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Thread: legendary's

  1. #1

    Default legendary's

    Maybe i'm the only one that thinks so, but i find the use of legendary pokemon in any competitive format to be stupid. as everyone knows i'm sure; all legendary's have a significant advantage over most pokemon. Which in turn has the metagame split into many categories and doesn't allow many favorites among the populace to even stand a chance in the higher tiers

    In fact the majority of my favorites are in UU and RU, but because i want to be able to use one or two pokemon that are found in OU on my team, i am doomed to be at a major disadvantage because i refuse to use any cheap legendary pieces. Not to mention the aesthetic sense that legendary's don't feel all that "legendary" when your opponent has the same one as you.

    I for one, collect legendary pokemon just for sake of having them in my PC box or use them to sweep through the elite 4 without having to waste money on revives and potions.
    So what is it about legendary pokemon to you that drives you to use them in combat?

    discuss
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    Not true.

    Entei is completely inferior to Arcanine.
    Deoxys Defense is, arguably, inferior to Skarmory and Forretress.
    Mew is inferior to SOMETHING, almost regardless of its set.
    Moltres is bad because of Stealth Rocks.
    Cobalion is inferior to Lucario due to weak offense and no Extremespeed.
    Regigigas is garbage because of its ability. The other Regis are also pretty bad.
    Mespirit is pretty bad compared to a ton of things like Starmie.

    REALLY strong legendaries like Mewtwo and Kyogre ARE banned. The rest match up fine against other strong Pokemon like Salamence, Ferrothorn and so on.

    I probably should close this but lets see if anything interesting comes out of it!

  3. #3

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    i meant most pokemon.. i know there are some exceptions of course, but do you agree that because legendary's are in the meta game that people are forced to build teams to counter them just because of the threat of them?

    i've found because of this that i can't play with pokemon i'd prefer to play with because i like the general look and moveset but their defenses are a tad on the weak side, they will always get OHKO by any legendary on the field, where as they might survive one shot from most other pokemon or at least get a hit in first

    but when you are going up against somebody that has mostly legendary's on the team, you now can't even put that pokemon in your party in fear of it just sitting there until it's the last one standing and will be inevitably wiped when it comes into play
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    Nothing is stopping you from using entei and ect. In OU, but as BH said they are out classed. I am fine with non banned legendarys in completive play.

    Edit: The Regis and other legendarys are not going to be big threats in OU because they (for the most part) are lower tiered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemaster75 View Post
    i meant most pokemon.. i know there are some exceptions of course, but do you agree that because legendary's are in the meta game that people are forced to build teams to counter them just because of the threat of them?
    Please give at least one example of a pokemon like this.
    Most crazy-overpowered pokemon are in Ubers, so unless you want to fight fire with fire, you don't worry about those.
    Others who aren't in Ubers aren't there for a reason. It's like saying any pokemon with high stats is too strong and shouldn't be used. Legendary is just a term used for pokemon that have some part in the creation or guarding of the pokemon world.
    BTW in the title, it should be legendaries, not legendary's


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    Put it this way, there are eight "legendaries" in OU. The only thing that sets them apart from other Pokemon is that they tend to have higher BSTs.

    Here's a list of highest base stats in OU:
    -HP: Blissey
    -Attack: Haxorus
    -Defense: Cloyster
    -Sp. Atk: Volcarona
    -Sp. Def: Blissey
    -Speed: Deoxys-S (which is an example of a Pokemon that is too good IMO), Starmie is next

    Bar Deoxys-S, none of these fall into the "legendary" category. All of the OU legends are either not fast enough, don't have enough bulk, or don't hit hard enough.


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    I think saying "You use legendaries, I wont battle you" Is a complete bulls*it. They are just part of the game as same as other pokemon. For example SB blaziken isnt legendary, but it has quite an adventage above alot of not uber pokemon.
    The fact thatthey are legends doesnt change anything.
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  8. #8

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    agreed most "legendary" pokemon are not very powerful. sure many of them have higher base stats than non-legendaries and some of them have better move pools but other than that there are only a few truly legendary pokemon that are overly powerful due to typing and stats. examples include the lati twins, mewtwo, arceus, and darkrai. these examples may not be correct because i know little to nothing about UU,OU,RU,& NU but the point is valid. so suck it up if you want to use pokemon you like then use them and throw in a decent legendary on your team just incase you do come up against other legendaries, it might not be abel to take on a whole team of them but it at least gives you a fighting chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemaster75 View Post
    Maybe i'm the only one that thinks so, but i find the use of Gengar, Infernape and Ferrothorn in any competitive format to be stupid. as everyone knows i'm sure; Gengar, Infernape and Ferrothorn have a significant advantage over most pokemon. Which in turn has the metagame split into many categories and doesn't allow many favorites among the populace to even stand a chance in the higher tiers

    In fact the majority of my favorites are in UU and RU, but I don't understand that in any tier, some Pokemon are always going to be better than others and that we shouldn't ban some Pokemon because GameFreak says that they are 'legendary'.

