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Thread: Where's the originality?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    My team consists of Umbreon, weavile, absol, houndoom, sharpedo, and honchkrow, none of which are seen too much on wifi or Pokemon Battle Revolution, so it's not like I'm being such a hypocrite with the same team. But the game is no fun fighting the same team over and over again, just with slightly different movesets or stats.

    I'm just wondering, where is the originality????
    Is your teams name dark side?

    I tend to mix up my teams to adjust to trends that i see on wifi. Try looking at most of these pokemon's egg moves, you get some really cool things. A brief list of pokemon i ran:

    Fake out Blastoise
    Belly Drum azumarill(Ohko'd giratina in the rain with waterfall, mind you)
    Eruption heatran from a close friend
    Countercoat swampert(took the idea from another guy i ran into)
    Curse flareon and vaporeon

    But you have to admit, some of the overused strategies can be altered to do some pretty fun stuff. For example, lets say the opponent leads with Metagross and gengar. Youve all seen this before, havent you. You expect metagross to explode or use earthquake while gengar uses hypnosis or shadow ball.

    Instead, gengar could swagger metagross, who heals with a persim or lum berry while metagross uses agility. That way metagross becomes super powered and defeats a lot more pokemon.

    But this is just 4th gen.

    If you fully beleive you can win a battle by using a pokemon or strategy out of the norm, go ahead. Noone is going to stop you but you. Originality is preferred in most cases as playing the same team over and over is pretty boring. But at that point its pretty much prediction and luck if those are the only people you are playing. Im not going to tell you you suck because your plans didnt work, even if they arfe exceedingly cheap.

    TL;DR, use whatever.
    Last edited by pseudoman; 20th November 2011 at 5:52 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    Of that list there are two fighting types lmao. I didn't even specifically mention the fighting type in the original post, i just said infernape and Lucario, what are you reading?

    Also, unoriginal just means the pokemon that you see in almost everyone's teams, like the above mentioned pokemon. Politoed is rarely seen on Pokemon Battle Revolution, and the same goes for gliscor, but since you probably didn't read the original post entirely you will argue something like you see politoed all the time in UU battles, so whatever floats your boat man.
    I was reading the list that said Infernape and lucario on it, and the caption that said infernape is probably the most overused. Why would you even ask that -_-. If that's the case it is bad for you, but for anyone with a varied team it's not that bad a thing to have 2 pokemon easily revenge killed. You know, instead of a giratina or something .

    I guess you can drop politoed for PBR, but scizor and gliscor still wreck stuff in gen 4 too. Once again lucky you if you haven't seen many gliscors/scizors. I have played a lot of PBR, and if you opponent isn't 6 uber legendaries than you have no right to be complaining about originality. My main poke the entire time was a specs jolteon, which performed suprisingly well given the adverse circumstances. There is no UU or tiers in PBR, and whats this "whatever floats my boat" business. No need to be a smartass lol.

    Anyways lots of people care more about winning than originality(hacked pokemon, ubers ect), so it is nice you are trying something different. However i would take those pokes you listed over Giratina or Lugia anyday.

  3. #53

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    Okay, listen, I want to to download PO if you haven't already and play Gen. V on that. Then you can stop complaining about this pointlessness and "have fun" which is what I think you want to do. You're talking to a crowd of people who are playing Gen. V right now.
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  4. #54
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    I can fully understand the unoriginality with some Pokemon, in my PO sandstorm team I often RQ to Landorus 85% of the time, and out of the people I face they often (90%) of the time have a Ferrothorn, Politoed, Tyranitar or Ninetales (tbh I only see 9Tales much less than any of the others).

    And I use the Pokemon I want to ingame. Such as Lopunny, Flareon, Stunfisk and Swoobat.

