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Thread: The case of George Zimmerman and deadly "stand your ground."

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Well I would say that we are going through two different process, with a law enforcement officer they go through internal investigations first to determine if he acted properly. With a citizen they go through a prosecutor and or grand jury. Furthermore it may be easy for us to judge that he could have shot him in a non vital place, but we are looking at the situation from afar, neither of us is on the ground with a man ontop of us, having our head beat in, and having to make a rash judgement at that moment.
    Which is why I use the disclaimer that with what I've seen so far, It's second degree murder. He shot and killed Treyvon (probably) without intent to commit murder. As It stands right now, I could support that verdict. Now find evidence that the situation was different than what has been portrayed so far and I will revise my position.

    So true!

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    This should've never happened in the first place. The police told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon. He shouldn't have followed Trayvon.

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    The Police did not tell Zimm anything a 911 operator did. The operators are no more police employees than they are medical professionals. I could be a 911 operator!

    So true!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diz~ View Post
    You know, you could be right. Martin probably did attack Zimmerman while running away. But it was honestly Zimmerman fault for even trying to chase him down. Martin probably did attack out of self defense. But does that give Zimmerman the right to shoot him dead. After all, Martin is 17 year old, 6,2 ft, and 140 lbs and quite athletic, and probably take on Zimmerman as a challenge. Zimmerman still lost his self defense for even trying to chase Martin down and confront him. If I think about it hard enough, Martin could have easily beaten down Zimmerman while being chase. Also, from what I notice in the audio log, I think Zimmerman has chase Martin down through someone else backyard. Maybe, I am not sure.
    Who ever said Zimmerman confronted him? And as you said Martin could take Zimmerman on in a challenge, if Zimmerman was on the ground getting his head beat in, and truly believed that Martin was trying to kill him, then he has every right to shoot in self defense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Diz~ View Post
    First of all, the Conceal Carry Laws? It don't exist, at least not from where I'm from unless if Florida doesn't hold the same law. The only way you can conceal a weapon is to get a Conceal Weapon permit. Also, within the audio log, there is the one time where Martin could have notice Zimmerman have a gun. It was when Martin was wandering around in the rain where Martin came close to Zimmerman as he was on the cell before Martin ran away. That the only time he could have figure Zimmerman as a threat. But to tell you the truth, I don't really know what Martin saw that made him run away from Zimmer during that approach.
    You assume Martin ran away, also guess what Zimmerman has? That's right, a Concealed Weapon's Permit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starship View Post
    This should've never happened in the first place. The police told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon. He shouldn't have followed Trayvon.
    He did follow Trayvon, he was told to stop. What evidence do you have that he continued to follow Travon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    The Police did not tell Zimm anything a 911 operator did. The operators are no more police employees than they are medical professionals. I could be a 911 operator!
    Emergency dispatch are not just some random idiots in call centers. They are trained professionals and often are under the same umbrella of emergency services/public safety that a city/county provides. They aren't just dispensing advice. They're trying to keep situations from happening or getting worse.

    Now if or not Zimmermen was legally required to follow the order might be another discussion. But to act as if any random person on the street could be a 911 operator is pretty demeaning to the profession.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    Emergency dispatch are not just some random idiots in call centers. They are trained professionals and often are under the same umbrella of emergency services/public safety that a city/county provides. They aren't just dispensing advice. They're trying to keep situations from happening or getting worse.

    Now if or not Zimmermen was legally required to follow the order might be another discussion. But to act as if any random person on the street could be a 911 operator is pretty demeaning to the profession.
    Whether or not they are trained professionals or trained monkeys, they are not Law Enforcement or Medical personnel, at best they are Laymen. With a little training I can be a 911 operator so could you. I'll put it in perspective. I trained for 4 years(Apprenticeship) and am 8 credit hours short of a Bachelor's degree in Industrial Management, just to be a Journeyman Toolmaker. That's 4 years of training to do a job that doesn't involve saving lives on a regular basis.

    A 911 Operator has to have...
    http://education-portal.com/articles...ispatcher.html

    No formal training and just 3-6 months on the job training (or Apprenticing if you will) some states require certification. I went through a more intense training program to make camshafts than a 911 operator has to have to take emergency calls. The job they do is in fact very important but terribly under trained, so I am not demeaning the operators, but I am questioning their training requirements. By comparison to the requirements to do my job, a 911 operator is in fact a random idiot, I'm sorry to say.
    Last edited by Malanu; 11th April 2012 at 2:28 PM.

