Unova Region Discussion/Speculation Thread [Read First Post]

[Taodragon]

Fly doesn't need to be improved in battle. What it does need is to be improved outside of battle by giving it some sort of use in exploration. For instance, what if it was like in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs, where you could explore the clouds, essentially being an aerial version of Surf? That'd be a good solution, IMO.

While granted it's not useful for exploration, fly has always been just a quick way to get from location A to B without the hassle of traveling. While something like that could be fun, but it could also get annoying since you'd have to play it repeatedly, even if you wanted to get somewhere in a hurry.

Maybe instead they could make it essential for getting somewhere that the other HMs can't, like a mountain peak town that has no caves or a completely closed off island.

[Excitable Boy]

Do we really want to cut down the HM list to being 3 or 4? It's something worth thinking about. Personally, I'd rather them find new ways to make HMs useful instead of downsizing them. It adds to exploration and puzzles.

Kinda. It means we would no longer have to carry multiple HM slaves. It's not as if HMs are the only way to create an overworld puzzle, anyway.

What about Rock Climb? Also, Fly does not need to be lowered its perfect as it is.

Rock Climb was dropped in Gen V. Including Fly as a TM would only mean that it could be rewritten as a move on the fly, pun intended entirely.

Wrong, Dive is not "just a liquid Dig" and it's infinitely more useful than the likes of Fly and Waterfall. It adds both a literal and a figurative depth to water routes, making them more varied and explorable, giving you access to areas you wouldn't otherwise, and new ways to catch wild Pokemon. It's one of the most useful HMs ever made, second only to Surf.

really

how could you possibly interpret that as in reference to its overworld usage

come on, now

Maybe instead they could make it essential for getting somewhere that the other HMs can't, like a mountain peak town that has no caves or a completely closed off island.

Which runs completely contrary to Fly being used only to access locations you've already visited, which would require either both Fly and said area to be post-game or one hell of an asspull.

[Taodragon]

Which runs completely contrary to Fly being used only to access locations you've already visited, which would require either both Fly and said area to be post-game or one hell of an asspull.

I always imagined it being like someone just giving you directions to the area in question and then showing you on a map the proper way to get there, or better yet, even having the guide join you for the trip to unlock the city and explain away any inconsistencies between other occasions.

Still it's not the best idea. The problem is fly has never been essential to the games structure and admittedly doesn't really have to be since having the option to get somewhere quickly is always preferred to not having it and traveling slowly. Maybe it's just best to let it be.

[Bolt the Cat]

While granted it's not useful for exploration, fly has always been just a quick way to get from location A to B without the hassle of traveling. While something like that could be fun, but it could also get annoying since you'd have to play it repeatedly, even if you wanted to get somewhere in a hurry.

That wouldn't detract from Fly's ability to take you where you want to go in an instant. Like with the Guardian Signs, while you're in the air you can pull up a list of areas to fly to and go there instantly.

Kinda. It means we would no longer have to carry multiple HM slaves. It's not as if HMs are the only way to create an overworld puzzle, anyway.

Good point, however I was thinking instead they could just make them decent battle moves to make them actually worth using for your team.

Rock Climb was dropped in Gen V.

That doesn't stop them from bringing it back if they really want to. They brought back Whirlpool and Dive (kinda) after skipping a generation. They can use whatever the hell they want for HMs, it doesn't matter how long it's been since we've used them.

really

how could you possibly interpret that as in reference to its overworld usage

come on, now

There's nothing wrong with it as a battle move either.

[Aurath8]

Which runs completely contrary to Fly being used only to access locations you've already visited, which would require either both Fly and said area to be post-game or one hell of an asspull.

For your first visit, an NPC takes you there on his [insert large Flying type here]. After which you're free to Fly directly to the location. Only problem is you can only Fly to towns, cities and the Pokemon League. Unless there's a town at the mountain peak.

There's nothing wrong with it as a battle move either.

Dive is a two-turn move. On the face of things, it looks like you'll have a similar result to Waterfall. At the end of the two turns, the opponent attacked and you attacked. There are a 2 problems with Dive.

