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Thread: Why does everyone dismiss Ash's pity badges?

  1. #1
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    Default Why does everyone dismiss Ash's pity badges?

    Thought I'd ask this as I was playing through Pokemon Yellow again, and I wanted to question why it is such a bad thing for some of you that Ash in Kanto did not adhere strictly to the games that were being marketed in terms of gyms?

    I dont understand why the writers are given flak for doing something with the cartoon that the games wouldnt allow, something that is the core purpose of a TV show: entertainment. Im going to be honest, seeing Ash do 8 strict-rule gym matches gets hell boring, whereas, for me at least, its really good to watch Kanto back and see him win badges through making Sabrina laugh, saving Cerulean gym. etc.




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    I kind of okayed it for the first three badges:

    1. Boulder Badge: Ash is just beginning, and has a great lack of diversity. Plus Brock had a really tough Pokemon. Though if this was made for a later series, he would probably use Butterfree and it's Confusion ability for a portion of the fight.

    2. Cascade Badge: Debatable on whether they needed to have him getting a pity badge as he was starting to do well, but okay.

    3. Marsh Badge: At the time, Psychic Pokemon were near unbeatable and it would take a lot for Ash to beat Kadabra (Now if this was Generation 2, Squirtle might have been good choice due to having Bite).


    But with the Rainbow Badge, there was no reason why it had to be a pity badge other than inserting a Team Rocket battle. To back up my stance:

    1. Erika had a solid team, but unlike say Brock or Sabrina, her Pokemon weren't uber tough powerhouses.
    2. Ash has had more experience since Brock and Misty, thus making the novelty wear off.
    3. Unlike with Misty or Brock, Ash actually had a couple of Pokemon with type advantage and willing to fight (as opposed to Pikachu not wanting to fight against Misty).
    3a. Heck, Pidgeotto not only had type advantage, but could have easily used Gust to protect itself from Gloom's scent.


    Heck, one has to think the writers were getting tired of it and kind of mocked the cliche in Volcanic Panic.
    Last edited by Antiyonder; 12th November 2011 at 9:14 AM.

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    Because it's cheap and undeserving and battles are usually interesting

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    Which badges did he really win ?

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    I think you just answered your own question.

    Because they were pity badges, they weren't deserved. They were simply given to him without actually winning.
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    It was painfully obvious that Ash was not ready to go to the Pokemon League when he entered Kanto's. He had two fully evolved Pokemon (one was a reserve) and a bunch of underevolved Pokemon who listened to him when they felt like it. Ash relied on some unexpected and untested powerhouses like Kingler and Muk to make it through the preliminaries. Then when we got to his first real match he was utterly humiliated by recieving a disqualification the likes we haven't seen in a League since.

    It didn't help that he messed around during the three months that he was supposed to be " training " before the League.

    Gym Leaders serve as a test for Trainers to determine whether or not they're ready to go into the Pokemon League. This mainly applies for the games where they serve as bosses on your way to the (literal) final dungeon where the Champion awaits. What do you think would happen to you if you were allowed to go to the Pokemon League from Viridian immediately after getting your Starter? Or even to challenge Giovanni as your first Gym rather then the last?

    In the anime it works similarly. Gym Leaders test the skill of a Trainer and the strength of their Pokemon. If they do neither and just hand over the badge then the Trainer learns nothing and their Pokemon don't grow any stronger.

  7. #7

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    I don't, I actually find it a nice way of receiving them.

    It just shows how Ash is hardworking/honest trainer who deserves the badges, obviously if in the Indigo League Ash did rebattle some of the gym leaders which he didn't beat it would have been better just to show that he could actually defeat them, I don't remember Ash ever having a proper battle with Brock after that.

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    He didn't deserve them. All I want to know is how he actually made it into the top 16 in the league and not in last place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    It was painfully obvious that Ash was not ready to go to the Pokemon League when he entered Kanto's. He had two fully evolved Pokemon (one was a reserve) and a bunch of underevolved Pokemon who listened to him when they felt like it. Ash relied on some unexpected and untested powerhouses like Kingler and Muk to make it through the preliminaries. Then when we got to his first real match he was utterly humiliated by recieving a disqualification the likes we haven't seen in a League since.

    It didn't help that he messed around during the three months that he was supposed to be " training " before the League.

    Gym Leaders serve as a test for Trainers to determine whether or not they're ready to go into the Pokemon League. This mainly applies for the games where they serve as bosses on your way to the (literal) final dungeon where the Champion awaits. What do you think would happen to you if you were allowed to go to the Pokemon League from Viridian immediately after getting your Starter? Or even to challenge Giovanni as your first Gym rather then the last?

    In the anime it works similarly. Gym Leaders test the skill of a Trainer and the strength of their Pokemon. If they do neither and just hand over the badge then the Trainer learns nothing and their Pokemon don't grow any stronger.

    In a way, that was sort of good writing while it was under our noses. They constantly showed Ash shirking off his responsibilities, doing Gyms favors rather than actually battling them, and him believing that simply because he was capable of winning a battle that he didn't need to do any sort of training and rely on the "skills" he though he acquired.

