Gym Leaders and Elite Four Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

[PsychicPsycho]

I don't think there's anything wrong with mixed type gyms, in fact I'd like to see gyms with more complex themes that allow for more type diversity. For instance, you could have a ruins themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Psychic, and Ghost types, a mountain themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Steel, Fighting, and Ice types, etc.

Agree. My thinking is that gym leaders are supposed to be better-then-average trainers, who would be able to realize the disadvantage of having one type common to all your pokemon. My idea was to have gym focused on stats- that is, a certain gym would have pokemon that focus on high special attack, and others would focus on high HP, defense, attack, sp. defense and speed. The other 2 would focus on critical hits and accuracy/evasion. I chose those 2 because their are battle items that can increase them, but they can be something else, like flinching or status conditions.

[Hidden Power]

You have 6 Pokemon
There really isn't any difficulty when it comes to dual types. You're bound to have something that either hits them super effectively, can take hits not very effectively, or something that can just plain take neutral hits while dealing neutral hits.

Unless gym start implementing Battle ______ rules of 3 Pokemon, level 50, & no items or saving I don't see them ever becoming difficult to handle.

It'll be interesting as a post-game content, actually. Battle ____ rules would probably be too overwhelming for the main game, but I don't see why we can't at least have the "same no. of Pokemon" rule. The anime emphasizes it all the time, and it seems like a fairer system to me.

I myself have been doing that with every Pokemon game since Platinum, but it doesn't help the difficulty much. There's another problem: Game Freak seems to have trouble determining the proper levels a Gym Leader should be at. In B/W, it seemed like all of the Gym Leaders were underleveled. Here I was battling Iris and her Lv43 Haxorus while my Pokemon were all Lv46-ish. The leveling in B2/W2 is better, I actually had to grind for Drayden. But they still weren't of satisfactory difficulty, at least for me, especially the Elite 4. They were all the same level as me, and so it didn't feel like I was fighting the Elite 4, it just felt like I was fighting a regular trainer. I think it would be an interesting experiment if they just made a Lv50 level cap or something for all the Gyms.

I'd say the problem has more to do with the EXP system (which makes it harder to train higher level Pokemon) and the regional design (the gyms are way too close to together). IDK what the levels should be, but I certainly wouldn't do it the way they did.

I thought the the EXP system making it harder to train higher level Pokemon is in itself a good thing, and the flaw in BW (based on what Chaos Rush said) was that the gyms' level were not adjusted to be equal or slightly higher than the levels that the player's Pokemon levels are expected to saturate at as a result of the EXP system?

This makes no sense. What about mono type gyms give it a "gym-like quality"?

I don't think there's anything wrong with mixed type gyms, in fact I'd like to see gyms with more complex themes that allow for more type diversity. For instance, you could have a ruins themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Psychic, and Ghost types, a mountain themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Steel, Fighting, and Ice types, etc.

I do see some problems with mixed type gyms. Firstly, it's hard to have a mix of Pokemon type, considering that gym leaders have been limited to 2-4 Pokemon each, making it hard to 'mix' anything out of it. And since they often use dual type Pokemon (there isn't many pure type Pokemon for every single available type actually), I'll consider that rather 'mixed' already. Secondly the game has always catered to younger players, stating up front the typing of the gym and revealing its weakness.

The E4 should be the one having some sort of dual type mix, instead of being just an extension to the gyms' type specialty. They have more Pokemon (five is ideal), and don't really have to go for very cliche themes in order to fit the design of the gym's interior structure and puzzle.



One thing that has bugged me for quite some time now was the lack of a gym for every single type. I'm usually not concerned with this, but the badge design for BW/B2W2 is so aesthetically appealing that I just wished that there was a 'complete' set' of some sort. B2W2 taunt me further by introducing badges for two additional types. Meh.

[Bolt the Cat]

I thought the the EXP system making it harder to train higher level Pokemon is in itself a good thing, and the flaw in BW (based on what Chaos Rush said) was that the gyms' level were not adjusted to be equal or slightly higher than the levels that the player's Pokemon levels are expected to saturate at as a result of the EXP system?

It really doesn't help higher level Pokemon at all, especially if you need to grind (which happens quite often due to the bad regional design), because you're stuck with severely underleveled wild Pokemon in the surrounding areas. For example, right before Cheren, if you get Riolu, you need to train it to Lv. 15 in order for it to be viable since that's when it learns Force Palm. However, the highest level Pokemon you can fight at that point are Lv. 7, which takes forever to train. But in general, yeah, the levels are all off. Especially mid game, there's a 9 level gap across several very clustered gyms (between Castelia and Driftveil, which have too few training opportunities in that gap to warrant such a huge gap).

I do see some problems with mixed type gyms. Firstly, it's hard to have a mix of Pokemon type, considering that gym leaders have been limited to 2-4 Pokemon each, making it hard to 'mix' anything out of it.

They'd only really need 2 or 3 types, though, so there's plenty of room for diversity.

And since they often use dual type Pokemon (there isn't many pure type Pokemon for every single available type actually), I'll consider that rather 'mixed' already.

