Atheist & Agnostic Family

[7 tyranitars]

Dorato: I've been following the case... :/

My 12 year old cousin just told me that men rule, women obey.

It's an interesting situation. He comes from a very orthodox jewish family - one that doesn't believe in evolution, limits what the children are exposed to, including the internet (we're not allowed to mention how easy information is to access through it, for example), television, which books they read, all that jazz. He's a smart kid for his age - he can hold his own in a conversation amongst adults, he reads a lot, he's just utterly taken in with what he's been taught. And it's interesting to hear a statement like that coming out of a child's mouth (accompanied with declarations that Carbon Dating is just His way of testing us). My sister, a biology student in University, managed to get away with one family dinner discussing evolution and the like with him, gently challenging some of his presuppositions, but for the most part he remains within a close nit community, attending a similarly orthodox school. And we, in turn, follow his mother's guidelines on what to wear, what not to do, what not to leave around (there was originally guidelines on what topics to avoid, but my sister kind of stormed through it with her glass of wine fuelled discussion of survival of the fittest and carbon dating xD I don't believe his parents realised, though). We acknowledge their beliefs as different, don't necessarily agree with them, but in the end it's their beliefs, their choices, and we love them in any case.

The restrictions placed on what the children can access to, however, does bother me. Fair enough it's difficult having a relative, particularly your own child, who doesn't share your beliefs, particularly if your belief dictates that nonbelievers are doomed to eternal damnation - nevertheless cutting off your child's access to contrary beliefs and opinions is not only a doomed endeavour, a short term success, but one that breeds ignorance. Only having access to one side of the story robs the child of the ability to make his own decisions. But when it comes to the difficulty of this communal isolation being part of the belief (which I assume is at the heart of my aunts decisions, but I unfortunately don't know enough to be sure, so feel free to contradict me here - but certainly some strands of the anabaptists retreat from the 'taint' of the modern world as part of their belief systems), it falls into murkier waters - particularly in regards to the rights of the parents and the children themselves. How far does tolerance go? I don't believe anyone's beliefs should be forced upon others, and strongly support the secularisation of the state alongside the toleration and acceptance of a variety of different beliefs within a country - people should be able to live their lives as they wish without impinging upon the rights of others to do the same. In my cousin's case, I don't like how his parents have decided to lock-down on what he's exposed to, but as parents, they are within their rights (they're not harming him, and it's a doomed endeavour) to raise their children how they see fit - and the fact that my cousin /is/ smart, and that his older brother, despite growing up in the same environment, has been breaking from his parents hold a little to find things out for himself, offers hope for at least him having a more informed belief in the future. My sister and I will probably still try and engage him in the occasional conversation when we see him, because in the end it can't hurt for him to hear from a different point of view and we rarely see him as it is (we've met only three times during his life- and one of those times he was just 3 years old), but the experience has just given me something to think about.

My sweet sweet grandmother is also a devout nondenominational christian who also believes I'm going to go to hell if I don't believe. We haven't told her that my sister and I are atheists, because it would literally break her heart.

Wow, that was ramble-y, despite how long it took me to write - fail! Self-debating ftw.

O_O That was quite a read lol.

[Sid87]

I'm an agnostic who generally despises most atheists I've met, so I don't know what to think of this group.

[katiekitten]

O_O That was quite a read lol.

Yeah, that got a bit long. Hope it was interesting. xD Took me a while to figure out what I wanted to stress in the recounting of the experience - the novelty of my cousin's opinions was an obvious place to start, but sitting back and going 'awmygawd, my cousin believes such crazy shit, don't you think?' seemed a little bit like a jump on the 'religious people think craaaaazy things' bandwagon, and while I don't agree with his beliefs, it's not exactly nice if I go on the internet and bitch about them. So setting it aside, I tried to tackle another element of it, a part that doesn't really fall directly into the 'personal beliefs' area. Still don't think it's right to cut your kid off...

I'm an agnostic who generally despises most atheists I've met, so I don't know what to think of this group.

