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Thread: Unova Region Discussion/Speculation Thread [Read First Post]

  1. #3776
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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Considering the recent fates of Flash and Rock Smash, it's entirely possible that Cut may be removed as an HM and simply used as a TM, if at all. Its use has declined to the point where it's not necessary to have much of the time, and deleting it from a Pokemon couldn't get you permanently stuck in any situations, given that TMs are now infinitely resuable and every evolution of Cut-learning Pokemon also learns Cut.
    First of all, Rock Smash shouldn't even be a TM anymore, it's a weak move and is completely useless in 5th gen (except for one instance in Clay Road in BW2). But yeah, I can see Cut and Fly going the way of Flash in future games. But do we really want that to happen? Do we really want to cut down the HM list to being 3 or 4? It's something worth thinking about. Personally, I'd rather them find new ways to make HMs useful instead of downsizing them. It adds to exploration and puzzles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    First of all, Rock Smash shouldn't even be a TM anymore, it's a weak move and is completely useless in 5th gen (except for one instance in Clay Road in BW2). But yeah, I can see Cut and Fly going the way of Flash in future games. But do we really want that to happen? Do we really want to cut down the HM list to being 3 or 4? It's something worth thinking about. Personally, I'd rather them find new ways to make HMs useful instead of downsizing them. It adds to exploration and puzzles.
    Or better yet, they make new HM's and the ones that have rarely any use anymore such as Cut and Fly as you suggested become TM's.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    Or better yet, they make new HM's and the ones that have rarely any use anymore such as Cut and Fly as you suggested become TM's.
    If I could redo the HMs, this would be my lineup:

    HM01 Fly (Changed to 75pwr/95%/1turn w/flinch)
    HM02 Surf
    HM03 Strength
    HM04 Waterfall

    That's all you need. Dive would become a TM and the rest would not be available. Cut lost it's luster after Gen 1 and Dive is just a liquid Dig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    If I could redo the HMs, this would be my lineup:

    HM01 Fly (Changed to 75pwr/95%/1turn w/flinch)
    HM02 Surf
    HM03 Strength
    HM04 Waterfall

    That's all you need.
    What about Rock Climb? Also, Fly does not need to be lowered its perfect as it is.

    Dive would become a TM and the rest would not be available. Cut lost it's luster after Gen 1 and Dive is just a liquid Dig.
    Well The only game where Dive actually had a significant use is in the Hoenn games so unless they plan on making Pokemon games with required dive spots, I agree Dive should be a TM


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    The problem with something like Dive (or any other water-travel HM) is the question of what would happen if you forgot the move while underwater/surfing/stuck on an island without a Flyer? On an island, you could just re-teach the move since the HM is always in your bag (this was not the case back in 1st Gen, where the no-forget thing was introduced, though), but on/under the water it could pose problems.

    Something like Fly could easily be a TM since you can't be trapped for forgetting it at a bad location. Surf, Dive, and Waterfall, on the other hand, can allow you to leave areas as well as enter them.

    I'd even call Rock Smash more useful than Cut because while both remove an obstacle that takes up a single space (usually providing access to an item at most) Rock Smash rocks can contain wild Pokemon and (in HG/SS anyway) items. Trees themselves don't contain anything that you can get for cutting them down.
    Last edited by Ememew; 12th November 2012 at 10:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    HM01 Fly (Changed to 75pwr/95%/1turn w/flinch)
    Fly doesn't need to be improved in battle. What it does need is to be improved outside of battle by giving it some sort of use in exploration. For instance, what if it was like in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs, where you could explore the clouds, essentially being an aerial version of Surf? That'd be a good solution, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    HM04 Waterfall
    And what would you do to make Waterfall more useful? Because I've got nothing. It's another pointless obstacle.

    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    That's all you need. Dive would become a TM and the rest would not be available. Cut lost it's luster after Gen 1 and Dive is just a liquid Dig.
    Wrong, Dive is not "just a liquid Dig" and it's infinitely more useful than the likes of Fly and Waterfall. It adds both a literal and a figurative depth to water routes, making them more varied and explorable, giving you access to areas you wouldn't otherwise, and new ways to catch wild Pokemon. It's one of the most useful HMs ever made, second only to Surf.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    What about Rock Climb? Also, Fly does not need to be lowered its perfect as it is.
    Rock Climb is somewhat useful, making cliff areas more explorable, but they can easily bring back the Acro Bike to do the same thing without wasting a move slot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Fly doesn't need to be improved in battle. What it does need is to be improved outside of battle by giving it some sort of use in exploration. For instance, what if it was like in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs, where you could explore the clouds, essentially being an aerial version of Surf? That'd be a good solution, IMO.
    While granted it's not useful for exploration, fly has always been just a quick way to get from location A to B without the hassle of traveling. While something like that could be fun, but it could also get annoying since you'd have to play it repeatedly, even if you wanted to get somewhere in a hurry.

