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Thread: How would you handle an "Ash losing the League" loss?

  1. #1
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    Default How would you handle an "Ash losing the League" loss?

    Given that the series never lets Ash win a league, how would you handle the loss such that there is minimal salt?

    So far we've had:

    Team Rocket damaging Ash before his fight with Ritchie, thus nerfing him severely (Kanto)

    Some guy introduced shortly before the League, whose main purpose relative to the show is to make Ash lose (Johto - Harrison, Hoenn - Tyson, Sinnoh - Tobias,
    Unova - Cameron)

    To expand on some of these:

    Tobias's appearance with Darkrai essentially made it so that we would know Ash will lose beforehand but they made his loss more of going down in a blaze of glory

    Cameron was a guy who failed to even do the basics in Pokemon yet still beat Ash

    And now we have a character who has been previously introduced to us and built up who defeats Ash (Kalos - Alain) in a battle which could have gone any way, unlike the others where it was somewhat foreshadowed that he wouldn't win simply based on the timing of the battle (Top 8 vs Finals).

    Also, prior to Ash's loss against Sawyer, it was a proposed idea that Ash would lose to Sawyer at the league given him curbstomping Sawyer all the time until his loss.

    Given that a loss will always make people salty, which one of the losses generated the least salt, and how would you, if you are a writer, handle an "Ash lose the league" situation?
    Last edited by doofinc; 6th November 2016 at 1:01 AM.

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    I would handle it like this.

    *fake cough* oh he lost. Ok. Well time to find the funniest video on YouTube ever.

    Tho that's my reaction after seeing just about every episode of the anime, so it might be comfort or it might just be my nonchalance to Ash.

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    Make snarky remarks. Ash lost a league. Water is wet. The sun is hot. The Pope is catholic. That is how losing is such a massive part of his journey.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

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    All the league losses except for Cameron were 'acceptable'. Ash either lost to better competition every time and/or advanced one round further. The fact that he reached the Kalos League finals and lost set precedent for him to win next time.

    Honestly, if S&M does have a league, and Ash doesn't win, then honestly there's no justification for it this time.

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    I think my post was not worded clearly enough. I meant if you were a writer, how would you handle an ash losing the league situation

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    Oh.

    I would probably do something similar to the Alain thing (developed character who has already proven to be strong), only earlier in the league so people aren't as hope-crushed and salty as Kalos.

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    i mean 3 out of the 6 people ash lost to ended up becoming league champions, so their battles are respectable.

    first one was mostly tr's fault, but i dont think it would make any sense regardless for ash to progress too far in that one since he bs'd half his badges that season.
    unova league........yeah idek. plot armor was strong with that one.
    johto league was good because ash faced a pokemon from the next gen and even though he lost, he tired out his opponent so much that they lost in the very next round.

    it would be interesting to see ash lose in the first round of a league for once just to wake him up and not let him be so damn calm and happy after every time he loses.

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    If I was a writer, I'd make it so that Satoshi would just quit seeking to become a Pokemon Master since Satoshi has lost so many Pokemon Leagues in the past, and it's getting him nowhere. He needs to have an epiphany and realize that he's not cut-out for that goal. It's better if he faces the facts and stops beating around the bush.

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    My favorite of the ones in the past was Tobias for sure. It was more than just introducing a one-off character right before the league, they introduced an unstoppable force of nature, so strong, that even being able to take only two of his Pokemon was a major accomplishment. It was a great way for Ash to lose, but also have his own personal victory.

    That being said, that strategy only really works once. So for the future, the Alain route is without a doubt the best way. I'm probably one of the only people you;ll ever hear saying this, but I don't mind Ash losing, as long as the loss is deserved. His battle against Cameron is an example of a loss that wasn't deserved. Alain was the exact opposite of Cameron. Not only was he extremely powerful, but he got the chance to know him first, making it so we could root for him as well as Ash in their final battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by datdimfb View Post
    If I was a writer, I'd make it so that Satoshi would just quit seeking to become a Pokemon Master since Satoshi has lost so many Pokemon Leagues in the past, and it's getting him nowhere. He needs to have an epiphany and realize that he's not cut-out for that goal. It's better if he faces the facts and stops beating around the bush.
    So he should give up on his dream because he failed a couple of times? Are you serious? You're saying this as if it's easy to become a Pokemon Master. It's far from an easy thing to become a master of anything. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again"? That's how you become a master, is never giving up just because you failed. He's not "beating around the bush," he's persevering so that one day, likely not anytime soon, he may achieve his dreams.

