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Thread: Kid Icarus: Uprising

  1. #6451
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    I started trying to beat all the chapters on 9.0 and get all the treasure hunt peices, hopefully I'll 100% the game in a few months
    3DS FC:4253-3982-7075 ~ MAL

  2. #6452

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    Just to make my points, FINALLY, no thanks to this forum's restrictions.

    There are plenty of imbalances in Kid Icarus Uprising. And it seemed that it was particular mods, powers, and weapons that managed too many issues. But after reviewing things, it turns out that mods in general are a horrible overpowered mess for plenty of reasons. It gets to the point where simple 100V weapons are not viable even against bots.

    Simply put, mods need to go.

    I will provide TWO links, both with raw data, that will be used to make my points:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...mc&usp=sharing
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Hc&usp=sharing

    If you want to deconstruct anything in either of them as false, then try whatever you have in mind out in the game yourself. See if it will be different. Trust me: it won't.

    Reasons why mods are OP

    Now what are the problems with mods? Well, let's review, shall we?

    Too cost-effective

    Some of the mods I complained about before in the past actually stand out for being too OP in and of themselves, namely Evasion+ (infinite invincibility), Freezing+ (lol1hkville), Melee Combo+ (lolmindlessmelee) and Shot Range+ (lolplussixtypercentrange). Power Attack+ also got listed on vanilla TV Tropes' page for KIU Game Breakers with this gem:
    The Power Attack modifier is a Glass Cannon example. Having Power Attack +4 (the highest possible) on a weapon usually means you won't get much in the way of stats and other modifiers, but the trade off is that it ''doubles'' the strength of Powers like Mega Laser, Explosive Flame, Meteor Shower, Land Mine, and so on. What were once panic buttons become lethal surprise attacks, and the modifier on a weapon with decent damage and/or an innate Speed boost makes for a good one-two punch KO for whatever survives the Power spam. Granted you have to die to get your Powers refreshed after using them all up, but done right you should be gaining more than you're losing.
    And that doesn't even get into attack powers IGNORING DEFENSES. That particular bit irks the bajeezus out of me: Mega Laser can be spammed and Health +6 won't save you from being killed too bloody quickly. Not when it gets used with Energy Charge.

    In truth, though, these are just standouts for the balance issues involved. Here's the real problem: mods are too powerful, period. Remember how I mentioned that 100V weapons suck against bots? Well, I found this out from trying them out against them. I can tell you from that much that you are punished for being anything but a wuss, which is innately bad. I could go on an L9 bot LvD, end up dying 6-8 times, use a near-300V weapon with matching defenses in the next bot LvD, and do *MUCH* better, as in only die twice being generous TO THE BOTS. You can argue that I'm talking about LvDs. Well, guess what? Last I checked, the game's multiplayer was designed with LvDs in focus. It should have been obvious to the game developers that mob tactics would inevitably be abused. They did NOTHING to alleviate that problem, and it shows when AI opponents with mediocre attack power mods, not even abusing Energy Charge, kill me just by sneezing on me all because I'm using a meager 100V weapon.

    The fact that Overall DEF itself manages stupidity at the end of it all is the biggest disgrace. I had originally thought that Overall DEF was the most expensive mod in the game (discounting Range Stars, but even then, you need 9 Range Half-Stars to surpass Overall DEF +7, and 11 to surpass Overall DEF +8) under the simple purpose of keeping defensive power from being mindless. But as I found out from the bot match experience I talked about just now, no, it's expensive because it allows you to survive mob abuse, which barring BLATANT outsmarting by opponents you bloody well should be able to in the first place or the game gets out of hand fast. This is the horror show that division defense without any useful checks brings about: too much emphasis on things that don't create counter play, and too little on things that do. If a dedicated tank is the only one who can hope to approach without taking ridiculous amounts of punishment for doing so, the whole metagame ultimately becomes some campfest anyway, and if anybody else can even approach, then expect the dedicated tank to laugh at anti-armor attacks, which is going to make the game beyond imbalanced. There's no happy medium with simple division defense by its lonesome. And before you repeat that attack powers ignore defense, why should every set be expected to have attack powers? They should be expected to have armor busting, but NOT the same thing every time.

    What could possibly make this farce so necessary is how sadistically cost-effective the mods are. Let me list the mods that provide less benefit than their added Value: Range Half-Stars up to +1 (+1/7 ATK for 6.6+8.3L Value), Speed+ (+1/12 Speed for 1.3+7.9L Value), Overall DEF+ up to 5 (-7L% damage taken for 4.1+10.8L Value), and Health+ (+20 Health compared to the base 222 for 9.4L-0.4 Value). And note that ANY mod in question is assuming it's standalone, which would mean that the weapon would otherwise be a 100V weapon. With accommodating mods that would add up to 200V or more, all bets are off. Let's not even forget that Value only matters for a player if they themselves even die.

    Well, speak of Hades.

    More Value REWARDS you

    Every time you die, the TLG is decreased by an amount equal to your weapon's Value. Basics, right? Well, did you know that every time you die, you also get recharge for each of your powers? And not only that, but the recharge for each of them is equal to your Value as well. Yes, that's right, and it's stupid as it sounds. The whole point of the Value system is to make sure any player is outright punished for trying to abuse powerful weapons. But if a player is getting something for dying with a higher Value weapon, then that starts undoing the very point.

    Certain powers even require only 201 Value to recharge, so loopholing with a simple Value maximum doesn't even work, because even 1 point of Value can become an unwelcome advantage.

    In theory, dying with a given Value multiple times will still provide the same benefit as dying with a lower Value enough times to match the first Value's influence after its own multiplier. Like if you died 4 times with 150 Value, or 6 times with 100 Value, you'd get 600 recharge. Well, that does happen, but here's the problem: with the higher Value weapon, the player is so much more powerful that they both easily deal a lot of damage, enough to cover for the power's own charge, and is the one at far less risk of dying and thus wasting the charge. This means that they can mass buff, deal a lot of damage with ridiculous safety, die once they do, repeat ad nauseum, win by mere attrition.

