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Thread: Keldeo

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    I wonder why has no one mentioned a Life Orb set. It sacrifices the power granted by Specs but gives him the ability to switch moves, making nothing an actual safe check, as with Team Preview, you can look at the team and identify the defensive core and predict the switch.
    The set that people have been talking about (mostly) is LO/lefties CM... not specs. In my opinion, keldeo only has three moves worth running (Hpump, SS, HP) and it can easily pressure a switch and put up a CM, so it outclasses specs.

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  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by zerofield View Post
    The set that people have been talking about (mostly) is LO/lefties CM... not specs. In my opinion, keldeo only has three moves worth running (Hpump, SS, HP) and it can easily pressure a switch and put up a CM, so it outclasses specs.
    Scizor can give up the utility of Pursuit to run Swords Dance with a Life Orb and have much more power than a Choice Band set. Does that mean that the CB set is outclassed? Likewise, Terrakion gets nearly perfect coverage between its powerful STABs, giving it room to run a move to double either Atk or Spe in one turn, making it more powerful or faster than the CB set. Does that mean it's outclassed too?

    In no way is the Specs set outclassed by the CM set. They play very differently. The Specs set gives you immediate power to just hit stuff as hard as possible. The CM set requires setup, and as such is far easier to switch into. You can either come in scott free on a CM, or worst case scenario, take a +0 attack. There are also times where a Specs set can 2HKO a switch-in with the appropriate move, while a +1 LO attack will fail to OHKO. In that case, the Specs set would allow Keldeo to kill the opponent without getting harmed itself, while the CM set would have to take a hit before finishing off the opponent.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Scizor can give up the utility of Pursuit to run Swords Dance with a Life Orb and have much more power than a Choice Band set. Does that mean that the CB set is outclassed? Likewise, Terrakion gets nearly perfect coverage between its powerful STABs, giving it room to run a move to double either Atk or Spe in one turn, making it more powerful or faster than the CB set. Does that mean it's outclassed too?

    In no way is the Specs set outclassed by the CM set. They play very differently. The Specs set gives you immediate power to just hit stuff as hard as possible. The CM set requires setup, and as such is far easier to switch into. You can either come in scott free on a CM, or worst case scenario, take a +0 attack. There are also times where a Specs set can 2HKO a switch-in with the appropriate move, while a +1 LO attack will fail to OHKO. In that case, the Specs set would allow Keldeo to kill the opponent without getting harmed itself, while the CM set would have to take a hit before finishing off the opponent.
    Exactly. The CM set is more tailored to raw power stallbreaking, while the Specs set destroys offensive teams.

  4. #154
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    Its movepool is rather lacking, but I believe it has the potential to KO Blissey who lack thunderbolt without much trouble, as Secret Sword comes off Keldeo's high base 125 sp. attack stat, but hits the target's defense stat. That means it'll probably be in OU, but not Ubers.

    Edit: Sorry for posting here; I didn't look at the date on the last post.
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  5. #155
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    Keldeo is gonna be AMAZING once it comes out!

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatchMaster View Post
    Its movepool is rather lacking, but I believe it has the potential to KO Blissey who lack thunderbolt without much trouble, as Secret Sword comes off Keldeo's high base 125 sp. attack stat, but hits the target's defense stat. That means it'll probably be in OU, but not Ubers.

    Edit: Sorry for posting here; I didn't look at the date on the last post.
    Why would a small move pool matter? It's got all it needs. Hydro Pump is downright scary in the rain, and it can handle most pokemon who resist that with Secret Sword(Ferrothorn, Blissy, ect). The Latis, Jellicent, and all other pokemon who resist both I can think of are weak to dark. Dark and Ghost, which it can handle just by using hidden power.

    That's all it really needs. Heck, Hydro Pump is all it needs, Secret Sword just makes it even more dangerous.