    Join Ash and Pikachu as they travel to the Tenno Region, a region known for its advanced space program. Along their way towards the Tenno League and becoming a Pokémon Master they'll encounter new Pokémon, new enemies, such as the evil Team Planetary, and, of course, a certain trio of Team Rocket members, along with friends new and old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    My favorite of the ones in the past was Tobias for sure. It was more than just introducing a one-off character right before the league, they introduced an unstoppable force of nature, so strong, that even being able to take only two of his Pokemon was a major accomplishment. It was a great way for Ash to lose, but also have his own personal victory.
    Personally I found Tobias to be a somewhat poorly drafted and one dimensional character with unrealistic abilities. To me it came across a quite a cheap way of pushing Ash out the league saved only by the fact that he did get a little further with Tobias's team than anyone else. It's no more of a personal victory than any of the other matches where it came the last two Pokémon on the field.

    Cameron's battles wasn't great but I'm not that upset about it. I agree it was designed as a comical relief ending to the Unova League that probably irritated a lot of fans given Ash lost to an opponent one Pokémon down. That being said there's nothing to suggest it was undeserved in it's context. Cameron commanded Samurott, Hydriegon and Lucario. There's nothing to suggest he was a poor trainer, and the Marlon and Biannca battles suggested otherwise - he was shown to have a degree of skill and competence prior to going up against Ash. Does a character worthy of beating Ash have to have a archetypal serious personality like Alain or Tyson. Are having a scatterbrained or hyperactive personality and being a competent trainer mutually exclusive. Even though Ash acts a little bit more mature in XY than BW he still spent the first two episodes acting childishly, for instance running around Santalune City without any idea where the gym was. It's also not uncommon for Shonen style anime to have protagonists whom have a childish side. Even Jessie from Team Rocket, a comic relief character got to the semi finals of the Sinnoh Grand Festival. It wasn't a great ending to Unova but I actually don't think it was terrible.

    I'm in two minds about Alain. He's actually harder to like than Cameron because of his colder personality and he's marred by the fact that he's deeply involved with Lysander and Team Flare - something he never really receives restitution for given he switches sides at the last minute. We certainly got to know him more but not necessarily in a positive light. He pushed Marin away rather cruelly (and indirectly at least was responsible for what happened to Chespie) and helped Alaina and Mable take down Z2. There's also something off about entering the league merely to battle Ash - 1. It's borderline stalking behaviour, 2. It's hard to see how he could have won all 8 badges so quickly when Ash has been travelling for months and 3. It leaves so much to chance - Alain had no guarantee he would have faced Ash in the finals. Ash could have been eliminated before he was paired with Alain. Alain could have simply challenged Ash to a battle if he was so keen to face him again. Alain is saved by his more hidden caring side - It's evident he does care a lot for Marin and Sycamore.

    There's no doubt however that Alain was stronger than Ash so him winning the leagues not a problem. In that regard he's no different to Tyson, Harrison and perhaps to a lesser extent Cameron. They were all shown to be passionate, competent and powerful trainers. The only difference is Alain is that his character had more backstory and rather than simply showing up for the league then departing as the other characters did he's woven into the plot more. That's quite different and makes the show more interesting than previous leagues that have just been a myriad of battles.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 6th November 2016 at 7:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    Personally I found Tobias to be a somewhat poorly drafted and one dimensional character with unrealistic abilities. To me it came across a quite a cheap way of pushing Ash out the league saved only by the fact that he did get a little further with Tobias's team than anyone else. It's no more of a personal victory than any of the other matches where it came the last two Pokémon on the field.
    You are correct, he wasn't much of a character at all, but that's why I called him a force of nature. He's a unique situation in that, at least for me, he can be forgiven for his lack of character traits, because that wasn't what he was there to be. He was a flat character because the writers had no intention of making him a character. Of course, while that works great once, if repeated it loses part of what makes it special. If at some point in the future we got a Tobias 2.0, I wouldn't be as thrilled about it.

