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Thread: Atheist & Agnostic Family

  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow1624 View Post
    I have a question I haven't gotten a clear answer to.

    If "God" created us, who created him?
    The answer is nebulous because metaphysical, but there is an answer. It's something like saying that no physical thing can exist without Existence itself first being a precondition (in the same way, for example, ocean waves can't exist without the water giving them some 'thing' to exist as). Because of the way God is described (in the popular Western religions), he is by definition this Existence itself. And of course it makes no sense to ask what existed before existence, so God is like a metaphysical event horizon of Being past which it's impossible to see - in other words, it wouldn't be possible for him to have been created. Extrapolate to "eternal, absolute source of X, Y and Z," so on and so forth.

    Frankly, I find metaphysics extremely difficult to understand, so I can't do much to critique the content of such an argument. What we can say to such ones, though, is that logical validity, while a necessary condition for truth, is not on its own sufficient; there must also be empirical validity.

    Consider Zeno's paradox. You want to go sit on the couch, okay? So you start heading to the couch, but before you get all the way to the couch, you've got to first get halfway there, and before you get halfway there, you've got to get half of halfway there, and so on before that, ad infinitum. You're so busy trying to get infinitely half the distance to the couch that it is logically impossible for you to ever conclude you journey; you will never reach the couch! Fortunately for you, reality proves that you can indeed reach the couch, as evidenced by your currently sitting comfortably on it. So while it can be logically "proven" that you can never get to the couch, the logic doesn't actually tell us the truth about reality. The same would go for any logically sound metaphysical "proof" of God; without empirical proof alongside it, sound logic is just self-consistent ideas that don't necessarily translate into reality.

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  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profesco View Post
    The answer is nebulous because metaphysical, but there is an answer. It's something like saying that no physical thing can exist without Existence itself first being a precondition (in the same way, for example, ocean waves can't exist without the water giving them some 'thing' to exist as). Because of the way God is described (in the popular Western religions), he is by definition this Existence itself. And of course it makes no sense to ask what existed before existence, so God is like a metaphysical event horizon of Being past which it's impossible to see - in other words, it wouldn't be possible for him to have been created. Extrapolate to "eternal, absolute source of X, Y and Z," so on and so forth.

    Frankly, I find metaphysics extremely difficult to understand, so I can't do much to critique the content of such an argument. What we can say to such ones, though, is that logical validity, while a necessary condition for truth, is not on its own sufficient; there must also be empirical validity.

    Consider Zeno's paradox. You want to go sit on the couch, okay? So you start heading to the couch, but before you get all the way to the couch, you've got to first get halfway there, and before you get halfway there, you've got to get half of halfway there, and so on before that, ad infinitum. You're so busy trying to get infinitely half the distance to the couch that it is logically impossible for you to ever conclude you journey; you will never reach the couch! Fortunately for you, reality proves that you can indeed reach the couch, as evidenced by your currently sitting comfortably on it. So while it can be logically "proven" that you can never get to the couch, the logic doesn't actually tell us the truth about reality. The same would go for any logically sound metaphysical "proof" of God; without empirical proof alongside it, sound logic is just self-consistent ideas that don't necessarily translate into reality.
    Correct me if I understand the zeno's paradox wrong but if you have a set distance to go then the halfway infinitum doesn't really apply because there is only so many "halfway points" that you can reach before actually reaching the couch. That is proven by 1. actually doing it, or 2. doing math. and If this is correct then the halfway infinitum doesn't apply to anything really because you always have to have a set distance in order to even establish a halfway point.
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  3. #528
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    How the bible is talked, there was life before him, so that's where I don't see how anyone can expect that 1 man created us and the world in "7 days". That parts a myth to me. If you read the bible, it'll says there was life before "God".

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor72 View Post
    Correct me if I understand the zeno's paradox wrong but if you have a set distance to go then the halfway infinitum doesn't really apply because there is only so many "halfway points" that you can reach before actually reaching the couch. That is proven by 1. actually doing it, or 2. doing math. and If this is correct then the halfway infinitum doesn't apply to anything really because you always have to have a set distance in order to even establish a halfway point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Profesco View Post
    The answer is nebulous because metaphysical, but there is an answer. It's something like saying that no physical thing can exist without Existence itself first being a precondition (in the same way, for example, ocean waves can't exist without the water giving them some 'thing' to exist as). Because of the way God is described (in the popular Western religions), he is by definition this Existence itself. And of course it makes no sense to ask what existed before existence, so God is like a metaphysical event horizon of Being past which it's impossible to see - in other words, it wouldn't be possible for him to have been created. Extrapolate to "eternal, absolute source of X, Y and Z," so on and so forth.