    So true!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    Whether or not they are trained professionals or trained monkeys, they are not Law Enforcement or Medical personnel, at best they are Laymen.
    The 911 system in my county is under the Department of Public Safety, the same umbrella that encompasses the city fire, city police, and animal care. They work closely with those respective agencies to make sure protocol is followed so that a 911 operator wouldn't dispense advice that would be contrary to what police or fire would similarly advice. This is fairly common throughout the country where 911 and public safety either have formal or informal partnerships, though I can't say if it is in Sanford or not since Sanford is significantly smaller in population than my city.

    The amount of training required is frankly irrelevant. If their protocol is based on working with other public safety departments, then they know more than the person on the other end and instructions should be followed.

    Now if this is the case or not in Sanford, or if Zimmermen is legally required to follow their advice, is a different conversation.
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    I agree with that somewhat. Though they work with the emergency responders (Police & Paramedics) They are laymen at best. They are not able to do more than "recommend" a course of action or recite instructions from a 3x5 card. I will disagree with you about how important good instruction is to the job though. as important as the 911 operators job is, there needs to be a way to verify that a standard of professionalism is reached and maintained across the board.

    So true!

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    I am a little worried about zimmerman. Even though he hasn't contacted them, if the lawyer truly knew where he was, they could always send someone to him. I blame the police department for not launching a through investigation. Now, because of their incompetence, an innocent man (I may believe he is guilty, but it has not been proven) has had his life tarnished. This is just saddening.

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    I'm worried that someone may have got to him and carried out summary judgment/execution, Judge Dredd style. One of the worst things is, it may be due to incomplete and faulty prejudicial evidence. If someone is charged with such a serious crime, then why weren't they taken into custody on remand? Not only would that stop them from committing any crimes, but it would also protect them from such summary judgments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post
    I am a little worried about zimmerman. Even though he hasn't contacted them, if the lawyer truly knew where he was, they could always send someone to him. I blame the police department for not launching a through investigation. Now, because of their incompetence, an innocent man (I may believe he is guilty, but it has not been proven) has had his life tarnished. This is just saddening.
    Me too. First Zimmerman states that he is willing to surrender if the police apprehend him, then he launches a website, then he dissapears. Just having to live with the knowledge you killed a teen would eat away at anyone forever...but Zimmerman is now reviled by the whole country, who thinks that he is a murderous racist. Presuming he's not, he's probably horrified that people would think that he's racist, and desperate for someone to listen to him. That is really, really sad.

    And so is Martin's death, more so. My cousin and I go down to the store on the corner to get Arizona tea all the time. The details of the story make me imagine what it would be like if it was someone close to me.

    It seems like people stopped caring about the 'turn the other cheek' principle. Instead of remembering that someone is innocent until guilty, people decide the risk is too great that he is guilty, so they end up going after someone mob-style. I think it's highly possible that he's taking on a new identity from now on, or worse.
    Last edited by CSolarstorm; 11th April 2012 at 5:32 PM.

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    Looks like Zimmerman will be charged in the shooting,

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...oAT_print.html

    I pretty much figured this would happen after she declined to go to the Grand Jury ( If you wanted a easy escape it is better for the Grand Jury to take the fall ). So now it should be interesting to how the facts are presented, and how much we do and do not know. Maybe this will give time to defuse the situation, and prevent rioting if Zimmerman is found innocent.
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    Just heard on the radio that murder 2 charge will be filed and a warrant for Zimmerman's arrest will be issued.

    EDIT: Florida law requires murder 1 charges to go through a grand jury. Prosecutor probably figured there wasn't enough evidence to get a conviction on murder 1. I was expecting a manslaughter charge, but then again, the prosecutor may very well be working with evidence that hasn't been dragged through the media.

    EDIT II: Someone on another forum asked, from here on out, what is going to happen as far as trials and stuff go. Here was a response from someone. I don't know his qualifications, but it seems reasonably...well, reasonable.

    He will be booked and processed at the jail, then have to go before a judge for his first appearance where he can be granted a pre-trial bond.

    Since Second Degree Murder with a Firearm is punishable by life, he is not entitled to bond as a matter of right, however, a judge has the discretion to grant him bond. If the initial appearance judge decides to hold him without bond, and the State seeks to continue to hold him without bond pending trial, the State will have to put forward evidence at a pretrial hearing that the proof of his guilt is evident, and the presumption of guilt (based upon the evidence) is great. Even if the State does this, the judge still has the discretion to grant him bond before the trial. He will also have to retain a lawyer, or have one appointed for him if he is indigent.

    He has a right to a speedy trial within 175 days. This right can be waived by his lawyer if the case needs additional time to be prepared. Prior to the trial, his lawyers will conduct discovery, including deposing the State's witnesses.

