Community POTW #65

[Zachmac]

Koffing's got base 95 defense. That's pretty good for little cup, at least from my knowledge. Maybe you should include pre-evolution corner. Smogon suggest that it's best running Resttalk/Will-o-Wisp/Clear Smog, but hey, what do I know about LC? Physically defensive with eviolite, obviously. Could probably work in NU as well, but that's Weezing's job.

Weezig, the Icon pokemon of Smogon,

That's Koffing. Just saying.

Even Abra is a threat to the poison cloud.

You still have to admit that Abra has 100+ special attack and psychic STAB.

I still do agree with you though. If you use Weezing, use it for it's defense stat.

[Zodiac Meteor]

Koffing's got base 95 defense. That's pretty good for little cup, at least from my knowledge. Maybe you should include pre-evolution corner. Smogon suggest that it's best running Resttalk/Will-o-Wisp/Clear Smog, but hey, what do I know about LC? Physically defensive with eviolite, obviously. Could probably work in NU as well, but that's Weezing's job.That's Koffing. Just saying.You still have to admit that Abra has 100+ special attack and psychic STAB.

I still do agree with you though. If you use Weezing, use it for it's defense stat.

Actually, just ran some tests involving Eviolite Koffing vs. Weezing when it comes to defense. Koffing can actually take more hits than Weezing, making it a slightly better physical wall, however, Koffing won't be able to use items.
On the flip side, Koffing has less HP thus making Pain Split more effective.

Evioite Koffing is viable.

Edit: Wow, in a way, Koffing is better at walling than Weezing. Max special attack Abra vs. Max special defense Koffing is a 2 hit KO, surviving barely in red.

[grantholomew]

Actually, just ran some tests involving Eviolite Koffing vs. Weezing when it comes to defense. Koffing can actually take more hits than Weezing, making it a slightly better physical wall, however, Koffing won't be able to use items.
On the flip side, Koffing has less HP thus making Pain Split more effective.

Evioite Koffing is viable.

Yeah Koffing can be pretty bulky but unless you're in the Little Cup it's best to stick with Weezing for its Leftovers/Black Sludge. Here's a good Little Cup Koffing set.

Smogon
Koffing @ Eviolite
Trait: Ability
EVs: 196 HP/76 Def/236 SDef
Careful (+SDef, -Atk)
- Sludge Bomb
- Toxic/Will O’ Wisp
- Clear Smog
- Rest/Pain Split

[Zachmac]

Though unlike Koffing, Weezing can actually do damage outside of status.

I guess Koffing is better if you want a more defensive approach, though.

[Blue Harvest]

Koffing doesn't really take hits better. Its defenses with Eviolite end at 40/167/76 which is ok, except it lacks Leftovers and its HP sucks. It takes Special hits worse and Physical hits only a little better which again isn't that great due to lack of Leftovers.

Oh, and its offenses are dwarfed by Blissey. You don't ever want to envy Blissey's offenses.

[Zodiac Meteor]

Koffing doesn't really take hits better. Its defenses with Eviolite end at 40/167/76 which is ok, except it lacks Leftovers and its HP sucks. It takes Special hits worse and Physical hits only a little better which again isn't that great due to lack of Leftovers.

Actually it can take both physical and special attacks better. Lower HP isn't a bad thing because of Pain Split, but isn't a good thing either. Trading one for another.

Oh, and its offenses are dwarfed by Blissey. You don't ever want to envy Blissey's offenses.

Offenses as in Seismic Toss spam? Hell, Blissey has around the same special attack as Weezing.

Using Weezing as offense is a terrible idea, being a physical wall with burn AND removes stats boost with moves like Clear Smog and Haze? It stops setups in their place. Not to mention it's a wall that can stop walls with Torment and Taunt. Kills any sleep talker. It stops teams from rolling your Pokemon through spikes.

I'm not saying it can't go offensive but it's uses is better off doing what it does best, a wall.

lol, envy Blissey's offenses, do you even know how walling works? You know, if a Pokemon has a massively huge special attack of 85 with NO boosting moves, it's best used as an attacker!
Offensive Blissey, because when I think Blissey, I give it moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide, Wild Charge and Present. Why not? Did ya see dat that 10 physical attack? With STAB present I have a 10% chance to bust out 120 base damage! Oh and 20% chance to heal my opponent 50% health.
I did some calcs and it takes 10 hits to kill Sunkern with Rock Slide, yay! Get this, only 2 hits to kill Pichu with Earthquake! Poor Pichu's 20/15/30 defenses it never stood a chance.
With that 75 special attack, it's obviously a special attacker, silly me, give it specs and teach it Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadowball and Hyper Beam.

