marriage but don't hate gays.

    Do you realize you just presumed to know what's inside the mind/heart of a large demographic of people? Do you realize you can't prove your accusation that they are all making excuses for their (disguised) hatred because you can't see into their minds/hearts?


    If you meant that obviously some of the people who claim to disagree with gay marriage are really just hiding their bigotry, you should have just said that.
    Well if you ask me, forcing people to conform to your beliefs is a form of bigotry, regardless of the reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFightingPikachu View Post
    Gay people don't make me uncomfortable. They really don't. And I know (or know of) a lot of other people who disagree with gay marriage but don't hate gays.
    Being uncomfortable with something =/= hating it. Aren't you uncomfortable with people who are proud and assertive of their sins? The other day I witnessed someone stealing a soap dispenser, and I was uncomfortable with them afterwards because stealing is wrong to me. (They were actually really happy about stealing it, too.) Would you be uncomfortable with them in the same way? And if so, why wouldn't you also be uncomfortable around someone who is gay, if you believe homosexuality is a sin too? It honestly seems to me you already have the same belief that we do, that homosexuality is in fact not a problem, and it is different than the sins you recognize.
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 11th November 2012 at 3:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyC View Post
    Being uncomfortable with something =/= hating it. Aren't you uncomfortable with people who are proud and assertive of their sins? The other day I witnessed someone stealing a soap dispenser, and I was uncomfortable with them afterwards because stealing is wrong to me. Would you be uncomfortable with them in the same way? And if so, why wouldn't you also be uncomfortable around someone who is gay, if you believe homosexuality is a sin too? It honestly seems to me you already have the same belief that we do, that homosexuality is in fact not a problem, and it is different than the sins you recognize.
    Uhh...I'm not sure how to explain this all, but I wasn't reading "being uncomfortable with" like that at all. I don't think thievery warrants just "being uncomfortable"; I think it warrants a lot more than that! But at the same time, I disagree with lots of people and believe that their words or actions are sinful, but that doesn't mean that I experience some apprehension by being around them or disgust at the thought of them. If I discuss the disagreement I have with a gay person, sure, the debate may have tension, but in that respect it's just like any other debate. It's not like..."ooh, I'm debating a gay person, I've got feelings I don't get when I debate other people." The abortion debate is the same way; even if someone had some pretty scary views, I'm not sure that would cause weird emotions to pop up in me. Did any of that make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFightingPikachu View Post
    Uhh...I'm not sure how to explain this all, but I wasn't reading "being uncomfortable with" like that at all. I don't think thievery warrants just "being uncomfortable"; I think it warrants a lot more than that! But at the same time, I disagree with lots of people and believe that their words or actions are sinful, but that doesn't mean that I experience some apprehension by being around them or disgust at the thought of them. If I discuss the disagreement I have with a gay person, sure, the debate may have tension, but in that respect it's just like any other debate. It's not like..."ooh, I'm debating a gay person, I've got feelings I don't get when I debate other people." The abortion debate is the same way; even if someone had some pretty scary views, I'm not sure that would cause weird emotions to pop up in me. Did any of that make sense?
    How were you reading 'being uncomfortable with' if not on moral grounds? I'm interested to know your understanding of the distinction. In what way would you describe how you view homosexuality is wrong? Does the practice upset you like eating meat upsets vegetarians, maybe? To me in order to think something is wrong there has to be a connection to the feeling that is wrong, some emotional rejection of wrongdoing. I don't understand having a belief completely dependant on a culture or religion that you've learned. Maybe it's just me. But yeah, it makes sense I guess, not everyone is emotionally invested in debates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFightingPikachu View Post
    Uhh...I'm not sure how to explain this all, but I wasn't reading "being uncomfortable with" like that at all. I don't think thievery warrants just "being uncomfortable"; I think it warrants a lot more than that! But at the same time, I disagree with lots of people and believe that their words or actions are sinful, but that doesn't mean that I experience some apprehension by being around them or disgust at the thought of them. If I discuss the disagreement I have with a gay person, sure, the debate may have tension, but in that respect it's just like any other debate. It's not like..."ooh, I'm debating a gay person, I've got feelings I don't get when I debate other people." The abortion debate is the same way; even if someone had some pretty scary views, I'm not sure that would cause weird emotions to pop up in me. Did any of that make sense?
    i agree.
    just cus i dont agree with gay's doesnt mean that i woul treat them any different than a straight person.
    i am against abortion also, while yeah i would think that what u where doung was wrong but i wouldnt hold it against u personally, cuz its widely accepted.
    for example, i have a bisexual on my friends list...do u see me making a fuss about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ansem the wise View Post
    i agree.
    just cus i dont agree with gay's doesnt mean that i woul treat them any different than a straight person.
    i am against abortion also, while yeah i would think that what u where doung was wrong but i wouldnt hold it against u personally, cuz its widely accepted.
    for example, i have a bisexual on my friends list...do u see me making a fuss about it?
    But you are treating them differently by not allowing them to get married.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    But you are treating them differently by not allowing them to get married.
    people in general are disregarding marrage anyway.
    honestly i could care less.
    if they want to go ahead, i doesnt affect me directly yet.
    i might care when it does.
    if they are going to be gay anyway i dint see why people would not say that they could marry.
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