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Thread: Gym Leaders and Elite Four Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

  1. #8401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    It really doesn't help higher level Pokemon at all, especially if you need to grind (which happens quite often due to the bad regional design), because you're stuck with severely underleveled wild Pokemon in the surrounding areas. For example, right before Cheren, if you get Riolu, you need to train it to Lv. 15 in order for it to be viable since that's when it learns Force Palm. However, the highest level Pokemon you can fight at that point are Lv. 7, which takes forever to train. But in general, yeah, the levels are all off. Especially mid game, there's a 9 level gap across several very clustered gyms (between Castelia and Driftveil, which have too few training opportunities in that gap to warrant such a huge gap).
    That's kinda...ironic. I mean, we've been talking about gym battles being too easy, and so the game making it difficult for players to train Riolu seems like a good thing. I didn't even take up that NPC's advice about Riolu and beat it with Snivy anyway. It's AI we're talking about, and as long as there's no type disadvantage you can beat the gym.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    They'd only really need 2 or 3 types, though, so there's plenty of room for diversity.

    That doesn't usually have the same effect. The idea is to have gyms that you can't sweep with one Pokemon. If it's a dual type that counters its weaknesses, then fine, but simply adding dual types does nothing if it's something random.

    They can still do that to a degree, you'd just need a more than one Pokemon for the gym. Also, it would help if they provided a way for them to view the type chart somehow, it's pretty ridiculous that you have to figure it out by trial and error.
    My non-existent psychic powers tell me that that'll be really unlikely for GF to undertake in the future. It compromises what we already have (a seasoned game formula, ease of educating young players, clear and simple gym theme), comes with its own set of problems (complexity of gym themes to fit multiple types, ending up with cliche themes at the end of the day anyway, lack of sufficient types to mix around 8 times unless there's repetition), for something that has always been hard to achieve without Battle ___ rules (tougher AI Pokemon battle).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    That would just be nonsensical. They don't need a monotype team for every type in every region, that's overkill.
    Not so much about wanting tons of gyms, but rather just wanting to see how other type's gym badge would have looked like using Unova's badge design.
    The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.
    Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

  2. #8402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Power View Post
    It's AI we're talking about, and as long as there's no type disadvantage you can beat the gym.
    Cheren is the only gym leader who's remotely challenging in that regard, then. Most of the others typically rely on brute force strategies that are pathetically easy to counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Power View Post
    My non-existent psychic powers tell me that that'll be really unlikely for GF to undertake in the future. It compromises what we already have (a seasoned game formula, ease of educating young players, clear and simple gym theme), comes with its own set of problems (complexity of gym themes to fit multiple types, ending up with cliche themes at the end of the day anyway, lack of sufficient types to mix around 8 times unless there's repetition), for something that has always been hard to achieve without Battle ___ rules (tougher AI Pokemon battle).
    Type matchups are a very basic part of the gameplay, it's something that the player should fully understand by the third gym at the latest. There's no need to do constantly be teaching type matchups the entire game, just teach the basics (strengths, weaknesses, immunities) and then provide the type chart as a reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Power View Post
    Not so much about wanting tons of gyms, but rather just wanting to see how other type's gym badge would have looked like using Unova's badge design.
    Oh, well that's equally nonsensical. There's no point in seeing the old badges if you don't get to collect them.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Type matchups are a very basic part of the gameplay, it's something that the player should fully understand by the third gym at the latest. There's no need to do constantly be teaching type matchups the entire game, just teach the basics (strengths, weaknesses, immunities) and then provide the type chart as a reference.
    But that doesn't really change the fact the ultimately AI isn't difficult to beat with or without mix type gyms, especially with Shift battle mode. You can't sweep with one Pokemon, but unless you're doing a single Pokemon run, you probably have a couple on your party and can switch in without penalty, making it essentially still a 'sweep'.

    I don't even think E4 and the Champions are difficult, even though the Champions use a greater variety of Pokemon types. It's only with Battle ___ rules that I sense a detectable increase in AI difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Oh, well that's equally nonsensical. There's no point in seeing the old badges if you don't get to collect them.
    I don't know, if there's a real life merchandise of those badges, including types for those that don't exist in game, I'll be tempted to buy solely for the aesthetic appeal. I'm only talking about the Unova badges because they're the only ones that show better consistency in terms of design.
    The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.
    Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Power View Post
    But that doesn't really change the fact the ultimately AI isn't difficult to beat with or without mix type gyms, especially with Shift battle mode. You can't sweep with one Pokemon, but unless you're doing a single Pokemon run, you probably have a couple on your party and can switch in without penalty, making it essentially still a 'sweep'.