    Frankly, I find metaphysics extremely difficult to understand, so I can't do much to critique the content of such an argument. What we can say to such ones, though, is that logical validity, while a necessary condition for truth, is not on its own sufficient; there must also be empirical validity.

    Consider Zeno's paradox. You want to go sit on the couch, okay? So you start heading to the couch, but before you get all the way to the couch, you've got to first get halfway there, and before you get halfway there, you've got to get half of halfway there, and so on before that, ad infinitum. You're so busy trying to get infinitely half the distance to the couch that it is logically impossible for you to ever conclude you journey; you will never reach the couch! Fortunately for you, reality proves that you can indeed reach the couch, as evidenced by your currently sitting comfortably on it. So while it can be logically "proven" that you can never get to the couch, the logic doesn't actually tell us the truth about reality. The same would go for any logically sound metaphysical "proof" of God; without empirical proof alongside it, sound logic is just self-consistent ideas that don't necessarily translate into reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor72 View Post
    Correct me if I understand the zeno's paradox wrong but if you have a set distance to go then the halfway infinitum doesn't really apply because there is only so many "halfway points" that you can reach before actually reaching the couch. That is proven by 1. actually doing it, or 2. doing math. and If this is correct then the halfway infinitum doesn't apply to anything really because you always have to have a set distance in order to even establish a halfway point.
    What math do you have in mind?

    For example, how many points are there in this line: X________________Y? The answer is actually "infinitely many." You can divide any finite line into infinitely many infinitesimal points, including repeated division by two, or halving the distance. Because this is logically sound, we can conclude that to move from X to Y you have to traverse infinitely many points, and such a trip would take an infinity of time, meaning the trip would never end and you'd never reach Y. Zeno used this logical observation to hypothesize that motion was an illusion. (Yay philosophical history!)

    You're right, though, that we can prove his paradox doesn't mean we never actually reach our goals in real life. That's how we know neither logic by itself nor empiricism by itself is sufficient for truth.

    *A fun factoid - the smallest unit of distance measurement we know of today is the Planck length, equal to about 1.6×10^-35 meters, and this distance is currently impossible to measure with any equipment. It is a distance calculated from other equations and figures in physics, like the speed of light in a vacuum and such. It's so small, it's only able to be used and researched theoretically! And even if our technology were to progress by millennia in an instant, it's thought that there would still be no way to measure a distance smaller than the Planck length, just because of the way the universal laws are set up. All of this is very useful, pragmatically, but the above logic is still sound. =P

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow1624 View Post
    How the bible is talked, there was life before him, so that's where I don't see how anyone can expect that 1 man created us and the world in "7 days". That parts a myth to me. If you read the bible, it'll says there was life before "God".
    I always thought it said something like, "In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God," and then later there was everything else. Can you be more specific? ^_^;
    Last edited by Profesco; 18th July 2013 at 11:05 PM.

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    Here's a link to some social science research a doctoral student in Canada is doing on atheism. He's trying to identify different general categories of atheism. As topics for classification research go, atheism is probably a fool's errand; there isn't much to classify, but I guess patterns could emerge just because there's a movement sprung up around atheism where similar people could gravitate towards one another. And to be honest, this doesn't look like particularly high-quality research - maybe because the researchers funded it out of their own pockets. =P

    But! It was interesting to read what subgroups they identified and see if I fit into any one more than any others. I think the IAA fits me best. What about you guys?

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    Hello there. My name is Adrian I'm 14 years old and I'm a proud Atheist. I was on the fence about becoming one in 6th grade it wasn't till 8th grade where I made my decision to become a full fledged Atheist. Since then I feel more free happy and I no longer feel guilty about doing certain actions that is frowned upon my religious family. Both my parents accept that I'm an Atheist but still want me to learn more about the Bible to which I refused. My friends are very accepting about me being an Atheist and still treat me like I'm human. Lately I've been feeling lonely and reallywanted to talk to more Atheists. After deciding to explore Serebii forums I found your family and I would love to join you guys.
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    Don't really know what you'd call me. But...