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    Yeah it kinda sucks that everyone is on 5th gen, but I guess I'm still kind of stuck in the past. But I'm not the only one lol, tons of people still play PBR, so at least I can still fight other people. But anywayI guess you're all right, save from teams of all users I guess I really shouldn't complain about the common teams because they can still be mixed up in they're own original ways. I just fought a special attack metagross and a physical gengar. Granted they were absolutely horrible and were beaten relatively easily, but I was thoroughly impressed with the originality and I see people can still mix it up, even with those overused teams.

    But seriously, I think we can all agree a physical gengar is a terrible idea....

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoman View Post
    Is your teams name dark side?

    I tend to mix up my teams to adjust to trends that i see on wifi. Try looking at most of these pokemon's egg moves, you get some really cool things. A brief list of pokemon i ran:

    Fake out Blastoise
    Belly Drum azumarill(Ohko'd giratina in the rain with waterfall, mind you)
    Eruption heatran from a close friend
    Countercoat swampert(took the idea from another guy i ran into)
    Curse flareon and vaporeon

    But you have to admit, some of the overused strategies can be altered to do some pretty fun stuff. For example, lets say the opponent leads with Metagross and gengar. Youve all seen this before, havent you. You expect metagross to explode or use earthquake while gengar uses hypnosis or shadow ball.

    Instead, gengar could swagger metagross, who heals with a persim or lum berry while metagross uses agility. That way metagross becomes super powered and defeats a lot more pokemon.

    But this is just 4th gen.

    If you fully beleive you can win a battle by using a pokemon or strategy out of the norm, go ahead. Noone is going to stop you but you. Originality is preferred in most cases as playing the same team over and over is pretty boring. But at that point its pretty much prediction and luck if those are the only people you are playing. Im not going to tell you you suck because your plans didnt work, even if they arfe exceedingly cheap.

    TL;DR, use whatever.
    And yes my team's name on Pokemon Battle Revolution is Dark Side, why, have you fought me recently?

    I do tend to use the same dark team, but occasionally I will switch out some pokemon for other dark types, like absol, honchkrow, darkrai, or sableye.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    And yes my team's name on Pokemon Battle Revolution is Dark Side, why, have you fought me recently?

    I do tend to use the same dark team, but occasionally I will switch out some pokemon for other dark types, like absol, honchkrow, darkrai, or sableye.
    Ive ran into you a few times actually, i think the last time i fought you i had either an ubers team or one of my standard teams( if im correct i used role play houndoom in a battle of ours). This is a long while ago, so im not sure exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by girazard View Post
    You are referring to that argument in the Smogon thread in Competitive Discussion, right? The whole "UU/RU in the Metagame, but "know better" argument is not based around the idea that 'OU, ergo stronger'. It's about choosing the best possible Pokemon for your team. You don't restrict yourself to using ONLY OU, you use the Pokemon that will make your team most effective. If I need a rain-abuser for my team and it would be disadvantageous to use Toxicroak/Dragonite/whatever (because of team synergy) that doesn't mean I can't use Tornadus if it does the job I want it to do best of the Pokemon I can use.

    However, choosing teams this way usually end up being OU Pokemon, because they are, more often than not, the best Pokemon to use. Pokemon are defined as OU not because they have been specifically defined as being better than the others in UU/RU, but because people will use the Pokemon that are best to use on their team, and will therefore be used in the OU meta.

    Winning by using a worse Pokemon when you have some better options does not make you a good player. It makes your opponent, who lost to a sub-par team that was not as good as it could be, a bad player. Take Bibarel. You have no real reason to use him in OU (or any other metagame, TBH) when you have better options. As a Baton Pass recipient, it's outclassed. Moody is banned. Unaware is done better than any other user (and you really don't need boosts to kill Bibarel and render it worthless as an anti-booster anyway). There's no real reason you should use Bibarel over any other Pokemon on your serious competitive team. Winning with him does NOT make you a good player. Building the best team you can is also indicative of skill.



    ...I'd say that 5th gen OU is pretty diverse right now.