    Cameron's battles wasn't great but I'm not that upset about it. I agree it was designed as a comical relief ending to the Unova League that probably irritated a lot of fans given Ash lost to an opponent one Pokémon down. That being said there's nothing to suggest it was undeserved in it's context. Cameron commanded Samurott, Hydriegon and Lucario. There's nothing to suggest he was a poor trainer, and the Marlon and Biannca battles suggested otherwise - he was shown to have a degree of skill and competence prior to going up against Ash. Does a character worthy of beating Ash have to have a archetypal serious personality like Alain or Tyson. Are having a scatterbrained or hyperactive personality and being a competent trainer mutually exclusive. Even though Ash acts a little bit more mature in XY than BW he still spent the first two episodes acting childishly, for instance running around Santalune City without any idea where the gym was. It's also not uncommon for Shonen style anime to have protagonists whom have a childish side. Even Jessie from Team Rocket, a comic relief character got to the semi finals of the Sinnoh Grand Festival. It wasn't a great ending to Unova but I actually don't think it was terrible.
    Yeah, he did have good Pokemon, as proven by the fact that he was able to beat Ash, and technically, in the end, him beating Ash does make him the stronger trainer. That being said, while he has these powerful Pokemon, he really shows no good reason as to why he has them. While I have nothing wrong with comic relief characters, for example, I love Team Rocket, Cameron was such an extreme comic relief character that it made him seem incompetent, and when someone who seems incompetent defeats the main character, something is amiss.

    Join Ash and Pikachu as they travel to the Tenno Region, a region known for its advanced space program. Along their way towards the Tenno League and becoming a Pokémon Master they'll encounter new Pokémon, new enemies, such as the evil Team Planetary, and, of course, a certain trio of Team Rocket members, along with friends new and old.
    Check it out!

    For news, reviews, info on my games Luna, Terra, and Sol Versions, the basis of Cosmic Quest, Special Episodes, and features like a Tenno Region Pokédex listing my custom Pokémon, including pictures, visit the Pokémon Cosmic Quest Official Website. Join us as we celebrate Ash's 20th 10th Birthday!

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    For Ash and cameron i would reverse it it would be funny if ash lost to cameron because he overconfident cause cameron is idiot and thought that he would beat cameron with half of his team so he only brought 3 and thre result loss due lucario tie to pikachu and cameron have only one pokemon left ( i think it would be funny ala Elesa Gym imo chuckle)
    For Ash and Alain it would be better if Ash Greninja Beat that stuzard and loss due exhaustion to bisharp after loss it form that would be acceptable imo
    For Ash vs Ritchie i'm gonna go manga route where Ash Charizard Almost killed RItchie Charizard due his disobidience
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    So far the only losses I feel were fair and didn't demean Ash were Morrison and Tyson
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedJirachi View Post
    So far the only losses I feel were fair and didn't demean Ash were Morrison and Tyson
    What about Harrison? He and Ash were virtually tied in the Silver Conference up until the last second of their match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedJirachi View Post
    So far the only losses I feel were fair and didn't demean Ash were Morrison and Tyson
    I'm honestly curious, what about his loss to Alain was unfair and/or demeaning? There was an entire series of special episodes that where pretty much solely dedicated to demonstrating how powerful Alain is. He even managed to become the first trainer to ever defeat a member of the Elite Four on-screen. Ash doing as well as he did against Alain showed some great strength, so it's definitely not demeaning, and I can't figure out what about it was unfair. The battle seemed very fair to me. I would ask the same about Tobias, but I assume you're just considering him having Legendary Pokemon "unfair."

    Also, I think you meant Harrison, not Morrison. I make the same mistake too often.