    For sometime I've been doubting if God does exist. I refuse to follow religion or let it be in control of my life. I grew up in a baptist household. Over the past few years I've just lost hope. Don't really know at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R2J View Post
    Don't really know what you'd call me. But...

    For sometime I've been doubting if God does exist. I refuse to follow religion or let it be in control of my life. I grew up in a baptist household. Over the past few years I've just lost hope. Don't really know at the moment.
    You'd fall under Agnostic.

    Welcome all new members.

    How about a topic.

    How do you think religion will be viewed in the next 50 years?

    For me I think it will still be around, but in a lot smaller groups. I mean even today more and more people are becoming Atheist so if those numbers keep rising we'll end up as I said, even more so with all the people who keep saying God says the world will end on this date.

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    How do you think religion will be viewed in the next 50 years?

    Depending on how some people take it seriously, I'd say some may kill their self. Seeing how some think one man can predict the end. Such as the 12-21-12 thing, FaceBook lit up with Goodbye post. I believe the whole end of the world stuff is to get people to goto church.
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    How do you think religion will be viewed in the next 50 years?



    Lets see, more stupidity. More people taking things serious, people falling for the end of the world stuff. So I assume it's going to fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R2J View Post
    Don't really know what you'd call me. But...

    For sometime I've been doubting if God does exist. I refuse to follow religion or let it be in control of my life. I grew up in a baptist household. Over the past few years I've just lost hope. Don't really know at the moment.
    I hope your hope isn't tied to God, R2J. There's plenty to be found in a naturalistic view of the world and its inhabitants. Sorry to hear about your Baptist upbringing (I mean no offense by that - just that I know that branch of Christianity can be pretty strict and engrossing. I'm sure it's not easy to speak about doubts in such an environment). But you're certainly welcome to any and all discussions here, regardless of your beliefs. I hope you learn, and teach, here. ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Darato View Post
    How do you think religion will be viewed in the next 50 years?
    According to this guy's projections, in 50 years we'll be looking back on religion as a thing of the past. He gives it less than 30 years for religion to be defunct entirely. Critics, though, claim that the sheer reproductive fervor of the fundamentalists will keep the world populated with the faithful. I don't that argument is as simple as reporters describe it, but I don't agree with Dr. Barber either.

    I think, in just 50 years, we'll still be fighting some of the small legal skirmishes we're fighting now, between religious liberties and egalitarian justice. I would hope religion by then is well and truly viewed as a private, personal matter not to be trotted out in public to anyone's detriment. At the very least, I want us to be successful at keeping it out of the science classroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Profesco View Post
    I hope your hope isn't tied to God, R2J. There's plenty to be found in a naturalistic view of the world and its inhabitants. Sorry to hear about your Baptist upbringing (I mean no offense by that - just that I know that branch of Christianity can be pretty strict and engrossing. I'm sure it's not easy to speak about doubts in such an environment). But you're certainly welcome to any and all discussions here, regardless of your beliefs. I hope you learn, and teach, here. ^_^
    Well I have explored different religions in the past such as Juhova Witness, Jewish, and Muslim. But I started seeing how all the religions are all to one god, but beliefs in different ways. And with each religion having its on views, it leads to nut jobs. People thinking everybody should believe the way they do. But no...I just started thinking about how I was raised up on the baptist religion, plus I grew up with two Atheist brothers (Shadow1624) and older is 27. As I said, over the past few years, I've just lost hope. Mainly over the past year, family still drags me to church but haven't been involved with church activitys since I was a kid. The only reason most of my family don't know this is because they dis-own family members that don't believe the way they do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R2J View Post
    Well I have explored different religions in the past such as Juhova Witness, Jewish, and Muslim. But I started seeing how all the religions are all to one god, but beliefs in different ways. And with each religion having its on views, it leads to nut jobs. People thinking everybody should believe the way they do. But no...I just started thinking about how I was raised up on the baptist religion, plus I grew up with two Atheist brothers (Shadow1624) and older is 27. As I said, over the past few years, I've just lost hope. Mainly over the past year, family still drags me to church but haven't been involved with church activitys since I was a kid. The only reason most of my family don't know this is because they dis-own family members that don't believe the way they do.
    Pretty much, I'd be one of the Dis-Owned members. Oh well!

    Anyways, you get use to not seeing that side of the family.

