Gym Leaders and Elite Four Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

[R_N]

Ah. The fact that like everybody ever just happens to be there is a little weird, but it's really best not to think about things like that in Pokemon. Too many discrepancies to get your head around. Like why are Janine and Giovanni both Gym leaders?

(unless it's just a people who were Gym leaders at some point sort of thing)


Yeah, I was wondering why they were randomly battleable, but it sort of makes sense now. The subway has been totally outshined by the World Tournament, guess they had to remind us of their existence.

I mean the Skyscraper/Hollow are rechallengable areas full of strong Pokemon that give tons of experience & the first time you beat them you get a shiny dragon.
The WT is shorter and full of fanservice

Subway....hates you.

[Blazios]

More importantly, why did they let Giovanni even participate, since he's been outed as the leader of the most notorious criminal syndicate in Kanto?

[Ver-mont]

Anyone else feel sorry for Emmet & Ingo at this point?
Starting to become abundantly clear why we get a double battle with them in Nimbasa

I'm sorry, who are those ones you're talking about again?

More importantly, why did they let Giovanni even participate, since he's been outed as the leader of the most notorious criminal syndicate in Kanto?

I honestly still hope the dialogue will at least try to address that problem. Even if it's just basically a "yeah, we know" thing.

[Valoo.]

Yeah, regarding the World Tournament (and the Sinnoh/Johto Battle Frontier too) it is better to just not think about and consider it non-canon.
The fact that none of the characters aged or changed clothes, or even Giovanni as a Gym Leader again makes 0 sense.

WT is still a fab idea though, so I'm not to bothered about the bizarreness of it all.

I mean the Skyscraper/Hollow are rechallengable areas full of strong Pokemon that give tons of experience & the first time you beat them you get a shiny dragon.
The WT is shorter and full of fanservice

Subway....hates you.

Poor Subway. You can even use the WT BP to buy the Subway stuff anyway, so playing for prizes are pointless. They really should have thrown some sort of a bone to the poor old Subway. Does it still give a trainer card star? That's something, at least.

[Hero of Ideals]

Of course WT (after thw first time) is non-canon but who would take it seriously?

[R_N]

I'm sorry, who are those ones you're talking about again?

Can't tell if you're serious but it gives me excuse to post their sprites so:

I honestly still hope the dialogue will at least try to address that problem. Even if it's just basically a "yeah, we know" thing.

"Unova didn't check my records, time to rebuild team rocket!"
I wonder if he shows up in the lobby.

Poor Subway. You can even use the WT BP to buy the Subway stuff anyway, so playing for prizes are pointless. They really should have thrown some sort of a bone to the poor old Subway. Does it still give a trainer card star? That's something, at least.

Wait what?
So they both give BP...but you can only use certain BP with certain shops?

[Nyarlathotep]

I mean the Skyscraper/Hollow are rechallengable areas full of strong Pokemon that give tons of experience & the first time you beat them you get a shiny dragon.

Well, the Skyscraper or something similar would be very welcomed by me in the next games.

Also, Hollow Holes were genial.

[Ver-mont]

Can't tell if you're serious but it gives me excuse to post their sprites so:

Noo, I was just making fun of how no one pays attention to them anymore. But I do like the animated sprites.

"Unova didn't check my records, time to rebuild team rocket!"
I wonder if he shows up in the lobby.

I guess it would be something, at least. I'm really curious to read his dialogues.

[Valoo.]

Can't tell if you're serious but it gives me excuse to post their sprites so:

Has anyone actually bothered to remember which is which? Seriously.

Wait what?
So they both give BP...but you can only use certain BP with certain shops?

Meant that you can buy from the Subway shop with the WT BP, so there's no point in playing the subway to get BP to use in the subway shop.

[BurningWhiteKyurem]

Ah. The fact that like everybody ever just happens to be there is a little weird, but it's really best not to think about things like that in Pokemon. Too many discrepancies to get your head around. Like why are Janine and Giovanni both Gym leaders?

Giovanni is a weird one (messes up both RB and GSC Canon), but Koga is in the Elite 4 so someone has to look after his gym in Fuchsia City (hence Janine his daughter).