    The defendant will probably file a Motion to Dismiss the charge pursuant to Stand Your Ground. At the hearing at the Motion to Dismiss, the defendant will have to establish, by a preponderance of the evidence, that he is immune from prosecution because he was acting under Stand Your Ground. This hearing is done with a judge, not a jury. If the State carries the burden, although the charges against the defendant are not dismissed, the Defendant can still raise the defense at his jury trial and the State has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that, first, he committed Second Degree Murder and second, that he was not acting in self defense.

    Manslaughter is a lesser included offense to Second Degree Murder, so, even if the State fails to prove that he committed Second Degree Murder, he can be convicted of any of the lesser included offenses.

    It is important to note that Second Degree Murder with a Firearm falls under Florida's 10/20/Life law - meaning that if he is convicted under 10/20/Life, he must be sentenced to at least 25 years in prison, with a maximum of Life. Florida does not have a parole system. That sentence would be a minimum mandatory sentence, meaning that he would have to serve 100% of his sentence. Manslaughter with a Firearm does NOT fall under 10/20/Life.
    Last edited by randomspot555; 12th April 2012 at 12:00 AM.
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    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im....pdf?hpt=hp_t1

    Based on the description of the charge, do you guys believe it is reasonable? I was surprised it was 2nd degree charge rather than manslaughter imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cur View Post
    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im....pdf?hpt=hp_t1

    Based on the description of the charge, do you guys believe it is reasonable? I was surprised it was 2nd degree charge rather than manslaughter imo.
    I just saw one of the Martin family lawyers say that, in Florida, "lesser" charges are automatically included within greater charges. So murder degree 2 also encompasses voluntary manslaughter or something like that. The jury can also return and decide on a lesser charge if a juror makes that motion. (according to whoever the Florida lawyer is on MSNBC right now)

    The general speculation is that the special prosecutor is working with evidence that hasn't been dragged into the media. They didn't give many details at the press conference about what evidence they do have. But one of the things missing so far is the autopsy report. There could be any number of things they also have such as witnesses, forensics, expert analyses, and so on.

    As the legal process unfolds, the defense is going to file motions and get all the evidence the prosecution has.

    The charge is certainly reasonable because prosecutors don't like filing charges they don't think they can win. If I had to take a guess, I'd bet the special prosecutor is looking at a run for higher office and is looking to enforce her "tough on crime" image.

    However, Zimmerman also is someone who has no criminal record (EDIT: Okay, he had charges in two separate cases before if I remember correctly, but they were dismissed). If this special prosecutor turned up what she turned up at the beginning of this, Zimmerman could've gotten out with a plea deal. Now that the case has blown up, I don't see how this doesn't go to trial.

    But before it goes to trial, the defense will file all types of motions to delay (which is fine and their right) to properly prepare their case. They'll likely file a charge to dismiss the charges, file a change of venue, and so on.
    Last edited by randomspot555; 12th April 2012 at 3:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond, king of ducks View Post
    "BAAAAAAWWWWWWW, KILLING IS NEVER RIGHT!!"

    If I ever had to kill someone to defend myself (or someone else, for that matter) I wouldn't regret it one little bit. The lives of criminal scum are worth less than nothing when good and decent people are at risk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Who ever said Zimmerman confronted him? And as you said Martin could take Zimmerman on in a challenge, if Zimmerman was on the ground getting his head beat in, and truly believed that Martin was trying to kill him, then he has every right to shoot in self defense.
    First off, let me restate while I seek out the facts, in the audio log, Zimmerman probably did not follow him at first. Martin went up to Zimmer while he on the phone. During the audio in the phone, Zim said Martin ran away to some back entrance. Zim chase after him on foot while talking to the phone operator. After that, The audio was turn off. By chasing Martin, Zimmer is basically trying to face Martin, Martin probably turn around and just beat on him down until Zim pull out his gun and shot him in the chest while Zim was on the ground. One witness report said Zimmer who in a red jacket was on the ground being wail on by Martin. So you can basically say Zimmer is getting a beat down for chasing him in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    You assume Martin ran away, also guess what Zimmerman has? That's right, a Concealed Weapon's Permit.
    I didn't said whether or not Zim have a weapon permit, you claim that he must conceal his weapon. I decide to remedy that by he doesn't need to since there isn't a state law that I know of that one must conceal a weapon. In fact, it would have been worse off for him if he did conceal his weapon without a permit.

    Also, I didn't assume Martin ran away, he did ran away because Zimmer said that in the phone of the audio log.