    Join Ash and Pikachu as they travel to the Tenno Region, a region known for its advanced space program. Along their way towards the Tenno League and becoming a Pokémon Master they'll encounter new Pokémon, new enemies, such as the evil Team Planetary, and, of course, a certain trio of Team Rocket members, along with friends new and old.
    Check it out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedJirachi View Post
    So far the only losses I feel were fair and didn't demean Ash were Morrison and Tyson
    It's arguable that the Tobias and Ritchie battle's weren't fair. Tobias had a huge advantage due to the use of overpowered legendaries. Ritchie had an unfair advantage due to Ash having to face him after escaping Team Rocket and because of Charizard's disobedience. The other losses seemed relatively fair. There was no evidence of any disproportionate advantage on the part of Cameron or Alain. They won because they were better trainers and that was consistent with their portrayal throughout. Alain was battling and beating other Mega Evolution users including Malva prior to entering the league. Cameron had shown he was skilled by beating Marlon and Bianca. They both had powerful fully evolved Pokémon on their teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    Yeah, he did have good Pokemon, as proven by the fact that he was able to beat Ash, and technically, in the end, him beating Ash does make him the stronger trainer. That being said, while he has these powerful Pokemon, he really shows no good reason as to why he has them. While I have nothing wrong with comic relief characters, for example, I love Team Rocket, Cameron was such an extreme comic relief character that it made him seem incompetent, and when someone who seems incompetent defeats the main character, something is amiss.
    In fairness it's not shown why any of the trainer who have beaten Ash at the league have any of their partners - except Tyson's Meowth who had a backstory. The glaring omission is probably Tobias given the series cannon makes having legendaries so unlikely. Alain too seemingly pulled 5 powerful Pokémon out of nowhere including two Pseudo legendariess, Tyranitar and Metagross, considering he only ever used Charizard in the Mega Evolution specials, even when facing Rayquaza when it would have been thought he would have needed all the help he could get or against Seibold where Charizard had a clear disadvantage. I don't think it really needed to say why - Cameron's Team were all Unova Pokémon so it's not a huge stretch to imagine him capturing them.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 7th November 2016 at 10:18 AM.

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    skip ritchie and tobias, it just looks like fighting roarke and setdef final headquarter (sure to dead battle)

    but i treat ash's loses as part of his development

    gradually but sure we are seen right if ash finally can become medicore player..

    it teaches us about development too somehow.. we arent pop n become hero. but gradually will become best that nobody ever was

    first time he will cry, that because he isnt matured yet

    second he will try not to cry. means hes gradually matured and know what should he do

    and then try again. he realized that he isnt strong enough. proceed from scratch to learn pokemon training on other point of view in BW.

    when you realize that his battle mechs on XY and BW is not far different. you just realized that ash is learn from his past mistakes.

    wulfric trampled his pride. thats the time when he become unbeatable until alan defeat him
    in that time. he realized that being strong isnt enough. so this might be the reason why he want to enroll the school. since his adventure didnt giving him the best answer of what should he do for become pokemon master
    Last edited by wandiong; 7th November 2016 at 10:20 AM.

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    and i guess we need someone to trample his pride badly again like wulfric do in order to trigger his badass side

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    In fairness it's not shown why any of the trainer who have beaten Ash at the league have any of their partners - except Tyson's Meowth who had a backstory. The glaring omission is probably Tobias given the series cannon makes having legendaries so unlikely. Alain too seemingly pulled 5 powerful Pokémon out of nowhere including two Pseudo legendariess, Tyranitar and Metagross, considering he only ever used Charizard in the Mega Evolution specials, even when facing Rayquaza when it would have been thought he would have needed all the help he could get or against Seibold where Charizard had a clear disadvantage. I don't think it really needed to say why - Cameron's Team were all Unova Pokémon so it's not a huge stretch to imagine him capturing them.
    To be fair, everything about Alain suggests he is a massively powerful Pokemon, so the Pokemon on his team weren't really unbelievable in any way, while Cameron didn't show that much capability as a trainer, making one wonder how he got as far as he did. That's what I meant when I said he has no good reason for having them. As for not using them in the Mega Evolution Specials, Mega Charizard is by far Alain's strongest Pokemon, so going up against a Legendary Pokemon meant he had to give it his best and use his best. As for Siebold, the purpose of Alain battling him was so that he could test the strength of his Charizard against a powerful Pokemon that can Mega Evolve, using another Pokemon would have defeated the purpose of the battle.