    And what stupidity would be complete without bringing up more stupidity like with what I said just now.

    Punching bag angel

    Just in case the other two reasons didn't do it for you, here's one more reason to ban mods as a way to check power: they make the angel so incapable of doing anything but barking and being needlessly hostile, which is exactly what should be done to mods by the competitive committee for KIU.

    Value is so pointless once the angel is out. Once he is, the angel's teammates' deaths deal so little damage to the angel's health even with 340 Value weapons, and it can't even KO the angel, just bring him down to minimal health, although that can get him finished by Mega Laser. What's worse? As soon as the angel is dead, the game is over anyway. This allows the 300V guys to team up against the angel with absolutely NO problem, and if any of them die, they'll just recharge powers and hurt the angel even worse.

    This forces the angel to *ALWAYS* run away like a wuss. He hangs around, he's an easy, painted target. Nobody is going to prioritize the angel's two teammates over the angel himself unless the teammates provide particularly fierce defenses. BOTH of them. This is, of course, because there's way too much emphasis on damaging the angel over killing his teammates during the phase, but the mod weapons certainly do nothing to help matters.

    With the 100V restriction, the angel's teammates would be NOWHERE NEAR as strong. They will stop dealing anywhere near as much damage, and if one of the opposing angel's teammates is killed, the momentum will shift in favor of the player's own team because they can start trapping the opposing angel. This promotes both the teammates to bother trying to survive, and the angel to actually attack. Much better than the angel having to run away because the opponents are too %&#*%&#$ strong.

    Seriously, what is up with that?

    Though there are some problems with just banning mods, but they're not terribly hard to address.

    "Drawbacks" and counterarguments

    Mods are part of the game

    You can argue that without mods, there is no weapon customization. And removing the weapon customization cuts a big part of the game, thus cutting on both the strategy and the soul. But let me explain why it's nowhere near as bad as you may think.

    The strategy part has already been deconstructed by talking about the cheap, backwards slippery slope involved. The soul part is the much bigger issue to deconstruct: in fact, I actually dislike the idea of cutting on the weapon customization. I would for example miss on mod-reading, like determining that this 300V guy with Cancer Claws foregoes offensive power in lieu of defensive. Or considering what mods should go on what. But the customization has managed to allow for things like the overabundance of Energy Charge usage. That in and of itself has turned randoms into a soulless breeding ground for overthinking.

    Removing mods wouldn't kill the game's variety either. There's still over 100 weapon types to choose between. There's still over 50 power types to choose between as well, and you can fit several onto your power grid as well. Heck, the power grid itself brings about the idea of grid reading, which is actually more reasonable to do than mod reading and encourages psychological warfare. And the weapon type itself provides an idea of the opponent's key power, such as the Atlas Club requiring Slip Shot to get anything past walls.

    There would still be plenty of strategy, plenty of soul, and plenty of viable play. In fact, there would actually be more of all 3.

    Too little attack power

    This is actually an asanine argument in and of itself, and the fact that so many people would likely make the argument only makes them spoiled snobs. As I pointed out, there's too MUCH attack power going on with mods. It gets to the point where Grid Reading is not a viable way to create counter play, simply because you die way too fast to hope to do anything.

    Oh, but I forget: Hades remarks that "defenses are for the weak." I should apparently take that to heart. Okay. Let me bring up an example in Pokemon. I could give a Gengar Strength, Mega Drain, and Psychic. Probably Night Shade as well. There is absolutely nothing that doesn't take at least normal damage unless I misread a switch, and plenty of types taking super-effective damage as well. You can argue that that setup only considers the elemental RPS, but I actually did this setup <i>IN THE DAYS OF RBY</i>. I would be considering things like STAB at this point (granted, Gengar doesn't have any worthwhile STAB moves in RBY), and I would consider that Gengar has awful Physical ATK. But I talked to a friend on Skype, one who is much more familiar with Pokemon, and he remarks that the setup is actually very good, only suggesting I replace Strength with a move like Ice Beam and that's because of the aforementioned stat setup that Gengar has. That's how easy it is to do super-effective moves, which is why I even got on the topic of Pokemon with him in the first place. It's not something that should be unrewarded, but given that versatility is enough of a defense buster (IMAGINE THAT), it certainly needs to be checked to, for example, prevent FTA issues.

    The point is, it's not healthy for a game to have too much attack power. It will burn itself out fast by favoring speedsters, who if not equalized will make the game into just a body advantage farce. More than a dedicated tank needs to be able to throw off anything equivalent to Pokemon's sweeping, even if doing so would require leveled play, as long as 70% of the game's character choices isn't getting shut down because the game makes them desperate about needing to attack first, see how well that goes.

    But apparently, there's nothing wrong with things like one hit kills. Why? Because the authority says so. So there's nothing wrong with killing an opponent before they could get to attack or anything? No, I'm sorry, but that's BULLYING. If you are abusing OTT attack power so that you don't have to deal with anything, then you are not a good player to begin with. You are simply DEPENDANT. Do we want a metagame that rewards that? NO!

    100V weapons are too hard to get

    Because of the random nature of the game, 100V weapons can only be obtained randomly or bought very randomly. Apparently, nobody would keep them either because of how awful they are. But if anything, it's the mods being powerful, players being greedy for power and generally abusive, and the game rewarding power lusts and cruelty with excessive momentum that cause problems by being a plague on the game.

    If we can even get past how "awful" 100V weapons are because Project Sora thought that off-balance weaknesses could feasibly check on-balance strengths without being more significant, this argument is still a double standard. Min-maxed weapons require dealing with that horribly counterintuitive fusion system. Even worse, you need SPECIFIC weapons to even hope to get what you want. 100V drops/sells are still random, but they're exactly what you're looking for when you are doing so with no need to deal with any Fake Difficulty (other than dealing with Luck Based Missions), which makes them easier to obtain even as drops, and they additionally sell for only 200 Hearts, not exactly hard to get.