    You don't ask "does it have enough moves?", you ask "are the moves it has good enough for it?". Excadril didn't even have stone edge and it made it to Ubers, only because of one single set.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachmac View Post
    Why would a small move pool matter? It's got all it needs. Hydro Pump is downright scary in the rain, and it can handle most pokemon who resist that with Secret Sword(Ferrothorn, Blissy, ect). The Latis, Jellicent, and all other pokemon who resist both I can think of are weak to dark. Dark and Ghost, which it can handle just by using hidden power.

    That's all it really needs. Heck, Hydro Pump is all it needs, Secret Sword just makes it even more dangerous.

    You don't ask "does it have enough moves?", you ask "are the moves it has good enough for it?". Excadril didn't even have stone edge and it made it to Ubers, only because of one single set.
    On the money. ^

    keldeo will find itself in most situations not needing to use any other attacks. Hydro Pump + Sacred Sword STAB combo is enough for it to be outrageously threatening. One thing that resists this STAB combo though is the levitating / flying dragons like Lati@s, Mence, and Dragonite. This could easily be alleviated though with a Hidden Power.

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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wallrein View Post
    keldeo will find itself in most situations not needing to use any other attacks. Hydro Pump + Sacred Sword STAB combo is enough for it to be outrageously threatening. One thing that resists this STAB combo though is the levitating / flying dragons like Lati@s, Mence, and Dragonite. This could easily be alleviated though with a Hidden Power.
    How does levitate have anything to do with this?
    The only problem with this set is that it can be walled by Jellicent with Water Absorb. It's the best (and possibly only) pokemon that walls it completely. Unaffected by either of Keldeo's STAB moves, and HP Ice will do almost nothing to Jellicent. I did the calcs, and HP Ice does no more than 17% on a Jellicent without any Hp or Sp. Def EVs. This is Keldeo with Specs, btw. After six Calm Minds with Life Orb, it still only does up to 60% on Jellicent, assuming there are only 4 Sp. Def EVs and Max Hp.
    Note, this is after 6 Calm Minds.
    Anyway, I think this proves my point that Jellicent is the only real counter to
    Keldeo :3
    EDIT: In the Rain with Life Orb, standard Venasuar survives Hydro Pump and Hidden Power Ice from Keldeo, assuming it hasn't used Calm Mind yet. Venasuar OHKOs Keldeo with Energy Ball with Life Orb or after one Growth. In the sun, Venasaur out-speeds Keldeo and can survive a HP Ice. Potential counter as well.


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  9. #159
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    That's just te way I was referring to them dragons.. Levitate has nothing in itself to do with it. The psychic and flying parts are the point I was getting a as they resist Keldeos STAB. Hp ghost could always be run to deal with Jellicent and the Lati@s, just sacrificing hard hits on dint and mence, but menace won't like taking a boosted Hydro Pump even though it's resisted.

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  10. #160
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    Okay, so it could still use HP Ice. But one thing that just came to mind is it has a rather useless ability. Justified is great on the other Musketeers, but Keldeo has a low attack stat. Physical sets on Keldeo seem to fall under the "gimmick" category, but I guess it could try a set with Work Up...
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  11. #161
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    Specially defensive tentacruel. nuff said
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  12. #162
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    Okay, so it could still use HP Ice. But one thing that just came to mind is it has a rather useless ability. Justified is great on the other Musketeers, but Keldeo has a low attack stat. Physical sets on Keldeo seem to fall under the "gimmick" category, but I guess it could try a set with Work Up...
    There is no point in running a mixed set. Which counters would it be able to hit that it couldn't otherwise? It's already got Secret Sword, which is pretty much running a mixed set anyway.

    Edit: Well, it does have X-scissor to hit the Latis. Hold on a moment, I'll do some calcs.
    Edit2: Actually, my calculator is down or something....could someone else do this?
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  13. #163
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    ^I'll do that!

    252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 47.68% - 56.29%
    252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def): 25.27% - 30.22%

    252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 52.49% - 61.79%
    252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def):28.02% - 32.97%

    Not the most promising at all in all honesty, so I guess physical Keldeo is a gimmick.