    Maybe instead they could make it essential for getting somewhere that the other HMs can't, like a mountain peak town that has no caves or a completely closed off island.
    Last edited by Taodragon; 12th November 2012 at 10:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Do we really want to cut down the HM list to being 3 or 4? It's something worth thinking about. Personally, I'd rather them find new ways to make HMs useful instead of downsizing them. It adds to exploration and puzzles.
    Kinda. It means we would no longer have to carry multiple HM slaves. It's not as if HMs are the only way to create an overworld puzzle, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    What about Rock Climb? Also, Fly does not need to be lowered its perfect as it is.
    Rock Climb was dropped in Gen V. Including Fly as a TM would only mean that it could be rewritten as a move on the fly, pun intended entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Wrong, Dive is not "just a liquid Dig" and it's infinitely more useful than the likes of Fly and Waterfall. It adds both a literal and a figurative depth to water routes, making them more varied and explorable, giving you access to areas you wouldn't otherwise, and new ways to catch wild Pokemon. It's one of the most useful HMs ever made, second only to Surf.
    really

    how could you possibly interpret that as in reference to its overworld usage

    come on, now

    Quote Originally Posted by Taodragon View Post
    Maybe instead they could make it essential for getting somewhere that the other HMs can't, like a mountain peak town that has no caves or a completely closed off island.
    Which runs completely contrary to Fly being used only to access locations you've already visited, which would require either both Fly and said area to be post-game or one hell of an asspull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Which runs completely contrary to Fly being used only to access locations you've already visited, which would require either both Fly and said area to be post-game or one hell of an asspull.
    I always imagined it being like someone just giving you directions to the area in question and then showing you on a map the proper way to get there, or better yet, even having the guide join you for the trip to unlock the city and explain away any inconsistencies between other occasions.

    Still it's not the best idea. The problem is fly has never been essential to the games structure and admittedly doesn't really have to be since having the option to get somewhere quickly is always preferred to not having it and traveling slowly. Maybe it's just best to let it be.
    Last edited by Taodragon; 12th November 2012 at 10:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taodragon View Post
    While granted it's not useful for exploration, fly has always been just a quick way to get from location A to B without the hassle of traveling. While something like that could be fun, but it could also get annoying since you'd have to play it repeatedly, even if you wanted to get somewhere in a hurry.
    That wouldn't detract from Fly's ability to take you where you want to go in an instant. Like with the Guardian Signs, while you're in the air you can pull up a list of areas to fly to and go there instantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Kinda. It means we would no longer have to carry multiple HM slaves. It's not as if HMs are the only way to create an overworld puzzle, anyway.
    Good point, however I was thinking instead they could just make them decent battle moves to make them actually worth using for your team.

    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Rock Climb was dropped in Gen V.
    That doesn't stop them from bringing it back if they really want to. They brought back Whirlpool and Dive (kinda) after skipping a generation. They can use whatever the hell they want for HMs, it doesn't matter how long it's been since we've used them.


    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    really

    how could you possibly interpret that as in reference to its overworld usage

    come on, now
    There's nothing wrong with it as a battle move either.
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    Which runs completely contrary to Fly being used only to access locations you've already visited, which would require either both Fly and said area to be post-game or one hell of an asspull.
    For your first visit, an NPC takes you there on his [insert large Flying type here]. After which you're free to Fly directly to the location. Only problem is you can only Fly to towns, cities and the Pokemon League. Unless there's a town at the mountain peak.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    There's nothing wrong with it as a battle move either.
    Dive is a two-turn move. On the face of things, it looks like you'll have a similar result to Waterfall. At the end of the two turns, the opponent attacked and you attacked. There are a 2 problems with Dive.

    1. The opponent can take advantage of the free turn to boost its stats, setup weather, Reflect/Light Screen and a number of other things while you just Dive.
    2. Its just plain slow. By using a two-turn move you're doubling the time it takes to complete battle. Ain't nobody got time for Dive.