    I don't have all 108 types of 100V weapons, but I do have 67 of them. Just always buy any you see in the store and never sell a single one. Sure you still have to jump through hoops, but it's not the horror show that is trying to fuse the zomgprfctwepin.

    The rule would be impossible to enforce

    You realize that you can check the players at the start of the match and see what Value they have, right? If a player cheats, the opponent can gather proof and provide it. And if the weapon has a negative mod, it can be found out at the end of the match too.

    I would just benefit

    Now if I want something, apparently I would just benefit, because I'm the one wanting it.

    You're right I would benefit. Because I've been playing within the developers' vision of game balance when I wasn't being junked on by things as excessive as Shot Range+, Evasion+, or Power ATK+. And you can tell when I can handle things like the Death Predator. This despite the fact that I would rely on things that were already store-bought to begin with. And I don't even die frequently.

    You can argue that it's because I use defensive power mods, but everybody else abuses capped attack power AND Energy Charge to begin with. With OR without me. Let me showcase the math involved:
    *Overall DEF +7 cuts damage by 49%. Overall DEF +8 by 56%.
    *Health +6 adds 120 Health to the innate 222.
    *With those two in mind, we have our formulas for determining effective Health, then dividing it by base Health:
    **Overall DEF +7, Health +6: (222 + 120) * 100/(100 - 49) = 342 * 100/51 = 670 30/51; 34200/11332 = 3 204/11332
    **Overall DEF +8, Health +6: (222 + 120) * 100/(100 - 56) = 342 * 100/44 = 777 12/44; 34200/9768 = 3 4896/9768
    *Then consider what you see on this:
    http://i.imgur.com/YHhHaqk.png

    I can tell you that (Move) +4, 5.5 Stars is enough to make the ATK multiplier exceed 3.5, which means it exceeds Overall DEF +8, Health +6's value of effective Health divided by 222. Given that the multiplier is so big, everything gets wrecked as if they were cannon fodder even before Energy Charge comes into play. Energy Charge, you don't even need 6 stars at all. You only need, what? Only 4 stars? But this isn't overkill enough, oh no. The other included mods are Shot Cancel+, which is failing to be expensive enough when it's being included in this setup, SHOT RANGE+, and why didn't Project Sora check it again?; and Overall DEF-, which does less than it should regardless, but bothering with the math at this point is just a straw on the camel's already broken back.

    Really, I would benefit because I would simply be UNAFFECTED. The only losses I would incur are that I would no longer have a defensive power mod going on (which is not a big loss at this point when the game wants to make mods as a whole OP) and that I could no longer recharge powers whenever I die, which AGAIN occurred infrequently enough as is that it wouldn't make a difference. Sure my competition would be watered down, but it's so riddled with nonsense to begin with.

    I just "suck" at the game

    This is an extension of the above, really, but it deserves its own point. People claim I "suck" at the game because I "can't handle mods." Never mind that the math is painfully borked in the favor of their needing to be banned. Never mind that mods have NO counter play value in the first place. Never mind that the prerequisite is dealing with a horribly counterintuitive system in order to make the weapons needed to stand a chance.

    I'm also hearing beeswax like players beating things like the Death Predator with only half-baked weapons and that's why they should not be banned. Okay, then:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGSG91x4ctA (13:30)
    Tell me you could have actually beaten that Compact Arm. Oh wait. That Compact Arm wrecked the angel's 700 HP so fast his head went spinning. A dedicated tank barely even has that. What makes ANY half-baked weapon user think they'll be able to do anything, PERIOD? Anything but camping is immediately a farce because they'll just die EVEN FASTER. And even if you're miraculously not lying about being able to beat that nonsense, you'd still prove to be an arrogant piece of work when claiming that things like that should be legal.

    Oh, but here's the gem that miraculously proves I'm full of beeswax: Grid Reading. Apparently, it would make the game stale and boring. That's like saying that Chess is boring in timed matches. You are simply assuming that players will make the optimal move every time. That doesn't happen because it requires Grandmaster play to do that within an average time limit per turn. It wouldn't happen here either: KIU, even without mods, is too fast-paced for Grid Reading to be easy to master at all. Every second you expend on dealing with involved math or picturing is one where the opponent can sneak in neutral rapid fire for some free punishment for what the game would deem to be you spacing out. That's the big thing about Grid Reading: it gives players something to aspire to learning, AND it's not a be-all-end-all invincibility tactic, instead promoting psychological warfare. It's certainly even harder to do on low minimum cost powers like Poison Attack (though not impossible; if you spam them, don't expect them to be paranoid), and something like Health Recovery can be used to be tricky, given that the only way its own level can be determined is the duration of a singular healing charge, and then hitting the user stops HR immediately which actually HELPS the HR user by making their HR level harder to determine, which can lead to the HR user being allowed to heal to full and whatever else they want to do with the sudden stop in the opponent's attacking.

    Oh, and guess how I came up with the concept in the first place? Busting an Aries Armor set with Black Hole. Yes, that's right, I used Black Hole to defeat an Aries Armor set. You can argue that Black Hole does NOT work on Aries Armor, and that's true, except Aries Armor has only 1 charge that doesn't last forever, so I just use Super Speed to get away and enjoy an 8+ space advantage that Black Hole covers for. I banked on the guy not having further protection from Black Hole because he was expecting to massacre everything in his path for so much damage to the TLG, and sure enough I was right on the money. This wasn't the most sophisticated setup to be sure, but that is just a warmup for the premise of Grid Reading: on-the-fly detective work.

    If I "suck" because I become somehow dependant on a Difficult But Awesome concept used as a general necessity for given weapon types, then the game is a disgrace for junking on it. And since people may want to think that I do anyway, I am going to issue a challenge to anybody who wants to claim such. Here's my 3DS FC:
    5026-4532-8476
    And here's my Skype ID for quick communication:
    mknightdh

    Here's the conditions of the match:
    *3 Minutes, no Small/Large Arena, no items, no mods
    *Power bans: Random, Warp, Jump Glide
    *Weapon bans: Brawler Claws

    I will use Guardian Orbitars (since, hey, you want to call them junk without Shot Range +), 100V with no mods, and a power grid that has only moderate but not incredible synergy. I can tell you that it has NO powers that need reviewing, so it certainly won't have Quick Charge.