    Scarf Keldeo makes for a nice hit-and-run revenge killer/hole puncher in the rain:

    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    {Justified}
    Timid Nature
    EVs: 60 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spe
    - Secret Sword
    - Hydro Pump
    - HP Ice
    - Focus Blast

    This hits hard with the Hydro Pumpingness that it has. The 192 Speed EVs may seem random, but the things that could be outsped at 519 Spe are non-existant, as I have some Speed Tiers here:

    518 - +2 Adamant Blaziken
    504 - Naive Deoxys-S
    498 - Jolly Scarf Garchomp
    495 - +1 192 Spe Keldeo/Terrakion/Virizion
    492 - +1 Jolly Volcarona / +1 Salamence

    As you can see, I could drop down to 330 Speed before the Scarf boost, and I'd outspeed everything I would outspeed with full Speed, as the things outsped at max speed are Uber. I cannot drop down to 329 as 330 Speed is a jump point from 328.
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  14. #164

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    I think I figured up once that a 4 Atk LO Keldeo had a good chance of 2HKOing 252/0 Timid Latias with X-Scissor after a Justified boost, while HP Ice coming off the same Keldeo at +0 SpA couldn't do the same. It also does a bit more damage to Celebi than HP Ice, even without the boost. I guess it's worth testing.

    Also, as far as Scarf Keldeo goes, there are a couple of things you might want to run max speed to beat, namely Landorus, Modest Venusaur in the Sun, and the speed tie with opposing Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion.

  15. #165
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    ^I'll do that!

    252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 47.68% - 56.29%
    252 Atk Jolly Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def): 25.27% - 30.22%

    252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 4/0 Latios: 52.49% - 61.79%
    252 Atk Adamant Keldeo X-Scissor vs 252/252 Latias (+Def):28.02% - 32.97%

    Not the most promising at all in all honesty, so I guess physical Keldeo is a gimmick.
    Actually, I was asking about a mixed Work Up set. 0 attack EVs, and at +1.

    But it looks like my calculator is working again, so I'll do that in a second.

    Edit: I'm not going to post the numbers, but with life orb, neutral attack nature, it only 2HKOs them....while it's probably going to be OHKOed by Latios, the typical Calm Mind Latias lacking Psyshock only 3HKOs, so I guess it could work if you have problems with it. It does 2HKO if you factor in Life Orb, though. I'm thinking Hasty/252 Sp.att/252Speed Keldeo with Life Orb, Hydro Pump, Sacred Sword, and X-Scissor. Maybe Aqua Jet>X-scissor to hit some faster threats and win speed ties? It will allow it to always beat Terrakion and Infernape in the rain, I think. I didn't do any calcs, though.
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  16. #166
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    did the first poster really say Fighting/Water is bad coverage?

    In the current OU metagme, Water/Fighting hits everything except 9-10 pkmn for neutral or + damage, and in those 9, HP grass would be a better choice than HP ghost for maximum coverage with a Calm Mind set especially cause a Neutral STAB H-Pump off a +1 Keldeo is going to slaughter even if you resist it

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by jle1076 View Post
    did the first poster really say Fighting/Water is bad coverage?

    In the current OU metagme, Water/Fighting hits everything except 9-10 pkmn for neutral or + damage, and in those 9, HP grass would be a better choice than HP ghost for maximum coverage with a Calm Mind set especially cause a Neutral STAB H-Pump off a +1 Keldeo is going to slaughter even if you resist it
    I'm looking, and I don't see were he said it was bad....
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  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Keldeo@Leftovers
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    -Calm Mind
    -Hydro Pump
    -Hidden Power Ghost
    -Secret Sword

    This is THE set everyone will be running. Its a terrifying set! Keldeo's only problem is fighting / water isn't the greatest coverage even with Hidden Power. Something will wall it and to make it worse its revenged by a decent number of things.

    Easy OU, but we'll have to see how high it gets.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jle1076 View Post
    That^

    10/char
    Oh, I thought you were talking about Smogon Freak.