[Izanagi]

I am curious to see Giovanni's in-game dialogues especially if they mention Team Rocket.

[Bolt the Cat]

Koga is in the Elite 4

You don't know that. Especially if Giovanni was chosen as the Viridian Gym Leader.

[R_N]

You don't know that. Especially if Giovanni was chosen as the Viridian Gym Leader.

Janine was there for the Kanto leaders, and the e4 are the only ones left out.
He's likely still e4.

edit: Well he could have retired I guess?

[Bolt the Cat]

Janine was there for the Kanto leaders, and the e4 are the only ones left out.
He's likely still e4.

Well they should at least try to be consistent, though. Giovanni and Janine were never gym leaders at the same time, it makes no sense. Unless they for some reason reinstated Giovanni after the events of HGSS, but IDK.

[BurningWhiteKyurem]

Well they should at least try to be consistent, though. Giovanni and Janine were never gym leaders at the same time, it makes no sense. Unless they for some reason reinstated Giovanni after the events of HGSS, but IDK.

That's why I said they messed up the canon, makes no sense to have Blue as Kanto Champion (when it's actually Red who surpassed him in R/B), and then have Giovanni reinstated as Gym Leader when events suggest otherwise (yes I include the Celebi event as relevant to the canon), and then have Janine as gym leader when she didn't really exist during R/B's timeframe...

It's one confusing mess if you ask me...(The Wallace-Juan-Steven mess is also another one).

[Vascals]

I dont find it really confusing, it seems just like gamefreak decided to count former gym leaders/champions as active for the tournament despite them leaving/being surpassed, though it is weird they let giovanni participate considering his past.

[Bolt the Cat]

It's one confusing mess if you ask me...(The Wallace-Juan-Steven mess is also another one).

That one's a bit cleaner. Juan's the Sootopolis Gym Leader, Wallace is Champion, and Steven is kind of like Alder, not officially a champion, but he's a wandering powerful trainer which apparently is close enough for Game Freak.

[Endolise]

It's really not that complicated. They never said the Gym Leaders had to have held the position simultaneously. Furthermore, Giovanni is in because he was a Gym Leader. Koga is not because he's currently an Elite Four member. Obviously, since there are no other Elite Four members, we can infer that they have other, more important responsibilities to take care of. So while Koga may have previously been a Gym Leader, he cannot participate because his duties as an E4 member take precedence. Giovanni, despite no longer being an active Gym Leader, does not hold a position as demanding as that of an Elite 4 and therefore is allowed to take part in the Tournament. And before you say "oh well if the E4 have such big responsibilities then what about the Champions," remember that we consistently see the Champions outside of their station at the League for long periods of time, so we can assume that they have more lenient restrictions on when they need to be present (probably because most Trainers who take on the Elite Four aren't likely to reach the Champion).

As far as the Champions tournament goes, that appears to be open to anybody who has held the title before. As such, Blue would qualify, Red would qualify, Alder and Steven would qualify. It's not about being a powerful Trainer, it's about who has previously held the title officially.

[Ver-mont]

That's why I said they messed up the canon, makes no sense to have Blue as Kanto Champion (when it's actually Red who surpassed him in R/B), and then have Giovanni reinstated as Gym Leader when events suggest otherwise (yes I include the Celebi event as relevant to the canon), and then have Janine as gym leader when she didn't really exist during R/B's timeframe...

It's one confusing mess if you ask me...(The Wallace-Juan-Steven mess is also another one).

Since we have Blue and Alder present, I believe the tournament includes both Champions and ex-Champions. That way, there's no problem in having Blue, Red (replaced by Lance) and Steven (replaced by Wallace) taking part in this particular championship.