But Sid, you like me, don't you? *batts eyelashes* Haha, in all seriousness, though - why do you despise them? Is it a particular attitude? I find quite a few anti-theists a little too belligerent - my sister and I've had huge arguments regarding this. xD

[7 tyranitars]

I'm an agnostic who generally despises most atheists I've met, so I don't know what to think of this group.

That is a rather nice way of introducing yourself..

Yeah, that got a bit long. Hope it was interesting. xD Took me a while to figure out what I wanted to stress in the recounting of the experience - the novelty of my cousin's opinions was an obvious place to start, but sitting back and going 'awmygawd, my cousin believes such crazy shit, don't you think?' seemed a little bit like a jump on the 'religious people think craaaaazy things' bandwagon, and while I don't agree with his beliefs, it's not exactly nice if I go on the internet and bitch about them. So setting it aside, I tried to tackle another element of it, a part that doesn't really fall directly into the 'personal beliefs' area. Still don't think it's right to cut your kid off...

Lol I guese. There are still your family.

[katiekitten]

xD You can bitch about your family if you want, lol. With my aunt's family, though, in the end it's their beliefs, and I'll support them in that - I can disagree, but there's no need to mock them for it/mock their beliefs, anonymously or otherwise. There's a difference between discussing the nature of a belief you don't agree with and mocking it. Hence, no bitching from this end. Not that I had the inclination to bitch, I was just considering the different ways I could've approached the account, and was explaining why I didn't want to go down a frequently chosen and tempting path: mockery.

I find the different ways a person can respond to being confronted by a belief they don't understand/agree with, particularly one they consider extreme (such as in my case), interesting, and was just sharing my personal reaction and parts of my thought processes regarding it. Have you had a similar experience you'd like to share? Was hoping to trigger a discussion on the grey area of raising children, or at least invite other people's opinions on either my scenario, or their own scenarios and how they reacted/would react. xP I should go to the discussion forum, I think.

[Darato]

Dorato: I've been following the case... :/

My 12 year old cousin just told me that men rule, women obey.

It's an interesting situation. He comes from a very orthodox jewish family - one that doesn't believe in evolution, limits what the children are exposed to, including the internet (we're not allowed to mention how easy information is to access through it, for example), television, which books they read, all that jazz. He's a smart kid for his age - he can hold his own in a conversation amongst adults, he reads a lot, he's just utterly taken in with what he's been taught. And it's interesting to hear a statement like that coming out of a child's mouth (accompanied with declarations that Carbon Dating is just His way of testing us). My sister, a biology student in University, managed to get away with one family dinner discussing evolution and the like with him, gently challenging some of his presuppositions, but for the most part he remains within a close nit community, attending a similarly orthodox school. And we, in turn, follow his mother's guidelines on what to wear, what not to do, what not to leave around (there was originally guidelines on what topics to avoid, but my sister kind of stormed through it with her glass of wine fuelled discussion of survival of the fittest and carbon dating xD I don't believe his parents realised, though). We acknowledge their beliefs as different, don't necessarily agree with them, but in the end it's their beliefs, their choices, and we love them in any case.

The restrictions placed on what the children can access to, however, does bother me. Fair enough it's difficult having a relative, particularly your own child, who doesn't share your beliefs, particularly if your belief dictates that nonbelievers are doomed to eternal damnation - nevertheless cutting off your child's access to contrary beliefs and opinions is not only a doomed endeavour, a short term success, but one that breeds ignorance. Only having access to one side of the story robs the child of the ability to make his own decisions. But when it comes to the difficulty of this communal isolation being part of the belief (which I assume is at the heart of my aunts decisions, but I unfortunately don't know enough to be sure, so feel free to contradict me here - but certainly some strands of the anabaptists retreat from the 'taint' of the modern world as part of their belief systems), it falls into murkier waters - particularly in regards to the rights of the parents and the children themselves. How far does tolerance go? I don't believe anyone's beliefs should be forced upon others, and strongly support the secularisation of the state alongside the toleration and acceptance of a variety of different beliefs within a country - people should be able to live their lives as they wish without impinging upon the rights of others to do the same. In my cousin's case, I don't like how his parents have decided to lock-down on what he's exposed to, but as parents, they are within their rights (they're not harming him, and it's a doomed endeavour) to raise their children how they see fit - and the fact that my cousin /is/ smart, and that his older brother, despite growing up in the same environment, has been breaking from his parents hold a little to find things out for himself, offers hope for at least him having a more informed belief in the future. My sister and I will probably still try and engage him in the occasional conversation when we see him, because in the end it can't hurt for him to hear from a different point of view and we rarely see him as it is (we've met only three times during his life- and one of those times he was just 3 years old), but the experience has just given me something to think about.