    Meh, it's good coverage, but it's not exactly BoltBeam. We've got a lot of Dragons with fighting resist running around, along with Jellicent, Tentacruel, and the occasional Toxicroak. I see all of these except Toxicroak a lot. If I go into the battles and none of my opponents uses anything of these pokemon, I'd be pretty surprised.
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  20. #170
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    Yeah but HP Fire/HP grass would hit more pokemon that itll most likely come across as there are better counters to the Lati Twins than HP Ghost or a weak *** X-scissor.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by jle1076 View Post
    Yeah but HP Fire/HP grass would hit more pokemon that itll most likely come across as there are better counters to the Lati Twins than HP Ghost or a weak *** X-scissor.
    Well, the point she was making is that it isn't the best coverage, and it isn't. She never said it was bad, did she? It just isn't the best out there. Keldeo would be much better off with Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, or Ice Beam, but it's pretty well off anyway.
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  22. #172
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    I'm starting to see where this is going: Depending on what Hidden Power type Keldeo runs, there are going to be Pokemon that easily counters it. Since Keldeo will proably be running HP Ice most of the time, Psychic types will become Keldeo's biggest counters. Alakazam, Reuniclus, and even Gallade seem to stick out in particular, due to their high special defenses and STAB. If Keldeo runs Hidden Power Ghost, Grass types like Venusaur and Virizion will become it's counter. While there is a bright side to this in that Keldeo can be unpredictable, in both cases Galvantula and Rotom-W can be problems for it; the former ties for speed with Keldeo and has Compoundeyes Thunder, while Rotom-W can sponge all of its attacks and attack back with STAB Electric moves.
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  23. #173
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    I'm starting to see where this is going: Depending on what Hidden Power type Keldeo runs, there are going to be Pokemon that easily counters it. Since Keldeo will proably be running HP Ice most of the time, Psychic types will become Keldeo's biggest counters. Alakazam, Reuniclus, and even Gallade seem to stick out in particular, due to their high special defenses and STAB. If Keldeo runs Hidden Power Ghost, Grass types like Venusaur and Virizion will become it's counter. While there is a bright side to this in that Keldeo can be unpredictable, in both cases Galvantula and Rotom-W can be problems for it; the former ties for speed with Keldeo and has Compoundeyes Thunder, while Rotom-W can sponge all of its attacks and attack back with STAB Electric moves.
    Actually, I'm not sure I'm pretty sure Alakazam couldn't swap into a Hydro Pump, and Reuniclus/Gallade probably couldn't in the rain. Virizion wouldn't like Secret Sword very much either.

    It's biggest counters are probably going to be Jellicent, Tentacruel, D-nite and the Latis.
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  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatchMaster View Post
    I'm starting to see where this is going: Depending on what Hidden Power type Keldeo runs, there are going to be Pokemon that easily counters it. Since Keldeo will proably be running HP Ice most of the time, Psychic types will become Keldeo's biggest counters. Alakazam, Reuniclus, and even Gallade seem to stick out in particular, due to their high special defenses and STAB. If Keldeo runs Hidden Power Ghost, Grass types like Venusaur and Virizion will become it's counter. While there is a bright side to this in that Keldeo can be unpredictable, in both cases Galvantula and Rotom-W can be problems for it; the former ties for speed with Keldeo and has Compoundeyes Thunder, while Rotom-W can sponge all of its attacks and attack back with STAB Electric moves.
    Not a single pokemon you stated can switch into Keldeo, masking none of them counters. Why would Keldeo run HP Ice when everything that hates HP Ice gets blasted away by Hydro Pump or a better hidden power type anyway?

  25. #175

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    HP Ghost is pretty much going to be the Hidden Power of choice for Keldeo. Even stuff like Dragonite can be worn down in the Rain by Hydro Pump (and maybe entry hazards). Even Tentacruel is threatened; physically defensive is 2HKO'd by a Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain, and specially defensive takes a 40% minimum from Specs Secret Sword, so it can't switch in safely more than once. CM sets can just set up on Tentacruel, and they don't even mind an occasional burn from Scald all that much. Being immune to both STABs, Jellicent is one of the few Pokemon that can safely switch into Keldeo, and HP Ghost helps against it, especially on the CM sets. It also gives the Specs set a better shot at 2HKOing a 252/0 Latias at full health.

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