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    You know what's an amusing game? When you read news stories about "Christian persecution" in the US (when some not-necessarily-representative subgroup of Christians tries to push their specific theology into law, school curriculum, or public policy and a court rules that they can't do that), try to imagine how the same Christian group would behave when you replace their religion with any other religion.

    Here's a rare example that made it into real-life! Whereas we usually read all kinds of stories about Christian groups trying to force religion into the science classroom and are held back by secularists (and the US Constitution!), this was a case where a Christian group tried to hold religion back from the classroom - when it was Hinduism. (Although, in reality, the yoga was just exercise as part of a health and fitness program the school in question had adopted.) There are many, many more instances of Christian groups in the US affirming that their religion belongs in our schools than there are of other religious groups claiming the same of their own religions, or of Christians trying to stop them. It gives the distinct impression that these kinds of groups are not really defending religious liberty (as they conceive of it - incorrectly), but rather Christian dominion.

    So I've fallen into the little mental game where, whenever I hear about some new instance of Christians upset at being legally barred from putting Christian theology somewhere it doesn't belong, I re-imagine the issue replacing Christianity with, say, Islam, Hinduism or Satanism, and think about whether and how that difference would change the Christians' response.

    For instance, the Facebook page I linked to above is about the religious support for a public school district in Alabama that's organizing a "prayer caravan" to go to each school building and praise Jesus. So just imagine what kind of Facebook page these folks might make if, instead, the school superintendent was organizing a prayer caravan to go to every school and praise Mohammed. I obviously can't say for sure, but I'm thinking the same folks would not be liking that page. ^_^;


    Go ahead and try the game out for yourself!


    * I hope no one here needs to be reminded of this, but let's not have anybody posting unkind or unhelpful remarks on that Facebook page.

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    For instance, the Facebook page I linked to above is about the religious support for a public school district in Alabama that's organizing a "prayer caravan" to go to each school building and praise Jesus. So just imagine what kind of Facebook page these folks might make if, instead, the school superintendent was organizing a prayer caravan to go to every school and praise Mohammed. I obviously can't say for sure, but I'm thinking the same folks would not be liking that page. ^_^;
    Best of luck to them around Marshall and Madison County xD *******es won't last. Anyways, I go to work, come back out for lunch and theirs this women putting CDs on cars like they were flyers. Church music, seems since all those *******es believe'd in the End of The World/12-21-12, church people can get away with doing that.

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    Pretty sure me & Darato have spoken before, so I'll post here and see if we can finish our talk from before.

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    Welcome Volt

    Also read this on FB today, posted by a friend of a friend

    We learn from history. If a Trojan Horse appeared on our border in the middle of a war, would we let it into our country? No, because we have learned from history. Well, we have a history book that is very important; God's scriptures. So why do we let gay marriage enter into our country? Have we not read what happened to Soddom and Gomorrah? And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that God will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.? God will not protect us if we continue to trample under our feet His laws. Sadly this wonderful country will one day be destroyed because of our own wickedness, unless we repent.
    Couple weeks ago, he was upset his friend got married outside a Mormon marriage to the point he called her out about it, and told her how disappointed he was on FB

    L.F.D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darato View Post
    Welcome Volt

    Also read this on FB today, posted by a friend of a friend



    Couple weeks ago, he was upset his friend got married outside a Mormon marriage to the point he called her out about it, and told her how disappointed he was on FB

    L.F.D.
    Repost the one form the Bi/Les/Gay thread

    And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that God will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.?
    Nobody's pure, we all commit sins in our day to day lives. But, there's no big deal about it. At least that's how I see it.

    We are becoming more wicked, and we daily see more destruction.
    Yes, I agree with this.

    If we want to be happy, we must follow GOD's laws and accept GOD's blessings no matter what religion, organization, party, or group we are a part
    Uh, No thanks. I see no point to be honest, if he hasn't stopped it, then I see no point to follow.

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    I don't Write much here.. Hope you haven't forgotten me completely.
    For the record, I really enjoy Reading all of the interesting discussions you guys have. (I'm too empty-minded to join one)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanima View Post
    I don't Write much here.. Hope you haven't forgotten me completely.
    For the record, I really enjoy Reading all of the interesting discussions you guys have. (I'm too empty-minded to join one)
    Who are you again?