That doesn't usually have the same effect. The idea is to have gyms that you can't sweep with one Pokemon. If it's a dual type that counters its weaknesses, then fine, but simply adding dual types does nothing if it's something random.

Secondly the game has always catered to younger players, stating up front the typing of the gym and revealing its weakness.

They can still do that to a degree, you'd just need a more than one Pokemon for the gym. Also, it would help if they provided a way for them to view the type chart somehow, it's pretty ridiculous that you have to figure it out by trial and error.

The E4 should be the one having some sort of dual type mix, instead of being just an extension to the gyms' type specialty. They have more Pokemon (five is ideal), and don't really have to go for very cliche themes in order to fit the design of the gym's interior structure and puzzle.

That'd be a good compromise, but I'd still rather have them do that for gyms as well.

One thing that has bugged me for quite some time now was the lack of a gym for every single type. I'm usually not concerned with this, but the badge design for BW/B2W2 is so aesthetically appealing that I just wished that there was a 'complete' set' of some sort. B2W2 taunt me further by introducing badges for two additional types. Meh.

That would just be nonsensical. They don't need a monotype team for every type in every region, that's overkill.

[Hidden Power]

It really doesn't help higher level Pokemon at all, especially if you need to grind (which happens quite often due to the bad regional design), because you're stuck with severely underleveled wild Pokemon in the surrounding areas. For example, right before Cheren, if you get Riolu, you need to train it to Lv. 15 in order for it to be viable since that's when it learns Force Palm. However, the highest level Pokemon you can fight at that point are Lv. 7, which takes forever to train. But in general, yeah, the levels are all off. Especially mid game, there's a 9 level gap across several very clustered gyms (between Castelia and Driftveil, which have too few training opportunities in that gap to warrant such a huge gap).

That's kinda...ironic. I mean, we've been talking about gym battles being too easy, and so the game making it difficult for players to train Riolu seems like a good thing. I didn't even take up that NPC's advice about Riolu and beat it with Snivy anyway. It's AI we're talking about, and as long as there's no type disadvantage you can beat the gym.

They'd only really need 2 or 3 types, though, so there's plenty of room for diversity.

That doesn't usually have the same effect. The idea is to have gyms that you can't sweep with one Pokemon. If it's a dual type that counters its weaknesses, then fine, but simply adding dual types does nothing if it's something random.

They can still do that to a degree, you'd just need a more than one Pokemon for the gym. Also, it would help if they provided a way for them to view the type chart somehow, it's pretty ridiculous that you have to figure it out by trial and error.

My non-existent psychic powers tell me that that'll be really unlikely for GF to undertake in the future. It compromises what we already have (a seasoned game formula, ease of educating young players, clear and simple gym theme), comes with its own set of problems (complexity of gym themes to fit multiple types, ending up with cliche themes at the end of the day anyway, lack of sufficient types to mix around 8 times unless there's repetition), for something that has always been hard to achieve without Battle ___ rules (tougher AI Pokemon battle).

That would just be nonsensical. They don't need a monotype team for every type in every region, that's overkill.

Not so much about wanting tons of gyms, but rather just wanting to see how other type's gym badge would have looked like using Unova's badge design.

[Bolt the Cat]

It's AI we're talking about, and as long as there's no type disadvantage you can beat the gym.

Cheren is the only gym leader who's remotely challenging in that regard, then. Most of the others typically rely on brute force strategies that are pathetically easy to counter.

My non-existent psychic powers tell me that that'll be really unlikely for GF to undertake in the future. It compromises what we already have (a seasoned game formula, ease of educating young players, clear and simple gym theme), comes with its own set of problems (complexity of gym themes to fit multiple types, ending up with cliche themes at the end of the day anyway, lack of sufficient types to mix around 8 times unless there's repetition), for something that has always been hard to achieve without Battle ___ rules (tougher AI Pokemon battle).

Type matchups are a very basic part of the gameplay, it's something that the player should fully understand by the third gym at the latest. There's no need to do constantly be teaching type matchups the entire game, just teach the basics (strengths, weaknesses, immunities) and then provide the type chart as a reference.

Not so much about wanting tons of gyms, but rather just wanting to see how other type's gym badge would have looked like using Unova's badge design.

Oh, well that's equally nonsensical. There's no point in seeing the old badges if you don't get to collect them.

[Hidden Power]

Type matchups are a very basic part of the gameplay, it's something that the player should fully understand by the third gym at the latest. There's no need to do constantly be teaching type matchups the entire game, just teach the basics (strengths, weaknesses, immunities) and then provide the type chart as a reference.

But that doesn't really change the fact the ultimately AI isn't difficult to beat with or without mix type gyms, especially with Shift battle mode. You can't sweep with one Pokemon, but unless you're doing a single Pokemon run, you probably have a couple on your party and can switch in without penalty, making it essentially still a 'sweep'.

I don't even think E4 and the Champions are difficult, even though the Champions use a greater variety of Pokemon types. It's only with Battle ___ rules that I sense a detectable increase in AI difficulty.

Oh, well that's equally nonsensical. There's no point in seeing the old badges if you don't get to collect them.

