A Clubsplosion of Excitement! (733)

[gohan5]

No. They are not. Doesn't change the fact that they are humbler than Iris, who spent the majority of early episodes demeaning Ash for his skill(while being an utter failure at that point herself- don't argue, it's true: disobedient Excadrill, weak Axew, and disobedient Emolga), and has bragged about how good she is to Georgia(who beat her twice, or technically thrice).

Trip is rather humble(he accepts that he is weaker than certain people), and isn't exactly arrogant. He considers Ash weak and incompetent, but look at their actual fights? He has beaten Ash badly(thus he sees Ash as weak) and he has noticed Ash failed hard at noticing what his pokemon need to do(noticing Oshawott's closed eyes, telling Ash to train Focus Blast).

The big thing here is that Burgundy doesn't claim to be great. Georgia, while styling herself a dragon buster, lives up to that title(annihilating any dragon shown so far).

Iris brags about how great she is yet is not actually as great as she claims. Georgia doesn't claim to be better than she is. Georgia is also ready to accept that she is childish, while Iris completely considers herself above being childish.

Iris is easily less humble than either.

She didn't demean Ash, where did this come from? She's his friend, saying she demeans him implies she doesn't like the guy. Why would she travel with someone she doesn't like? Iris is humble unless approached by someone like Burgundy or Georgia, who in case you haven't noticed, aren't winning miss congenialtiy themselves.

[00poke_maniac]

I'm familiar with the scene, he's fine. If anything he should be hurt about his Tasting Time, but not even a flinch about that either. So yeah not too much.

But he's physically in pain. I'm not talking about his emotional stress now. Don't get me wrong, I love this scene....but it makes me sad to see him hurt. D=

[gohan5]

But he's physically in pain. I'm not talking about his emotional stress now.

Sure he is, and even if he is so what? It wasn't too much.

[Raptor_Crow]

I wasn't referring to just losing, I was referring to getting his tasting time nonsense interrupted and then having Pansage smashed into him.

And Cilan does not even get fazed. I was wondering why the animators had Pansage getting slammed into Cilan, then I realized it was most likely to show how strong Sawk has become. Just like his battle all around against Pansage and the one against Sesmitoad showed. Delivering a Low Sweep so quick that Pansage is unable to dodge and powerful it sends Pansage flying at a very high speed that Cilan, in shock, is unable to react before his Pansage gets smashed into him. Basically the writers have been showcasing that Stephan's Sawk would be able to put up a fight against Masaomi's Throh seeing as they'll be battling in the final round.

[gohan5]

And Cilan doesn't even give a damn. I was wondering why the animators had Pansage getting smashed into Cilan, then I realized it was most likely to show how strong Sawk has become. Just like his battle all around against Pansage and the one against Sesmitoad showed. Delivering a Low Sweep so quick that Pansage is unable to dodge and powerful it sends Pansage flying at such high speed that Cilan, in shock, is unable to react before his Pansage gets smashed into him. Basically the writers have been showcasing that Stephan's Sawk would be able to put up a fight against Masaomi's Throh which makes sense that they would battle.

Yes exactly, I couldn't agree more. I had no problem with what happened to Cilan, it's not like he's in the hospital people.

[00poke_maniac]

Sure he is, and even if he is so what? It wasn't too much.

HE FELL ON THE GROUND AND COULD HAVE GOTTEN A CONCUSSIOn! *sniff*

I feel bad whoever takes my Dento-doting serious

@Raptor_Crow- probably, but he still got hurt T_T Couldn't they like...give him dizzy eyes or something so I could laugh at it instead of giving him that look of pain on his face?

[gohan5]

HE FELL ON THE GROUND AND COULD HAVE GOTTEN A CONCUSSIOn! *sniff*

I feel bad whoever takes my Dento-doting serious

@Raptor_Crow- probably, but he still got hurt T_T Couldn't they like...give him dizzy eyes or something so I could laugh at it instead of giving him that look of pain on his face?

Eh I could care less, let him be in a coma from a little fall. It was one of the best battles so far.

[00poke_maniac]

Eh I could care less, let him be in a coma from a little fall. It was one of the best battles so far.

I disagree. Dento's one-sided fight with the leaf in his stew was the best. :P

I better stop listening to Sakura Kiss strings vers.

[gohan5]

I liked that Pansage was completely outmatched here. I was surpised with Sawk's speed and strength, but I guess that just shows how much Stephan has trained him.

