Keldeo

[cdawg3574]

Specially defensive tentacruel. nuff said

[Zachmac]

Okay, so it could still use HP Ice. But one thing that just came to mind is it has a rather useless ability. Justified is great on the other Musketeers, but Keldeo has a low attack stat. Physical sets on Keldeo seem to fall under the "gimmick" category, but I guess it could try a set with Work Up...

There is no point in running a mixed set. Which counters would it be able to hit that it couldn't otherwise? It's already got Secret Sword, which is pretty much running a mixed set anyway.

Edit: Well, it does have X-scissor to hit the Latis. Hold on a moment, I'll do some calcs.
Edit2: Actually, my calculator is down or something....could someone else do this?

[AquaRegisteel]

^I'll do that!

252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 47.68% - 56.29%
252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def): 25.27% - 30.22%

252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 52.49% - 61.79%
252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def):28.02% - 32.97%

Not the most promising at all in all honesty, so I guess physical Keldeo is a gimmick.

Scarf Keldeo makes for a nice hit-and-run revenge killer/hole puncher in the rain:

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
{Justified}
Timid Nature
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spe
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- HP Ice
- Focus Blast

This hits hard with the Hydro Pumpingness that it has. The 192 Speed EVs may seem random, but the things that could be outsped at 519 Spe are non-existant, as I have some Speed Tiers here:

518 - +2 Adamant Blaziken
504 - Naive Deoxys-S
498 - Jolly Scarf Garchomp
495 - +1 192 Spe Keldeo/Terrakion/Virizion
492 - +1 Jolly Volcarona / +1 Salamence

As you can see, I could drop down to 330 Speed before the Scarf boost, and I'd outspeed everything I would outspeed with full Speed, as the things outsped at max speed are Uber. I cannot drop down to 329 as 330 Speed is a jump point from 328.

[jesusfreak94]

I think I figured up once that a 4 Atk LO Keldeo had a good chance of 2HKOing 252/0 Timid Latias with X-Scissor after a Justified boost, while HP Ice coming off the same Keldeo at +0 SpA couldn't do the same. It also does a bit more damage to Celebi than HP Ice, even without the boost. I guess it's worth testing.

Also, as far as Scarf Keldeo goes, there are a couple of things you might want to run max speed to beat, namely Landorus, Modest Venusaur in the Sun, and the speed tie with opposing Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion.

[Zachmac]

^I'll do that!

252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 47.68% - 56.29%
252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def): 25.27% - 30.22%

252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 52.49% - 61.79%
252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def):28.02% - 32.97%

Not the most promising at all in all honesty, so I guess physical Keldeo is a gimmick.

Actually, I was asking about a mixed Work Up set. 0 attack EVs, and at +1.

But it looks like my calculator is working again, so I'll do that in a second.

Edit: I'm not going to post the numbers, but with life orb, neutral attack nature, it only 2HKOs them....while it's probably going to be OHKOed by Latios, the typical Calm Mind Latias lacking Psyshock only 3HKOs, so I guess it could work if you have problems with it. It does 2HKO if you factor in Life Orb, though. I'm thinking Hasty/252 Sp.att/252Speed Keldeo with Life Orb, Hydro Pump, Sacred Sword, and X-Scissor. Maybe Aqua Jet>X-scissor to hit some faster threats and win speed ties? It will allow it to always beat Terrakion and Infernape in the rain, I think. I didn't do any calcs, though.

[jle1076]

did the first poster really say Fighting/Water is bad coverage?

In the current OU metagme, Water/Fighting hits everything except 9-10 pkmn for neutral or + damage, and in those 9, HP grass would be a better choice than HP ghost for maximum coverage with a Calm Mind set especially cause a Neutral STAB H-Pump off a +1 Keldeo is going to slaughter even if you resist it

[Zachmac]

did the first poster really say Fighting/Water is bad coverage?