    Benefits of a no above-100V allowed metagame

    Reduced needs for weapon/power bans

    Banning mods would cut down on a LOT of involved problems with things that would otherwise deserve bannage. This is more handy than banning things that have workable balancing factors.

    Let's look at some things that were considered, and were banned over most likely Shot Range+, and see how they fare without mods:
    Weapons:
    *Atlas Club - loops only every 40m of surplus with Homing Boost active, needs Slip Shot (see below)
    *Capricorn Club - shot dies before it can complete a loop
    *Eyetrack Orbitars - shots are slow, loops only every 20m of surplus with HB active (about 148 max damage)
    *Gemini Orbitars - shots are weak even at max range, has only 1 Pierce to begin with
    *Ninja Palm - has power and range issues
    *Predator Cannon - backshot dies off just as it gets near the ground with Shot Range + unavailable, so it can't try its hounding shenanigans
    *Viridi Palm - lacks the range to do anything truly horrible; was only broken because of SR+

    Powers:
    *Aries Armor - Super Speed says hi. 11 space minimum, full row + column, I'm sure you'd also have Super Speed yourself.
    *Bumblebee - yeah, expect to be unable to escape to your right without getting hit, or expect to be Black Hole'd to your left. Full line regardless of level.
    *Libra Sponge - Super Speed, broham. 12 space minimum, doesn't even reduce damage taken.
    *Slip Shot - either one charge AND full line, or full row + column. Without mods' h4x attack power, you're not even going to kill anything within 16 seconds without a dedicated setup.
    *Trade-Off - Aries Armor V0.8, have fun with a Mega Laser when your duration is gone.

    Brawler Claws would still have to be banned, simply because of the neutral rapid's 3 Shot Cancel. A few weapons can't even manage 4 SC on ANY attack to get through, but the real issue is that the neutral rapid does not gimp the Brawler Claws' already good maneuverability, when most weapons have only one attack with 4+ SC, generally the backshot. It manages all the stupidity that people decry Meta Knight as broken for, and NONE of the redeeming balance factors.

    Raptor Claws and Taurus Arm can stand to be reviewed, but shouldn't be nearly as bad. Most of their abuse were with mods that were painfully cost-efficient even by the loose mod standards. Compact Arm is also worth reviewing, since it's capable of a LOT of mid-range abuse regardless, but it can't attack more than 40m away without SR+ and its melee power is junk. Pudgy Palm for similar reasons because it shows signs of doing the same things Compact Arm can and more.

    Warp and Jump Glide would STILL have to be banned, though. They still cost too little for shutting down Black Hole, Super Speed, things like that, without bringing about any counter play. Super Speed itself, as the substitute for Warp, does have a usable flaw: requiring a full line, which means that its mere usage exposes a lack of leveled Slip Shot, allowing for terrain walling. Angelic Missile actually costs space unlike Jump Glide and is harder to use because of the forced falldown at the end, and it immediately stops Playing Dead's duration for good measure.

    Speaking of, Playing Dead would still have to be reviewed, but its stalling potential should be nerfed considerably in the 100V environment. It costs a lot of space too. Not only that, but it still requires more than 200V to recharge, and if you're dying 3 or more times, you're probably losing to begin with. Still, I can see the chance of it managing excessive stalling, but even then, an easy fix would be to increase the time standard by a minute, because 4 PD3 charges is only 64 seconds of stalling, tops, and that requires dying *FIVE* times. Yeah.

    Magnus Club has been decried as OP, but I haven't seen anything that warrants it a ban on its own merits. If it's the Lightweight + Transparency combo that makes it a problem, I'd be for Lightweight being reviewed. That power has proven in the past to be a considerable nuisance, even making it harder to bust Energy Charge + Bumblebee. Lightweight doesn't even require a full line either, so that doesn't help matters.

    Celestial Fireworks is another thing that can cause too many problems. It has plenty of invincibility frames past the IASA frame, which allows it to tack on another action very safely. This can, of course, get annoying, but I don't have a verdict yet, though I'm leaning toward ban. Of course, if CF causes too many problems or outright shut down Black Hole usage with a single charge alone, ban it. (The latter is enough for Warp and Jump Glide to deserve to be banned.)

    Finally, Quick Charge is worth reviewing, though I'd be surprised if it genuinely needs a ban. The big issue, though, is all the benefit it provides for only 4 spaces, so I can see it get out of hand fast by being overcentralizing regardless. But who knows, maybe it will prove to be so God awful at a momentum oomph that it would desperately need Slip Shot/Invisible Shot support. Still, the Pudgy Palm/Quick Charge combo could cause more shenanigans than welcome.

    No more overly free power

    The issue with mods is that there's not even any drawback that kicks in until the person dies. With weapon types, there's a variety of weaknesses to counterbalance things. Powers use up space on the grid in manners that can be too inconvenient unless you can tell me with a straight face that you can fit both Slip Shot 2 and Bumblebee 3 on the grid for example. What are the drawbacks of mods? ALWAYS more Value. See how well that worked. Even in LvD, where it was *ANY* problem worth caring about.

    Without mods, things like Slip Shot are no longer capable of anything ridiculous. And that's a big deal. You don't see other FPSs involve 1HKs/1RKs via attacks that easily hit the opponent AND ignore terrain. If you do, I'm missing something, but I expect it involves a game with VERY garbage balance. Without 1HKing ability, Slip Shot will have a much more difficult time killing anything within 16 seconds. And therein lies the big weakness: leveled Slip Shot for multiple charges can NOT fit with ANY line powers, most notably Bumblebee, which would be used to protect Energy Charge. Bumblebee with Slip Shot will immediately expose Slip Shot's level to be only 1, allowing for walling focus to thwart the singleton Slip Shot charge.