[Graham Aker]

She didn't demean Ash, where did this come from? She's his friend, saying she demeans him implies she doesn't like the guy. Why would she travel with someone she doesn't like? Iris is humble unless approached by someone like Burgundy or Georgia, who in case you haven't noticed, aren't winning miss congenialtiy themselves.

Regardless, she and Cilan are more braggadocious than Ash himself. At least, in this particular saga. I would like to see them both a bit more humble.

[Raptor_Crow]

I'm all up for seeing Cilan experiencing pain (emotional or physical) because his way can't always be positive for him and it would also humble him. That's why I am really hoping his problem with Purrloin is a serious one.

It would make sense that Sawk's attacks are so powerful and swift due to all that harsh training he has gone through to improve his attack power's strength and speed. Basically all that training has paid off a lot for Sawk.

[gohan5]

Regardless, she and Cilan are more braggadocious than Ash himself. At least, in this particular saga. I would like to see them both a bit more humble.

Now that I will agree with, I was just stating that she's hardly the most vain person this season. And Ash hasn't been that much of a bragger after the Kanto journey ended, not that he hasn't once or twice this season too. This season seems to be all about who can brag the most, and there are a lot of contenders.

I'm all up for seeing Cilan experiencing pain (emotional or psychical) because his way can't always be positive for him and it would also humble him. That's why I am really hoping his problem with Purrloin is a serious one.

Yes, you're like reading my mind now. I've always wanted something to humble him a little more, something even Skyla failed at. I too want the Purrloin thing to be serious, but I figure (if it ever gets mentioned again) it'll be a silly reason.

[00poke_maniac]

That's why I'm really hoping his problem with Purrloin, whatever that terrible thing that happened was, is a serious one.

What about one crossing his path in Sommelier School and making him fail a test? because he walked into the wrong classroom

I'LL STOP, I'LL STOP!!! XDD But I agree, seeing some serious not my fantasies emotional/physical pain would be nice...and with a Purrloin would be even better. I hope they don't forget about that...

[RWB]

She didn't demean Ash, where did this come from? She's his friend, saying she demeans him implies she doesn't like the guy. Why would she travel with someone she doesn't like?

Hm, constantly patronizing him in the early series doesn't ring a bell to you? And Ash responded angrily to it as well.

Iris is humble unless approached by someone like Burgundy or Georgia, who in case you haven't noticed, aren't winning miss congenialtiy themselves.

If you are only situationally humble, you're not really humble at all. Iris is a self-important and pretty arrogant girl, and she, unlike her rival, doesn't actually match up to her arrogance.


Not to mention how hypocritical Iris is, as well.

Iris to Burgundy(prior to their match ending):"I will win this tournament!"
Georgia to Burgundy: "I will win this tournament!"

Iris: "What a child to say that when you haven't made it through the first round yet!"

Yeah, way to call yourself childish, Iris.


Also, it's pretty hard to be humble when your main sthick is to make fun of other people and say they are childish. You, by extension, put yourself as the more grown-up person. Iris catchphrase condemns her as a character very much needing to learn some humility.

[gohan5]

Hm, constantly patronizing him in the early series doesn't ring a bell to you? And Ash responded angrily to it as well.



If you are only situationally humble, you're not really humble at all. Iris is a self-important and pretty arrogant girl, and she, unlike her rival, doesn't actually match up to her arrogance.


Not to mention how hypocritical Iris is, as well.

Iris to Burgundy(prior to their match ending):"I will win this tournament!"
Georgia to Burgundy: "I will win this tournament!"

Iris: "What a child to say that when you haven't made it through the first round yet!"

Yeah, way to call yourself childish, Iris.


Also, it's pretty hard to be humble when your main sthick is to make fun of other people and say they are childish. You, by extension, put yourself as the more grown-up person. Iris catchphrase condemns her as a character very much needing to learn some humility.

When Ash tried to just throw a Pokeball at something without a battle? When Pikachu lost to Snivy? I would have belittled Ash at that point. The fact of the matter was that she was just teasing him and she was grateful to him and respected him, in case you didn't see at the end of those early episodes.

Iris is hypocritical, we all know that, it's called humor. You're taking that seriously? And Iris was right to call Langley out when she said she'd beat Iris, Iris in the second round and Langley wasn't. Besides, when she said that to Burgundy said girl had made the first unhumble move so I don't get what you proved. If Burgundy had been civil so would Iris, that's how it goes with these things. But I understand you just don't like Iris much, a shame but that's fine.