    I for one, use in-game logic for competitive.

    discuss
    Ban Pokemon because they are overpowering. Terrakion, Celebi and Latios are not overpowering. Legendary =/= broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Using UU/RU Pokemon in ways that doesn't actually take advantage of some REAL niche in OU is like letting a horse poop on your chest; then when people ask why you let it do that you defend yourself by saying "well now I have all this horse poop", ignoring everyone who tries to reason with you that this isn't really a good thing either.
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    i dont use legendarys they are waaaay too overpowerd and should not be allowed in any competative battles i just use pokemon non legendary pokemon that i breed ev and iv i got lucky w my superior potential brave and quck tempered metagross
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Not true.

    Entei is completely inferior to Arcanine.
    Deoxys Defense is, arguably, inferior to Skarmory and Forretress.
    Mew is inferior to SOMETHING, almost regardless of its set.
    Moltres is bad because of Stealth Rocks.
    Cobalion is inferior to Lucario due to weak offense and no Extremespeed.
    Regigigas is garbage because of its ability. The other Regis are also pretty bad.
    Mespirit is pretty bad compared to a ton of things like Starmie.

    REALLY strong legendaries like Mewtwo and Kyogre ARE banned. The rest match up fine against other strong Pokemon like Salamence, Ferrothorn and so on.

    I probably should close this but lets see if anything interesting comes out of it!
    BH has summed this up really. There are legendaries that are overpowered and unbalanced the metagame, but all those have been banned to uber. The inferior legendaries, such as articuno, regigigas etc, don't unbalanced the metagame at all, and this is reflected in their tier.

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    Use or don´t use Legends, is your choice they don´t "split" the game other pokemon do because they out class other Pokemon, for Example my Favorite Electric type Pokemon is Ampharos, and it sucks Jolateon out classes it because it´s faster and has better moves, the legendaries can play a huge role on a player´s team or not and like ohter said there are some legendaries that simply suck, and no offense but if your favorites and in lower tiers that´s no Excuse I have used UU and even RU in my Ou tams and they have succeded deppending on how I play them, and stats are not all Strategy is and even the most powerful legend will fall to a strategy that can neuteralize it, just search "Lv1 Starly Vs Lv 100 Arceus" on youtube and you´ll se why Strategy kills power
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    Some legendaries are broken, and get voted into being banned but most legendaries have counters like all other pokemon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by complete legitimacy View Post
    Put it this way, there are eight "legendaries" in OU. The only thing that sets them apart from other Pokemon is that they tend to have higher BSTs.

    Here's a list of highest base stats in OU:
    -HP: Blissey
    -Attack: Haxorus
    -Defense: Cloyster
    -Sp. Atk: Volcarona
    -Sp. Def: Blissey
    -Speed: Deoxys-S (which is an example of a Pokemon that is too good IMO), Starmie is next

    Bar Deoxys-S, none of these fall into the "legendary" category. All of the OU legends are either not fast enough, don't have enough bulk, or don't hit hard enough.

    All true, but Legendaries in OU are more balanced in their stat-totals (bar some exceptions like Deoxys-S) and can be a defensive or offensive core, not just a big bruiser. Terrakion and Virizion come to mind since they represent a core attack and defense pivot that would compliment a whole team.

    That said, I personally don't like using Legendaries if I can help it. It is more a choice for me really based on the old school days, the original "UBER" class of Mewtwo and Mew fighting the bird trio and Alakazam. I always prided in myself in trying to not use them to win because everyone else did at the time...and I guess it's a tradition I just kept up.

    Of course, I have the non-uber legenderies battle-ready if need be, but if I can build a team without them, I will do so.
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  15. #15

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    i'm new to competitive battling is all, so i'm really just curious. I've always played games with friends where we always just state a no legendary rule. I always found that it brings out a lot more interesting teams rather than just the best of the best

    it's just the way i feel about them and i wanted to get other people's opinions out there to see if anybody was on board with my thought process where competitive style play can at least have a little more leeway in terms of what else can be fielded and i guess yeah, maybe taking a second look at it; not all the legendaries are as powerful as i once thought they were. Probably because as soon as i looked at a legendary i automatically looked at it as an instant UBER before looking at it's stats

    the fact still remains though that i won't use them due to my beliefs but now i don't feel so bad about going up against some of them now that i know some of their stats (though still high) aren't as high as i once thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Soperman View Post
    BTW in the title, it should be legendaries, not legendary's
    that's funny, i had it originally as legendaries but my web browser gives it the red underline of incorrect spelling when spelled this way so i just changed it until it wasn't underlined anymore. oh well