    Try looking, and listening at the evidence. Maybe you can find more of the truth while listening to the audio log.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aVwPqXc-bk
    Last edited by Diz~; 12th April 2012 at 7:16 AM.
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    I haven't been commenting much in this thread but Id be pretty happy with life for Zimmerman.

    @ Raymond. You didn't know George Zimmerman. He has been charged with domestic violence. The pictures you saw of Trayvons account were fakes. Seriously, you didn't know Trayvon or Zimmerman and who cares if Trayvon smoked weed? My mom smokes weed. Ive smoked weed. My dads smoked weed. All my friends smoke weed. It doesn't make them criminals that deserve to die.
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    Told ya! 2nd degree murder. The charge fits the incident.

    So true!

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    Well, at least he is in jail. He currently is safer there than actually being outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIA View Post
    I haven't been commenting much in this thread but Id be pretty happy with life for Zimmerman.

    @ Raymond. You didn't know George Zimmerman. He has been charged with domestic violence. The pictures you saw of Trayvons account were fakes. Seriously, you didn't know Trayvon or Zimmerman and who cares if Trayvon smoked weed? My mom smokes weed. Ive smoked weed. My dads smoked weed. All my friends smoke weed. It doesn't make them criminals that deserve to die.
    Kill dem potheads :P. *sarcasm*

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    7, I'm pretty sure life is pretty hard to get when 2nd degree is the charge. 2nd degree murder is intent to do harm without intent to commit murder. Facts that will work in Zimm's favor is he relinquished his weapon and cooperated with the police. after the shooting, he also willingly turned himself in.

    Now I realize he IS a very notorious individual presently and a lynching is not fun for one in his situation. But he is not ACTING like someone who committed murder. Going incommunicado is not an admission of guilt on his part either, the less you say to the media per trial the better. This way there is no chance of saying something that could be used against you.

    He is playing this pretty close to textbook. I'll wager he gets a minimum sentence IF his defense doesn't make a major blunder.

    So true!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanu View Post
    7, I'm pretty sure life is pretty hard to get when 2nd degree is the charge. 2nd degree murder is intent to do harm without intent to commit murder. Facts that will work in Zimm's favor is he relinquished his weapon and cooperated with the police. after the shooting, he also willingly turned himself in.

    Now I realize he IS a very notorious individual presently and a lynching is not fun for one in his situation. But he is not ACTING like someone who committed murder. Going incommunicado is not an admission of guilt on his part either, the less you say to the media per trial the better. This way there is no chance of saying something that could be used against you.

    He is playing this pretty close to textbook. I'll wager he gets a minimum sentence IF his defense doesn't make a major blunder.
    I don't know what second degree murder means, I do know there is planned murder, incidental and accidental. Not knowing the juridical terms in the US doesn't make this much easier for me as the types of murders are described here rather then numbered. I also think it is stupid people think the guy is white, considering he seems latino to me.
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    2nd degree is "Intent to inflict grievous bodily harm short of death". Zimmerman shot Trayvon 'allegedly' during a physical altercation when he felt his life was in danger. He has already pretty much confirmed that with police by claiming self defense.

    So true!

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    Loosely, based on Florida law:

    Murder 1: unlawful homicide. Requires intent and premeditation (means the person, if convicted, planned the homicide and intended to cause harm to the person). In Florida, you must use a grand jury to get a Murder 1 charge

    Murder 2: Requires intent to cause harm resulting in a death.

    Manslaughter, voluntary: Committing an act that results in a death, but you didn't intend to harm or kill. (this is a very poorly worded explanation. someone else feel free to correct me)

    Manslaughter, involuntary: Unintentionally committing an act that caused harm and results in death (this is pretty common in cases such as an accidental death if a driver hits someone with a car)
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    Well, Zimmerman did pull out his weapon and shot Martin in the chest at the last second while getting a beat down in the middle of a neighborhood. Zimmerman probably felt that his life was truly in danger during that time. It could have been easily avoided if he didn't chase Martin down if he just listen to the damn operator. No one would have been in jail or 6 foot under.

    Also, there seem to be more truth in this video with Martin's girlfriend testifying. Although I don't like that Al Sharpton guy for some reason with racial profiling since it doesn't seem to be racist profiling to me with this entire case.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kevsJ...eature=related



    Also, what the hell is wrong with this video? A black version of the KKK?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEYZm...eature=related

    It seem there even more truth in here, where his parent claim Martin is just going to the store. Guess that where he got his skittle.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK3Zd...eature=related
    Last edited by Diz~; 12th April 2012 at 11:38 PM.
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