In the current OU metagme, Water/Fighting hits everything except 9-10 pkmn for neutral or + damage, and in those 9, HP grass would be a better choice than HP ghost for maximum coverage with a Calm Mind set especially cause a Neutral STAB H-Pump off a +1 Keldeo is going to slaughter even if you resist it

I'm looking, and I don't see were he said it was bad....

[jle1076]

Keldeo@Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Calm Mind
-Hydro Pump
-Hidden Power Ghost
-Secret Sword

This is THE set everyone will be running. Its a terrifying set! Keldeo's only problem is fighting / water isn't the greatest coverage even with Hidden Power. Something will wall it and to make it worse its revenged by a decent number of things.

Easy OU, but we'll have to see how high it gets.

That^

10/char

[Zachmac]

That^

10/char

Oh, I thought you were talking about Smogon Freak.

Meh, it's good coverage, but it's not exactly BoltBeam. We've got a lot of Dragons with fighting resist running around, along with Jellicent, Tentacruel, and the occasional Toxicroak. I see all of these except Toxicroak a lot. If I go into the battles and none of my opponents uses anything of these pokemon, I'd be pretty surprised.

[jle1076]

Yeah but HP Fire/HP grass would hit more pokemon that itll most likely come across as there are better counters to the Lati Twins than HP Ghost or a weak *** X-scissor.

[Zachmac]

Yeah but HP Fire/HP grass would hit more pokemon that itll most likely come across as there are better counters to the Lati Twins than HP Ghost or a weak *** X-scissor.

Well, the point she was making is that it isn't the best coverage, and it isn't. She never said it was bad, did she? It just isn't the best out there. Keldeo would be much better off with Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, or Ice Beam, but it's pretty well off anyway.

[MatchMaster]

I'm starting to see where this is going: Depending on what Hidden Power type Keldeo runs, there are going to be Pokemon that easily counters it. Since Keldeo will proably be running HP Ice most of the time, Psychic types will become Keldeo's biggest counters. Alakazam, Reuniclus, and even Gallade seem to stick out in particular, due to their high special defenses and STAB. If Keldeo runs Hidden Power Ghost, Grass types like Venusaur and Virizion will become it's counter. While there is a bright side to this in that Keldeo can be unpredictable, in both cases Galvantula and Rotom-W can be problems for it; the former ties for speed with Keldeo and has Compoundeyes Thunder, while Rotom-W can sponge all of its attacks and attack back with STAB Electric moves.

[Zachmac]

I'm starting to see where this is going: Depending on what Hidden Power type Keldeo runs, there are going to be Pokemon that easily counters it. Since Keldeo will proably be running HP Ice most of the time, Psychic types will become Keldeo's biggest counters. Alakazam, Reuniclus, and even Gallade seem to stick out in particular, due to their high special defenses and STAB. If Keldeo runs Hidden Power Ghost, Grass types like Venusaur and Virizion will become it's counter. While there is a bright side to this in that Keldeo can be unpredictable, in both cases Galvantula and Rotom-W can be problems for it; the former ties for speed with Keldeo and has Compoundeyes Thunder, while Rotom-W can sponge all of its attacks and attack back with STAB Electric moves.

Actually, I'm not sure I'm pretty sure Alakazam couldn't swap into a Hydro Pump, and Reuniclus/Gallade probably couldn't in the rain. Virizion wouldn't like Secret Sword very much either.

It's biggest counters are probably going to be Jellicent, Tentacruel, D-nite and the Latis.

[assassinsceptile]

I'm starting to see where this is going: Depending on what Hidden Power type Keldeo runs, there are going to be Pokemon that easily counters it. Since Keldeo will proably be running HP Ice most of the time, Psychic types will become Keldeo's biggest counters. Alakazam, Reuniclus, and even Gallade seem to stick out in particular, due to their high special defenses and STAB. If Keldeo runs Hidden Power Ghost, Grass types like Venusaur and Virizion will become it's counter. While there is a bright side to this in that Keldeo can be unpredictable, in both cases Galvantula and Rotom-W can be problems for it; the former ties for speed with Keldeo and has Compoundeyes Thunder, while Rotom-W can sponge all of its attacks and attack back with STAB Electric moves.