    Just jump in one, hell I do

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    Uhm.. on the first page, I am listed as Adalricus, which was my username at this time about a year ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darato View Post
    Welcome Volt

    Also read this on FB today, posted by a friend of a friend

    We learn from history. If a Trojan Horse appeared on our border in the middle of a war, would we let it into our country? No, because we have learned from history. Well, we have a history book that is very important; God's scriptures. So why do we let gay marriage enter into our country? Have we not read what happened to Soddom and Gomorrah? And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that God will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.? God will not protect us if we continue to trample under our feet His laws. Sadly this wonderful country will one day be destroyed because of our own wickedness, unless we repent.
    L.F.D.
    This is an extremely poor argument on both counts, religious and secular. Allow me to demonstrate.

    From scripture we know that the events in Sodom and Gomorrah preceded Jesus's death on the cross, which was an atonement for mankind's sins. Mankind is, unfortunately, still simply born into a state of sin - each and every one of us, not just the gay ones - but thanks to Jesus we know that our earthly sins will be absolved in the afterlife if we profess him as our savior. (Or somesuch, depending on sect.) What we learn from the "history" contained in Christian mythology is that, post crucifixion, God no longer needs to interrupt nature to hand down divine punishment, so we do not need to worry that things like S&G or the great flood or so on and so forth will happen again. Those awful gays will be judged at Heaven's gate just like everyone else.

    From history, we know that, since the alleged era of Sodom and Gomorrah, there has been plenty of homosexuality, lying, adultery, thieving, murder, other-god worshipping, and all other manner of sinning. In each and every single society the world has yet experienced, in fact. And even here in modern USA, there is so much sinning done during every single minute of human consciousness that the entire North American continent should have been burned in pillars of fire a dozen times over. But despite all the sins across the history of the world, there have been no more calamitous miracles of the degree of an S&G or a great flood. What we learn from actual history is that such behavior can occur without reality-suspending destruction, rather that it is wholly up to humans to police their own behaviors (or not).


    Feel free to quote me in reply to this thoughtless individual on Facebook.

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    Here is the full thing as of now, changed the quots to the first letters of each person' name other than my own posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by S
    we learn from history. If a trojan horse appeared on our border in the middle of a war, would we let it into our country? No, because we have learned from history. Well, we have a history book that is very important; god's scriptures. So why do we let gay marriage enter into our country? Have we not read what happened to soddom and gomorrah? And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that god will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.? God will not protect us if we continue to trample under our feet his laws. Sadly this wonderful country will one day be destroyed because of our own wickedness, unless we repent.
    Quote Originally Posted by B
    america isn't a theocracy. You can't rightfully base all of our laws on the bible when freedom of (and from) religion is a constitutional right. Basing laws on christian doctrine is a slap in the face to muslims, buddhists, atheists, taoists, native faiths, and so on that have no belief in the validity of the bible or the book of mormon. Church and state are separate. That's a fundamental american right. Whether or not same-sex marriage is legalized is a matter of civil law, not religious law. Holy matrimony is a religious matter and the criteria for holy matrimony are up to each individual church. Civil marriage, however, is a legal contract independent of any religion. I don't barge into your church and tell you what to do just because i disagree with it. Please keep your church out of my love life.