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemaster75 View Post
    So what is it about legendary pokemon to you that drives you to use them in combat?

    discuss
    this was more about what i was looking to get out of you guys

    is it pure stats that drives you to them?
    the thought of having legendaries on your team?
    the pure "i want to win" aspect?
    do they offer something more unique to a team that can't be filled by another pokemon? even one that may be a bit weaker but you like more; but you use it because you'd rather win more over enjoying the team you play?

    i don't mean to stir up emotions in this, i'm just a curious person is all

    the entire point of this thread was for me to get my foot in the door, show that i have a personality and become a part of a community for a game i've enjoyed since the original red and blue (i was in high school when those games were released.. and man do i feel old)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Not true.

    Entei is completely inferior to Arcanine.
    Deoxys Defense is, arguably, inferior to Skarmory and Forretress.
    Mew is inferior to SOMETHING, almost regardless of its set.
    Moltres is bad because of Stealth Rocks.
    Cobalion is inferior to Lucario due to weak offense and no Extremespeed.
    Regigigas is garbage because of its ability. The other Regis are also pretty bad.
    Mespirit is pretty bad compared to a ton of things like Starmie.

    REALLY strong legendaries like Mewtwo and Kyogre ARE banned. The rest match up fine against other strong Pokemon like Salamence, Ferrothorn and so on.

    I probably should close this but lets see if anything interesting comes out of it!
    In terms of straight up battling, this is very true. However, it all really comes down to personal preference. For example, the concept of multiple legendaries
    just seems preposterous in my book, also the concept of legendaries are Pokemon so rare that the common trainer doesn't have them. Obviously I'll catch them for Pokedex purposes but when it comes to Competitive Battling I try to avoid Legendary Pokemon on my Team as much as possible.

    But as I said, this is all a matter of personal preference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemaster75 View Post
    this was more about what i was looking to get out of you guys

    is it pure stats that drives you to them?
    the thought of having legendaries on your team?
    the pure "i want to win" aspect?
    It's the "I need something to do x, y, and z hey look a Pokemon that does x, y, and z" aspect.

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    ^^^Exactly. Too many new people build teams with the mindset of "I'm going to use Pokemon X. Now what should I do with Pokemon X?". The proper way of thinking "I need a physical sweeper. Now what should I use?" You should pick roles and decide on an overall strategy before picking any Pokemon. This is something only the player can decide because no one else will be battling with your playing style besides you.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemaster75 View Post
    i'm new to competitive battling is all, so i'm really just curious. I've always played games with friends where we always just state a no legendary rule. I always found that it brings out a lot more interesting teams rather than just the best of the best
    Playing competitive as in Pokemon Online is different than playing with friends. If you want to play with friends with whatever rules you play with, you should call them up.

    The fact is the only defining characteristic of a Legendary Pokemon is that it is deemed as such by Game Freak and the Powers-That-Be. In no way does being a Legendary Pokemon make it inherently better (or worse) in battle.

    In fact, since they can't breed, one-off Legendaries and Event exclusive Legendaries are arguably harder to obtain with high IVs. Of course, the ever increasing use of RNG neglects that argument a bit, but for non RNG competitive players, that's how it works out.

    And while Legedaries generally have a high stat total, that means little. What's more important is where the stat sare, and do they have the typing, movepool, and ability to utilize those stats. Take Articuno for example. It's Ice/Flying, giving it a x4 weakness to Rock attacks and it means it loses 50% HP from switching into Stealth Rock. Doesn't matter it it's HP, DEF, and SPDEF stats are a quadrillion, it'll still lose 50% HP by switching into SR.

    As for being "penalized" because you use a few UU Pokes, that isn't penalizing. But if you're going to play a standard, OU battle, then you need to prepare for standard, OU threats. If an UU can hold it's own, then use it. However, most UU are UU for a reason. They often fill niche roles in OU. Anything else is probably done better by someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquadon View Post
    In terms of straight up battling, this is very true. However, it all really comes down to personal preference. For example, the concept of multiple legendaries
    just seems preposterous in my book, also the concept of legendaries are Pokemon so rare that the common trainer doesn't have them. Obviously I'll catch them for Pokedex purposes but when it comes to Competitive Battling I try to avoid Legendary Pokemon on my Team as much as possible.

