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Thread: Sunshine through Rain (4th Gen-style OU)

  1. #1
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    Default Sunshine through Rain (4th Gen-style OU)


    Cheshire (Rotom-W) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 108 HP / 252 SAtk / 148 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Thunder

    Though I don't have a dedicated "lead," I tend to start with Rotom more often than any other Pokemon. Water/Electric/Ice is fantastic coverage. With the plethora of Politoed running around as leads on rain stall teams, I can very often lead with Rotom, fire off a perfect-accuracy Thunder and get a quick first-turn OHKO against them. This is part of a strategy with my Infernape for systematically breaking down rain stall teams that I'll continue later.

    The EV spread is basically the standard one for a Choice'd Rotom. 148 Speed EVs puts me just faster than all non-Scarf TTar and everything that EVs to hit that benchmark. One notable enemy that lets me outspeed and almost OHKO is Adamant Breloom. Everything else goes into HP, as I tend to use Rotom as a special tank, which its typing and EV spread help facilitate. There have been lots of times I've wished he was bulkier, and lots of times I've wished he was faster, but I think this spread is a good mix of the two for the most part. Leftovers help him restore HP and tank longer, while giving him the freedom to switch moves that a Choice item does not. I've tried Choice Specs on him extensively and found that I like Leftovers better in practice.

    The things I think you all will object to most are his Electric-type attacks. Volt Switch and Trick or Pain Split are much more standard. I chose Thunderbolt because I appreciate the raw power increase it affords over Volt Switch, and while well timed Volt Switches can net you favorable matchups, being forced to switch just because I wanted to use my main STAB attack isn't always prudent. Additionally, most people have come to recognize Rotom as a Volt Switcher and will send out a fast Ground-type against him to prevent the switch. I chose Thunder to counter rain, which I'll be explaining more about under Infernape.


    War Pig (Mamoswine) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge

    Mamoswine is my main physical sweeper. Mamoswine's combination of STAB Ground, STAB Ice and STAB priority lets him sweep through unprepared or weakened teams very easily. Icicle Crash also has a handy 30% chance of causing flinch, which has time-and-time-again allowed me to cleanly KO things that normally I can only 2-3HKO such as Skarmory. I get the flinch off Icicle Crash so often that I've almost come to depend on it. He is also no slouch defensively either; Scarf Jirachi locked into Body Slam can only do 30% damage at most, or 86% if it predicts correctly and uses Iron Head, while Mamoswine can OHKO back with Earthquake. Most importantly however, Mamoswine laughs at the defensive titan that is Multiscale Dragonite. Ice Shard can always OHKO Dragonite if Multiscale is broken, and it can still do well over half HP if it isn't. I let an opposing Dragonite get to +6/+6 once, then sent in Mamoswine and one-hit it with Ice Shard just for laughs.

    The two main things that could be changed here would be nature and item. Adamant is generally more viable as Jolly doesn't let it outspeed much. The most important thing switching to Jolly would let me outspeed would be Timid Heatran; however, most Timid Heatran also carry Choice Scarf, so switching to Jolly wouldn't practically let me outspeed them. I already outspeed all Modest ones, and the power increase is extremely useful. As of December, only 25% of all Heatran were Timid, and only around 40% ran enough Speed EVs to outspeed him. Everything else I would probably be switching out against or nailing with priority anyway. As for the item, while Life Orb's recoil can get painful during long battles, long battles for Mamoswine generally imply successful sweeps, so it doesn't matter too much. I've tried Choice Band extensively and I've found that being able to switch moves is vastly more important for Mamoswine than the slight power increase and the lack of recoil damage.


    Jetstream (Latios) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Latios is my main special sweeper. Since over 50% of all Latios carry Specs or LO and only 14% carry Scarf, Jetstream's Speed almost always takes unsuspecting opponents by surprise. That Speed increase is immeasurably valuable, letting him outspeed nearly every counter or target. For comparison, my Latios outspeeds +2 Adamant Dragonite, +1 Haxorus, all manner of Hydreigon, +1 Salamence, all non-Scarf Lati@s, +1 Terrakion, and Cloyster after a Shell Smash. It can also OHKO them all with the appropriate attack (some require SR damage, but most are OHKO'd cleanly). He would be unable to outspeed any of these except the Hydreigon without his Scarf, and would be OHKO'd by them all.