    Quote Originally Posted by C
    i hear canada is nice this time of year
    Quote Originally Posted by J
    B, I agree that because of laws Church and State are separate, and that Holy Matrimony and Civil Marriage should remain separate matters. Problem is, once it becomes a nationally accepted practice, there's nothing stopping people from, as you say, "barg(ing) into your church and tell(ing) you what to do" because they do disagree with it.
    http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/Gay-...ail/story.html
    Quote Originally Posted by B
    Same-sex marriage is already legal in several states and I haven't heard of any church being sued in America. As we both have said, the US makes a big deal about the separation of church and state. And that article relates to the UK, a nation which definitely has different laws, especially with their perception of the roles of church and state. I know that I don't want to get married in the LDS temple because I'm not LDS at all. I don't see why the church is so afraid of me getting married in a courthouse.
    Quote Originally Posted by J
    As long as it remains on a state-to-state level there shouldn't be any issues of being sued. It's when it becomes national that that happens, which is why I put up the article from the UK, a place that has already accepted it nationally.
    Personally, I'm not "afraid" or even fighting people who want to get married in a courthouse. That's their choice and they are fully entitled to it. It's when they want to infringe on my rights to live my own religion. I appreciate you understanding that when you are not of a religion it'd be a little much to demand to be married in that church, but there are people who are LDS or Christian and want to be married in a church that doesn't allow it that may not see it the same way.
    As for others, the freedom of speech allows us (and you) to stand up for what we believe in, and I hope you take the response I first made as a way of explaining more about my perspective and not me getting mad at you for posting yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by S
    This is not just an issue of gay marriage. It is a shoutout against ALL sin. Whether it be drugs, pornography, murder, rape, incest, violence, abortion, etc. So who defines sin? Who defines what is right and wrong? Not man, not the government, not EVEN religion. (If the POPE came out tomorrow and said murder is OK, would we go murder? NO because we ALL INHERENTLY KNOW that murder is WRONG.) GOD defines sin. He has given us each a conscience. We all INHERENTLY know that the above-mentioned practices (and many other things) are WRONG. All blessings are based on natural laws that reward us for good choices. If we choose not to obey, we suffer the consequences of our own disobedience. If we allow our country to permit murder, we will eventually die out. If we allow Abortion, we will eventually die out because all babies will be aborted. If we legalize stealing, people will become lazy, wont go to work, and will instead focus their efforts on stealing, and our economy fall into ruin (as well as our safety). If we permit laws that allow everyone in the nation to carry around Nuclear weapons, chances are good this world will explode pretty soon. That is the point of this. When the government legalizes (and encourages) "sin," destruction, sadness, and misery will ALWAYS follow. Well, if you don't believe me, read history books, read the bible, and pay attention to current news. We are becoming more wicked, and we daily see more destruction. I simply encourage all do their part to leave their sins, and do their best to protect ourselves from self-destruction. Alma 41:10 Wickedness never was happiness. I'd just love to see a happier world, but the means we use to achieve that go in direct opposition to the laws of God. If we want to be happy, we must follow GOD's laws and accept GOD's blessings no matter what religion, organization, party, or group we are a part of.
    Quote Originally Posted by B
    Abortion is legal. People still have babies. And I don't think the Bible told us not to carry nuclear weapons on our person.

