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Thread: Legendary Pokemon Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

  1. #6251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_V-Creator View Post
    Or maybe Arceus created Mew, then other pokes just came from Mew...since it only said Arceus created the universe.
    Possibly, that's an equally valid theory. Come to think of it, isn't it funny that Arceus and Mew represent the opposing viewpoints of creationism vs. evolution? I wonder if this was intentional. I wish they'd expand on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Possibly, that's an equally valid theory. Come to think of it, isn't it funny that Arceus and Mew represent the opposing viewpoints of creationism vs. evolution? I wonder if this was intentional. I wish they'd expand on that.
    I'm still unsure of it myself. But it would be nice if something would unfold. I'm going to research this a little more.

    The fact that Mew cannot be breed is the concept that makes me question both sides most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    The Pokedex only claims that Mew has the DNA of every Pokemon, which could easily still remain correct in Gen V. The idea that it is the ancestor of all Pokemon is nothing more than an idea proposed by human scientists.
    Or they just think that Mew has the DNA of every Pokemon because probably no one has access to Arceus, since he lives in another dimension. Those scientists could very well regard the Spacetime Trio's very existence as nothing more than a myth, therefore excluding them from the "every Pokemon" that Mew's Dex entry refers to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zoroark View Post
    Listen, you gotta remember these things; always avoid claims of Fennekin being (or becoming) part Fighting-type, don't tick off mods, and NEVER (and I mean NEVER!) suggest that Arceus is the God of Pokemon when Endolise is online. If you somehow make this mistake, run for the hills before he attempts to murder you via tongue lashing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Or they just think that Mew has the DNA of every Pokemon because probably no one has access to Arceus, since he lives in another dimension. Those scientists could very well regard the Spacetime Trio's very existence as nothing more than a myth, therefore excluding them from the "every Pokemon" that Mew's Dex entry refers to.
    True, following that mindset maybe Mew came after the Spacetime and Lake trio and gave birth/evolved into the other pokemon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Or they just think that Mew has the DNA of every Pokemon because probably no one has access to Arceus, since he lives in another dimension. Those scientists could very well regard the Spacetime Trio's very existence as nothing more than a myth, therefore excluding them from the "every Pokemon" that Mew's Dex entry refers to.
    Actually, reviewing what the in-game Dexes have to say about Mew having the DNA of all Pokemon, none of them confirm it to be true; the phrase "said to" always accompanies any mention of it.

    It's also noteworthy that neither the Sinnoh nor the Unova Dexes refer to Mew's DNA at all, and both Dexes only say that it can use many kinds of moves and is therefore theorized to be the ancestor of all Pokemon. Since SoulSilver's Dex data, which references the DNA line, is nothing more than a copy/paste of the Silver Dex data, perhaps the introduction of the Spacetime Trio and Arceus retcons that idea entirely. It works in-universe as well, taking into account to generally accepted timeline the games follow (that is, RGBYFRLG & RSE -> GSCHGSS & DPPt -> BW -> BW2); the Kanto and Hoenn Dexes still use the DNA line because Sinnoh's Spacetime trio is still nothing more than myth. This still holds up even when taking GSCHGSS into account, considering that Team Galactic's plot is never acknowledged in GSCHGSS, meaning that as far as the Johto protagonist is concerned, the Sinnoh Spacetime trio is still a myth.

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    We're assuming that all Pokémon have DNA to begin with. Gears and magnets having DNA is pretty farfetched to me.


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    I would imagine that some of the Mew/Arceus stuff could be attributed to the fact that different regions might believe in different mythologies, the same way that there are different religions and mythologies in the real world. It might be less that the creation trio is "still" a myth in the Johto games, but rather that it's considered a myth in Johto and a real thing in Sinnoh. To Johtoans(?) Dialga and the others might just be seen as "really powerful Pokemon the people of Sinnoh think are gods."

    Even the HG/SS entry for Arceus suggests a "cultural difference" might be in effect: "According to the legends of Sinnoh, this Pokémon emerged from an egg and shaped all there is in this world."
    Last edited by Ememew; 12th November 2012 at 9:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaby View Post
    We're assuming that all Pokémon have DNA to begin with. Gears and magnets having DNA is pretty farfetched to me.
    Obviously, they do. That's how individual characteristics are determined when you breed them with Ditto. Their DNA just manifests their bodies as gears and magnets, is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ememew View Post
    I would imagine that some of the Mew/Arceus stuff could be attributed to the fact that different regions might believe in different mythologies, the same way that there are different religions and mythologies in the real world. It might be less that the creation trio is "still" a myth in the Johto games, but rather that it's considered a myth in Johto and a real thing in Sinnoh. To Johtoans(?) Dialga and the others might just be seen as "really powerful Pokemon the people of Sinnoh think are gods."