Not a single pokemon you stated can switch into Keldeo, masking none of them counters. Why would Keldeo run HP Ice when everything that hates HP Ice gets blasted away by Hydro Pump or a better hidden power type anyway?

[jesusfreak94]

HP Ghost is pretty much going to be the Hidden Power of choice for Keldeo. Even stuff like Dragonite can be worn down in the Rain by Hydro Pump (and maybe entry hazards). Even Tentacruel is threatened; physically defensive is 2HKO'd by a Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain, and specially defensive takes a 40% minimum from Specs Secret Sword, so it can't switch in safely more than once. CM sets can just set up on Tentacruel, and they don't even mind an occasional burn from Scald all that much. Being immune to both STABs, Jellicent is one of the few Pokemon that can safely switch into Keldeo, and HP Ghost helps against it, especially on the CM sets. It also gives the Specs set a better shot at 2HKOing a 252/0 Latias at full health.

[jle1076]

Not a single pokemon you stated can switch into Keldeo, masking none of them counters. Why would Keldeo run HP Ice when everything that hates HP Ice gets blasted away by Hydro Pump or a better hidden power type anyway?

How about ALL of the big dragon types? LOL

HP Ghost is pretty much going to be the Hidden Power of choice for Keldeo. Even stuff like Dragonite can be worn down in the Rain by Hydro Pump (and maybe entry hazards). Even Tentacruel is threatened; physically defensive is 2HKO'd by a Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain, and specially defensive takes a 40% minimum from Specs Secret Sword, so it can't switch in safely more than once. CM sets can just set up on Tentacruel, and they don't even mind an occasional burn from Scald all that much. Being immune to both STABs, Jellicent is one of the few Pokemon that can safely switch into Keldeo, and HP Ghost helps against it, especially on the CM sets. It also gives the Specs set a better shot at 2HKOing a 252/0 Latias at full health.

As I stated earlier, with a Calm Mind set youd be better off with HP grass 90% of the time and You do NOT use Multi Scale Dnite without ample spin support or it ruins him completely

ALSO, why are we running Sacred Sword instead of Focus Blast?...

[jesusfreak94]

How about ALL of the big dragon types? LOL

Um, no. 4/0 Dragonite is 2HKO'd by Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain, even with Multiscale intact. Bulkier variants take a little previous damage (not unlikely at all) and usually don't have the raw offense to OHKO Keldeo and escape the 3HKO. Even Latias can be 2HKO'd at full health.

As I stated earlier, with a Calm Mind set youd be better off with HP grass 90% of the time and You do NOT use Multi Scale Dnite without ample spin support or it ruins him completely

Lol, what exactly are you hitting with HP Grass? Rock and Ground types are maimed by Hydro Pump. And Water types? Cloyster takes special hits like a wet tissue. Gyarados and Tentacruel are hit harder by a NVE Hydro Pump without Rain. Gastrodon and Vaporeon are hit hard enough by Secret Sword, which targets their lower Def stat. Rotom-W, Politoed, and Starmie are less specially bulky than Latias, so you can bet they take more damage from Hydro Pump. Jellicent is a legitimate concern, but it's handed by HP Ghost, which incidently also handles Celebi and Latias better than any of Keldeo's other options. The only other HP type that should ever be used over Ghost is Ice, which doesn't even handle Jellicent, and that's just if you REALLY hate Dragons.

ALSO, why are we running Sacred Sword instead of Focus Blast?...

Not Sacred Sword, Secret Sword. Secret Sword is a Fighting type Psyshock, which helps against stuff like Blissey and Gastrodon. Sacred Sword is a physical move that should never be used on Keldeo.