[RWB]

When Ash tried to just throw a Pokeball at something without a battle? When Pikachu lost to Snivy? I would have belittled Ash at that point. The fact of the matter was that she was just teasing him and she was grateful to him and respected him, in case you didn't see at the end of those early episodes.

Patronizing someone is among the worst kinds of teasing there are, entering bullying territory(which, by the way, Iris entered full stop in the Don Battles- recording identity theft and abusing it to glorify yourself and humiliate the actual person? Cruel, cruel move that's horribly immoral). Also, she used the phrase even for things that weren't that dumb.

Iris is hypocritical, we all know that, it's called humor. You're taking that seriously?

It's a personality flaw, and I, as a rule, detest hypocritical characters most of the time. I don't care if you say it's "funny", it's still a part of her character. Even if it is funny, it's still a very unpleasant character flaw(but admittedly, a very realistic one).

And Iris was right to call Langley out when she said she'd beat Iris, Iris in the second round and Langley wasn't.

Bragging about how you'll win the tournament then calling someone out when said person is in the same seat you were when you made the claim? Yeah, it does not work like that.

And if you make the claim be about Iris and Georgia instead about the tournament, you are essentially bringing this back to Iris undeserved arrogance from the Don Battle- where she said "you really think you can defeat me?" to the girl who's technically beaten her thrice. Which loops back into Iris being anything but humble.

Besides, when she said that to Burgundy said girl had made the first unhumble move so I don't get what you proved. If Burgundy had been civil so would Iris, that's how it goes with these things.

It does still not matter if Burgundy made the first move, Iris still proved to be the bigger braggart. And just because the other person says arrogant things, it doesn't make you not arrogant when answering.

But I understand you just don't like Iris much, a shame but that's fine.

I actually love her character design and the game version, and I certainly don't detest Iris overall in the anime. The anime simply mucked it up by making her a bit of an arrogant jerk. She has some nice sides as well.

What I dislike is the complete inability for some people to accept the fact that she HAS flaws. It's what makes her a decent character.

Iris is an undeservedly arrogant hypocrite with a mean streak. But that is an interesting thing in it's own right- but she needs to be called out on it so she can grow- and she never is.

Essentially, I like Iris, even this "jerkish" version. I just dislike that the writers aren't actually doing anything with it.

But nice to see that "Saying negative, but true things about a character= MUST BE A HATER" mentality.



And I will admit that being humble has nothing to do with your ability to back up your boasts. I double-checked the definition:

1.
not proud or arrogant; modest: to be humble although successful.
2.
having a feeling of insignificance, inferiority, subservience, etc.: In the presence of so many world-famous writers I felt very humble.


Trip is not actually especially arrogant, so he qualifies as humble. He has a certain amount of arrogance, but it's very, very limited(to Ash, were it's not so much arrogance as just being -_- about him, and to Bianca- which was understandable with her track record). He is, on the other hand, kind of a jerk. XD

Georgia and Iris are both pretty arrogant, but Iris is more so and can't back her arrogance up. Neither are humble. At all.

Burgundy isn't notably arrogant, just spiteful. She's not exactly humble, either, though.

[Graham Aker]

Well in any case, let's just hope her getting absolutely demolished teaches her something. Given that she wasn't able to do anything at all to Masaomi, and Stephan will...actually y'know succeed.

Ash and Cilan aren't going to call her out on anything. They're far too nice. Iris is NOT humble though, to say she is...is kinda absurd. Ash is humble.

I was actually expecting something from Iris considering how horribly she got beaten, but it doesn't look like she really changed that much at all.

[Caseydia]

The boys don't correct Iris like the others didn't like to correct Brock back then. It's the same annoying cycle. I still don't think that after all of that she will suddenly start doing more training. She might start doing it when they get to the ice mountain, the seventh gym or the eigth. Which I think is a long while.

[Sushi]

...Just a little bit creeped out by how many people are obsessed with seeing *insert disliked character* get beaten/make mistakes/humiliated. Really? That's where you get your satisfaction from when watching this show? Deciding who deserves it the most, then clasping your hands in delight when it comes true? Feeling like the day's saved when a ten-year-old, or at the most, sixteen-year-old fictional kid gets their face kicked?

Uhm, you can dislike anyone you want, but trying to find something inherently malicious or fundamentally wrong about Ash, Cilan, Iris, Bianca, Stephan, Georgia, Burgundy or even Trip is ridiculous, not to mention pointless. They may have ego problems, or have difficulties listening to people, or like provoking or teasing others, but none of those characteristics are utilized to actually hurt other people.