    Using a team full of 'original' Pokemon and losing somehow makes you better than someone who loses using Pokemon that are 'overpowered'?
    I keep telling you, no matter how good the monsters in OU are, it's still limiting yourself. Because believe it or not, there aren't many monsters in OU, and even fewer that I'd even be caught dead using on my team. Which is why I hate OU, because it's dominated mostly by monsters I do not like.

    And I keep telling you, your opinion that only sucky trainers use Pokemon below OU, even if they keep winning, is complete rubbish. No matter how good at Pokemon you are, if you ONLY use OU Pokemon, then you are NOT a good Pokemon battler. Only those who can AND DO, because the last thing I mean is "Can, but know better," use lower tiered Pokemon to the same success are true professionals. Like I said, you can beat me with whipping rods and cattle prods till I agree to that Bull-plop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    No, but I think winning with a team full of original pokemon makes you a better player because you don't rely on the normal OU's that everyone else uses.

    It doesn't matter what team you LOSE with, if you lose then your just not as good, and even the people with the OU teams can agree to that. I'm talking about actually winning with teams full of pokemon that you ACTUALLY like. Isn't that what pokemon is about, finding the Pokemon you love and training them to be the best possible, do people seriously only care about winning against other people, that they are just forced to use the ones that are "overpowered."

    And yeah, so many people are like, "well I actually like winning, so I use them" which I just think is sad, because apparently people now are so fully invested in winning that they have to use these kinds of teams. I guess I'm just playing a different game from the rest of you, where the enjoyment of using pokemon I actually like is greater than the enjoyment I receive from using unoriginal and boring teams full of pokemon I don't like. And its not like I'm constantly losing with cruddy Pokemon that I like. I pick the pokemon I like, and then I learn how to use them effectively, and it actually works out really well, and so the argument that people should just use the OU pokemon because they are the best is incorrect. If you have the skills to make a team good, then you can basically put any pokemon you want on it, and I choose to put my favorites on my team.

    But to each his own, I guess it's pointless to try to explain this concept to those who only care about winning...
    What's actually won in online metagame? Do you win items? Money? Rare Pokemon? Then why is winning so important if all you win is a notch to your record? If there's nothing to be gained from winning, then I see no point in using Pokemon you hate just to win instead of using Pokemon you like just to have fun. Winning isn't everything.

    In other words, yes I'd have to side with Dark Side on this one.
    Last edited by MugoUrth; 20th November 2011 at 9:25 PM.


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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    I only play through the 4th generation on wifi and Pokemon Battle Revolution, and from the past couple months I have noticed a complete lack of any originality in the teams that I have fought.

    Why must everyone use the same Pokemon on their teams? I'm talking about such pokemon as:

    Infernape (probably the most overused)
    Gyarados
    Metagross
    Garchomp
    Gengar
    Salamence
    Lucario
    Staraptor

    I'm sure over 75% of you had one or more of these on your 4th gen teams. Was it because you really liked them, or because they are like demi-gods and win too easily.

    Does EVERYONE seriously like all the same pokemon, or has winning become such a desired result that people just use whatever kills the best without actually trying to use the pokemon they like? I run a mono-dark team on Pokemon Battle Revolution, without darkrai that is, and I think it works pretty well, but it's always the same when I fight these people with the run-of-the-mill teams of infernapes and lucarios.

    My team consists of Umbreon, weavile, absol, houndoom, sharpedo, and honchkrow, none of which are seen too much on wifi or Pokemon Battle Revolution, so it's not like I'm being such a hypocrite with the same team. But the game is no fun fighting the same team over and over again, just with slightly different movesets or stats.

    I'm just wondering, where is the originality????
    I use whatever wins and whatever works. Originality was lost when smogon and sites like it made tiers and reveiwed pokemon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NACHOE! View Post
    I listen to a Pokemon Podcast called It's Super Effective
    THANK YOU, DEAR LORD! NOW I CAN STOP USING SMOGON(I hate it. Umbreon in NU? Come on, folks)






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    Quote Originally Posted by Inchtall View Post
    THANK YOU, DEAR LORD! NOW I CAN STOP USING SMOGON(I hate it. Umbreon in NU? Come on, folks)
    I've never actually payed attention to tiers, and so my team is just a mixed of different tiered pokemon. Honestly, I don't really know what each of my guys are, I mean I know weavile is good but is he considered OU because of his outstanding speed and attack. And I basically guard my Umbreon like there's no tomorrow, bringing him into every battle no matter what I'm fighting, but I don't know if he is OU or NU or whatever, I just use him.