    Things like this is what should be rewarded, not some random luck with the fusion system.

    The angel doesn't suck

    Another mechanic that suffers because of mods' OPness is how severely gimped the angel is. The angel is supposed to be more powerful than regular fighters. This wasn't a problem with low Value people, but the angel has only 700 Health to work with. A 300V guy with a STOREBOUGHT weapon is equal, which is a problem when there's THREE of them--or quite possibly even more sickening--running around EASILY capable of doing too much damage to the angel before he can cause the opposing angel to come out. Even 2 is too much, which for the fact that the Health lost from a teammate death is a pathetic 1/3 of the dead teammate's Value (THAT'S PATHETIC) means that the angel has no choice but to play as a wuss. Apparently, there's an attack power boost too, but if there is, it gets ruined by the angel getting a COMPLETELY RANDOM weapon type.

    With the 100V guys, these problems shouldn't be nearly as horrible. Even though teammate deaths do even less damage, the flow is different. The angel can now fight players because they don't get killed fighting multiple players at once, fixing the problem that they inherently attract ALL of the opposing team's attacks. It would become more useful for the non-angel players to survive as well, simply because when they die, they're still forced to respawn most likely away from their lynchpin ally, additionally encouraging the angel to protect them to keep momentum, since these teammates can still snipe the angel.

    It still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than nothing.

    In closing

    Though the vanilla 100V environment has its share of flaws, the pros outweigh the cons. And it's all because the cons of the vanilla 100V environment has as much relevance as the high Value's penalty of the min-maxed weapons in active randoms. Fancy that.

    With that, I'll close off with the recommended ruleset:
    *400 TLG on LvD, time limit 8 minutes
    *3 minutes in 1v1 (4 minutes if Playing Dead can still stall but not do anything else stupid powerful in general)
    *100V weapons, no negative mods
    *Large Arena and Small Arena banned
    *Power bans: Random, Warp, Jump Glide, Playing Dead?, Lightweight?, Quick Charge?, Celestial Fireworks?
    *Weapon bans: Brawler Claws, Taurus Arm?, Compact Arm?, Pudgy Palm?, Raptor Claws?

    (Note that the question mark power/weapon stuff is actually simply needing review more than anything, but not necessarily deserving to be banned. We'll see. Even if all of the question mark stuff is banned, there's still 49 power types and 101 weapon types to choose from. Not to mention still plenty of ways to protect against Black Hole before you complain.)

    Also, for those who think that Grid Reading would do nothing to help the game's balance:




    I rest my case.

    And finally, just in case you missed the challenge I issued to any nonbelievers, here's the specs:
    My 3DS FC: 5026-4532-8476
    My Skype ID: mknightdh
    Conditions:
    *3 Minutes, no Small/Large Arena, no items, no mods
    *Power bans: Random, Warp, Jump Glide
    *Weapon bans: Brawler Claws
    My weapon: Guardian Orbitars, power set has only moderate synergy

  3. #6453
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    The sad thing is you took time to write all that.

    So, I completed all chapters on intensity 9.0 recently then my game reset itself because of dirt or something. Talk about unlucky.
    If I can set up Homepass I want you all to give me stuff.


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  4. #6454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solpoke View Post
    So, I completed all chapters on intensity 9.0 recently then my game reset itself because of dirt or something. Talk about unlucky.
    If I can set up Homepass I want you all to give me stuff.
    Oh jeez, that's awful 0_0

    Are you gonna start over?

  5. #6455
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    Are Magnus Clubs still cool?

    I can't remember.

  6. #6456
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    You know, when I used to play online, I would just pick a weapon I suck at, like a staff weapon. I had really good Pandora Claws, but I felt that they were just too good, you know what I mean. I usually get beaten badly with a staff, but I remember when I shot two people at once with a Scorpio Staff. Kills two birds with one stone. Those were good times.

    Hoenn has disappointed.

    P.S. I get tired of complaints from great games.
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  7. #6457
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    Pandies were fun with dcf and shot homing, I found. You're all "pew pew pew" while running around, and you smack 'em like that.

    Staves, man. I could never get into those.

  8. #6458
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    Staves, man. I could never get into those.
    I did because I knew I was terrible at them, and I wanted to become better.

    And because I am in a random mood, here's a quote warp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy/Quote Warp
    Panties were fun with dcf and shot homing, I found. You're all "pew pew pew" while running around, and you smack 'em like that.

    Hoenn has disappointed.

    P.S. I get tired of complaints from great games.
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  9. #6459
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    Mater Knight DH, I think you are completely correct. Well, not as far as single player is concerned, but mods really mess over competitive play. Personally, I think there needs to be preset weapons for Multi Player. This would help in balancing and help put everyone on equal grounds while keeping Hade's Heart and the Great Sacred Treasure from being completely unstoppable. When I play against those Dash Charge Shot +4 Magnus Clubs in multi player, I just grab Eyetrack Orbitars and hit Shot Homing/Quick Charge powers and just spam charge shots. Pretty much nothing could hold up to those. I've even overwhelmed a pair of Guardian Orbitars before, and in all honestly, that's completely boring. The eyetrack orbitar I'm speaking of in particular, btw, have shot homing/range boost by default.

    But we don't even know if they will actually continue the series. I guess we'll just have to wait.

    I've considered trying to make competitive restrictions myself. Only angles get to use powers, no Dash Charge Shots or Melee Combo mods, no more then 2 1/2 star weapons, ect, but it's just so much easier to go on random battles then to join a competitive community. And then convincing everyone to follow those rules...

    Black Hole should be banned. Way to easy to beat up on the angle that way.
    Last edited by Zachmac; 15th December 2013 at 3:14 AM.
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  10. #6460

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    Thank you, though I do have to disagree on a few points.