    Dragon Pulse and Psyshock are the two main go-to moves, typically prioritized in that order as well. Dragon Pulse is a very strong, reliable attack that hits a lot of stuff for good, neutral coverage. Psyshock is an alternate STAB attack that hits the likes of Blissey, Conkeldurr, Terrakion (this is a big one), Tentacruel and Toxicroak (if it doesn't Sucker Punch) for surprise damage. Draco Meteor isn't used much, but it can net important OHKOs against bulkier enemies who just require a bit more oomph. I find uses for it enough to keep it on, but I tend to use it sparingly. Hidden Power Fire rounds off the set to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn. I just recently switched this from Surf however, so I'm not sure if I'll keep it.

    Hydreigon and Latios seem to be having a bit of a pissing match this generation for usage stats. The two are often compared as they have similar stat distribution and typing. However, while Hydreigon gets better coverage, it is a tad weaker and significantly slower. Many people also argue that Hydreigon has better typing as it can't be Pursuited, but Latios' Psychic-typing is actually one of its more endearing qualities in my opinion. STAB Psyshock allows him to revenge kill Terrakion, who was a major threat for my team a while back. Additionally, for whatever reason, while Pursuit makes sense in theory, I rarely see it in practice. I don't know why, don't shoot the messenger, but I have switched away from Tyranitar and Scizor many times with Latios and gotten out unscathed. I prefer Latios to Hydreigon and I'd like to stick with him.


    Wolfsbane (Gliscor) (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Earthquake

    Like I said for Latios, Terrakion use to be a major problem for my team. I added Gliscor solely to try and counter him, but he has since proven his effectiveness in other areas as well. This set is a copy/paste of the Defensive set from Smogon. Taunt keeps setup sweepers like Dragonite from getting too powerful while Toxic wears them down. It can also stop Baton Passing chains if I can catch it early enough. Protect can activate Toxic Orb, give Poison Heal a free turn, scout counters and increase the Toxic timer. Earthquake rounds off the set to prevent him from being Taunt-bait himself (I'm looking at you, Espeon), and gives him a nice STAB attack to hit (1) Steel-types who are immune to Toxic, and (2) Terrakion.

    Gliscor does his job extremely well and stops Terrakion and other physical heavy-hitters dead in their tracks. I've even managed to "sweep" unprepared teams with Gliscor before, which is always infinitely amusing. He also meshes well with everyone else on the team, most notably Rotom (who can sponge Ice and Water) and Latios (who draws physical attacks). However, he has a problem which I'm hoping this RMT can help fix. I never realized just how many things are both immune to Toxic and Earthquake until I started using Gliscor; Gengar, Balloon Heatran, Bronzong, some Magnezone, Skarmory, other Gliscor (this is a big one), etc. Additionally, I seem to find endless piles of Pokemon who are immune to one and resist the other; Heal Bell/Aromatherapy Blissey/Chansey, Conkeldurr, Roost Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, Reuniclus, all manner of Rotom, Scrafty, Hydration Vaporeon, Breloom, etc. I feel like I need another attacking move on him to help deal with this problem, but I don't know what to replace. I can't get rid of Toxic because that's his primary means of dealing damage. I can't get rid of Protect because it just does so many great things for him (as listed above). I can't get rid of Taunt because then Baton Passing teams can walk all over me, I allow setup sweepers to potentially beat me, and I become endlessly more susceptible to Taunt myself. Finally, I can't get rid of Earthquake because that wouldn't be solving the problem of not having enough attacking moves. I don't know what to replace or with what; any suggestions? Or should I leave him like he is?


    Snowflake (Infernape) (F) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Flare Blitz
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Sunny Day

    Infernape is my back-up physical attacker, my token Fighting-type, and most importantly, my weather counter. Infernape works as part of a strategy with Rotom to beat sand and rain. As I described before, Rotom can typically take down Tyranitar very quickly and can always stop Politoed if it is dumb enough to stay in past the first turn. At this point, while their weather is still going, they would be unable to restart it if it were to be stopped for some reason. Typically their next move is to send in a Ferrothorn. Rotom can't touch a Ferrothorn, but Infernape is the perfect counter. Sensing the danger, they switch their Ferrothorn out for something else. During this free turn, Infernape uses a very fast Sunny Day. This kills their weather and they are unable to restart it. Infernape is now firing off extremely powerful Flare Blitzes and has just taken out their weather after they can't restart it. If done successfully, the opposing team begins to crumble.