My sweet sweet grandmother is also a devout nondenominational christian who also believes I'm going to go to hell if I don't believe. We haven't told her that my sister and I are atheists, because it would literally break her heart.

Wow, that was ramble-y, despite how long it took me to write - fail! Self-debating ftw.

It's sad to see when family gets like that over little issues like that. I have two brother and a sister. We all grew up Mormon, but my sister is the only one that goes and her and my brother-in-law are the to the point that it can be awkward at times. One of my brothers lives out of state, but they think me and the brother that live here are bad to be around because we don't go to church and will drink at times, but my brother-in-law's brother who before she left him beat the crap out of his wife and kids, and made them lick pee up off the ground when they were being potty trained and missed, is oaky to be around because he's Mormon.

There dad would also beat the them, and his wife and even went as far as to beat stomp the dog to death in front of them and their siblings (come from a family of 11 kids) when they were arguing, but a few years ago, when he said he wanted to leave the church that was the last straw for them. His wife said she'd leave him and the kids would have nothing to do with him.

Sadly they aren't the only ones I know like that. For those that don't know coffee is a big no no, to mormons, and one time one of my mom's friends took her husbands coat in to be clean and found a receipt to McDonalds for a cup of coffee and it put a big damper in their marriage. Not as bad as his cheating, but the coffee didn't help things at all.

One of my neighbors in my Condo complex also had some LDS members come to her door one day and when she said no thank you, one put his foot in the door so she couldn't shut it.

The LDS church also teachers that Democrats are bad, and back in 2010 my dad was running for US Senate he went all around met all kinds of people that loved what he had to say. Obama, Dan Aykroyd. That's right the president and the guy who's vodka got me so drunk I thought the floor next to my bed was my bathroom. Loved him. Yet members from the church told him you are the better man by far, but I'm not allowed to voted Democrat.

I could go on, but I'll leave it there for now.

My favorite way to die is the way where I stop existing because it's the only reason I'd want to die.

I want naked girl avalanche.

I'm an agnostic who generally despises most atheists I've met, so I don't know what to think of this group.

We aren't the ******* kind here. We put good reason into our thoughts, and don't go and hate on people who do love God.

L.F.D.

[katiekitten]

Dorato: That's quite a sad story. Abuse is a terrible thing. I don't know much about Mormonism, but it seems to have the same isolating qualities - it's really sad that it's divided your family so. What is the Mormon position on male infidelity, and familial dynamics, out of interest?

I really don't understand the close links between religion and republican politics - did the Church define why exactly the democrats are 'bad'? I assume it's to do with liberal policies in regards to women and LBGT rights, but I don't want to second guess - feel free to pull me up.

[Profesco]

Drake Poketrainer, glad to see you in here! =)

We're all around the same age. Apart form Profesco who is like older than Jesus.

Older than Jesus? Pfft. I was changing Yahweh's diapers, buddy.

I believe I've read the article you linked before, Profesco, or at least something on the same subject matter - and as a british-raised american, I've certainly found the response of the state's to the idea of a way of ensuring health care for the poor, and indeed the tight ties between religion and politics, bewildering. The wedding of Conservatism with, at times, extremist christianity particularly. I shouldn't be surprised that cold war tensions are still prevalent in US politics, I know, but to hear open smear campaigns about obamacare being a battle for socialism vs capitalism is surprising. I'm not used to the overtly sensationalist nature of a lot of American news, as well - but that's a different kettle of fish. xD That said, we are certainly not 'saints' here - we have our newspaper conglomerates and tabloids, class divisions still run rife, as does homophobia and racial tensions, albeit occasionally more subtly then in American politics. All too easy to become disillusioned, haha.

