HM01 Fly (Changed to 75pwr/95%/1turn w/flinch)
That's all you need. Dive would become a TM and the rest would not be available. Cut lost it's luster after Gen 1 and Dive is just a liquid Dig.
Well The only game where Dive actually had a significant use is in the Hoenn games so unless they plan on making Pokemon games with required dive spots, I agree Dive should be a TMDive would become a TM and the rest would not be available. Cut lost it's luster after Gen 1 and Dive is just a liquid Dig.
The problem with something like Dive (or any other water-travel HM) is the question of what would happen if you forgot the move while underwater/surfing/stuck on an island without a Flyer? On an island, you could just re-teach the move since the HM is always in your bag (this was not the case back in 1st Gen, where the no-forget thing was introduced, though), but on/under the water it could pose problems.
Something like Fly could easily be a TM since you can't be trapped for forgetting it at a bad location. Surf, Dive, and Waterfall, on the other hand, can allow you to leave areas as well as enter them.
I'd even call Rock Smash more useful than Cut because while both remove an obstacle that takes up a single space (usually providing access to an item at most) Rock Smash rocks can contain wild Pokemon and (in HG/SS anyway) items. Trees themselves don't contain anything that you can get for cutting them down.
Last edited by Ememew; 12th November 2012 at 11:05 PM.
Maybe instead they could make it essential for getting somewhere that the other HMs can't, like a mountain peak town that has no caves or a completely closed off island.
Last edited by Taodragon; 12th November 2012 at 11:08 PM.
how could you possibly interpret that as in reference to its overworld usage
come on, now
Still it's not the best idea. The problem is fly has never been essential to the games structure and admittedly doesn't really have to be since having the option to get somewhere quickly is always preferred to not having it and traveling slowly. Maybe it's just best to let it be.
Last edited by Taodragon; 12th November 2012 at 11:52 PM.
For your first visit, an NPC takes you there on his [insert large Flying type here]. After which you're free to Fly directly to the location. Only problem is you can only Fly to towns, cities and the Pokemon League. Unless there's a town at the mountain peak.Which runs completely contrary to Fly being used only to access locations you've already visited, which would require either both Fly and said area to be post-game or one hell of an asspull.
1. The opponent can take advantage of the free turn to boost its stats, setup weather, Reflect/Light Screen and a number of other things while you just Dive.
2. Its just plain slow. By using a two-turn move you're doubling the time it takes to complete battle. Ain't nobody got time for Dive.
It may be a decently powerful move but the potential disadvantage and the extra time it takes really hurts its viability. Its a similar story with Fly.
Basically, I'd much rather that Dive be a one turn move than a two-turn one, or not be used at all. I don't see Fly going any time soon, so I'd love to see it changed to a one-turn move, albeit with a power drop to 80 or something.
Dive gives you depth (pardon the pun) within the map/region, which is nice. But it really only has 1 use and I really wouldn't want it having anymore than that. Waterfall was cool in Gen IV when you needed it to reach items and get to different places within the map. It's a liquid Rock Climb, and since that is gone, Waterfall wins here. Although Waterfall has seen a slump in field usage, I still like the effect of it more than just going underwater. We also have a marine tube now so I don't have to use it.
And as a battle move, Dive is terrible. So I'm putting Dive in the same category as Cut.
Anyway . . .
As far as single/multiple uses for Dive, just to clarify, but are you referring to 3rd or 5th Gen Dive? In Hoenn, there were plenty of dive spots and places to find underwater Pokemon (and I sometimes used dive to travel via water while avoiding Tentacool on the surface).
In Unova, it only has the purpose of exploring the Abyssal Ruins, which contain no wild Pokemon.
Because it looks to me like some people are discussing Dive in Hoenn terms and others are thinking in Unova terms, leading them to talk past one another.
I usually don't mind things like Waterfall and Cut as long as they give access to more than just a single blocked-off item per obstacle. When all that's on the other end is one item, and this happens consistently, then it just seems like the obstacle could have been replaced with something that didn't take a moveslot to get past. When the area opened by a roadblock is significantly larger (often the case in past-generation forest areas and a few waterfalls in Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Johto), then I can see it as more justifiable. Waterfall isn't that bad, actually, as it usually leads to more than one thing of interest: Lostlorn Forest: dark grass area. Route 11: a few items and an area below the falls with dark grass and a trainer. Route 14: Abundant Shrine area. . .
Last edited by Ememew; 14th November 2012 at 6:12 AM.
Honestly, I've got no problem with water routes, or diving, I just wish they'd change them a bit so it doesn't seem so repetitive. Basically every water route is a straight(ish) waterway lines with rocks. Maybe they could have cliffs on one side, and an exploitable area on the other side (with trees or something to prevent you from wandering off the map, at least that's got more potential than a bunch of rocks).