    It may be a decently powerful move but the potential disadvantage and the extra time it takes really hurts its viability. Its a similar story with Fly.
    Basically, I'd much rather that Dive be a one turn move than a two-turn one, or not be used at all. I don't see Fly going any time soon, so I'd love to see it changed to a one-turn move, albeit with a power drop to 80 or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    Dive is a two-turn move. On the face of things, it looks like you'll have a similar result to Waterfall. At the end of the two turns, the opponent attacked and you attacked. There are a 2 problems with Dive.

    1. The opponent can take advantage of the free turn to boost its stats, setup weather, Reflect/Light Screen and a number of other things while you just Dive.
    2. Its just plain slow. By using a two-turn move you're doubling the time it takes to complete battle. Ain't nobody got time for Dive.
    Waterfall is more useless as a field move, so I'd rather see that removed instead.
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    I knew the euro crisis got out of hand but this is ridiculous, its gotten to the point were people want a part time job in a video game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Waterfall is more useless as a field move, so I'd rather see that removed instead.
    imo, as a field move, Waterfall wins that battle hands down.

    Dive gives you depth (pardon the pun) within the map/region, which is nice. But it really only has 1 use and I really wouldn't want it having anymore than that. Waterfall was cool in Gen IV when you needed it to reach items and get to different places within the map. It's a liquid Rock Climb, and since that is gone, Waterfall wins here. Although Waterfall has seen a slump in field usage, I still like the effect of it more than just going underwater. We also have a marine tube now so I don't have to use it.

    And as a battle move, Dive is terrible. So I'm putting Dive in the same category as Cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    imo, as a field move, Waterfall wins that battle hands down.

    Dive gives you depth (pardon the pun) within the map/region, which is nice. But it really only has 1 use and I really wouldn't want it having anymore than that. Waterfall was cool in Gen IV when you needed it to reach items and get to different places within the map. It's a liquid Rock Climb, and since that is gone, Waterfall wins here. Although Waterfall has seen a slump in field usage, I still like the effect of it more than just going underwater. We also have a marine tube now so I don't have to use it.

    And as a battle move, Dive is terrible. So I'm putting Dive in the same category as Cut.
    No, you've got it backwards, Waterfall only has one use, Dive has much more potential. It adds an extra level of exploration, allowing you to explore completely different areas underneath existing water routes allowing for a lot more creativity in regards to level design (and God knows water routes could use more of that). On top of that, it also gives you another way to catch Pokemon (even though it's only Water types, but there's a ton of Water types so that means more variety in Water types). Waterfall doesn't really have much purpose, it's just... there. Much like Cut, it's a generic obstacle that really doesn't add much to the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorocario View Post
    I knew the euro crisis got out of hand but this is ridiculous, its gotten to the point were people want a part time job in a video game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Meanwhile, the number of ridiculous roadblocks continues to grow exponentially.
    "Today we're dancing for no reason. Someday, we'll disappear for no reason." is at the top of my list for "silliest roadblock."

    Anyway . . .

    As far as single/multiple uses for Dive, just to clarify, but are you referring to 3rd or 5th Gen Dive? In Hoenn, there were plenty of dive spots and places to find underwater Pokemon (and I sometimes used dive to travel via water while avoiding Tentacool on the surface).

    In Unova, it only has the purpose of exploring the Abyssal Ruins, which contain no wild Pokemon.

    Because it looks to me like some people are discussing Dive in Hoenn terms and others are thinking in Unova terms, leading them to talk past one another.

    I usually don't mind things like Waterfall and Cut as long as they give access to more than just a single blocked-off item per obstacle. When all that's on the other end is one item, and this happens consistently, then it just seems like the obstacle could have been replaced with something that didn't take a moveslot to get past. When the area opened by a roadblock is significantly larger (often the case in past-generation forest areas and a few waterfalls in Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Johto), then I can see it as more justifiable. Waterfall isn't that bad, actually, as it usually leads to more than one thing of interest: Lostlorn Forest: dark grass area. Route 11: a few items and an area below the falls with dark grass and a trainer. Route 14: Abundant Shrine area. . .
    Last edited by Ememew; 14th November 2012 at 5:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ememew View Post
    As far as single/multiple uses for Dive, just to clarify, but are you referring to 3rd or 5th Gen Dive? In Hoenn, there were plenty of dive spots and places to find underwater Pokemon (and I sometimes used dive to travel via water while avoiding Tentacool on the surface).