    Join Ash and Pikachu as they travel to the Tenno Region, a region known for its advanced space program. Along their way towards the Tenno League and becoming a Pokémon Master they'll encounter new Pokémon, new enemies, such as the evil Team Planetary, and, of course, a certain trio of Team Rocket members, along with friends new and old.
    Check it out!

    For news, reviews, info on my games Luna, Terra, and Sol Versions, the basis of Cosmic Quest, Special Episodes, and features like a Tenno Region Pokédex listing my custom Pokémon, including pictures, visit the Pokémon Cosmic Quest Official Website. Join us as we celebrate Ash's 20th 10th Birthday!

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    Give Cameron a likable personality for one. He was literally traits of Ash turned up. It doesn't make for an interesting character. Besides, we already had an ditzy but skilled type of trainer in Bianca. We didn't need two.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

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    But this is the traditional royal Canterlot voice! It is tradition to speak, using the Royal "we", and to use THIS MUCH VOLUME WHEN ADDRESSING OUR SUBJECTS!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Give Cameron a likable personality for one. He was literally traits of Ash turned up. It doesn't make for an interesting character. Besides, we already had an ditzy but skilled type of trainer in Bianca. We didn't need two.
    I wonder how fans would've reacted if Bianca had beaten Ash at Unova's League.~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    I wonder how fans would've reacted if Bianca had beaten Ash at Unova's League.~
    With the same flame war, wash, rinse, and repeat we see at the league.
    "Everyone creates the thing they dread. Men of peace create engines of war. Invaders create Avengers. People create... smaller people? Er... children! I lost the word there. Children. Designed to supplant them. To help them end."

    "Momentai!"

    But this is the traditional royal Canterlot voice! It is tradition to speak, using the Royal "we", and to use THIS MUCH VOLUME WHEN ADDRESSING OUR SUBJECTS!!

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    i wish we could see ash battle someone like katie again at a league. as in, a person ash hasn't met before who actually gives him a tough fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    What about Harrison? He and Ash were virtually tied in the Silver Conference up until the last second of their match.
    Sorry, that was a typo, I meant Harrison and Tyson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    To be fair, everything about Alain suggests he is a massively powerful Pokemon, so the Pokemon on his team weren't really unbelievable in any way, while Cameron didn't show that much capability as a trainer, making one wonder how he got as far as he did. That's what I meant when I said he has no good reason for having them. As for not using them in the Mega Evolution Specials, Mega Charizard is by far Alain's strongest Pokemon, so going up against a Legendary Pokemon meant he had to give it his best and use his best. As for Siebold, the purpose of Alain battling him was so that he could test the strength of his Charizard against a powerful Pokemon that can Mega Evolve, using another Pokemon would have defeated the purpose of the battle
    I would argue that there simply not being any indication of Pokémon other than Charizard on his team during his early appearance kind of implied Charizard was his only Pokémon. Cameron showed enough capability as a trainer when he fought Marlon and Bianca so getting as far as he did isn't unbelievable. Even Sawyer, who entered the series as a novice who lost quite decisively most of the battles he faced had Mega Sceptile, Salamance and Slaking by the time he got to the league. Wanting to battle Siebold with his strongest Pokémon is understandable, but it's still an odd choice to have given Alain four episodes devoted to him and not in any of them even show that he had one Pokémon other Pokémon on his team. At least with Rayquaza and Zygarde they weren't official battles but rather self defence so it would have made sense to send another Pokémon out to assist Charizard. I thought that was a odd omission, particularly when Ash used Halwutcha, Noibat and Talonflame to defend himself from Zapdoze.

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