[Montresor]

I do not suck dick!

well since you are making a point to say it, you obviously do, but that's ok i won't judge.

[Blue Harvest]

Actually it can take both physical and special attacks better. Lower HP isn't a bad thing because of Pain Split, but isn't a good thing either. Trading one for another.

No, sorry.. you're wrong. It takes Special Hits worse and Physical hits about as well (taking into account Leftovers). As for the rest of your post.. I'm pretty sure you either misread or otherwise ignored mine. I literally said nothing about offensive Weezing. In fact I never even mentioned Weezing. I was talking about how bad Koffing is. Koffing has pathetic Special Attack, meaning the only way it can do damage is Will-O-Wisp and.. Toxic. Koffing's durability isn't even THAT great due to terrible HP and no healing (Pain Split sucks and is easy to work around)

Koffing is bad not because it can't take hits (well.. it can't) but because it has zero offensive presence. And don't you dare try to say "do you even know how walling works?". All walls need to in some way threaten their counters. Skarmory Spikes + Whirlwinds (and STAB Brave Bird). Ferrothorn Power Whip + Gyro Balls, even Twave + Leech Seed. Blissey Seismic Tosses, which generally 3HKOs most switch ins with Stealth Rocks. Rotom has Hydro Pump + Volt Switch. Gliscor gets STAB Earthquake + Toxic or Taunt. Tentacruel gets STAB Scald + Toxic Spikes. All walls need to be useful in the turns they spend being countered (aka the turn the opponent switches out). They must set up hazards, or in some way do damage to what counters them or else they are useless.

Koffing is crap because all it does is Will-O-Wisp and die. Its defenses aren't even that good. Don't even use Koffing outside of Little Cup.

[Zodiac Meteor]

well since you are making a point to say it, you obviously do, but that's ok i won't judge.

Location: Emo Cave
Looking for report button but found that instead. Interesting.

No, sorry.. you're wrong. It takes Special Hits worse and Physical hits about as well (taking into account Leftovers).

I double checked calcs and you're right, Koffing takes 2% more damage against special attacks. I don't know how I missed that.

Pain Split by far isn't the best recovery move, but easy to work around? Switch in a Pokemon with low HP to take Pain Split, while spikes are up... Pain Split is a great move for Weezing.

Lastly, Zero offensive presence? *Looks at Skarmory and Deoyxs-D* Meh, I disagree on that. I prefer Taunt over Brave Bird to stop the ever so popular Ferrothorn.

[Ilan]

Location: Emo Cave
Looking for report button but found that instead. Interesting.

I double checked calcs and you're right, Koffing takes 2% more damage against special attacks. I don't know how I missed that.

Pain Split by far isn't the best recovery move, but easy to work around? Switch in a Pokemon with low HP to take Pain Split, while spikes are up... Pain Split is a great move for Weezing.

Lastly, Zero offensive presence? *Looks at Skarmory and Deoyxs-D* Meh, I disagree on that. I prefer Taunt over Brave Bird to stop the ever so popular Ferrothorn.

YOU use taunt... btw ferrothorn can be whirlwinded or spiked...

deoxys-D can always use calm mind or night shade (like chansey and dusclops who are both really good)

[Zachmac]

Lastly, Zero offensive presence? *Looks at Skarmory and Deoyxs-D* Meh, I disagree on that. I prefer Taunt over Brave Bird to stop the ever so popular Ferrothorn.

Deoxys-D is usually used as a lead instead of a wall anyway, and it just spikes and screens until it's down. Skarmory can still threaten it's counters with whirlwind.

YOU use taunt... btw ferrothorn can be whirlwinded or spiked...

Actually, taunt turns Ferrothorn into a set up fodder, since Skarmory x4 resist both of it's attacks. Besides, it stops ferrothorn from getting and SR, T-wave, or an extra layer of spikes before being hit by whirlwind.

[jesusfreak94]

Lastly, Zero offensive presence? *Looks at Skarmory and Deoyxs-D* Meh, I disagree on that. I prefer Taunt over Brave Bird to stop the ever so popular Ferrothorn.

If you're using Taunt on Skarmory instead of Brave Bird, you're just asking for the opponent to Taunt Skarm and force you into Struggle. In addition to what BH was saying, walls also generally need to run some sort of offensive utility (Skarm's Brave Bird, Ferro's Gyro Ball/Power Whip, Jellicent's Scald, Blissey's Seismic Toss/Flamethrower/whatever, etc.) to keep from being Taunt bait, and while they're running that offensive utility move, they might as well be good at it. While Weezing can do that fairly well with a decent base 85 SpA stat and a solid STAB move, as well as decent coverage moves, Koffing cannot.