[Bolt the Cat]

It's really not that complicated. They never said the Gym Leaders had to have held the position simultaneously. Furthermore, Giovanni is in because he was a Gym Leader. Koga is not because he's currently an Elite Four member. Obviously, since there are no other Elite Four members, we can infer that they have other, more important responsibilities to take care of. So while Koga may have previously been a Gym Leader, he cannot participate because his duties as an E4 member take precedence. Giovanni, despite no longer being an active Gym Leader, does not hold a position as demanding as that of an Elite 4 and therefore is allowed to take part in the Tournament. And before you say "oh well if the E4 have such big responsibilities then what about the Champions," remember that we consistently see the Champions outside of their station at the League for long periods of time, so we can assume that they have more lenient restrictions on when they need to be present (probably because most Trainers who take on the Elite Four aren't likely to reach the Champion).

As far as the Champions tournament goes, that appears to be open to anybody who has held the title before. As such, Blue would qualify, Red would qualify, Alder and Steven would qualify. It's not about being a powerful Trainer, it's about who has previously held the title officially.

But why would they let the leader of the most feared evil team in Kanto/Johto join? I mean think about it, that's like letting Osama Bin Laden join the Olympics.

[R_N]

But why would they let the leader of the most feared evil team in Kanto/Johto join? I mean think about it, that's like letting Osama Bin Laden join the Olympics.

"most feared" is kind of stretching it, I think
most people seemed clueless

[Ver-mont]

"most feared" is kind of stretching it, I think
most people seemed clueless

Well, since Team Rocket was all but secretive about the fact in the sequels, I think everyone with access to radio knows by now (well... everyone, news spread...)

[Endolise]

But why would they let the leader of the most feared evil team in Kanto/Johto join? I mean think about it, that's like letting Osama Bin Laden join the Olympics.

My explanation, however unsatisfactory it may be to most people, is that, since it's implied that they've been doing this Tournament thing for years, the Gym Leaders and Champions have a sort of discrete "Honor Before Reason" code when it comes to who participates. Giovanni, whether they agree with his involvement in Team Rocket or not, was a fellow League official and as such, the other Leaders probably respect him for at least that. Even Giovanni himself seems to enjoy the spirit of battle, as evidenced by his final speech in FRLG ("I will dedicate my life training again" (although this was probably just a cover in order to keep Red and the authorities off of his trail, since now we know that he still intended to restart Team Rocket when he believed the time was right; however, that does not mean that his statement was entirely dishonest)). Not to mention that it's been several years since any trace of Team Rocket has surfaced, and it's entirely possible that after the meltdown he suffered following his defeat at the hands of Ethan/Lyra really did inspire him to turn over a new leaf this time. (Perhaps seeing his Team Rocket-related goals rendered impossible convinced him to look at things from a different perspective.) I mean, yes, Giovanni was a criminal, but he wasn't stupid. I'm certain that he can recognize when his plans simply aren't going to work and that he has the clarity of mind to weigh the pros and cons of continuing his pursuits, unlike Ghetsis, who had invested everything he had into his plans and whose overconfidence and sizable ego had deluded him into believing himself to be nothing short of absolute perfection; incapable of folly.

Or it's possible that he has been in jail this whole time and that they simply let him out temporarily under careful watch in the spirit of good sportsmanship. Maybe he behaved well in prison and eventually got a pardon. His crimes were hardly "Bin Laden" level.

I know these suggestions rely on a lot of "possibly"-es and "perhaps"-es, but since we don't really know all of what's happened since we last saw Giovanni, all we can really do is speculate.

[SasakiThePikachu]

large post

Or, like most have suggested, its non-canon, and just a fun bit of gym leader/champion fanservice that'll explode your head if you think about its existence too much

I mean the Skyscraper/Hollow are rechallengable areas full of strong Pokemon that give tons of experience & the first time you beat them you get a shiny dragon.
The WT is shorter and full of fanservice

Subway....hates you.

True dat. but then the Subway has always hated me. The Battle Tower isn't crazy about me either. And the Battle Factory? We have a strained relationship. I'd rather not talk about it...

[Endolise]

Or, like most have suggested, its non-canon, and just a fun bit of gym leader/champion fanservice that'll explode your head if you think about its existence too much

My head doesn't explode when I think about it; that helps me rationalize it. Besides, it's strongly implied to be canon by Cynthia in the last game.