Everyone bar Trip is clearly having a good time - as much as they claim to want to smash someone else's head in, they all end up hanging around together, getting each other fired up for the upcoming matches. Georgia and Burgundy, who're doing their best pretending that they're not friends with their rivals, are staying because they're interested. Burgundy may be horribly rude to Cilan, but all she wants is his attention and acknowledgement as a true rival. She keeps misinterpreting Cilan's friendliness as arrogance and a "holier-than-thou" attitude, which may be a flaw and maybe annoying to others, but in no way is it morally wrong or fixable with b*tchslapping.

Cilan and Iris didn't suddenly lose interest after their losses and stood on the sidelines with a look of utter boredom on their faces, but are very much looking forward to the semifinals, not once implying that they think Ash can't beat Masaomi. Iris is a tsukkomi-like character so she's there to shoot down others with dry comments - that doesn't imply in any way that she really thinks lowly of others, quite the contrary. I think most manzai duos are friends and portray themselves as such in their sketches. Their special dynamic is what makes the audience laugh in the first place.

We know that Bianca's always excitement personified and there's no reason to think she'll leave after the semifinals. Trip may be antisocial and should really stop underestimating his opponents, but even he never goes out of his way to talk down on others, preferring to simply stay away from them instead.

I can see why people aren't fond of some of those portrayals. I'm not very fond of Trip either. But even so, isn't painfully, painfully obvious that there's no "bad guy" among this bunch? None of these people are evil and "deserving" of some thrashing. They're children who want to have fun by participating in a tournament and spending time with others.

It's one thing to be of the opinion that losses are there to help a character, but for some people the line between that and the rather ominous wish for contentment by seeing someone lying on the ground battered is obviously getting rather blurry.

[Raptor_Crow]

Meanwhile I love seeing my favourite characters suffer because I'm weird. Also I view them in different styles- If it's a humorous pain I will laugh, if it's an emotional pain I will cry, if it's regular pain I will think of how much it must have hurt. It's me favouring them so much that I would like to see them go through different experiences. I'll note there's never been a character I've disliked in Pokémon, I'll only go as far as not caring for a character.

I've never hated a character because I don't want to nitpick things from the show, I watch Pokémon to enjoy it.

[RWB]

...Just a little bit creeped out by how many people are obsessed with seeing *insert disliked character* get beaten/make mistakes/humiliated.

Where the heck did you see that? Wanting to see them get comeuppance- as in being called on their mistakes, or unpleasant behaviour is not an obsession of any kind, it's a wish to see the writiting improve. If they don't get called on it, it portrays this as something perfectly okay. To use the tvtropes term, they become Karma Houdinis.

If there actually was this kind of bile present, could you tell me when? Because I honestly can't find it in the last few pages(though I might have ignored without thinking about it).

Uhm, you can dislike anyone you want, but trying to find something inherently malicious or fundamentally wrong about Ash, Cilan, Iris, Bianca, Stephan, Georgia, Burgundy or even Trip is ridiculous, not to mention pointless. They may have ego problems, or have difficulties listening to people, or like provoking or teasing others, but none of those characteristics are utilized to actually hurt other people.

Um, yes, Iris did exactly that during the Don Battles. She also actively chased down her victim. She has a very, very nasty mean streak, which is, an inherently malicious trait.

Outside of that, I'm willing to agree.

Iris identity theft stunt to humiliate Georgia on actual film (let's not forget Luke is actually trying to get his films produced) is deeply immoral and an actual, quite severe criminal act. Had she not been 10, she could have served jailtime for it.

Iris is a tsukkomi-like character so she's there to shoot down others with dry comments - that doesn't imply in any way that she really thinks lowly of others, quite the contrary. I think most manzai duos are friends and portray themselves as such in their sketches. Their special dynamic is what makes the audience laugh in the first place.

The problem here is when these traits get mixed in with equally bad or worse traits. Iris actually behaves quite a lot like a bully outside her "Tsukkomi" role as well, and this was especially notable in the earlier episodes(and then in the Don Battles).

I should know, I've been on the receiving end every now and then.


It doesn't help that her phrase to "shoot them down" is so disgustingly patronizing, as well. I like Deadpan Snarkers, who specilize in shooting people down with sarcastic comments. Iris just isn't that good of one.



But again, that makes for an interesting character- if you actually do something with it. Which the writers seems to have forgotten to do.