    I agree with the earlier post that sites like Smogon have basically ruined the team building process and the fun of having original pokemon with move sets and stats that people put together themselves. I have never used smogon, and even when I do read smogon I never use the move sets because they kind of suck. I just think of my own and they work out really well, I'm not gonna take the advice of someone who probably doesn't know as much about the Pokemon I use than I do myself, so I'll just go with my gut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoman View Post
    Ive ran into you a few times actually, i think the last time i fought you i had either an ubers team or one of my standard teams( if im correct i used role play houndoom in a battle of ours). This is a long while ago, so im not sure exactly.
    Oh yeah I remember that houndoom. That was a long time ago, and I remember asking my friend what you were thinking with such a strange move set, but I was impressed with it. Actually the funny thing is I'm probably the unoriginal one with my houndoom, because I just use the standard flamethrower and dark pulse houndoom instead of trying something weird, like your role playing houndoom.

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    O-O i overuse Lucario... and Empoleon when i use to play platinum now i totaly overuse Bisharp and Zouark xD
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    I had pokemon gold and gengar is my favorite pokemon. I never had a chance to obtain him because I didn't have anyone to trade with. That is the only pokemon on my final team from your list. I play with the ones I like.

    I know what you mean, though. I'm sick of seeing people with 4 or 5 legendaries in their team. I never use more than two on my team at one time. If at all.
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    Just for the record, Gen. IV Weavile and Umbreon are OU and Honchkrow is BL (not good enough for OU but too good for UU) according to Smogon. So yeah, about half your team was considered "the best," whether you knew it or not.
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    I don't care about my pokemon other than their battling potential. If they aren't good at battling, I'm not going to use them. If I have to spend time getting my pokemon to be perfect, so be it. I'll battle your pokemon that are "raised with love" anytime, and you know what? I'll probably win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rey Alejandro View Post
    Just for the record, Gen. IV Weavile and Umbreon are OU and Honchkrow is BL (not good enough for OU but too good for UU) according to Smogon. So yeah, about half your team was considered "the best," whether you knew it or not.
    Well that sucks, but at least I picked them because of how much I liked them, and not because they were OU. And I really don't follow smogon, they really give out horrible advice and have ruined team building. Besides all the move sets they offer are just awful, I don't even know why people use them ,there are a lot more available move sets that are way better than the ones they give you on smogon. At least if they gave out some credible strategies for your pokemon I wouldn't be so against them, but they don't even do that, and again I have no clue why people use them, its actually easier to create a move set for myself.

  17. #67
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    Ok, give an example of Smogon giving out 'horrible advice'.

    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    I keep telling you, no matter how good the monsters in OU are, it's still limiting yourself. Because believe it or not, there aren't many monsters in OU, and even fewer that I'd even be caught dead using on my team. Which is why I hate OU, because it's dominated mostly by monsters I do not like.
    When did I say only to use OUs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Using UU/RU Pokemon in ways that doesn't actually take advantage of some REAL niche in OU is like letting a horse poop on your chest; then when people ask why you let it do that you defend yourself by saying "well now I have all this horse poop", ignoring everyone who tries to reason with you that this isn't really a good thing either.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Best. Analogy. Ever.

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    Well that sucks, but at least I picked them because of how much I liked them, and not because they were OU. And I really don't follow smogon, they really give out horrible advice and have ruined team building. Besides all the move sets they offer are just awful, I don't even know why people use them ,there are a lot more available move sets that are way better than the ones they give you on smogon. At least if they gave out some credible strategies for your pokemon I wouldn't be so against them, but they don't even do that, and again I have no clue why people use them, its actually easier to create a move set for myself.
    People use their movesets because they work. You're probably just bad, or don't even bother reading the reasoning behind the sets/strategies to begin with.