    Even the HG/SS entry for Arceus suggests a "cultural difference" might be in effect: "According to the legends of Sinnoh, this Pokémon emerged from an egg and shaped all there is in this world."
    We're dealing with the Pokemon world, though, in which all of those myths are true. I say that to the people of Johto, those Pokemon are nothing more than myths or just really powerful Pokemon because they're not yet aware that some guy ended up almost creating a new universe with them. We see in BW that Cynthia does reference the events of Platinum and Platinum's protagonist; living in a different region does not invalidate another's history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    We're dealing with the Pokemon world, though, in which all of those myths are true. I say that to the people of Johto, those Pokemon are nothing more than myths or just really powerful Pokemon because they're not yet aware that some guy ended up almost creating a new universe with them. We see in BW that Cynthia does reference the events of Platinum and Platinum's protagonist; living in a different region does not invalidate another's history.
    I wouldn't count all the myths true. That's the beauty of it being a myth; you can decide that for yourself. On the other hand, I thought all myths were on the side of "just really powerful Pokemon", that is until the cut scene on top of Mt. Coronet where Palkia was about to mess s*** up.

    As far as I'm concerned, I think there are some legends/myths in the Pokemon world that are true, and there are some of those myth Pokemon that are nothing more that highly-venerated, powerful, rare/one of a kind Pokemon.

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    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people in one region don't think that the other regions' legends exist, just that they might not see them as "gods."

    Even in Sinnoh, there is dialogue that suggests that the creation trio were so powerful people saw them as gods rather than being literal ones.

    In the Celestic Ruins, Cynthia states: "To the people back then, those Pokémon really must have appeared to rule over time and space. Seeing them must have shaken the people to their very core. This painting represents those feelings of awe, wonder, and everything else. It passed that memory to countless people, eventually becoming a myth...That's what I believe as a researcher of myths."

    In such a case where the legendary Pokemon can be considered "really rare and powerful" even by people from their own regions, the differences in the Dex entries may be attributed to the people of Sinnoh growing up with the legends as though they were true and the people of Johto growing up with a different set of myths (and thus more likely to call them myths in the Johto Dex).

    The "truth" of whether legends are actually gods in-universe is left somewhat ambiguous thanks to statements like that, and all I'm suggesting is that the Dexes reflect the ambiguity. (Same goes for whether the Original Dragon really existed until/unless GF actually releases one in a future game.)

    If I were to take these legends literally, however, I would imagine that Arceus's creation of the universe came before Mew, and Mew is the ancestor of mortal (non-legendary) Pokemon (since, well, Pokemon would need space, time, and the like to live in before they could actually populate it. That goes for Groudon/Kyogre creating land/sea on the planet for them to live on as well, if Hoenn's legends are brought in, too).
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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    I wouldn't count all the myths true. That's the beauty of it being a myth; you can decide that for yourself. On the other hand, I thought all myths were on the side of "just really powerful Pokemon", that is until the cut scene on top of Mt. Coronet where Palkia was about to mess s*** up.

    As far as I'm concerned, I think there are some legends/myths in the Pokemon world that are true, and there are some of those myth Pokemon that are nothing more that highly-venerated, powerful, rare/one of a kind Pokemon.
    I just see Palkia and Dialga as creatures who can rip a hole in space and time, but are not actually gods or anything more than creatures who can tug at the fabrics of space and time due to the fact that they are strange interdemensional dinosaur-like creatures. As for the myths, I see most of the myths of the Pokemon world as just a myth, based off some crap that local humans seen and misunderstood. As for the various myths and legends, I see how all of the various legends of the Pokemon world as something our world could relate to, variation in beliefs and ideas, yet the game teaches an important message - despite our various ideas, we can get along if we put our minds to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    I wouldn't count all the myths true. That's the beauty of it being a myth; you can decide that for yourself. On the other hand, I thought all myths were on the side of "just really powerful Pokemon", that is until the cut scene on top of Mt. Coronet where Palkia was about to mess s*** up.
    What myths are untrue, then? We've seen Groudon and Kyogre f*ck Hoenn's sh*t up with freak weather and whatnot, and we've seen Rayquaza stop it. We've seen Dialga and Palkia at the Spear Pillar, we've seen the Lake pixies in the Distortion World, and we've done battle with Giratina. Every member of Unova's Tao trio has been, at some point or another, seen, and two of them have actually been caught by Trainers. The only myths we arguably can't prove true are those that are events, because they are not confirmed to be canonical. That doesn't mean that Mew may not contain their DNA as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ememew View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people in one region don't think that the other regions' legends exist, just that they might not see them as "gods."
    Not once have I argued that here that any legendary is any form of deity. Please don't put words in my mouth. All I'm saying is that every legendary Pokemon does, in fact, exist, irregardless of whether or not people in regions other than the one that legendary Pokemon was found in could acknowledge it, meaning that SoulSilver's Dex data for Mew may not necessarily be wrong, per se, merely outdated.