I like Iris potential as a character, I like the fact that she has a mean streak. But if the writers just show it without acknowledging it, it takes away from the show.

[RickHoenn]

^^
You cannot be for real dude, right? You're nitpicking on such things, it makes you look crazy and beyond obsessive, come on now.

Now Iris is a bully, dear lord hahaha. Friends tease each other almost all the time...

[RWB]

Seeing flaws in a character and wanting the writers to actually use them? Blasphemy!


Also, Iris has, at several points come off as a bully. It's in the show, deal with it. Ash getting over it doesn't change the fact that she did it. Neither does it make the "humiliate by identity theft on film(supposed to be produced)" moment okay.

Not to mention this isn't nitpicking, at all. Stop trying to belittle me, because now you are being patronizing.

[Sushi]

Where the heck did you see that? Wanting to see them get comeuppance- as in being called on their mistakes, or unpleasant behaviour is not an obsession of any kind, it's a wish to see the writiting improve. If they don't get called on it, it portrays this as something perfectly okay. To use the tvtropes term, they become Karma Houdinis.

No, it's not about that any more. I'm willing to bet some people here are satisfied with certain characters getting knocked down at every chance without them changing - because change has the possibility of removing the source of their complaints which would obviously be horrifying.

It's safe to say that the characters have presented most of their facets for now, disregarding future development for now. So if you're looking at the very essence of a character and don't like it, it's very unlikely that you're going to like it in the future. And that's okay. It's a shame, but it's okay. However, there's something deeply disturbing when someone voices their satisfaction about a character's defeat, the more crushing the better. I'm not one to engage in impossible missions, ergo I won't even attempt to get everyone to play nice and friendly with each other, which would, of course, also be horrifying. That doesn't stop one from pointing out that thinly veiled character bashing is still character bashing and might get infracted if taken to extremes, though.

Um, yes, Iris did exactly that during the Don Battles. She also actively chased down her victim. She has a very, very nasty mean streak, which is, an inherently malicious trait.

Outside of that, I'm willing to agree.

Iris identity theft stunt to humiliate Georgia on actual film (let's not forget Luke is actually trying to get his films produced) is deeply immoral and an actual, quite severe criminal act. Had she not been 10, she could have served jailtime for it.

I'm sorry, but this is just downright disturbing. A little girl pulls a childish prank on a girl clearly older than her. Older girl is annoyed by said antics and snaps at younger girl for it, but, clearly unshaken in her self-confidence, continues to approach younger girl and tease her, evoking various reactions ranging from annoyance to motivated proclamations that she'll defeat her. Unless I was comatose when I got my criminal law credit last year, I'd say the amount of criminality - from both sides - in this situation was below zero.

Your bully theory might've had a leg to stand on if we saw Georgia - or anyone - actually feeling bullied. Becoming insecure hearing Iris' words. Letting herself be intimidated. Getting attacked by Iris despite efforts to stay away from her. That's simply not the case. I'm pretty sure Georgia actually likes Iris to an extent. She doesn't feel threatened by anything Iris says or does because she has no reason to. Iris scares no one and she clearly has no intention of scaring anyone either. I realize Iris is an ambiguous character who clearly isn't everyone's cup of tea. She's prone to being disliked. She can easily catch people on the wrong foot and be perceived as annoying, I'll give you that. But she's not a bully. That's simply going too far.

Anyhow, can we please discuss this elsewhere, if at all? This is getting way too much about general character discussions and this simply isn't the place for that. I realize I'm at fault for this as well and for that I apologize. It's really time to end this though, at least in this thread.

---

I really, really like the Georgia/Burgundy duo. Especially Burgundy with her blue "I'm-in-such-a-bad-mood" aura, wishing for irrational things like curses or that nobody wins the championship. Even Georgia was disturbed... only to join her later after she lost as well 8D They both look so cute in pouting mode.

Another moment that strangely made me laugh was when Masaomi refused training with Ash and Stepheyn. He and Throh'd turned their backs on them and were walking away already, when suddenly, the rocks around them give a loud bang and become smaller, for seemingly no reason at all. They didn't even crumble into pieces as the result of an aftershock, part of them just exploded and disappeared into thin air. What was that about?

Speaking of Stephan... Yukgaejang? What? Poor guy's name is slowly drowning in the world of asian cooking.

[Spider-Phoenix]

Well, I don't think Iris is mean. I think it's just her way to have fun with her friends.

Snip~

This. So much.