    But as I said, this is all a matter of personal preference.
    It's also worth keeping in mind that most competitive battling takes place in battle simulators.
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    Here is something for you to know:

    salamance is MUCH more threatening than latios and latias

    same for haxorus

    both are beasts better than some legendaries

    annd here is something: articuno is NU! get it NU no one uses articuno it is bad it have the base stats but doesn't have move set or typing to do nothing, jirachi? it haxful but something faster can kill it easily with a SE attack

    some pokemons (like volcarona) are more threatening than none legendaries, also all legendaries (except some rare cases) have predictable move sets to a point you know how to counter them.

    here is a good point cobalion is UU while lucario is OU same typing normal> legendary

    sure terakion,celebi,latios and latias are really scary but.. ferrothorn? scizor? blissey?

    really there are normal pokemons better than legendaries terrakion is top OU like salamance is so? that's a reason to hate legendaries?

    I remind you excadrill excadrill can wipe out a full uber team

    even a magikarp can:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY

  20. #20
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    Well here's a complete breakdown on all of the legendaries and their impact on competitive battling:

    Articuno: First, it has a 4x Stealth Rock weakness. Second, it has no moves, especially since Sheer Cold is banned. At best it can SubRoost. All you need to worry about are Ice and Flying attacks.
    Zapdos: A pretty solid mon, but not overpowered. You usually have a good idea what kind of attacks it will have. Tyranitar stops it well, you can force it out for SR damage, and a good fraction of sweepers carry Rock or Ice attacks.
    Moltress: 4x SR weakness again. Fairly shallow movepool. Volcarona is a better choice. Can still be useful in lower tiers though.
    Mewtwo: I'm not going to argue against this one. 110/154/130 offenses with 106/90/90 defenses. Also really good movepool.
    Mew: 100x6 stats aren't what they used to be. Base 100 speed only ties with most legendaries these days. You want a Nasty Plot Sweeper? Zoroark and Azelf do that with better stats. You want a support wall? Chansey/Blissey do that better. Baton Pass? Smeargle can have Spore and Shell Smash/Quiver Dance. Its typing makes killing it not too difficult.
    Raikou: Good special Sweeper, but not the widest movepool and Earthquake's pretty much a OHKO
    Entei: Pretty small movepool for a physical sweeper, and Arcanine has access to Fighting, Electric, and Ground moves with more useful abilities.
    Suicune: Suicune is better as a wall, which means Taunt is a problem for the classic CroCune sets. Ferrothorn, Blissey, and anyone with Water Absorb/Storm Drain pretty much make it worthless.
    Ho-Oh: Basically a Moltress that's actually good. Brave Bird and Sacred Fires off of a base 130 attack? And 106/90/154 defenses? Yeah, that's bannable.
    Lugia: Some of the best defenses in the game, and it has Roost. Yeah it's understandable that it's uber.
    Celebi: IIRC Grass/Psychic is the type combo with the most weaknesses. If you don't have something on your team with an attack that OHKOs Celebi something's wrong with your teambuilding. Also struggles to take down Dragons.
    Regice: Mono-Ice typing is terrible defensively. And it has base 50 speed. Easy kill.
    Registeel: This one has better defenses, more resistances, and can use Curse well enough. Still easy prey to an Earthquake, Close Combat, or a few Flamethrowers though.
    Regirock: If you don't have anyone with a Water, Steel, Fighting, Ground, or Grass attack on your team, you probably should go back to the drawing board with your team
    Latios: Not that bad without Soul Dew. You can Pursuit or Sucker Punch it, especially since many versions are choiced. Gengar also speed ties non-scarfed ones.
    Latias: I actually find this one more annoying. But it still has trouble with Scizor, Tar, Blissey, etc.
    Groudon: Uber, 'nuff said
    Kyogre: The most popular uber for good reason. Autorain, Water Spout, and Thunder....next please
    Rayquaza: Base 150 attacks + DD+Extremespeed? It might be uber
    Jirachi: another base 100X6, but with a super-awesome ability. However, it's still checked by Ground types, Heatran, Volcarona, Scarftom-W, Magnezone...
    Deoxys: Normal and Attack versions are def. uber. Speed, however, us usually used for support and is on the frail side. Defense is awesome if used correctly, but it's also setup fodder for DDers and Volcarona, and Scizor laughs at it.
    Azelf: Solid offenses and a decent lead, but pretty much OHKOed by Pursuit/Sucker Punch or some neutral attacks.
    Uxie: More of a defensive utility mon. Unlikely that it will OHKO you.
    Mespirit: The worst of the trio. Bad speed that lets it get KOed by many sweepers
    Dialga: Uber and only Dragon IIRC that isn't weak to Dragon
    Palkia: Yep. Only one weakness and better speed.
    Giratina: My favorite uber. Has over 500 HP at max. Next...
    Cresselia: Not an offensive threat unless it gets a ton of CMs in. Also needs to worry about weather
    Darkrai: Nobody likes 80% accurate sleep moves from a base 125 speed mon = ubers
    Manaphy: It has a move that offers +3 SA, plus good defenses and instant Rest awakening with Hydration. It would definitely not be OU this generation.
    Phione: It's just a base 80X6 mon without Tail Glow. Nothing to fear
    Heatran: I kinda feel like this one was meant to not be a legendary in the storyline, similar to Volcarona. While it can be annoying, it fear Water, Earthquakes, Fighting moves, and furthermore only has base 77 speed.
    Regigigas: You have 5 turns to take pot shots at it.
    Shaymin: Shaymin-S is understandably uber, but normal Shaymin is outclasses by Ferrothorn and Celebi (although Seed Flare can be fun). Also has a decent number of weaknesses.
    Arceus: Don't go there.
    Victini: Fairly easy to check just like other Fire types.
    Cobalion: Outclassed by Lucario and has no moves
    Terrakion: A double-edged sword. Its typing is great offensively and bad defensively. Good speed, but that doesn't matter when there's Bullet Punches/Mach Punches/Aqua Jets to fear.
    Virizion: Good for anti-weather, but has to worry about Psychics, Fire, Ice, and Flying
    Tornadus: Understandably the inferior one in the trio. Relies heavily on Hurricane and frail.
    Thundurus: Already voted uber; basically a frailer yet faster Zapdos with Nasty Plot
    Landorus: Not much to worry about. Basically a more offensive Gliscor without Poison Heal.
    Reshiram: Uber
    Zekrom: Uber
    Kyurem: Remember what I said about Regice? Well here it is again. While it has great offensive stats, its physical attack goes wasted. Bullet Punches and Mach Punches easily puts it in its place. Also weather-reliant for max Blizzard spam.