    Single player is actually plagued with power creep. If you don't believe me, try doing Chapter 12 on 9.0 with a vanilla 100V weapon, or better yet, a vanilla 100V club. Trust me: you won't be able to kill the Reset Bomb in time. I couldn't even get close to doing so. And this isn't the only example. Another particular standout example is in Chapter 20, involving that fight with the Juggernaut AND Strongarm simultaneously, right before Palutena. Dodging the Juggernaut's bullets is still the farce it is, and unfortunately, without mods, BOTH nuisances are painfully durable. Here's an idea of how durable: the Skyscraper Club can barely 4HK the Strongarm, who by the way is replaced with ANOTHER one, and it can't even 5HK the Juggernaut. Keep in mind that the Skyscraper Club deals more damage than any other weapon type within 50m before involving any attack power changes. I would like to know how this fight could have come from a functioning human being, because it certainly makes you suffer for daring to even suggest not overpowering yourself. I so would like to see HideOfBeast, who has dealt with Mega Man X6, do a minimalist run of KIU. He'll soon be wishing he was dealing with Blaze freaking Heatnix.

    If they continue the series, they need to iron out the concepts wrecked by the flaws that plague the game. The power system needs more emphasis in general, but if anything, mods need to be nerfed to avoid power creep in the power system itself.

    I'd rather just ban mods, period, along with a few bans but it shouldn't become a ridiculous amount of them. With vanilla 100V weapons, powers stop recharging anywhere near as fast, which cuts down on the angel's problem of being unable to recharge powers too: it's still there, but it's relatively MUCH less of a problem.

    Black Hole needs Grid Reading to work, such that it's why Grid Reading is around in the first place, because it has plenty of counters. Let's list them:
    *Jump Glide (which it shouldn't, ban it)
    *Warp (which is too efficient, ban it)
    *Super Speed (KB immunity, escape)
    *Angelic Missile? (not sure, but I expect it uses KB immunity to shut down BH)
    *Reflect Barrier (soft counter, but it does stop projectile attacks)
    *Libra Sponge (KB immunity)
    *Interference (soft counter, but does stop the BH casting, may need to be reviewed for its low cost)
    *Virus (wrecks close range combat)
    *Super Armor (KB immunity)
    *Brief Invincibility (KB immunity, damage immunity)
    *Aries Armor (KB immunity)
    *Trade Off (KB immunity, damage immunity at the cost of having 1 HP left)
    *Bumblebee (unreliable, but forces BH user to aim properly)
    *Counter (KB immunity)
    *Playing Dead (KB immunity, damage immunity)
    *Pisces Heal (works against singleton tempo attacks)

    That's 12 powers, not counting Jump Glide (ban), Warp (ban), Angelic Missile (unsure), or Interference (review, potential ban). Given all the room on the grid, you should always have at least one of the (legal) protection powers. Add in that Grid Reading itself can be thrown off by low minimum cost powers or something like Health Recovery, and Black Hole has no need to be illegal. If anything has to be banned among the powers, it would be things that make Black Hole USELESS as a tag power. Black Hole is needed to balance things, and the moment it starts failing is the moment things get out of hand.
    Last edited by Master Knight DH; 15th December 2013 at 8:23 PM.

  11. #6461
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    Single player is actually plagued with power creep.
    Alright, there are one or two instances in the game where it gets pretty difficult. But if you're playing at 9.0 intensity, chances are you're going to have a powerful weapon of some kind at your disposal, especially in the later chapters. You may be unable to stop the reset bomb with certain weapons...but why would you not be using a strong one? And by strong, I'm referring to a weapon with at least 5 stars in range or melee. The reset bomb shouldn't be a problem. Unless you have a club of course, I'll admit it's near impossible to beat that even with a powerful club...

    There are occasions where it gets ridiculous, like in Paluntena's Temple you mentioned, but it's not that common, and with transparency around, it's easy to dodge around those parts. And besides that, they're mostly later chapters which are generally supposed to be harder.

    I still think Black Hole would deserve a ban. It "balances" things you say, but it is just one of the many factors creating angles into a punching bag. It also makes it ridiculously easy to take out a large group at once when paired with the proper weapon(guardian orbitars, black club, ect). I've used it and I've fallen victim to it both and there is no way I can say it's balanced.

    Could you list a way to counter it without using a power of your own?
    Venemo Oscuridad - 6 Battles
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  12. #6462

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    Another thing I would need to Bold response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachmac View Post
    Alright, there are one or two instances in the game where it gets pretty difficult. But if you're playing at 9.0 intensity, chances are you're going to have a powerful weapon of some kind at your disposal, especially in the later chapters.
    Hence the mention of the power creep.

    You may be unable to stop the reset bomb with certain weapons...but why would you not be using a strong one? And by strong, I'm referring to a weapon with at least 5 stars in range or melee. The reset bomb shouldn't be a problem. Unless you have a club of course, I'll admit it's near impossible to beat that even with a powerful club...
    Yeah, it's just an imbalance.

    There are occasions where it gets ridiculous, like in Paluntena's Temple you mentioned, but it's not that common, and with transparency around, it's easy to dodge around those parts. And besides that, they're mostly later chapters which are generally supposed to be harder.
    Wouldn't be that bad, but when the game has to resort to being cheap to be difficult, that's when I take issue.

    I still think Black Hole would deserve a ban. It "balances" things you say, but it is just one of the many factors creating angles into a punching bag.
    How so? Even the Skyscraper Club can't 4HK the angel without attack boosting and it deals more damage in a single attack than any other weapon does within 50 meters. Even worse, Black Hole takes more than 200V worth of deaths for a single charge to come back, so you can't use it willy-nilly either.

    It also makes it ridiculously easy to take out a large group at once when paired with the proper weapon(guardian orbitars, black club, ect).
    Which is simply clump punishment. In a game where spreading out actually is able to help. This ain't Advance Wars. Besides, Black Hole is designed to be synergetic with those weapons.
    I've used it and I've fallen victim to it both and there is no way I can say it's balanced.

    Could you list a way to counter it without using a power of your own?
    That's the big thing to note about BH: you can't counter it for free. It's designed to shut down kiting by forcing opponents to try to kill the user fast rather than play it safe and let automatic offense do all the work. If you could counter it for free, it wouldn't work well at all in its job, because it's still a power that has its own price, and power guys would be back to square one.