    As mad as I was that Ash lost through a disqualification, that's what he really deserved. He made no effort to better his skills and simply thought that he was the greatest Trainer ever, thinking that just because he believed he could win the whole League it meant that he actually could on his own merits. At least Gary had some clue as to what he was doing, which is why I believe Gary should have lasted longer than Ash, despite him being such a cocky show off.

    To this day I have no idea how Ash didn't end up in last place other than dumb luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    It was painfully obvious that Ash was not ready to go to the Pokemon League when he entered Kanto's. He had two fully evolved Pokemon (one was a reserve) and a bunch of underevolved Pokemon who listened to him when they felt like it. Ash relied on some unexpected and untested powerhouses like Kingler and Muk to make it through the preliminaries. Then when we got to his first real match he was utterly humiliated by recieving a disqualification the likes we haven't seen in a League since.

    It didn't help that he messed around during the three months that he was supposed to be " training " before the League.

    Gym Leaders serve as a test for Trainers to determine whether or not they're ready to go into the Pokemon League. This mainly applies for the games where they serve as bosses on your way to the (literal) final dungeon where the Champion awaits. What do you think would happen to you if you were allowed to go to the Pokemon League from Viridian immediately after getting your Starter? Or even to challenge Giovanni as your first Gym rather then the last?

    In the anime it works similarly. Gym Leaders test the skill of a Trainer and the strength of their Pokemon. If they do neither and just hand over the badge then the Trainer learns nothing and their Pokemon don't grow any stronger.
    Honestly, I think the only badge he earned was the boulder badge. Even though he broke the laws of pokemon physics by destroying geodude, he didn't continue to shock onix even though it was weakened by water because that would have been cheating. Yeah, sounds weird..

    But anyway, nearly all of his badges, he lost first go round. That alone tells you that he's severly underqualified for the league..


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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathseer View Post
    To this day I have no idea how Ash didn't end up in last place other than dumb luck.
    If you rewatch the episodes, you'll see a definite air of him lucking into facing rather weak opponents, as well as suddenly discovering a Pokemon he caught ages ago and never looked at since is actually really powerful through no work of his own.

    It's the same with Hiroshi - not once does he come across as an actually skilled trainer, and the last episode of the league practically screams at you that he made it this far through pure luck.

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    I really don't count the Cascade badge as a pity badge. If Pikachu had listened to Ash, he would've won easily (this is even said in the episode). And I think he was turning the battle around as it was.
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    You know, it was sort of cool how Ash would get them back then. It was because of his good deeds that he got them. I guess he could have said "No I'd like to battle for them" but he was still a beginner then.
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    I love that people do ignore that the pity badges DID continue into Johto, even if it was only 2 of them.

    Whitney and Pryce both essentially gave Ash badges without fully beating them. Pryce especially flat-out stops battling even though Pikachu was losing to Piloswine, and hands Ash the badge.

    Whitney of course only gives Ash a badge because Ash used his pokemon to stop Miltank from using rollout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    I don't, I actually find it a nice way of receiving them.

    It just shows how Ash is hardworking/honest trainer who deserves the badges, obviously if in the Indigo League Ash did rebattle some of the gym leaders which he didn't beat it would have been better just to show that he could actually defeat them, I don't remember Ash ever having a proper battle with Brock after that.
    This. In the anime, you're just supposed to prove you deserve the badge. Erika for example, gave him the badge because he learned the lesson she had been trying to teach him, empathy with Pokemon. During their battle she compliments him on his skills but points out his lack of empathy, when he saves Gloom he learns empathy and she rewards him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demonsead View Post
    This. In the anime, you're just supposed to prove you deserve the badge. Erika for example, gave him the badge because he learned the lesson she had been trying to teach him, empathy with Pokemon. During their battle she compliments him on his skills but points out his lack of empathy, when he saves Gloom he learns empathy and she rewards him.
    Your like the only other person to ever agree with me on this lmao :P

    But like you said he shows his worth for the badges:

    Brock = Ash could have won, but felt he cheated and therefore forfeited, Brock felt he deserved since Ash showed honesty in himself.

    Misty = Ash was kind of winning already, but thanks to helping out at the gym and saving it on his own terms (who's not to say another trainer may have ran away scared when TR arrived?) and helped out. The sisters of the gym all said he deserved it, and in this case would have been since he was acting a hero despite having no reason to be.

    Erika = Like you said, he learnt a valuable lesson when risking himself to save the Pokemon, which Erika saw enough as deserving of the badge.

    Sabrina = Kadabra was unable to battle they are the official rules, so Ash won. Not in a battle but still, and since Ash had done Sabrinas family a huge favor of bringing her back to her old self they gave him the badge, it's a good deed.


    So basically, because of Ash being an honest trainer and such doing good deeds is how he earnt the badges, I personally see nothing wrong with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iraqmaster View Post
    Honestly, I think the only badge he earned was the boulder badge. Even though he broke the laws of pokemon physics by destroying geodude, he didn't continue to shock onix even though it was weakened by water because that would have been cheating. Yeah, sounds weird..
    No that was a pity badge. To my memory, they stopped the battle and Brock just gave him the badge and decided to go with him.