    Quote Originally Posted by C
    Canadians are moral
    Quote Originally Posted by P
    Just like to point out something: The Bible is by no means fact nor does it have any significance from a historical standpoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by T
    We can always ask god what he thinks....he is really the only one that can give us a clear and definite answer
    Quote Originally Posted by C
    We could ask a Canadian
    Quote Originally Posted by K
    K, I normally don't get involved in political posts, but I think gay rights transcends politics. It's about people. Spencer, please think about the gay teenagers, boys, girls reading this post. Being gay is not an action; it's an identity. And I think reading that your very identity, the essence of who you are as a person, is sinful, leads to the dangerously high suicide rate we have in this country for young, gay individuals. If we want to be happy, we need to accept and love each other for the beautiful people we are. How do you repent for your own genetics?
    Quote Originally Posted by T
    There is both an identity (attraction) and an action (acting on it) connected with being gay. (eg. the Pope was obviously not condoning gay sex/marriage among priests when he accepted gay priests) Using the two interchangeably in arguments either way is a fallacy, since they are distinct concepts. Regardless of which side you're on, some wise words to remember are "A good man can scarcely serve the truth worse than to defend it by ill-conceived arguments" -Henry Eyring (the world-renowned scientist, not the Mormon Apostle)
    Quote Originally Posted by S
    So if i was born with a genetic desire to rape or kill i would control myself because killing is wrong. What about child molesters? Should we allow them to rape our children simply because they were "born that way?" Or should we allow someone who has been a theif from birth to rob from anyone he wants simply because he likes it? Imagine what we could get away with if we justified our every bad accion or decision with "well, sorry but i was born that way." We all have desires to sin, but those who are happy are those who learn to control their appetites and passions. So kari, you're right, being gay is NOT a sin. people don't have to repent for how they feel or how they were born, but if they choose to act on those desires it IS a sin.
    Quote Originally Posted by B
    Stealing harms society because it creates a victim. The same goes for rape and murder. Who is the victim of two women falling in love with each other? I know many gay and lesbian couples that are just like any other. They pay bills, shop for groceries, and vote in November. The other things you listed are wrong and can be proven wrong by the fact that people are harmed. I see no one being harmed by two people loving each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by K
    First off, I would NEVER equate rape or murder with being gay. Apples and oranges. No, apples and something not even remotely similar--airplanes. Even if you believe being gay is a sin, to compare loving someone of the same gender to MURDER is very offensive. And thank you Taylor for pointing out my fallacy--I will clarify. (And I apologize because this might come off as an attack. This is not my intent. I simply want to have a discussion about a subject I feel passionately about). There is a distinction between identity and action, this is true. But telling someone that they must never act upon inherent desires/inclinations surrounds their identity with shame anyway. They feel guilty for desires they cannot control. Whether or not you brand their identity as a sin (versus acting on it), they WILL feel as if God somehow loves them less. Many churches also claim that they treat gay individuals with love and respect, but then tell them they must never act upon their identity. They accept that these individuals did not choose their identity, but tell them they must remain celibate their entire lives (or, choose to marry a person of a gender they are not attracted to). Imagine telling your daughter she can never marry the person she loves most in this world. Imagine telling her she can never raise a family with this person. She will not get into the celestial kingdom because of a factor she cannot control. She cannot get married in the Temple or ever have the wedding she has dreamed of. She has done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve this, but she is denied these things anyway. Better yet, imagine yourself, not being able to be the person that you are. Imagine having to be alone your entire life because you were born with what is referred to as a "weakness" that you can never overcome. I don't think of that as love or respect. I think of it as oppression.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    We tend to lock people who murder and tape up in prison or Psychiatric hospitals depending on the case, but we don't lock or stone gays anymore cause this isn't the old days where we stuff to someone, cause we don't like the thing they do and isn't someone that hurts someone else. Raping and killing someone. That's hurting someone else. Two people of the same gender being together that's between them and no one else has a right to tell them it. Not even with in the last 50 years did we grant couples of separate race the right to marry, but we saw that was wrong so we changed it, as were changing same sex marriage. Churches do have every single right to ban it within their own thing, but not to tell others that it can and can't be there. The US and the rest of the world change with times as we see what is right, and were starting to see giving people of the same gender who are in love the right to marry is the right thing to do. It doesn't change who you are as a person, and if it really hurts you that much to see they are plenty of places in the world that still won't have it, or how we have all the old people today who make racist comments who never changes with the times, we'll have plenty like that with the same sex thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by B
    Ps: I find it highly insulting that you put me on the same level as a child molester and a murderer simply because I am openly gay and go on dates with men. I'm not a monster. I'm not a killer. I'm not a rapist. I'm not the devil. I'm a human being.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    I need to agree with Benson there. I was sexually abused as a kid as were a few of the other kids from where I grew up, by an older kid in the same church as us who still goes to the same church. Then there's a few good friends and family members of mine who are openly gay. Some have been with the same partner since before I was born. Longer than a lot of marriages I know some even being in the Temple, that say you'll be together forever. Another good friend of mine, served the US army defended his country and he's gay. Is he just a murderer for all the people he helped save, cause he loves men or women?
    Quote Originally Posted by R
    OH BOY OH BOY! Another one of these posts!
    http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/upl...opcorn-gif.gif
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    S, you are entitled to your beliefs, but please find a new argument for your anti-gay-marriage sentiments other than the old, 'if they were born that way, then shouldn't rape (or necrophilia, bestiality, child molestation, or marrying toasters) be allowed?!!?!' In rape there are not two consenting parties. In necrophilia, a corpse cannot consent. In bestiality an animal cannot consent. A child cannot consent. A toaster cannot consent. Two adults (heterosexual or homosexual) can legally consent.