    And meanwhile, here's another something I'm going to talk about: my power set for the Skyscraper Club is Super Armor 2, Counter 1, Super Speed 2, Mega Laser 2, Black Hole 1, and Effect Recovery 1. Now, there is this power called Power Thief, which is a buff where if you successfully hit an opponent with a melee attack with it active, it will steal 1 charge of a random power of theirs from them. Now what is stolen is random, but it's determined that the chance of any given power being stolen is more or less the percentage of the used space that the power uses, which means that it has a good chance to take Trade Off 1 over Sky Jump 4 if given the chance. Note that Super Armor 2, Counter 1, Super Speed 2, and Black Hole 1 in total use 25 spaces of the maximum of 36. I'll let this sink in, granted you remember that Power Thief still requires melee attacks to work.

    There's bound to be more things like that to get tricky against Black Hole usage, by the way. As long as the counter play is working on both sides, there shouldn't be any problems.

  13. #6463
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    I want this game, how would I know if I'll like it? Thanks.

  14. #6464
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    Are you right handed? Then you'll like it.

  15. #6465
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    Do you like Star Foxian on-rails shooters and third-person shooters with customizable weaponry and online multiplayer?

    If not, give it a shot anyway; it may turn you on to them.

  16. #6466
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    Quote Originally Posted by poix_the_yak View Post
    Are you right handed? Then you'll like it.
    I'm left handed, but I just use the CPP to play it. I also have it for MGS3D.

    Hoenn has disappointed.

    P.S. I get tired of complaints from great games.
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  17. #6467
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    Any one here like to do online battles?

    I'm a fairly competent player with a number of high grade weapons (all hovering around 300)
    To lack fear is stupidity, to face it is bravery.

  18. #6468
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    I personally prefer the story mode, due to the funny lines. sure they're cheesy but I still love them nonetheless. Just gonna say a few.

    "Pit: G-FORCE.... IN MY FACE!!!"

    "Hades: Looks like the Chariot Master's played Donkey Kong."

    "Pit: Those Komaytos look like little Metroids."

    "Pit: You didn't even put your heart into it!
    And I'm talking to myself again..."

    "P:HADES! H:PIT! P:HADES! H:PIT! P:HADES! H:PIT! P:HADES! H:Ha-Tchoo!
    P:Bless you. But anyways...
    Both:NOW IT'S REALLY ON!"
    Sonic's the name, speed's my game!

  19. #6469
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    Holy cow, the thread is still alive :O
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  20. #6470
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    Yeah, sort of!

    I actually have a hankering for some online multiplayer right now. Probably won't happen since I need to study for finals, but I might be on later today.

  21. #6471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphon View Post
    Any one here like to do online battles?

    I'm a fairly competent player with a number of high grade weapons (all hovering around 300)
    I really love the multiplayer, but it's also very broken. Black Hole, Explosive Flame, Trade Off, and a plethora of possible ways to make weapons that 1-shot fighters. I usually use weapons with less then 250 value, and only bring out my OP ones when I want to get revenge on someone who does use all that Dash Charge Shot +4 junk. Then I change multiplayer rooms.
    Venemo Oscuridad - 6 Battles
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  22. #6472

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    Black Hole isn't broken. There's plenty of ways to protect against it, and the Interference Hole combo even has painful amount of startup. It's just a matter of managing your powers so that:
    *You don't get BH-h4xed early.
    *You have workable anti-armor for any feasible speed kills.

    If anything, BH allows low range weapons like the Skyscraper Club to force opponents to stay put where they can't get away, which actually adds to the balance when such things have extreme trouble getting close otherwise.

    Explosive Flame broken? I have to scoff at that. It's expensive and has limited range. Maybe with Power ATK+ does it become ridiculous, but otherwise, it punishes people who get cornered or deters people from getting close. Don't rely on it for the latter because it doesn't even hinder Super Armor.

    Trade-Off, I can see the annoyance. It's a mercy that Super Speed is inexpensive per charge, but if you don't go with that, you'd still have to figure out how to wall TO or it will give you no shortage of problems. However, if you do wall it, the opponent will have only 1 HP left. Their survival becomes incredibly unlikely.

    Mods in general are an issue unto themselves. It's telling when Overall DEF+, the most expensive mod in the game, is still too cost effective. Let me put this out there: it should be expensive ONLY to keep it from being mindless survival. It should NOT be needed to survive ANY mob abuse AT ALL. And it certainly should NOT make anti-armor attacks garbage. If you get hit by an anti-armor attack, I don't care what your defenses are, because you got hit by a harder to use attack and you should be penalized for it. Even if you're using an armor setup, you should be able to outmaneuver the attack reliably to begin with.

    But, of course, since we would want to disregard that idiocy, I'll just point out that even if we ignore that attack powers ignore DEF mods, Overall DEF+/Health+ can be outpaced anyway by mere attack power boosts. 5 Stars/(Move)+4 multiplies attack power by ~3.57x, which outpaces Overall DEF+8/Health+6's effective HP multiplier of ~3.5x. And then there's enough room to add in even more stupidity like Evasion+, Shot Range+, Weaken+ (which screams free Energy Charge if you're wondering, because EC isn't freaking 8 spaces minimum), you get the idea.

    Actually, yeah, I can see why Dash Charge Shot+ has stupidity involved. Although its melee counterpart Melee Combo+ is still more mindless and the melee offense mods cost LESS than the range ones. However, Shot Range+ is what deserves to be blamed, surprise surprise. Let's look at the stupidity involved with Shot Range+ if you don't follow:
    *Capricorn Club's counterbalance to its strengths is an awful distance multiplier, but Shot Range+ neuters that.
    *UNMANAGEABLE LOOPING. Looping works as the sniper weapons' close range incentive and a way to gut overreliance on mid range combat. It's broken when it HUMILIATES MID RANGE COMBAT.
    *Predator Cannon's undodgeable backshot. It forces people to carry something like Super Armor just to stand a chance. And believe me: without SR+, the backshot actually starts being dodgeable even with capped homing.
    *Weapons like Viridi Palm which are meant to have bad range in exchange for high effectiveness within their limited range become mid range horror shows.
    *It makes certain weapons redundant. The Earthmaul Club for example has weaknesses designed to prevent it from being top notch range abuse. But weapons that suddenly need only 35 Value to match its range don't have any such weaknesses.
    *IT'S OVERCENTRALIZING. If you need it to bust kiting, either you are thinking that you beat kiting by abusing a tool that also helps kiting, or the game simply did not check kiting properly.