    In Unova, it only has the purpose of exploring the Abyssal Ruins, which contain no wild Pokemon.
    3rd gen. 5th gen doesn't count.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorocario View Post
    I knew the euro crisis got out of hand but this is ridiculous, its gotten to the point were people want a part time job in a video game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    No, you've got it backwards, Waterfall only has one use, Dive has much more potential. It adds an extra level of exploration, allowing you to explore completely different areas underneath existing water routes allowing for a lot more creativity in regards to level design (and God knows water routes could use more of that). On top of that, it also gives you another way to catch Pokemon (even though it's only Water types, but there's a ton of Water types so that means more variety in Water types). Waterfall doesn't really have much purpose, it's just... there. Much like Cut, it's a generic obstacle that really doesn't add much to the game.
    Well I hate water routes to begin with. I think they are just a tedious waste of time. To add to them would be like nailing JELL-O to a tree imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    Well I hate water routes to begin with. I think they are just a tedious waste of time. To add to them would be like nailing JELL-O to a tree imo.
    That's just your opinion. I think they're fine in small doses or if there's enough land sprinkled throughout the area. Besides, what are they gonna do, remove water from the game entirely? Then Surf would be pointless as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorocario View Post
    I knew the euro crisis got out of hand but this is ridiculous, its gotten to the point were people want a part time job in a video game.

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    Honestly, I've got no problem with water routes, or diving, I just wish they'd change them a bit so it doesn't seem so repetitive. Basically every water route is a straight(ish) waterway lines with rocks. Maybe they could have cliffs on one side, and an exploitable area on the other side (with trees or something to prevent you from wandering off the map, at least that's got more potential than a bunch of rocks).

  20. #3795

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    That's just your opinion. I think they're fine in small doses or if there's enough land sprinkled throughout the area. Besides, what are they gonna do, remove water from the game entirely? Then Surf would be pointless as well.
    I don't have a problem with water. I have a problem w/ long water routes. I don't have a problem with surfing to get to another island and running into a wild Pokemon here and there and stopping occasionally for an item.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agonist View Post
    Honestly, I've got no problem with water routes, or diving, I just wish they'd change them a bit so it doesn't seem so repetitive. Basically every water route is a straight(ish) waterway lines with rocks. Maybe they could have cliffs on one side, and an exploitable area on the other side (with trees or something to prevent you from wandering off the map, at least that's got more potential than a bunch of rocks).
    What, you mean Route 17/18?
    I explored that area once I beat the game and I'm really disappointed it wasn't in the main game. Plasma could've had a hideout in the P2 Lab or something. But that was definitely a Water route done right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    What, you mean Route 17/18?
    I explored that area once I beat the game and I'm really disappointed it wasn't in the main game. Plasma could've had a hideout in the P2 Lab or something. But that was definitely a Water route done right.
    I'll agree w/ you @ that. I was a fan of the 'puzzle' and its simplicity

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    I don't have a problem with water. I have a problem w/ long water routes. I don't have a problem with surfing to get to another island and running into a wild Pokemon here and there and stopping occasionally for an item.
    That's where they need to start sprinkling more interesting stuff (like islands and dive spots) to keep the longer water routes from getting too boring. I agree with you that long stretches of water can get tedious (especially in Hoenn's case), but if they divide it up into smaller chunks with several "rest spots" along the way, it's probably better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorocario View Post
    I knew the euro crisis got out of hand but this is ridiculous, its gotten to the point were people want a part time job in a video game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    That's where they need to start sprinkling more interesting stuff (like islands and dive spots) to keep the longer water routes from getting too boring. I agree with you that long stretches of water can get tedious (especially in Hoenn's case), but if they divide it up into smaller chunks with several "rest spots" along the way, it's probably better.
    Even though a lot of people say that Hoenn's water routes were terrible there were a lot of things Hoenn did right when it came to that particular area. It took me a pretty long time to fully explore the route between Slateport and Pacifidlog due to the multiple paths, and the dive spots around Mossdeep and Sootopolis were more complex than people think. I do think that the water routes disrupted the balance of the game though, but that's just Hoenn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poetry View Post
    Even though a lot of people say that Hoenn's water routes were terrible there were a lot of things Hoenn did right when it came to that particular area. It took me a pretty long time to fully explore the route between Slateport and Pacifidlog due to the multiple paths, and the dive spots around Mossdeep and Sootopolis were more complex than people think. I do think that the water routes disrupted the balance of the game though, but that's just Hoenn.
    I agree, but it's more Rt. 129-131 that were problematic since they were just generic water routes. It's really problematic getting from Mossdeep/Sootopolis to Pacifidlog by sea. Also, Rt. 124 is kind of confusing if you use Dive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorocario View Post
    I knew the euro crisis got out of hand but this is ridiculous, its gotten to the point were people want a part time job in a video game.

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