1. The opponent can take advantage of the free turn to boost its stats, setup weather, Reflect/Light Screen and a number of other things while you just Dive.
2. Its just plain slow. By using a two-turn move you're doubling the time it takes to complete battle. Ain't nobody got time for Dive.

It may be a decently powerful move but the potential disadvantage and the extra time it takes really hurts its viability. Its a similar story with Fly.
Basically, I'd much rather that Dive be a one turn move than a two-turn one, or not be used at all. I don't see Fly going any time soon, so I'd love to see it changed to a one-turn move, albeit with a power drop to 80 or something.

[Bolt the Cat]

Dive is a two-turn move. On the face of things, it looks like you'll have a similar result to Waterfall. At the end of the two turns, the opponent attacked and you attacked. There are a 2 problems with Dive.

1. The opponent can take advantage of the free turn to boost its stats, setup weather, Reflect/Light Screen and a number of other things while you just Dive.
2. Its just plain slow. By using a two-turn move you're doubling the time it takes to complete battle. Ain't nobody got time for Dive.

Waterfall is more useless as a field move, so I'd rather see that removed instead.

[sAv1Or)]

Waterfall is more useless as a field move, so I'd rather see that removed instead.

imo, as a field move, Waterfall wins that battle hands down.

Dive gives you depth (pardon the pun) within the map/region, which is nice. But it really only has 1 use and I really wouldn't want it having anymore than that. Waterfall was cool in Gen IV when you needed it to reach items and get to different places within the map. It's a liquid Rock Climb, and since that is gone, Waterfall wins here. Although Waterfall has seen a slump in field usage, I still like the effect of it more than just going underwater. We also have a marine tube now so I don't have to use it.

And as a battle move, Dive is terrible. So I'm putting Dive in the same category as Cut.

[Bolt the Cat]

imo, as a field move, Waterfall wins that battle hands down.

Dive gives you depth (pardon the pun) within the map/region, which is nice. But it really only has 1 use and I really wouldn't want it having anymore than that. Waterfall was cool in Gen IV when you needed it to reach items and get to different places within the map. It's a liquid Rock Climb, and since that is gone, Waterfall wins here. Although Waterfall has seen a slump in field usage, I still like the effect of it more than just going underwater. We also have a marine tube now so I don't have to use it.

And as a battle move, Dive is terrible. So I'm putting Dive in the same category as Cut.

No, you've got it backwards, Waterfall only has one use, Dive has much more potential. It adds an extra level of exploration, allowing you to explore completely different areas underneath existing water routes allowing for a lot more creativity in regards to level design (and God knows water routes could use more of that). On top of that, it also gives you another way to catch Pokemon (even though it's only Water types, but there's a ton of Water types so that means more variety in Water types). Waterfall doesn't really have much purpose, it's just... there. Much like Cut, it's a generic obstacle that really doesn't add much to the game.

[Ememew]

Meanwhile, the number of ridiculous roadblocks continues to grow exponentially.

"Today we're dancing for no reason. Someday, we'll disappear for no reason." is at the top of my list for "silliest roadblock."

Anyway . . .

As far as single/multiple uses for Dive, just to clarify, but are you referring to 3rd or 5th Gen Dive? In Hoenn, there were plenty of dive spots and places to find underwater Pokemon (and I sometimes used dive to travel via water while avoiding Tentacool on the surface).

In Unova, it only has the purpose of exploring the Abyssal Ruins, which contain no wild Pokemon.

Because it looks to me like some people are discussing Dive in Hoenn terms and others are thinking in Unova terms, leading them to talk past one another.

I usually don't mind things like Waterfall and Cut as long as they give access to more than just a single blocked-off item per obstacle. When all that's on the other end is one item, and this happens consistently, then it just seems like the obstacle could have been replaced with something that didn't take a moveslot to get past. When the area opened by a roadblock is significantly larger (often the case in past-generation forest areas and a few waterfalls in Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Johto), then I can see it as more justifiable. Waterfall isn't that bad, actually, as it usually leads to more than one thing of interest: Lostlorn Forest: dark grass area. Route 11: a few items and an area below the falls with dark grass and a trainer. Route 14: Abundant Shrine area. . .