    Please don't try to turn my argument into something it's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    What myths are untrue, then?
    I guess I misworded what I was saying a bit. I guess I was saying that some of the myths are just that, a myth. A myth is a tale that has the possibility of being truth w/ provision of significant evidence. I wasn't pointing out the Pokemon in the myths as much as the stories of their being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyBlueLatios View Post
    You see... normally people just play the game and believe what the characters say, not go into all these details about it. Its a game... going into all these pointless possibilities is unnecessary. The game will not provide all those extra details just to prove one thing.
    If you don't want to consider the possibilities then that's fine; no one's forcing you to and you can go on about your business, blissfully ignorant of my speculation. I'm not going to stop you. However, whether or not "most people" care about this stuff is irrelevant to me; I think it's fun to consider things like this. You may think it's "unnecessary," but does that somehow invalidate my opinion? I don't think so.

    And while it's fine to take the characters' dialogue at face value, that doesn't change the fact that their dialogue is, by nature, nothing more than speculation and presumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyBlueLatios View Post
    He said there may be proof of Kyurem coming into existence when the split occured within the item called DNA SPlicers and there was.
    But once again, you miss the point. This isn't about Kyurem coming into existence; we know that it did. This is about whether or not Kyurem's ability to come into existence in the first place was at all predicated upon the prior existence of a physical Original Dragon, which it was not, necessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ememew View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people in one region don't think that the other regions' legends exist, just that they might not see them as "gods.
    See, the problem here is that too many people assume that the ability to control time or to create a universe is something that is exclusive to a god, even though that is not the case. Dialga can manipulate time, and Arceus can create things out of nothing. Does that make them gods, or divine/transcendent entities? No. And does that lack of "godhood" somehow mean that the myths still aren't accurate recollections of what really took place? I don't see why it would.
    Last edited by Endolise; 12th November 2012 at 10:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zoroark View Post
    Listen, you gotta remember these things; always avoid claims of Fennekin being (or becoming) part Fighting-type, don't tick off mods, and NEVER (and I mean NEVER!) suggest that Arceus is the God of Pokemon when Endolise is online. If you somehow make this mistake, run for the hills before he attempts to murder you via tongue lashing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Not once have I argued that here that any legendary is any form of deity. Please don't put words in my mouth. All I'm saying is that every legendary Pokemon does, in fact, exist, irregardless of whether or not people in regions other than the one that legendary Pokemon was found in could acknowledge it, meaning that SoulSilver's Dex data for Mew may not necessarily be wrong, per se, merely outdated.

    Please don't try to turn my argument into something it's not.
    I wasn't, or at least I was not intending to. I apologize if it came off like that. I was just trying to explain how my theory that different cultures within the Pokemon world might look at the same myths and regard them with a different degree of truth. In this example that the people (Dex-writers) of Sinnoh write about Arceus as "the creator of the universe" and those in Johto only mention its position in reference to Sinnoh legends.

    Whether the legendaries actually are responsible for creating time/space whatever isn't the point, it's that the different cultures may view the extent of a legendary Pokemon's control over said elements differently. For another example, the people of Johto don't deny that Dialga can manipulate time (the dex stating that it can use it's control of time to travel to the past and future), but they just don't go so far as to call it the deity thereof like people in Sinnoh do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    See, the problem here is that too many people assume that the ability to control time or to create a universe is something that is exclusive to a god, when that is not the case. Dialga can manipulate time, and Arceus can create things out of nothing. Does that make them gods, or divine/transcendent entities? No. And does that lack of "godhood" somehow mean that the myths still aren't accurate recollections of what really took place? I don't see why it would.
    I wasn't saying the histories themselves were any less true, merely that the people of culture A might not think the same thing culture B thinks about what "actually" happened behind what was recorded by the histories and legends.
    Last edited by Ememew; 12th November 2012 at 10:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyBlueLatios View Post
    The game is saying Kyurem came into existence when the OD split its body into two Pokemon, meaning Kyurem is what was left of the OD.
    No, Drayden is saying that. Who, as I have pointed out several times now, only knows what the myths claim. To be exact, he says:

    "As the story goes, a third dragon Pokémon, Kyurem, also came into existence in that era. And there may be proof of this to be found in a treasure passed down in my family for generations: the DNA Splicers."
    When he says "there may be proof of this," the word "this" refers to the idea of Kyurem coming to existence, period. Which it did, and I'm not disputing that.