    This is not to say you have to agree with gay-marriage, but please avoid use the 'child molestation' comparison. No one likes to be compared to child molesters, especially when the comparison is wrong.)
    Quote Originally Posted by S
    I repeat: This is NOT an Anti-Gay-Marriage post. Nor is it an anti-rape post. Nor an anti-drug post. Nor is it an anti-freedom post. It was simply a post to draw attention to the fact that we as a country (and as a world) are neglecting to pay attention to History's past mistakes. And if we don't learn from them, we will experience similar difficulties. Destruction. Only time will tell, but I am absolutely sure that destruction, terrorist attacks, economical collapse, major government failures, and other such tragedies are imminent. I lived in Mexico for the past 2 years, in a country where drugs, violence, rape, sex, homosexuality, abortion, and other such things are rampant. And how was life there? If you walk on the street after 10pm, you likely get shot. The government is run by drug lords. The average citizen in terrified of any government official or police officer. Their elections are rigged. Their rights are rarely protected. Their courts are unfair. You see bribes all over the place. Well, I love Mexico and the Mexican people, but I do NOT want my country run that way. Chaos. Run by drug Lords. Run by violence and terror. I enjoy freedom, but unless we live by moral principles (whether you are mormon, jew, buddist, Christian, athiest, it doesn't matter) we will experience similar declines in living conditions. That is the STORY of HISTORY. Ever heard of Pompeii and Mt. Vesuvius? Why was it destroyed? They discovered in Pompeii that there were tons of brothels, lots of vices, pornography, etc. Why were Soddom and Gomorrah destroyed? Similar reasons.(And to say the bible has no significance from a historical standpoint is ridiculous. Moses is just an imaginary caracter? Well then, so is Ghandi. And so is Aristotle. And so is Albert Einstein. NO! Jesus is a real person, as is Moses, as is Abraham. Jerusalem is a REAL place. As are Soddom and Gomorrah. Whether you accept them as prophets is your choice, but to say it has no historical significance is ridiculous). What about when God destroyed the world with a flood killing everyone but Noah and his family? Why did he do that? Because of their wickedness. So we can learn from history, or we can ignore it. THAT is what this post is about. Learning from the mistakes of others. If you choose not to, great, that is YOUR decision. And i respect it. I have been taught different things and have been warned. Maybe some of you never have been warned or taught, and it is my responsibility to share what I believe (just as each and every one of you has). This is by no means a post to try to convert everyone to Mormonism or to force anyone to accept my beliefs. Because we all know that will NEVER happen. But now we've been warned...
    Quote Originally Posted by B
    If you want to learn from history, look at the fall of the Roman Empire and how it was the strongest in the world until a new religion (Christianity) spread. If you want to learn from history, look at the hundreds of thousands of innocent people slaughtered by Christians in the crusades. If you want to learn from history, look at US history from less than 200 years ago when the United States literally went to war against Mormons. If you want to learn from history, look at how Hitler called himself a Christian. If you want to learn from history, look at how science (not religion) cured countless diseases that used to plague the world (ranging from smallpox to polio). If you want to learn from history, look at how popular vote (not Christian doctrine) destroyed anti-miscegenation laws and removed the injustice of barring interracial couples the right to marry. The Bible tells me how to appropriately treat my slaves and how to keep a woman subservient to men. I don't want a nation based on those scriptures; I want one based on democratic vote and thought. And society is evolving to the point where we are learning to be more tolerant of diverse religions, races, sexualities, genders, disabilities, and so on. The US is not a mono-religious entity. And the "morality" that you espouse, such as condemning homosexuality, is part of your church. But many churches, including Methodists, Unitarians, Buddhists, Hindus, Anglicans, and so on have no moral issue with homosexuality. By you claiming that two people loving each other is as immoral as rape is an insult to every single person that doesn't share your perception of "morality." You cannot create federal laws based on a single church's interpretation of morality. Laws are up to popular vote. And popular vote these days is in support of same-sex marriage, but is still against rape (for the reason listed previously about LGBTQ couples having consent, no victims, etc). I'm fairly certain we all agree that rape and molestation are crimes that are exceptionally harmful and definitely need to be prevented because, on utilitarian terms, we can see the damage they cause. Being a member of the LGBTQ minority does not. Period.

    L.F.D.

  24. #549
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    I agree that because of laws Church and State are separate
    Just gonna post on this one, how are Church and State separated? Considering politics are in laws and Religion is in Politics
    *Credit to Omega Elegy*
    Credit to Inferno Productions

  25. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darato View Post
    Here is the full thing as of now, changed the quots to the first letters of each person' name other than my own posts.

    L.F.D.
    Well, that's an argument we've all seen before. It's the stock-and-trade "my religion tells everybody what to do whether they believe in it or not" argument of the fundamentalist. It's actually part of the reason many people become atheists: we realize how (no easier way to say it) plainly stupid that argument is, and we further hope never to become like the guy using it.

    There isn't much we can say to such a person, because they've already forfeited the common ground of reason that has to underlie sensible communication. All we can do is ignore such arguments while we work to solve real problems, and when those folks decide they'd like to come sit at the grown-up's table without petulance and fairy tales, they're more than welcome.

    The guy who keeps plugging Canada was kind of funny, though.

    Robin Williams
    1951-2014
    "What's it gonna be? I don't know. But maybe along the way, you take my hand, tell a few jokes, and have some fun. C'mon, pal. You're not afraid, are ya?"

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