I don't know, if there's a real life merchandise of those badges, including types for those that don't exist in game, I'll be tempted to buy solely for the aesthetic appeal. I'm only talking about the Unova badges because they're the only ones that show better consistency in terms of design.

[Bolt the Cat]

But that doesn't really change the fact the ultimately AI isn't difficult to beat with or without mix type gyms, especially with Shift battle mode. You can't sweep with one Pokemon, but unless you're doing a single Pokemon run, you probably have a couple on your party and can switch in without penalty, making it essentially still a 'sweep'.

I don't even think E4 and the Champions are difficult, even though the Champions use a greater variety of Pokemon types. It's only with Battle ___ rules that I sense a detectable increase in AI difficulty.

The problem is that gym leaders typically don't use complex strategies. They just use either random moves or brute force, and that's what makes it too easy most of the time. The hardest gym leaders this gen have been exceptions. Cheren is hard because he uses Work Up a few times to buff up his Pokemon's attack stats so that they can practically OHKO you after a few turns. Lenora is hard because she uses Retaliate to revenge kill your Pokemon, which hits for utterly massive damage when you use it for that purpose. Elesa spams Volt Switch which allows her to constantly switch her Pokemon and adds an element of unpredictability to the fight. They're not taking full advantage of the game's mechanics and creating an environment where the game is mainly "hit hard to win".

[Hidden Power]

The problem is that gym leaders typically don't use complex strategies. They just use either random moves or brute force, and that's what makes it too easy most of the time. The hardest gym leaders this gen have been exceptions. Cheren is hard because he uses Work Up a few times to buff up his Pokemon's attack stats so that they can practically OHKO you after a few turns. Lenora is hard because she uses Retaliate to revenge kill your Pokemon, which hits for utterly massive damage when you use it for that purpose. Elesa spams Volt Switch which allows her to constantly switch her Pokemon and adds an element of unpredictability to the fight. They're not taking full advantage of the game's mechanics and creating an environment where the game is mainly "hit hard to win".

It's AI, remember? In that same turn Cheren was spamming Work Up I was spamming Growth, +3 for both of us. Just that I had the common sense to stop once I knew I could OHKO it with STAB moves. And for the most part I don't even think the gym leader AI knows anything beyond spamming their gyms' TM moves and healing when their HP is around 1/4 or 1/5, so Elesa using Volt Switch or Lenora using Retaliate was purely due to the inherent usefulness of the moves they had. If the gyms' TM moves were brute force damage (or in Cheren's case a dual stat boosting move) then players would have the impression that these gyms are dumber, for merely spamming damage or not knowing when to stop with the stats boosting.

[Bolt the Cat]

It's AI, remember? In that same turn Cheren was spamming Work Up I was spamming Growth, +3 for both of us. Just that I had the common sense to stop once I knew I could OHKO it with STAB moves. And for the most part I don't even think the gym leader AI knows anything beyond spamming their gyms' TM moves and healing when their HP is around 1/4 or 1/5, so Elesa using Volt Switch or Lenora using Retaliate was purely due to the inherent usefulness of the moves they had. If the gyms' TM moves were brute force damage (or in Cheren's case a dual stat boosting move) then players would have the impression that these gyms are dumber, for merely spamming damage or not knowing when to stop with the stats boosting.

Well then yeah, up the AI. It's ****ing pathetic for them to spam the same moves over and over.

[Aurath8]

Well then yeah, up the AI. It's ****ing pathetic for them to spam the same moves over and over.

To be fair it is hard to design a gym battle in such a way that players will have to counter a specific strategy because of the ridiculous amount of variables present in the game as well as a few limitations of the gym like type and only using pokemon available up to that point.

[Bolt the Cat]

To be fair it is hard to design a gym battle in such a way that players will have to counter a specific strategy because of the ridiculous amount of variables present in the game as well as a few limitations of the gym like type and only using pokemon available up to that point.

Not really. Just pick a strategy and go for it.

[Jacobthepokemonfreak]

I would love the leaders to have pokemon from all across the reigonal/National Dex with 4-6 Pokemon.

[Lion Demon]

I personally love the new Gym orientation... & the fact that challenge mode was inserted: My only question is - Is the water Gym Leader a White dude or Black?

[Aurath8]

I personally love the new Gym orientation... & the fact that challenge mode was inserted: My only question is - Is the water Gym Leader a White dude or Black?

He's appears to be white with a very heavy tan.

[Dragonquester]

You should be able to rebattle gym leaders.

[redcharzard]

You should be able to rebattle gym leaders.

You can in the world tournament you just don't get exp or cash.

[Aurath8]

You can in the world tournament you just don't get exp or cash.

I'd at least like the Unova leaders to be outside the PWT as there aren't many other sources for grinding. It would be a bit redundant to have both PWT and general rematches though.
Couldn't care less about money as by postgame you'll be a millionaire.

[lollygag]

No, AuraTH - Marlon is ambiguously brown like IRIS XD.

[Bullkid]

No, AuraTH - Marlon is ambiguously brown like IRIS XD.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../37/Marlon.png

Notice how his feet and lower waist are white. It's clearly a tan.

[lollygag]

I thought his white feet was just an error with the official art.