    Yeah, I had to put this out there.
    Last edited by Master Knight DH; 20th January 2014 at 1:01 AM.

  23. #6473
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    If anything, BH allows low range weapons like the Skyscraper Club to force opponents to stay put where they can't get away, which actually adds to the balance when such things have extreme trouble getting close otherwise.
    I'd argue that the difficulty getting close is the balance for those weapons.
    Explosive Flame broken? I have to scoff at that. It's expensive and has limited range. Maybe with Power ATK+ does it become ridiculous, but otherwise, it punishes people who get cornered or deters people from getting close. Don't rely on it for the latter because it doesn't even hinder Super Armor.
    And anyone who is caught up with it is immobilized for you to throw your powerful Magnus Club or Guardian Orbitars for free hits. I actually find it quite easy to hit a target with Explosive Flame, despite it's relatively poor range, it's rather wide and opponents don't have any time to react if you're already close enough.
    Mods in general are an issue unto themselves.
    ...This I can agree with.
    Actually, yeah, I can see why Dash Charge Shot+ has stupidity involved. Although its melee counterpart Melee Combo+ is still more mindless and the melee offense mods cost LESS than the range ones. However, Shot Range+ is what deserves to be blamed, surprise surprise. Let's look at the stupidity involved with Shot Range+ if you don't follow:
    And I agree with all of these as well.

    Now that I think about it, the problem probably lies in the variety. Imagine an Aquarius blade with a freezing modifier and a the status elongating one, whatever it was called. Today I fought an Ogre Club with +4 walking speed that just went crazy when paired up with some powers. I couldn't really do much to fight back or run away when I became Dark Pit, and I was equipped with a Magnus Club when I became him. And then there is Eyetrack Orbitars + Shot Homing, Laser/Flintlock Staff + that instant aim skill....

    Aside from raw power, I'm starting to think it's nothing specific that's OP, besides some things like Melee Combo +, but instead the combinations you can come up with. Perhaps if the multiplayer had no mods or powers, there would be far, far less broken.

    But in the end, I do agree with you that mods are the most broken part of the game. When I face a broken weapon, it is almost always tied to the weapons mod first, and powers second.
    Last edited by Zachmac; 22nd January 2014 at 5:04 AM.

  24. #6474

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    I'm going to have to Bold my responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachmac View Post
    I'd argue that the difficulty getting close is the balance for those weapons.
    Actually, that's true. The problem is when the opponent can turn the matchup into an auto-win by a 5YO's tactic. Black Hole fixes that without being so threatening in the early game when the opponent's powers are generally unknown.

    And anyone who is caught up with it is immobilized for you to throw your powerful Magnus Club or Guardian Orbitars for free hits. I actually find it quite easy to hit a target with Explosive Flame, despite it's relatively poor range, it's rather wide and opponents don't have any time to react if you're already close enough....
    Those two weapons are close range though. So is Explosive Flame. Black Hole is a cleaner catch for less space.

    This I can agree with.And I agree with all of these as well.
    Thank you.

    Now that I think about it, the problem probably lies in the variety. Imagine an Aquarius blade with a freezing modifier and a the status elongating one, whatever it was called. Today I fought an Ogre Club with +4 walking speed that just went crazy when paired up with some powers. I couldn't really do much to fight back or run away when I became Dark Pit, and I was equipped with a Magnus Club when I became him. And then there is Eyetrack Orbitars + Shot Homing, Laser/Flintlock Staff + that instant aim skill....
    Autoreticle?

    Anyway, I wouldn't call the simple variety a problem. I could buy dealing with an Ogre Club with Speed+ mods being balanced if Speed+ mods weren't so cost-effective for their versatility. There are some things to note in other combinations, like an Autoreticle staff is likely to have Slip Shot, and only one of those two powers can be leveled on the same set. But honestly, when things like Weaken+ are not expensive enough when their more temporary power equivalents still use decent space on the grid, assuming they do that, problems arise fast.


    Aside from raw power, I'm starting to think it's nothing specific that's OP, besides some things like Melee Combo +, but instead the combinations you can come up with.
    I wouldn't call combinations in and of themselves OP as long as they don't detract from the counter play. It's often the individual facets that create problems. Melee Combo+ for example is effectively cheaper Melee Stars because 90% of your melee attacks are combos.

    Perhaps if the multiplayer had no mods or powers, there would be far, far less broken.
    Powers in general are fine, actually. With statuses forced onto powers thus expending precious grid space, fewer people would need to pack Effect Recovery. And then there's Grid Reading. That's self-explanatory.

    But in the end, I do agree with you that mods are the most broken part of the game. When I face a broken weapon, it is almost always tied to the weapons mod first, and powers second.
    Yeah, banning mods would force weapons like Gemini Orbitars to care that they deal pitiful base damage until they use either Energy Charge, Libra Sponge, or Trade-Off, all of which are expensive.

  25. #6475
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    i'm looking for a differnet weapon,something that does the same thing,but makes the game harder,and i consider myself very lucky to have the claws i do,thanks sol for telling me to get artillary claws
    but for the weapon:
    artillary claws
    range:4
    melee:3.5
    shot defence +1
    weakening +2
    standing ch. shot +1
    standing cont. fire +4
    so is there anything i can use that plays with a simaler style,but aren't as stong?
    do the shuckle sweep
    white 2 champion/ white champion/second white 2 game champion/3rd white 2 champion/4th planned white 2 champion
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