It is extremely easy to become disillusioned with our right versus left politics and how little there is we can do to improve things right this minute, but there is also a funny footnote. History shows that the conservative viewpoint in American politics ends up changing to come in line with the liberal viewpoint, it just lags behind a couple of decades. To this day, conservatives will swear up and down that everything liberals think is going to destroy America, but twenty-five years down the road those very same ideas will have become assimilated into the conservative mindscape. =/

The restrictions placed on what the children can access to, however, does bother me. Fair enough it's difficult having a relative, particularly your own child, who doesn't share your beliefs, particularly if your belief dictates that nonbelievers are doomed to eternal damnation - nevertheless cutting off your child's access to contrary beliefs and opinions is not only a doomed endeavour, a short term success, but one that breeds ignorance. Only having access to one side of the story robs the child of the ability to make his own decisions. But when it comes to the difficulty of this communal isolation being part of the belief (which I assume is at the heart of my aunts decisions, but I unfortunately don't know enough to be sure, so feel free to contradict me here - but certainly some strands of the anabaptists retreat from the 'taint' of the modern world as part of their belief systems), it falls into murkier waters - particularly in regards to the rights of the parents and the children themselves. How far does tolerance go? I don't believe anyone's beliefs should be forced upon others, and strongly support the secularisation of the state alongside the toleration and acceptance of a variety of different beliefs within a country - people should be able to live their lives as they wish without impinging upon the rights of others to do the same. In my cousin's case, I don't like how his parents have decided to lock-down on what he's exposed to, but as parents, they are within their rights (they're not harming him, and it's a doomed endeavour) to raise their children how they see fit - and the fact that my cousin /is/ smart, and that his older brother, despite growing up in the same environment, has been breaking from his parents hold a little to find things out for himself, offers hope for at least him having a more informed belief in the future. My sister and I will probably still try and engage him in the occasional conversation when we see him, because in the end it can't hurt for him to hear from a different point of view and we rarely see him as it is (we've met only three times during his life- and one of those times he was just 3 years old), but the experience has just given me something to think about.

Some would say depriving children of a balanced education is child abuse. I wouldn't go so far as using provocative wording like that, but miseducating or indoctrinating children can legitimately be argued as a form of maltreatment. Before the Enlightenment, children (as well as women) were seen as property and could be bought and/or controlled as their owner saw fit (e.g. lack of child labor laws and dangerous conditions for youngsters working in English factories). It was before the advent of the humanist idea that all persons are sovereign individuals with rights. We can no longer say that parents have the right to raise their children in any way they choose and simply expect no objections. After all, the argument applies similarly to parents who choose to raise their children as sadists or to parents who choose to raise their children via extreme corporal punishment. We all recognize that there is a limit to what a parent can do to their child, the difference is in where we set that limit and what we might intentionally or unintentionally ignore when setting it.

Children, as individuals, are not solely the property of their parents. I would argue that they have rights - including education and choice - that deserve to be respected by their parents as well as everyone else, and which demand enforcement and protection by others should the parents try to violate those rights. Toleration is necessarily a limited commodity. Inherent in the meaning of the word is the clause that there are some things that are preferable, some that are merely acceptable, and some that are not - in effect, an ethical standard. If everything is tolerated, nothing can be tolerated since we have given up the concept of the ethical standard. (Incidentally, this is a similar line of reasoning to the one that proves ethical relativism irrational and unsustainable.)

By the way, katiekitten, welcome to the club, ahaha. I'm very glad you've joined up. ^_^

I'm an agnostic who generally despises most atheists I've met, so I don't know what to think of this group.

There's an easy solution to that. Stick around for a few conversations, observe us, and draw your conclusions based on those observations. =)

[Pokemon Geek]

Thats one pretty nasty story you got there Darato. Wish i could sympathize, but as Norway is largly a secular country with religion not really being talked much about in public i cant say i know of any similiar cases where i live. Even so though i hope the family will reach enlightment one day. Same for Katiekittens story.

[7 tyranitars]

Thats one pretty nasty story you got there Darato. Wish i could sympathize, but as Norway is largly a secular country with religion not really being talked much about in public i cant say i know of any similiar cases where i live. Even so though i hope the family will reach enlightment one day. Same for Katiekittens story.