    Doesn't get much more simple than this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redcharzard View Post
    I use whatever wins and whatever works. Originality was lost when smogon and sites like it made tiers and reveiwed pokemon.
    The only originality that is lost from Smogon is what people use from it. You can be just as original as ever, but people follow Smogon's advice because it's simply the most applicable around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inchtall View Post
    THANK YOU, DEAR LORD! NOW I CAN STOP USING SMOGON(I hate it. Umbreon in NU? Come on, folks)
    Little usage = NU. As simple as that. It's really not Smogon's fault it's NU, but the competitive community for using it less. And really, that podcast isn't a replacement for Smogon, its not a competitive podcast. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by stopping using Smogon for It's Super Effective, since they're completely different fandom sites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    Well that sucks, but at least I picked them because of how much I liked them, and not because they were OU. And I really don't follow smogon, they really give out horrible advice and have ruined team building. Besides all the move sets they offer are just awful, I don't even know why people use them ,there are a lot more available move sets that are way better than the ones they give you on smogon. At least if they gave out some credible strategies for your pokemon I wouldn't be so against them, but they don't even do that, and again I have no clue why people use them, its actually easier to create a move set for myself.
    ****... the whole point of Smogon is to give the most effective sets and the most useful Pokemon. Certainly other sets work, but "horrible advice?" Really? The reason it's so popular in the competitive community is because they don't have "awful" sets and do have "credible" strategy. If you don't like Smogon's way of doing things, do what you want, but stop unjustly hating them for ill-supported accusations.


    Now, a general message to all those who give this hate on Smogon: If you don't want to use their sets and suggested Pokemon, don't. They aren't hurting anyone by simply saying what's the most effective. Be original if you choose. Now, if you decide to be original and end up creating an ineffective Pokemon or team, it isn't the fault of anyone but you that others defeat you with the more used Pokemon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A d v e n t™ View Post
    People use their movesets because they work. You're probably just bad, or don't even bother reading the reasoning behind the sets/strategies to begin with.

    Doesn't get much more simple than this.
    Sounds like someone's a smogon slave lol. Too uninventive to think of anything yourself, that's a bummer.

    And there are plenty of pages on smogon that aren't good advice at all. In 4th gen, the only viable move set for Umbreon is a baton passing mean looker? Really? And yes I read the reasoning behind it, and I completely disagree. They say that tyranitar can run the curse set better, but what's the point of that? Tyranitar already has jacked attacks and defenses, and you shouldn't be wasting turns using curse when the already high enough attack can be used effectively as is. Curse actually allow Umbreon's attack to be a viable option while simultaneously boosting his defense, making him some super wall that can also do decent damage. From past experiences, gyarados and aerodactyl aren't much of a threat to umbreon, even if gyarados runs the dragon dance move set.

    Also, they completely ignore the fact that the "only good move set" for Umbreon is completely susceptible to taunt, and if taunted that Umbreon is completely useless on every level. People are smart enough to taunt Umbreons when they see them, and I would think smogon is smart enough to know that, but clearly not.

    In 5th gen, they change it up a bit, but still decide to ignore the curse/payback combo. They leave him with only payback, and given Umbreon's cruddy base attack, even payback won't do much. The preferred move set for umbreon basically can't touch steel types, as steel is immune to toxic and dark is not very effective again steel. Why must they make Umbreon this helpless creature that can't fend for himself? Making him a support unit is mediocre at best, and the only thing he can really pass on is mean look and curse, which takes like 3-8 turns to effectively pull off, not counting any healing or protecting used in between. In other options, they give him curse, but they leave out any attacking skills, and just treat him as a passer.