        Spoiler:- Turn-by-turn example:


    Rain stall use to be the number one most difficult thing for my team to counter. Maybe it is different on other servers, but it seemed like nearly every team was a carbon copy of the last crappy rain team, which was itself a carbon copy of the one before that. Rain is practically endless it seems like, so rather than keep losing, I knew I had to find a real counter. Not wanting to just run a weather team myself, I decided to use situationally disruptive weather like this. It works great in practice and I've noticed a real decline in the amount of rain teams I'm having trouble with. The best feeling ever is when they switch out for a Toxicroak on that turn I use Sunny Day, only to have their Dry Skin start hurting them instead of help.

    The set is mostly standard beyond Sunny Day. Flare Blitz and Close Combat are the obligatory STAB attacks, while Stone Edge helps me deal with Volcarona. Volcarona is a major threat to my team right now and I don't really have any counters for it if it managers to get more than a single Quiver Dance in. I've tried Mach Punch, but it just isn't as useful in practice as Stone Edge is. Her item is currently an Expert Belt, but I'd like to try and change this. The problem is that I play with Item Clause, which means I can't give her the more standard Life Orb without taking it away from Mamoswine. Any suggestions on the item would be really appreciated.


    Blitzkrieg (Heatran) (F) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Earth Power
    - Stealth Rock

    The last Pokemon on my team is my Heatran. Heatran more or less functions as a defensive pivot. With her typing and EVs, she can tank a lot of hits that don't hit her for SE damage. Those that do can be tanked by Rotom, Gliscor or Latios, generally speaking. Her Flash Fire is also useful against predicted Fire-type attacks, which I seem to get a lot of for some reason. The set is fairly standard and hasn't changed for me in a long time. Fire Blast is the obligatory powerful STAB attack; I tried Flamethrower once a while back, but she really appreciates the increase in power. Dragon Pulse hits the Dragon-types that her Steel-typing allows her to wall for very good damage, and actually surprises me by how hard it hits sometimes. It is also good for reliably hitting stuff that resists Fire Blast and Earth Power for neutral damage as well. Earth Power hits opposing Heatran etc, and Stealth Rock because it's Stealth Rock. Having SR however makes her very important whenever I face a team with a Volcarona on it. As I said before, Volcarona is a major threat and I pretty much have to structure my whole attacking strategy around stopping it when I see one. I tend to lead with Heatran to get SR up as quickly as possible if I'm facing one, and Infernape has to come out as soon as the Volcarona shows up to Stone Edge it before it can get too many Quiver Dances. Heatran is kind of just a reliable tank and good special hitter; I haven't ever really changed anything about her because I haven't found a need to.

  2. #2
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    I'll try and offer the best I can. I'm assuming a Gen IV only theme and I'll try to stick to this with my rate.

    Running 2 fire types and 2 ground types gives you a relatively unfriendly concern to water types. Rotom will be walled by a standard Gastrodon. That said, it seems your team puts a little too much pressure on Latios and Rotom to counter them. However, it's not lost on me what you are attempting to work on this team. I do note that you are putting a personal limitation and I get the sense you are reaching for the best you can work with.

    I would note that Latios is a Gen III. However, Gen IV is stretched for team constructions. Some choices to play around with that are Gen IV are Lucario, Toxicroak and Staraptor.

    On another note (I know Hidden Powers are annoying as sin to work for) you could consider HP Ice over Dragon Pulse on Heatran as it better counters problems that include Salamence, Dragonite, Landorus and Gliscor.

    I wish I had a better rate for this, but I'll be honest. It's difficult since a lot of the Gen IV options are pushed down to the lower tiers and have a hard time in the OU tier. I'd rather respect the more or less obvious theme of the team than blindly give this team other generation recommendations as if I can't read the title

    I'm not too fussy on the team, but that's probably because I love to see a spread of different gens. At any rate. Consider this your "bump" and the start to a good hearted debate

    Also, with such a restrictive team, it is always a benefit to run unusual sets. A hidden power for unexpected coverage. Fling and Acrobatics on Gliscor can prove a very fun combo since you have creative space to play around and have fun.
    Last edited by SilentOmen; 28th February 2012 at 9:12 AM.
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    Thanks, mate. Just to clarify in case anyone else responds though, I'm not restricting myself to just generation four Pokemon at all. It is purely coincidence that it turned out that way. When I said "4th gen-style OU," I meant no weather through abilities. Generation 4 and Generation 5's meta games are most starkly different due to weather starters making weather more common and bringing infinite weather as opposed to 5-8 turn weather down from ubers into OU. I just meant a non-weather reliant team. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I can see how that would be easy to misinterpret though since 5/6ths of the team is gen 4; purely a coincidence, I assure you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosBlizzard View Post
    Thanks, mate. Just to clarify in case anyone else responds though, I'm not restricting myself to just generation four Pokemon at all. It is purely coincidence that it turned out that way. When I said "4th gen-style OU," I meant no weather through abilities. Generation 4 and Generation 5's meta games are most starkly different due to weather starters making weather more common and bringing infinite weather as opposed to 5-8 turn weather down from ubers into OU. I just meant a non-weather reliant team. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I can see how that would be easy to misinterpret though since 5/6ths of the team is gen 4; purely a coincidence, I assure you.
    Not entirely accurate on the weather front. Sand teams were relatively annoying in Gen IV (though they've admittedly increased in annoyance Gen V) thanks to Tyranitar and Hippowdon.