Oh yeah, and posting this...

lol, envy Blissey's offenses, do you even know how walling works? You know, if a Pokemon has a massively huge special attack of 85 with NO boosting moves, it's best used as an attacker!
Offensive Blissey, because when I think Blissey, I give it moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide, Wild Charge and Present. Why not? Did ya see dat that 10 physical attack? With STAB present I have a 10% chance to bust out 120 base damage! Oh and 20% chance to heal my opponent 50% health.
I did some calcs and it takes 10 hits to kill Sunkern with Rock Slide, yay! Get this, only 2 hits to kill Pichu with Earthquake! Poor Pichu's 20/15/30 defenses it never stood a chance.
With that 75 special attack, it's obviously a special attacker, silly me, give it specs and teach it Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadowball and Hyper Beam.

...was a really bad idea. You could have left that part out, still made the same point, and not sounded like such a smart aleck.

[Melonhead215]

NOPE

10char

I give up.

[Zachmac]

Quick, we need some gas puns!

Um....Kick Gas?

[Melonhead215]

Quick, we need some gas puns!

Um....Kick Gas?

Is there a "post twice within 5 minutes in same forum" rule? Tell me if there is ._.

Gass Cannon
I hope that Turtwig brought it's gas mask
Cargastrophe (can't spell that great, might be pun gone wrong)

[Kindrindra]

I'd just like to say that Umbreon and Weezing make one of the best Wall combinations ever.

The two quite litterally completely cover eachother's weaknesses- Umbreon is immune to Weezing's sole weakness in Psychic (and most psychic move users are special attackers, which is great when you consider Umbreon's godly special defense) while Weezing resists both of Umbreon's weaknesses in Bug and Fighting (And, again, Fighting and Bug type attackers are typically physical. However, the lower teirs have a lot of specially focused bug-type attackers, such as Venomoth, Yanmega, and Galvantula). But the combo doesn't end with their typing and complementary defensive stats- Weezing has no way to heal itself outside of Pain Split which, while a good move, can be less than optimal at times. That's where Umbreon's Wish comes in. The move allows Umbreon to heal it's partner simply by switching after using the move (Or using Baton Pass- And the rest of the team can also benifit from Umbreon's gratuitous healing). The best part? Thanks to Gen V's new wish mechanics, Umbreon's heafty Wishes will actually heal more than half of Weezing's health, due to a higher HP stat. But don't even start to think that Umbreon is all that holds the combo together- Weezing carries something Umbreon wishes (no pun intended) he had- Will-O-Wisp. The ability to easily inflict the foe with both residual damage and a 50% cut to their attack stat makes the combo work like glue and allowing them to do exactly what walls do- hold the foe off and wear them down either to nothing, or until a heavy-hitting teammate can come in and smash right through the crippled team.

[Blue Harvest]

I double checked calcs and you're right, Koffing takes 2% more damage against special attacks. I don't know how I missed that.

Its closer to 10% which is important as Koffing, AGAIN, has no Leftovers recovery. Koffing has only 7% higher defenses which it literally useless when Weezing has Leftovers.

This is why Koffing sucks even at taking Physical hits

Koffing switches in on a physical attack. Takes 50% from CB TTar Stone Edge. 50% HP remaining.
Weezing switches in. Takes about 46.5%. Heals 6.25% from Leftovers. 52.75% remaining.

Ok so Koffing takes hits from both spectrums worse. It hits like a flower with its 60 base Special Attack. It can't even 2HKO Skarmory with Flamethrower. Its a bad choice.

Pain Split by far isn't the best recovery move, but easy to work around? Switch in a Pokemon with low HP to take Pain Split, while spikes are up... Pain Split is a great move for Weezing.

Pain Split is very easy to work around. Avoid switching in your Blissey and its not hard to stop. Much of the time you don't gain more than 30% and the other side loses 30%. While this is nice it won't keep Weezing around forever.

Lastly, Zero offensive presence? *Looks at Skarmory and Deoyxs-D*

Yeah, because Spiking / Rocking / Whirlwinding isn't dangerous? A few turns of Spikes early on is arguably more terrifying than any one sweeper.

Meh, I disagree on that. I prefer Taunt over Brave Bird to stop the ever so popular Ferrothorn.

Cool, but Taunt / Whirlwind / Spikes is FAR more than Koffing will ever do.

Quick, we need some gas puns!

Um....Kick Gas?

LOL

[Montresor]

Quick, we need some gas puns!