    And he did deserve the badges from Lt. Surge, Koga, and Blaine

    Also, there was even a pity badge in Hoenn! Sinnoh was the first region to finally stop it believe it or not.

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    Because he didn't win them in a battle and didn't deserve them, at least that's what I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electivire Addict View Post
    No that was a pity badge. To my memory, they stopped the battle and Brock just gave him the badge and decided to go with him.


    Nah, since Pikachu hit the sprinklers in the gym and therefore weakened Onix, Ash could have won, Brock was willing to accept defeat (even if it was by luck), but since Ash didn't feel he won properly, forfeightd because he wanted to win fair and square.

    Brock then gave him the badge saying that Ash earnt his worth because he 'did' defeat Brock, since if Pikachu had attacked would have defeated Onix.

    He also says about being kind to Pokemon which isn't really relevant.

    Also, there was even a pity badge in Hoenn! Sinnoh was the first region to finally stop it believe it or not.
    What about Johto?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    Nah, since Pikachu hit the sprinklers in the gym and therefore weakened Onix, Ash could have won, Brock was willing to accept defeat (even if it was by luck), but since Ash didn't feel he won properly, forfeightd because he wanted to win fair and square.
    While I agree that Ash was going to win, the reason Ash forefeited wasn't because it was a cheap win (which I don't agree with because he was using the gym to his advantage, but I digress). He didn't want to humiliate Brock when all of his siblings, who see him as a paternal figure, were watching. That's why he chose not to defeat Brock.

    And I think it's important to remember that the goal of a gym leader battle isn't to grind trainers into the ground. That's why it's rare that gym leaders use their strongest Pokemon. It's to overall test the challenger, and the leader gets to define what success is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    While I agree that Ash was going to win, the reason Ash forefeited wasn't because it was a cheap win (which I don't agree with because he was using the gym to his advantage, but I digress).
    I agree so much.

    It's what battlefields are for, to use to advantages, for example a swimming pool arena (Crasher Wakes), water Pokemon can use them to help out big time etc.

    He didn't want to humiliate Brock when all of his siblings, who see him as a paternal figure, were watching. That's why he chose not to defeat Brock.
    Yeah that too although Ash did say he wanted to win fair and square aswell, I forgot about that ^^.

    And I think it's important to remember that the goal of a gym leader battle isn't to grind trainers into the ground. That's why it's rare that gym leaders use their strongest Pokemon. It's to overall test the challenger, and the leader gets to define what success is.
    Which is exactly why half of the badges people consider 'pity' badges I don't.

    Ash deserved them for his work and efforts helping people and pokemon and showing an ability to fight strategically.

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    That's not what he was getting at. He is saying that it is not a Gym leader's job to beat every challenger into the ground, they merely test the ability to battle in different situations. They aren't taking pity on them by not using their strongest Pokemon, they are merely playing down their opponents level so that they stand a chance of winning.

    If every Gym Leader used nothing but their strongest Pokemon all the time against every opponent, then no one would be able to win a badge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathseer View Post
    That's not what he was getting at. He is saying that it is not a Gym leader's job to beat every challenger into the ground, they merely test the ability to battle in different situations. They aren't taking pity on them by not using their strongest Pokemon, they are merely playing down their opponents level so that they stand a chance of winning.
    I know that, i was relating the whole conversation together that's all.

    If every Gym Leader used nothing but their strongest Pokemon all the time against every opponent, then no one would be able to win a badge.
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    Oh come on, guys. The entire point behind Satoshi's forfeit in his battle against Takeshi was that, regardless of what's "technically defendable as being within the rules", using a completely unintentionally invoked advantage like that to win a fair battle you were losing is a massive dick move. When your opponent is a guy who called a time out in order to tell you to resign, being that you both knew you weren't winning and continuing would just result in your Pokemon being unnecessarily hurt, pulling a move like that is not going to reflect well on you.
    Unlike Sinnoh Satoshi, Kanto Satoshi might've willing to accept badges he knew he didn't really deserve, but that doesn't mean he was willing to be a complete jerk about it.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dephender View Post
    Oh come on, guys. The entire point behind Satoshi's forfeit in his battle against Takeshi was that, regardless of what's "technically defendable as being within the rules", using a completely unintentionally invoked advantage like that to win a fair battle you were losing is a massive dick move. When your opponent is a guy who called a time out in order to tell you to resign, being that you both knew you weren't winning and continuing would just result in your Pokemon being unnecessarily hurt, pulling a move like that is not going to reflect well on you.
    Unlike Sinnoh Satoshi, Kanto Satoshi might've willing to accept badges he knew he didn't really deserve, but that doesn't mean he was willing to be a complete jerk about it.
    Your saying it's a dick move that Ash did it, yet Ash did actually give in to the battle despite being able to win since he didn't think it was fair and didn't wanna ruin Brock's rep with his family.

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