    Going to skip Keldeo, Meklotta, and Genesect because they don't exist yet.

    Furthermore, a breakdown of legendaries by tier:
    Uber: Arceus, Darkrai, Deoxys (A), Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Kyogre, Groudon, Lugia, Zekrom, Reshiram, Ho-Oh, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Shaymin-S, Thundurus
    OU: Terrakion, Celebi, Virizion, Jirachi, Lati@s, Heatran, Deoxys-S, Landorus
    BL: Kyurem
    UU: Azelf, Cobalion, Cresselia, Deoxys-D, Mew, Raikou, Registeel, Suicune, Tornadus, Victini, Zapdos, Shaymin
    RU: Entei, Moltress, Uxie
    NU: Articuno, Phione, Regice, Regirock, Regigigas, Mespirit

    And non-legendaries in Ubers:
    Blaziken
    Garchomp,
    Excadrill
    Wobbufett and Wynaut*
    Smeargle, Bidoof, and Octillery**
    Ludicolo, Kingdra, Kabutops, Magikarp, Mantine...***

    *=While not banned this generation, these two were banned in Gen III & IV thanks to Shadow Tag + Encore
    **=All of these have access to the ability Moody, which is so broken it's even banned in Ubers. It allows a Bidoof to take down an Arceus with enough luck
    ***=These guys got Swift Swim, which means that in all tiers below Ubers you cannot use then in conjunction with a Drizzler on your team. The combo is legal in ubers though.

    I have claimed Giratina

  21. #21

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    guess i've still got a lot to learn

    and here i thought i had it mostly figured out
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    ^ I think you pretty much summed it up, although why you hate on Arceus D:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Go2heck View Post
    ^ I think you pretty much summed it up, although why you hate on Arceus D:
    Ninja'd!

    Anyways, kaiser soze hit the nail. Usually Legendaries have better overall stats and that's about it. Sucks a bit that you can't use those like Jirachi and Kyurem in-game while you run into the likes of Excadrill and Blaziken but what are you going to do?

    Make a game that uses Smogon's tiers! It's not going to happen, there's asking permission as well (I think).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Ninja'd!
    lol I didn't notice

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    Well, the thing about Ubers in-game is that they are often not in a scenario exactly like a competitive match. You never face a Speed Boost Blaziken in-game. I've never recalled the AI using Sandstorm to raise the speed of an Excadrill, nor do I think it ever paired it with a sand-starter. Being overleveled helps significantly too. And of course, if you're the one using Ubers, do you think the AI's going to complain?

    I have claimed Giratina

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