    Umbreon can be one of the best special walls in the game, and with curse he becomes an all around wall that can also hit back. AND he gets two possible healing moves, but the great and mighty smogon keeps treating him as a mediocre support unit, ignoring the fact that he can fight for himself extremely effectively.

    I'm pretty sure I see that as bad advice, but if you want to make your umbreon that way, go ahead, that's just one more easy kill for me.

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    Please have actual knowledge of competitive battling and Smogon before *****ing about them.

    EDIT: 100th post YEEEEAAAAH
    Last edited by girazard; 21st November 2011 at 7:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Using UU/RU Pokemon in ways that doesn't actually take advantage of some REAL niche in OU is like letting a horse poop on your chest; then when people ask why you let it do that you defend yourself by saying "well now I have all this horse poop", ignoring everyone who tries to reason with you that this isn't really a good thing either.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Best. Analogy. Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skydra View Post
    The only originality that is lost from Smogon is what people use from it. You can be just as original as ever, but people follow Smogon's advice because it's simply the most applicable around.

    Little usage = NU. As simple as that. It's really not Smogon's fault it's NU, but the competitive community for using it less. And really, that podcast isn't a replacement for Smogon, its not a competitive podcast. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by stopping using Smogon for It's Super Effective, since they're completely different fandom sites.


    ****... the whole point of Smogon is to give the most effective sets and the most useful Pokemon. Certainly other sets work, but "horrible advice?" Really? The reason it's so popular in the competitive community is because they don't have "awful" sets and do have "credible" strategy. If you don't like Smogon's way of doing things, do what you want, but stop unjustly hating them for ill-supported accusations.


    Now, a general message to all those who give this hate on Smogon: If you don't want to use their sets and suggested Pokemon, don't. They aren't hurting anyone by simply saying what's the most effective. Be original if you choose. Now, if you decide to be original and end up creating an ineffective Pokemon or team, it isn't the fault of anyone but you that others defeat you with the more used Pokemon.
    I don't quite understand this idea that just because we don't use these overused pokemon we are making bad or ineffective teams that lose all the time. I have built my original team around the ones I like, and they work really well, and I beat smogon slaves all the time because they have become so predictable. I run a mono-dark team, which could probably be pretty easy to beat given that all my pokemon are dark types, but I am still able to win easily, even against those who abuse the OU's and those "effective" smogon move sets you all keep talking about. See I actually learned how to use my team on my own, instead of just going to some fan site to give me all the answers. It was more fun AND I have an original team, you should try it out some time lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by girazard View Post
    Please have actual knowledge of competitive battling and Smogon before *****ing about them.
    Care to bring up a point or two on your side? Just disagreeing with someone and saying they have no knowledge is a sad way to argue with someone. And what exactly is "actual knowledge" of competitive battle then? Please share a point or two of your infinite knowledge and enlighten us all with how much you know. I'm pretty sure knowledge comes from experience, which it seems that you have none of because you can't bring up a single valid point and all your doing is saying I'm wrong and that smogon is right. Clearly you are a smogon slave, but since that's the case I should probably go there to get a response because you will just regurgitate what they say, am I right?

  24. #74
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    Smogon does its best to regulate competitive battling, and I think it does a pretty good job too.

    Skydra said it best, they're not forcing you to do anything. But the simple fact is that Pokemon are OU for a reason, they're used because they're effective. That's just common sense. But if you find a good team/Pokemon that falls outside the OU tier then that's good too. I can easily see how you'd get a sense of pride from being original, but it's also easy to take pride in building an effective team regardless of how overused it is, because it's a powerful team.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    And there are plenty of pages on smogon that aren't good advice at all. In 4th gen, the only viable move set for Umbreon is a baton passing mean looker? Really? And yes I read the reasoning behind it, and I completely disagree.
    Too bad for Smogon. They had a good run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    They say that tyranitar can run the curse set better, but what's the point of that? Tyranitar already has jacked attacks and defenses, and you shouldn't be wasting turns using curse when the already high enough attack can be used effectively as is. Curse actually allow Umbreon's attack to be a viable option while simultaneously boosting his defense, making him some super wall that can also do decent damage. From past experiences, gyarados and aerodactyl aren't much of a threat to umbreon, even if gyarados runs the dragon dance move set.
    With enough setting up, Umbreon can beat TWO Pokemon in OU! One of which is only used for setting up Stealth Rock and dying! Why, that's not terrible at all!