    "Even if Kyurem really exists, we don't know what kind of Pokémon it is. For starters, the two Pokémon the ancient Pokémon split into are both overwhelmingly powerful. So if Kyurem exists, could it be just a husk--a shell that was left over?"
    As you can see, this is mostly speculation on Drayden's part. He even admits that he doesn't really know much about Kyurem, because almost nobody in recent memory has seen it. Furthermore, when he says "...the ancient Pokémon split into...," he is clearly basing that off of the myth, and as I said, his knowledge of what really happened back then only extends as far as the myth is willing to let it. The myth says that there was an Original Dragon, but does not elaborate on the nature of its existence. Since that myth is all Drayden has to work with, his claim that the Original Dragon was an actual Pokemon is merely something that he has come to believe. IT IS NOT A STATED FACT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zoroark View Post
    Listen, you gotta remember these things; always avoid claims of Fennekin being (or becoming) part Fighting-type, don't tick off mods, and NEVER (and I mean NEVER!) suggest that Arceus is the God of Pokemon when Endolise is online. If you somehow make this mistake, run for the hills before he attempts to murder you via tongue lashing.

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    Ghetsis on the other hand outright affirms there was an OD and Kyurem is what's left of it, an empty shell. I tend to believe him, since he's a descendant of kings, after all (he is, isn't he?), he must know some old royal secrets other people don't.

    Conflicting sources, each one chooses to believe what they want, I guess. I prefer to think there was an OD, but I hope it never gets introduced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ver-mont View Post
    I tend to believe him, since he's a descendant of kings, after all (he is, isn't he?), he must know some old royal secrets other people don't.
    That was never confirmed, no. We don't really know anything about Ghetsis' history.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zoroark View Post
    Listen, you gotta remember these things; always avoid claims of Fennekin being (or becoming) part Fighting-type, don't tick off mods, and NEVER (and I mean NEVER!) suggest that Arceus is the God of Pokemon when Endolise is online. If you somehow make this mistake, run for the hills before he attempts to murder you via tongue lashing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    That was never confirmed, no. We don't really know anything about Ghetsis' history.
    Just that his name is Ghetsis Harmonia. Didn't anyone say something about the Abyssal Ruins talking about King Harmonia when decyphered?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ver-mont View Post
    Just that his name is Ghetsis Harmonia. Didn't anyone say something about the Abyssal Ruins talking about King Harmonia when decyphered?
    Not to mention the fact that the Relic Statue looks similar to N...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ver-mont View Post
    Just that his name is Ghetsis Harmonia. Didn't anyone say something about the Abyssal Ruins talking about King Harmonia when decyphered?
    This was just some speculation of mine. The Abyssal Ruins text reads "The Great King ********," so I toyed with the idea of those eight characters standing for the name "Harmonia."

    Besides, the whole Abyssal Ruins legend is more directed at N, if anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zoroark View Post
    Listen, you gotta remember these things; always avoid claims of Fennekin being (or becoming) part Fighting-type, don't tick off mods, and NEVER (and I mean NEVER!) suggest that Arceus is the God of Pokemon when Endolise is online. If you somehow make this mistake, run for the hills before he attempts to murder you via tongue lashing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    This was just some speculation of mine. The Abyssal Ruins text reads "The Great King ********," so I toyed with the idea of those eight characters standing for the name "Harmonia."

    Besides, the whole Abyssal Ruins legend is more directed at N, if anyone.
    Oh, I see. But it does make sense, the Ancient Crown even looks exactly like the one Ghetsis puts on N's head in the BW intro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ver-mont View Post
    Oh, I see. But it does make sense, the Ancient Crown even looks exactly like the one Ghetsis puts on N's head in the BW intro.
    Indeed it does, but until anything is confirmed, it's all just speculation fodder. :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zoroark View Post
    Listen, you gotta remember these things; always avoid claims of Fennekin being (or becoming) part Fighting-type, don't tick off mods, and NEVER (and I mean NEVER!) suggest that Arceus is the God of Pokemon when Endolise is online. If you somehow make this mistake, run for the hills before he attempts to murder you via tongue lashing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Indeed it does, but until anything is confirmed, it's all just speculation fodder. :P
    And since I don't think it's likely we'll visit Unova again... oh well. At least it's a nice theory.

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    Was prepping for a long save scrumming to get a good IV Latios. On my 3rd try, I threw a Quick Ball on my first turn. Quick Ball caught it. I took a look at it's stats. It's Speed was flawless and the other stats were in the high 20s aside the Defense.

    Very lucky day indeed.


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