    I don't even think E4 and the Champions are difficult, even though the Champions use a greater variety of Pokemon types. It's only with Battle ___ rules that I sense a detectable increase in AI difficulty.
    The problem is that gym leaders typically don't use complex strategies. They just use either random moves or brute force, and that's what makes it too easy most of the time. The hardest gym leaders this gen have been exceptions. Cheren is hard because he uses Work Up a few times to buff up his Pokemon's attack stats so that they can practically OHKO you after a few turns. Lenora is hard because she uses Retaliate to revenge kill your Pokemon, which hits for utterly massive damage when you use it for that purpose. Elesa spams Volt Switch which allows her to constantly switch her Pokemon and adds an element of unpredictability to the fight. They're not taking full advantage of the game's mechanics and creating an environment where the game is mainly "hit hard to win".
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    The problem is that gym leaders typically don't use complex strategies. They just use either random moves or brute force, and that's what makes it too easy most of the time. The hardest gym leaders this gen have been exceptions. Cheren is hard because he uses Work Up a few times to buff up his Pokemon's attack stats so that they can practically OHKO you after a few turns. Lenora is hard because she uses Retaliate to revenge kill your Pokemon, which hits for utterly massive damage when you use it for that purpose. Elesa spams Volt Switch which allows her to constantly switch her Pokemon and adds an element of unpredictability to the fight. They're not taking full advantage of the game's mechanics and creating an environment where the game is mainly "hit hard to win".
    It's AI, remember? In that same turn Cheren was spamming Work Up I was spamming Growth, +3 for both of us. Just that I had the common sense to stop once I knew I could OHKO it with STAB moves. And for the most part I don't even think the gym leader AI knows anything beyond spamming their gyms' TM moves and healing when their HP is around 1/4 or 1/5, so Elesa using Volt Switch or Lenora using Retaliate was purely due to the inherent usefulness of the moves they had. If the gyms' TM moves were brute force damage (or in Cheren's case a dual stat boosting move) then players would have the impression that these gyms are dumber, for merely spamming damage or not knowing when to stop with the stats boosting.
    The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.
    Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

  6. #8406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Power View Post
    It's AI, remember? In that same turn Cheren was spamming Work Up I was spamming Growth, +3 for both of us. Just that I had the common sense to stop once I knew I could OHKO it with STAB moves. And for the most part I don't even think the gym leader AI knows anything beyond spamming their gyms' TM moves and healing when their HP is around 1/4 or 1/5, so Elesa using Volt Switch or Lenora using Retaliate was purely due to the inherent usefulness of the moves they had. If the gyms' TM moves were brute force damage (or in Cheren's case a dual stat boosting move) then players would have the impression that these gyms are dumber, for merely spamming damage or not knowing when to stop with the stats boosting.
    Well then yeah, up the AI. It's ****ing pathetic for them to spam the same moves over and over.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  7. #8407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Well then yeah, up the AI. It's ****ing pathetic for them to spam the same moves over and over.
    To be fair it is hard to design a gym battle in such a way that players will have to counter a specific strategy because of the ridiculous amount of variables present in the game as well as a few limitations of the gym like type and only using pokemon available up to that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurath8 View Post
    To be fair it is hard to design a gym battle in such a way that players will have to counter a specific strategy because of the ridiculous amount of variables present in the game as well as a few limitations of the gym like type and only using pokemon available up to that point.
    Not really. Just pick a strategy and go for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  9. #8409
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    I would love the leaders to have pokemon from all across the reigonal/National Dex with 4-6 Pokemon.


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  10. #8410
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    I personally love the new Gym orientation... & the fact that challenge mode was inserted: My only question is - Is the water Gym Leader a White dude or Black?
    Pokemon X: 1435 - 4013 - 1487 (,,)

    I am searching for the following Pokemon
    (Modest), (Modest), (Hasty/Naive), (Timid/Jolly/Hasty/Naive), (Timid/Modest), (Jolly/Adamant)

    I can provide you with the following Pokemon…
    (Timid), (Jolly), (Timid), (Rash), (Bold), (Careful), (Relaxed with Seismic Toss).

    I’m also offering a legit Shiny Foongus. Looking for a good natured shiny in return!