[jle1076]

Um, no. 4/0 Dragonite is 2HKO'd by Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain, even with Multiscale intact. Bulkier variants take a little previous damage (not unlikely at all) and usually don't have the raw offense to OHKO Keldeo and escape the 3HKO. Even Latias can be 2HKO'd at full health.



Lol, what exactly are you hitting with HP Grass? Rock and Ground types are maimed by Hydro Pump. And Water types? Cloyster takes special hits like a wet tissue. Gyarados and Tentacruel are hit harder by a NVE Hydro Pump without Rain. Gastrodon and Vaporeon are hit hard enough by Secret Sword, which targets their lower Def stat. Rotom-W, Politoed, and Starmie are less specially bulky than Latias, so you can bet they take more damage from Hydro Pump. Jellicent is a legitimate concern, but it's handed by HP Ghost, which incidently also handles Celebi and Latias better than any of Keldeo's other options. The only other HP type that should ever be used over Ghost is Ice, which doesn't even handle Jellicent, and that's just if you REALLY hate Dragons.



Not Sacred Sword, Secret Sword. Secret Sword is a Fighting type Psyshock, which helps against stuff like Blissey and Gastrodon. Sacred Sword is a physicallove that should never be used on Keldeo.

My bad with the sword move, thts good, but 2hko with hyrdopump is ******** haha cause hes only going to take 26% max on the first hit, set up a ddance and OHKO you.

[jesusfreak94]

My bad with the sword move, thts good, but 2hko with hyrdopump is ******** haha cause hes only going to take 26% max on the first hit, set up a ddance and OHKO you.

Again, no.

Timid 252 SpA Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump (Rain) V.S. 4/0 Adamant Multiscale Dragonite = 33.95-39.81%

Well over half of Dragonite run only 4 or 0 HP EVs, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, let's assume a bulkier 252 HP/44 Atk/212 Spe Adamant spread.

Timid 252 SpA Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump (Rain) V.S. 252/0 Adamant Multiscale Dragonite = 28.50-33.42%

Easy 3HKO. Easier 2HKO with Rocks down, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for that too. Now, the return fire?

+1 Adamant 44 Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw V.S. 4/0 Timid Keldeo = 63.89-75.31%

Dragonite can't even OHKO back without Outrage, which is less than ideal on a bulky DD set. Even then, it takes about a 72% damage minimum (counting Leftovers) before it hits back, which leaves it extremely open to an easy revenge kill.

Stop Theorymonning and trying to call BS on me and just run some calcs. Sheesh.

[AquaRegisteel]

To the point about Focus Blast, it has poorer accuracy (by about 30) to Secret Sword. Besides, Keldeo isn't exactly the movepool god.

I could easily say that any other Dragon, including D-Nite, couldn't stand up to Hydro Pump, even if it was Scarved in the rain. Hydro Pump Specs Timid vs Dragons of OU and Uber, factoring Rain I believe:

252 SAtk Timid Keldeo's Hydro Pump Vs 4/0 Zekrom: 64.04% - 75.44% (Guaranteed 2HKO, SR + 2 Spikes Layers OHKOs 37.5%)
252 SAtk Timid Keldeo's Hydro Pump Vs 4/0 Reshiram: 109.38 - 129.33% (Guaranteed OHKO)
252 SAtk Timid Keldeo's Hydro Pump Vs 4/0 Arceus Dragon: 48.82% - 57.74% (2HKO-3HKO, 2HKO with SR)
252 SAtk Timid Keldeo's Hydro Pump Vs 4/0 Dialga: 71.26% - 84.16% (Guaranteed 2HKO, 56.25% OHKO with SR + 2 Spikes Layers)

I'm refusing to do anymore, but that should give you a clear idea of the power it possesses with a Specs and Timid Nature alone! I don't want to start on Specs Modest, but I'll do this quick calc on Arceus-Dragon:

Modest 252 SAtk +1 Timid Keldeo Hydro Pump Vs 4/0 Arceus Dragon: 73.49% - 86.61% (Guaranteed 2HKO, OHKO 100% with SR + 2 Spikes Layers)