    However, knowing the freedom of creative suggestion now, I'm going to get a good nap, and play around with a notepad and come back full force on ya xD
    Quote Originally Posted by Vycksta View Post
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  5. #5
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    Default I have a theory.

    Whenever teams that do not have an obvious problem, or are actually nicely thought-out get posted, no one replies because there's really nothing to pick at. Or they're too lazy to think harder than "You're Ground weak." and such.

    To be honest, I am trying very hard to find something wrong with your team too. I might be able to scrounge up a couple of alternatives, I'll definitely input on Gliscor since you asked, but beyond that, your team is overall put together very well.

    Ice and Water appear to be your overall weakness, but at the same time, these are weaknesses with multiple counters for. Just pointing it out.

    To break it downnn.. (Before we start, may I say that Latios' name is just awesome. It is just so fitting! And Cheshire? I mean, sadly, it's at the cost of that awesome grin of a Pokemon Romtom-M, but Cheshire still fits nicely. ANd it's a cute name! Kudos to you, for awesome nicknaming. XD)

    Cheshire
    1. Item: Currently no problem. I can see you changing this up for something that could do more damage output, like maybe moving the Expert Belt to Cheshire instead of Snowflake. But I mean, you run it pretty defensively as well, so I can see the merit Leftovers. Definitely a smart item to have.
    2. Ability: He should definitely have Slow Start. :P jk. Levitate's perfect, mainly because it is, but also because you really don't have a choice. haha
    3. EVs: Clever. I like this a lot. I think this is perfect for it, since it outspeeds dangers, is basically bulky enough to tank hits that it'll need to, etc. It's the best you can do to balance the two stats. Wait, why not 2252 Sp.Att though!? XD
    4. Nature: This could be where you increase you speed though. Have you tried Timid Nature?
    5. Moves: It's fine. I like your ideas for this set, and I mean, Rotom doesn't have a large enough moveset to really make a difference, especially in the metagame that it's running in. A lot of people will be setting up for a Trick+Volt Switch Rotom as well, so surprising them would be quite beneficial to you.

    War Pig
    1. Item: I think it's perfect; besides either a Scarf or a Choice Band (neither of which I particularly approve of on your Mamo), there's nothing more perfect.
    2. Ability: When Thick Fat Mamo becomes available, one that's strongest physical Ice attack isn't Ice Fang and has access to Ice Shard, that's the ability you'll want. But while it's still not possible, Snow Cloak will be fine. At the very least, you can play off opposing Hail teams and use their Hail to your advantage.
    3. EVs: Extreme damage output. I think we're good here.
    4. Nature: I honestly do not think there's a better nature. I'd suggest an HP boosting nature if one existed, but it doesn't, and Jolly is pointless because it'll outspeed little at the cost of extra power. OHKOs could turn into 2HKOs. Adamant, I feel, is perfect.
    5. Moves: Maximum coverage and damage output. I don't see any way I could suggest a change here, sorry.

    Jetstream
    1. Item: Perfect. Outspeeding everything and hitting hard. It goes well with Draco Meteor too, since you'll probably want to switch out after using that move once anyways.
    2. Ability: Again, Slow Start would be perfect here! (again, jk).
    3. EVs: I mean, HP would have been better that SpDef, but I mean. It doesn't really affect much either. It's 1 HP point. The rest is great.
    4. Nature: I probably would have gone this way too, although, since you're going with Scarf, would the 10% increase really do much? Wouldn't it already outspeed all those Pokemon you listed earlier? Modest could be helpful, so that you have a balance between the increase from Scarf and an increase from Modest.
    5. Moves: I like it, it's fine as is. I'm only throwing this out there, but in regards to Dragon Pulse, I get that it's for STAB. I do. And I also get that Draco Meteor is somewhat situational. But maybe you could drop Dragon Pulse for Surf. More coverage, predominantly. But DP works too, cos that IS STAB. And you said it was a go-to move, something that is pretty important. Oh, and, HP Fire > Surf. Sure, you miss out on T-Tar, but I mean, other Pokemon could take on T-Tar better, with less risks. I'm pro-HP Fire, so that you're not effectively walled by Steels, plus you can send stop Ferros who think they can stomp you.