    Are you aware of the existence of such concepts as "shitty movepool" and "Steel types?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    Also, they completely ignore the fact that the "only good move set" for Umbreon is completely susceptible to taunt, and if taunted that Umbreon is completely useless on every level. People are smart enough to taunt Umbreons when they see them, and I would think smogon is smart enough to know that, but clearly not.
    I know, right? It's like they expect it to blindingly obvious when you use Pokemon like that, and only make note of it on Umbreon's analysis page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    In 5th gen, they change it up a bit, but still decide to ignore the curse/payback combo. They leave him with only payback, and given Umbreon's cruddy base attack, even payback won't do much. The preferred move set for umbreon basically can't touch steel types, as steel is immune to toxic and dark is not very effective again steel. Why must they make Umbreon this helpless creature that can't fend for himself? Making him a support unit is mediocre at best, and the only thing he can really pass on is mean look and curse, which takes like 3-8 turns to effectively pull off, not counting any healing or protecting used in between. In other options, they give him curse, but they leave out any attacking skills, and just treat him as a passer.
    Let's list all of the ways Umbreon can hurt Steel types! He'll be good then, rather than some helpless creature that can't defend itself and entirely inferior to other tanks!

    Hmm, nothing. Smogon is obviously at fault here for not listing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    Umbreon can be one of the best special walls in the game, and with curse he becomes an all around wall that can also hit back. AND he gets two possible healing moves, but the great and mighty smogon keeps treating him as a mediocre support unit, ignoring the fact that he can fight for himself extremely effectively.
    Y'know who Smogon treats poorly? Farfetch'd. Why, with Swords Dance, he becomes capable of hurting things! And yet, the great and mighty Smogon treats him as a physicaly offensive weakling, because of its base 65 Attack stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    I'm pretty sure I see that as bad advice, but if you want to make your umbreon that way, go ahead, that's just one more easy kill for me.
    As opposed to having an Umbreon with 150/100/170/95/190/100 base stats. Smogon, if we used that, Umbreon wouldn't suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    I don't quite understand this idea that just because we don't use these overused pokemon we are making bad or ineffective teams that lose all the time. I have built my original team around the ones I like, and they work really well, and I beat smogon slaves all the time because they have become so predictable. I run a mono-dark team, which could probably be pretty easy to beat given that all my pokemon are dark types, but I am still able to win easily, even against those who abuse the OU's and those "effective" smogon move sets you all keep talking about. See I actually learned how to use my team on my own, instead of just going to some fan site to give me all the answers. It was more fun AND I have an original team, you should try it out some time lol.
    Only people new to the site and just trying to understand competitive battling in general will attempt to use six Pokemon lifted out of the analyses. In the upper levels of players, there will be some bog-standard sets - some roles are simply best filled by those Pokemon - but they will be creative, and they will tailor and tweak to fit the needs of their team.

    How do you think the sets in the analyses are created in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side4 View Post
    Care to bring up a point or two on your side? Just disagreeing with someone and saying they have no knowledge is a sad way to argue with someone. And what exactly is "actual knowledge" of competitive battle then? Please share a point or two of your infinite knowledge and enlighten us all with how much you know. I'm pretty sure knowledge comes from experience, which it seems that you have none of because you can't bring up a single valid point and all your doing is saying I'm wrong and that smogon is right. Clearly you are a smogon slave, but since that's the case I should probably go there to get a response because you will just regurgitate what they say, am I right?
    I don't think you've done a stellar job of convincing people you're a competitive player. Just saying.

    I can't speak for other people, nor will I attempt to do so. No, I do not have video recordings of my battles.

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