Same here with the Netherlands. Not many people are religious.

[Darato]

L.F.D.

[Pokemon Geek]

L.F.D.

I just had the biggest facepalm of my life.

[7 tyranitars]

L.F.D.

I laughed irl XD.

[Elysian]

Yeah, that one's funny.

[pkmnswampmaster]

Missed me? guess who's back

[Darato]

Welcome back friend.

So about two-three days late depending on where you live, but anyways.

Any thought on 11 years of September 11th?

For me, didn't really think anything of it, till today when I needed to take a lunch order to a oil refinerie my company takes to all the the time, and today instead of just showing ID and getting a badge needing to wait for a while, and instead of one guard there were three.

L.F.D.

[Pokemon Geek]

Its quite a long time ago now. For me as a Norwegian though it was just another normal day. I can understand its diffrent for Americans though.

[Profesco]

I wasn't personally affected, but the loss of life and loved ones is jarring and tragic just as much.

On a related note, I wish the atheists pursuing legal action against there being a crossbeam on site at the new tower would get over it. I'm sure many of those who died that day, as well as their families, draw support from Christian iconography; their having a symbol of remembrance in accord with their beliefs does not preclude non-Christians from visiting the site and drawing support from anything else there (or not there). There are so many important disagreements and examples of religious privilege in the country with actual and serious consequences in terms of education and peace that need the attention of a secular activist organization. This crossbeam issue just doesn't count. It's a waste of time, and to the detriment of the secular public image at that.

[Elysian]

Oh, have something happened?
Hey, Geek. You from Norway?

[GhostAnime]

I had no idea there was a new club here. Damn.

[Drake Pokétrainer]

Hah, sorry that I didn't post any more. Exams, work and other stuff have kept me quite busy.

Anyways, something that really bothers me is all the crap about that anti-muslim movie. Okay I can understand that they're angry about it. But if you come to the point that you kill someone people and destroy embassies because of a movie, it shows that you're not right in the head.
There were some protests here too cause there's a big muslim community in some cities Belgium. And the guys from sharia4belgium showed up (a really extremist group that spreads hatred against us, the natives) and well, did what they always do and claimed to speak in the name of all muslims.

Now that's something I really can't stand. There are a few muslim people in my class and they're all kind and reasonable people, I know they'd never approve or join all that violence and hatred. But the sad thing for all the normal, reasonable muslims is that all those extremists give the common people a bad impression of the islam. I think the whole thing, especially the protests in the western countries are just based on using the movie as an excuse to riot and be violent.

So yeah, that's how I think about it. I hope this isn't the wrong place to talk about it, if not, then sorry about it ^^;

[pkmnswampmaster]

Hah, sorry that I didn't post any more. Exams, work and other stuff have kept me quite busy.

Anyways, something that really bothers me is all the crap about that anti-muslim movie. Okay I can understand that they're angry about it. But if you come to the point that you kill someone people and destroy embassies because of a movie, it shows that you're not right in the head.
There were some protests here too cause there's a big muslim community in some cities Belgium. And the guys from sharia4belgium showed up (a really extremist group that spreads hatred against us, the natives) and well, did what they always do and claimed to speak in the name of all muslims.

Now that's something I really can't stand. There are a few muslim people in my class and they're all kind and reasonable people, I know they'd never approve or join all that violence and hatred. But the sad thing for all the normal, reasonable muslims is that all those extremists give the common people a bad impression of the islam. I think the whole thing, especially the protests in the western countries are just based on using the movie as an excuse to riot and be violent.

So yeah, that's how I think about it. I hope this isn't the wrong place to talk about it, if not, then sorry about it ^^;

That's why I always, always and also always avoid religious conversations or topics unless the people are atheist like me, and eveno so I try to avoid the topic unless it bumps to the main topic of discussion (like here for example)

[Pokemon Geek]

Oh, have something happened?
Hey, Geek. You from Norway?

Yes i am from the cold land of Norway.

[Elysian]

Finally! I started to think I was the only one!!

[Pokemon Geek]

Finally! I started to think I was the only one!!

Nice to see there are others here.

BTW, Bergen ftw!