Um....Kick Gas?

i second this

[SwiftGrovyle]

Quick, we need some gas puns!

Um....Kick Gas?

The following I saved for the occasion. Laugh hard, if you will:

Laughing gas is laughing at you. As I wall.
Bit of Helium in your way.
Quit smoking, it's nasty!
The pun of a smoke alarm.
I just go BOOM!
Needs deodorant or mint breath (Take your pick)
Gas-oline the room, then strike a match!
Knocks the wind outta ya (or kicks, if you want!)
Tear Gas? Who needs that when you got me!
I am flammable. And you?
Caution: (insert pun)

[Serpentine]

I'd just like to say that Umbreon and Weezing make one of the best Wall combinations ever.

The two quite litterally completely cover eachother's weaknesses- Umbreon is immune to Weezing's sole weakness in Psychic (and most psychic move users are special attackers, which is great when you consider Umbreon's godly special defense) while Weezing resists both of Umbreon's weaknesses in Bug and Fighting (And, again, Fighting and Bug type attackers are typically physical. However, the lower teirs have a lot of specially focused bug-type attackers, such as Venomoth, Yanmega, and Galvantula). But the combo doesn't end with their typing and complementary defensive stats- Weezing has no way to heal itself outside of Pain Split which, while a good move, can be less than optimal at times. That's where Umbreon's Wish comes in. The move allows Umbreon to heal it's partner simply by switching after using the move (Or using Baton Pass- And the rest of the team can also benifit from Umbreon's gratuitous healing). The best part? Thanks to Gen V's new wish mechanics, Umbreon's heafty Wishes will actually heal more than half of Weezing's health, due to a higher HP stat. But don't even start to think that Umbreon is all that holds the combo together- Weezing carries something Umbreon wishes (no pun intended) he had- Will-O-Wisp. The ability to easily inflict the foe with both residual damage and a 50% cut to their attack stat makes the combo work like glue and allowing them to do exactly what walls do- hold the foe off and wear them down either to nothing, or until a heavy-hitting teammate can come in and smash right through the crippled team.

HOW COULD YOU FORGET ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT SPECIAL BUG TYPE POKEMON! VOLCARONA! THE BEST BUG TYPE EVER! ALTHOUGH ITS TYPING IS TRULY HORRIBLE! IT CAN USE FLY! FLYYYYY! AND IT HAS FLAME BODY! IT'S THE PERFECT BREEDING... I think I've gone too far. I like your ideas. :3 However, be wary of Flash Fire Pokemon.

Is there a "post twice within 5 minutes in same forum" rule? Tell me if there is ._.

Gass Cannon
I hope that Turtwig brought it's gas mask
Cargastrophe (can't spell that great, might be pun gone wrong)

I think it'd be better as Catgastrophe. Not so much Car gas trophe.

If you're using Taunt on Skarmory instead of Brave Bird, you're just asking for the opponent to Taunt Skarm and force you into Struggle. In addition to what BH was saying, walls also generally need to run some sort of offensive utility (Skarm's Brave Bird, Ferro's Gyro Ball/Power Whip, Jellicent's Scald, Blissey's Seismic Toss/Flamethrower/whatever, etc.) to keep from being Taunt bait, and while they're running that offensive utility move, they might as well be good at it. While Weezing can do that fairly well with a decent base 85 SpA stat and a solid STAB move, as well as decent coverage moves, Koffing cannot.

Oh yeah, and posting this...



...was a really bad idea. You could have left that part out, still made the same point, and not sounded like such a smart aleck.

Why are you guys talking about Skarmory?

The following I saved for the occasion. Laugh hard, if you will:

Laughing gas is laughing at you. As I wall.
Bit of Helium in your way.
Quit smoking, it's nasty!
The pun of a smoke alarm.
I just go BOOM!
Needs deodorant or mint breath (Take your pick)
Gas-oline the room, then strike a match!
Knocks the wind outta ya (or kicks, if you want!)
Tear Gas? Who needs that when you got me!
I am flammable. And you?
Caution: (insert pun)

Hmm... I think "I Kick Gas" should go after Caution:

[Kraleck]

"Cannon Monoxide"
Stats: Modest, Max Sp.Atk & HP, rest Defense or Sp.Def
Item: Choice Specs
Moves: Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt

Purely damage output. Easy to remember, hard to forget, decent against Trick Room Pokemon when it expires.

Alternate Moves for Weezing:
-Psybeam - Yes, it's weak, but it's mostly for Fighting Types and other Poison Types.
-Stockpile - Only to boost your Defense and Sp.Def, but pairs well enough with Pain Split.
-Torment - Mostly to screw with Choice users.