  11. #8411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion Demon View Post
    I personally love the new Gym orientation... & the fact that challenge mode was inserted: My only question is - Is the water Gym Leader a White dude or Black?
    He's appears to be white with a very heavy tan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  12. #8412
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    You should be able to rebattle gym leaders.

  13. #8413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonquester View Post
    You should be able to rebattle gym leaders.
    You can in the world tournament you just don't get exp or cash.
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  14. #8414
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcharzard View Post
    You can in the world tournament you just don't get exp or cash.
    I'd at least like the Unova leaders to be outside the PWT as there aren't many other sources for grinding. It would be a bit redundant to have both PWT and general rematches though.
    Couldn't care less about money as by postgame you'll be a millionaire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  15. #8415
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    No, AuraTH - Marlon is ambiguously brown like IRIS XD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lollygag View Post
    No, AuraTH - Marlon is ambiguously brown like IRIS XD.
    http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../37/Marlon.png

    Notice how his feet and lower waist are white. It's clearly a tan.

  17. #8417
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    I thought his white feet was just an error with the official art.

  18. #8418
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    Quote Originally Posted by lollygag View Post
    I thought his white feet was just an error with the official art.
    I highly doubt that a huge mistake like that would not be noticed.

  19. #8419
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    Well I'm a Nubian princess. YO GURL WHAT UP?

  20. #8420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion Demon View Post
    I personally love the new Gym orientation... & the fact that challenge mode was inserted: My only question is - Is the water Gym Leader a White dude or Black?
    Marlon is most defiantly NOT Black. Most likely a Tan, but what I don't understand is how he can can get a tan so dark! See Brock in the anime? Now that is the color tan. Marlon's not even brown he's dark brown!

    This is the color a tan should be? Hahaha!
    http://studiomariepierre.com/wp-cont.../spray-tan.jpg
    ~It's not always right or wrong, As long as your spirit's strong. It's not always win or lose, It's the road you choose; The answer's within.

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  21. #8421
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    I'm dissapointed that only Elesa & Cheren had a uniform change... Skyla & burgh deserve their costumes to be changed too!
    Pokemon X: 1435 - 4013 - 1487 (,,)

    I am searching for the following Pokemon
    (Modest), (Modest), (Hasty/Naive), (Timid/Jolly/Hasty/Naive), (Timid/Modest), (Jolly/Adamant)

    I can provide you with the following Pokemon…
    (Timid), (Jolly), (Timid), (Rash), (Bold), (Careful), (Relaxed with Seismic Toss).

    I’m also offering a legit Shiny Foongus. Looking for a good natured shiny in return!

  22. #8422
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    Default How to manage to win Iris

    This is how I won the Champion Iris at least:
    Had Cobalion at Lv. 50 with Leftovers and Hydreigon used Flamethrower: It's super effective! Cobalion had been left weak, but Leftovers gave it an advantage. Cobalion used Sacred Sword for two times - Hydreigon fainted! I changed to Excadrill and Iris sent out Druddigon. Excadrill used Earthquake. Druddigon used Focus Blast! Excadrill avoided the attack! Used Hyper Potion on Cobalion. Druddigon finished off Excadrill. I used revive while using Cobalion. Cobalion survived, so Excadrill could as well destroy Druddigon with Earthquake. Iris sent out Aggron. Excadrill used Earthquake - it's HYPER EFFECTIVE! Aggron fainted, Iris sent out Haxorus. I sent out Swanna and tried to make powerful risks. Haxorus was dragged out and Lapras sent out. Swanna's attack did miss Lapras. I changed for Cobalion and used Sacred Sword against ice type. That managed to finish off Lapras and I fought with Swanna against Haxorus again to be safe from it's Earthquake. But Surf wasn't effective and Excadrill had to do the ending. Iris sent out Archeops, and I changed to Cobalion. Archeops couldn't do anything... Cobalion used IRON HEAD! Archeops: X(
    I: ....!! Head for the PWT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion Demon View Post
    I'm dissapointed that only Elesa & Cheren had a uniform change... Skyla & burgh deserve their costumes to be changed too!
    So true...

    But we just gotta deal with it.

  24. #8424
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    All the gym leaders besides Roxie are jokes when it comes to their Pokemon teams.

  25. #8425
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    Quote Originally Posted by UbersSuck20 View Post
    All the gym leaders besides Roxie are jokes when it comes to their Pokemon teams.
    That's a funny way of spelling Cheren.
    Last edited by Bolt the Cat; 31st March 2013 at 8:44 PM.

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