    Wolfsbane
    1. Item: I think it's a given that this is perfect. (:
    2. Ability: Works well with the item. (:
    3. EVs: You now have a defensive wall of sorts! I can't suggest anything better. It saddens me, but EVs are somewhat of my weak spot.
    4. Nature: Meshes well with the rest of its set. Am I allowed to argue with Smogon?
    5. Moves: Is Baton Pass still popular in OU? If that's all you're worried about, Taunt can be used to switch out with something else. Ice or Fire Fang can replace it, Stone Edge. But if you also like the fact that it'll stop a Set-up, ok. (: Other than that, the set works really well within itself.

    Snowflake
    1. Item: I think, since you want to use Close Combat AND Sunny Day, a Focus Sash could be a bit more effective. More survivability, you know? If not, Life Orb or Expert Belt, depending on what you do with the rest of your team.
    2. Ability: I think this works, since you can't get Iron Fist.
    3. EVs: Perfect.
    4. Nature: I'm going to say Snowflake is perfect as far as Infernape go.
    5. Moves: I think it's not bad. Definitely clever. Sunny Day though.. Snowflake's so fragile, I don't see her surviving much after setting up Sunny Day without a Focus Sash, which completely negates Flare Blitz. But I don't know personally. I like the idea, and as long as you can set it up, seriously, why not?

    Blitzkrieg
    1. Item: Free switch in? Sure, it's common, but I mean. It's nice! It works! It's helpful!
    2. Ability: Very nice, I don't think there's an alternative anyways. But that alternative isn't anywhere near as good as this one, I'm sure.
    3. EVs: Also good. I mean, you're not a Heatran built for speed anyways, and you hit harder.
    4. Nature: Again! Read EVs.
    5. Moves: Pretty solid; I've already voiced my opinions on Blitzkrieg before. ATTRACT!!!!!! JK. XP But like Omen, if you can, HP Ice>Dragon Pulse for coverage. But if not, Dragon Pulse works fine, since Heatran is like, a Boss-Dragon Killer.

    Overall, I like the mesh of your team. But like Omen said again, I think Rain can still put a stomper on you with like, Gastrodon. And also, relying on solely Rotom and Latios can be difficult on you. If you can find a space to put it in, I think either Virizion or Venasaur could be a good replacement, particularly for either Heatran or Gliscor. For bulk, I'd go with Venasaur, who plays well with your Sunny Day if you can get it with Chlorophyll, and Virizion if you want something speedy and powerful. It's also Specially Defensive.

    Anyways, hope anything I said was helpful! This was mostly a "Hey, this is all good and you can maybe try this but your thing is cool too!" post, but whatever. You're good at team building, what can I say?

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  6. #6
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    I've looked over the team and I started my ever so tedious pick and scratch of sets. Truthfully, I realized how structural the team is worked out. I found that by taking certain things I originally noted as a drawback drastically hindered your team. Taking Heatran costs you a Dragon and Venusaur check (in sun, this is important to have). Removing Infernape for other fighting types without the costly water weakness resulted in your loss of sunny day weather nullifier.

    The only note I can make is that Thunder isn't really that necessary. Rotom has a beautiful way of saying "screw you" with Thunderbolt just fine. I'd actually consider Volt Switch despite it being predictable. It just helps add momentum to the team and people may suspect the Volt-turn strategy falsely which gives Infernape a little shock value (someone may use HP Grass thinking they'll hit rotom super effective and get a surprise). Speaking of Hidden Power Grass... I'd use it over Ice. You're sporting decent Dragon counters as it is and Rotom hits strongly with a Hydro Pump on Landorus and Gliscor. Hidden Power Grass is a great way to destroy Gastrodon sets that come in to wall you. This also better capitalizes Rotom's ability to be an end all to bulky water types.

    I'd try and consider a better sunny day choice than Infernape. Reason is simply that Infernape's role as an attacker with frail defenses means it's usually going to get KOed right after a sunny day set up. If you want to keep Infernape, I'd suggest adding Sunny Day on another moveset on another member so that Infernape can attack and make the holes in threats like it wants to. That's just my two cents though.

    Gliscor would also benefit from a more offensive move set with Ice Fang. You have fire coverage to handle Ferrothorn and Skarmory already. Ice Fang helps you counter Dragon set ups and rival ground/flying types (Landorus and Gliscor) who want to pull off HP Ice or Ice Fang respectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vycksta View Post
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  7. #7
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    Thanks for the comments, guys. Glad to see it is all mostly sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by NACHOE! View Post
    Ice and Water appear to be your overall weakness, but at the same time, these are weaknesses with multiple counters for. Just pointing it out.
    Which is why Rotom is so important. I tend to play too recklessly with him, which is bad. I spent a little while earlier looking into a bit bulkier of a Water-type, but there's nothing that can also beat Politoed as easily as he does. I was considering Lapras, but then I realized it doesn't actually get Calm Mind and that pretty much shot the set I was considering.

    Quote Originally Posted by NACHOE! View Post
    Cheshire
    4. Nature: This could be where you increase you speed though. Have you tried Timid Nature?
    No, but unless I changed the EVs, what would that let me outspeed?

    Quote Originally Posted by NACHOE! View Post
    Jetstream
    4. Nature: I probably would have gone this way too, although, since you're going with Scarf, would the 10% increase really do much? Wouldn't it already outspeed all those Pokemon you listed earlier? Modest could be helpful, so that you have a balance between the increase from Scarf and an increase from Modest.
    That seems like a good idea, but I just re-ran those same calcs from before with Modest instead of Timid. The Dragonite, Haxorus, Salamence, Lati@s, Terrakion and Cloyster all outspeed Modest, while Timid outspeeds them. A few footnotes: +2 Adamant Dragonite outspeeds Modest Choice Scarf Latios and doesn't outspeed Timid Choice Scarf Latios, but +1 Adamant Dragonite doesn't outspeed either. Timid Choice Scarf Hydreigon can outspeed Modest Choice Scarf Latios, while Timid Choice Scarf Latios can outspeed all Hydreigon. Finally, I actually have a small mistake in my original calculation; due to the IV spread Hidden Power Fire requires me to run, +2 Cloyster (i.e. Shell Smash) actually outspeeds Timid Choice Scarf Latios by one point, and utterly annihilates Modest Choice Scarf Latios. If I were to run 31 Speed IVs on the Timid one, it would edge Cloyster out by one point.

    Good idea, but the calcs don't support it unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by NACHOE! View Post
    You're good at team building, what can I say?
    Thanks. It was a long, iterative process.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentOmen View Post
    The only note I can make is that Thunder isn't really that necessary. Rotom has a beautiful way of saying "screw you" with Thunderbolt just fine.
    Actually, against "standard" Politoed, Rotom's Thunder always OHKOs, but Thunderbolt can only do 83.85% - 98.76% damage. Rotom can't one-shot Politoed without Thunder, and that's against the least bulky Politoed out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentOmen View Post
    I'd try and consider a better sunny day choice than Infernape. Reason is simply that Infernape's role as an attacker with frail defenses means it's usually going to get KOed right after a sunny day set up. If you want to keep Infernape, I'd suggest adding Sunny Day on another moveset on another member so that Infernape can attack and make the holes in threats like it wants to. That's just my two cents though.
    I'd be open to that; what would you suggest as a weather starter though?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentOmen View Post
    Gliscor would also benefit from a more offensive move set with Ice Fang. You have fire coverage to handle Ferrothorn and Skarmory already. Ice Fang helps you counter Dragon set ups and rival ground/flying types (Landorus and Gliscor) who want to pull off HP Ice or Ice Fang respectively.
    Do you think it should go over Taunt too? It just kind of makes me nervous not having Taunt on there, but it definitely feels like he needs a second attack.

  8. #8
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    Fair on the Thunder point, but that would also push me to say that Volt Switch could be more beneficial than Thunderbolt. It's obviously a matter of opinion, but Volt Switch does give you an element of momentum.

    I'd actually consider Gliscor a good candidate for Sunny Day. Since you are worried about losing taunt, consider a moveset like so:

    Earthquake
    Ice Fang
    Taunt
    Sunny Day

    With your first turn out buying you Sun, or you can push a taunt if you feel a set up is going to occur. You do lose the benefit of running Protect to stall a heal, so you could consider Protect over Taunt if you prefer. I offer this because Gliscor has better odds of setting up as it's designed to take a hit or two.
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