[Bolt the Cat]

As far as single/multiple uses for Dive, just to clarify, but are you referring to 3rd or 5th Gen Dive? In Hoenn, there were plenty of dive spots and places to find underwater Pokemon (and I sometimes used dive to travel via water while avoiding Tentacool on the surface).

In Unova, it only has the purpose of exploring the Abyssal Ruins, which contain no wild Pokemon.

3rd gen. 5th gen doesn't count.

[sAv1Or)]

No, you've got it backwards, Waterfall only has one use, Dive has much more potential. It adds an extra level of exploration, allowing you to explore completely different areas underneath existing water routes allowing for a lot more creativity in regards to level design (and God knows water routes could use more of that). On top of that, it also gives you another way to catch Pokemon (even though it's only Water types, but there's a ton of Water types so that means more variety in Water types). Waterfall doesn't really have much purpose, it's just... there. Much like Cut, it's a generic obstacle that really doesn't add much to the game.

Well I hate water routes to begin with. I think they are just a tedious waste of time. To add to them would be like nailing JELL-O to a tree imo.

[Bolt the Cat]

Well I hate water routes to begin with. I think they are just a tedious waste of time. To add to them would be like nailing JELL-O to a tree imo.

That's just your opinion. I think they're fine in small doses or if there's enough land sprinkled throughout the area. Besides, what are they gonna do, remove water from the game entirely? Then Surf would be pointless as well.

[Agonist]

Honestly, I've got no problem with water routes, or diving, I just wish they'd change them a bit so it doesn't seem so repetitive. Basically every water route is a straight(ish) waterway lines with rocks. Maybe they could have cliffs on one side, and an exploitable area on the other side (with trees or something to prevent you from wandering off the map, at least that's got more potential than a bunch of rocks).

[sAv1Or)]

That's just your opinion. I think they're fine in small doses or if there's enough land sprinkled throughout the area. Besides, what are they gonna do, remove water from the game entirely? Then Surf would be pointless as well.

I don't have a problem with water. I have a problem w/ long water routes. I don't have a problem with surfing to get to another island and running into a wild Pokemon here and there and stopping occasionally for an item.

[Aurath8]

Honestly, I've got no problem with water routes, or diving, I just wish they'd change them a bit so it doesn't seem so repetitive. Basically every water route is a straight(ish) waterway lines with rocks. Maybe they could have cliffs on one side, and an exploitable area on the other side (with trees or something to prevent you from wandering off the map, at least that's got more potential than a bunch of rocks).

What, you mean Route 17/18?
I explored that area once I beat the game and I'm really disappointed it wasn't in the main game. Plasma could've had a hideout in the P2 Lab or something. But that was definitely a Water route done right.

[sAv1Or)]

What, you mean Route 17/18?
I explored that area once I beat the game and I'm really disappointed it wasn't in the main game. Plasma could've had a hideout in the P2 Lab or something. But that was definitely a Water route done right.

I'll agree w/ you @ that. I was a fan of the 'puzzle' and its simplicity

[Bolt the Cat]

I don't have a problem with water. I have a problem w/ long water routes. I don't have a problem with surfing to get to another island and running into a wild Pokemon here and there and stopping occasionally for an item.

That's where they need to start sprinkling more interesting stuff (like islands and dive spots) to keep the longer water routes from getting too boring. I agree with you that long stretches of water can get tedious (especially in Hoenn's case), but if they divide it up into smaller chunks with several "rest spots" along the way, it's probably better.

[Poetry]

That's where they need to start sprinkling more interesting stuff (like islands and dive spots) to keep the longer water routes from getting too boring. I agree with you that long stretches of water can get tedious (especially in Hoenn's case), but if they divide it up into smaller chunks with several "rest spots" along the way, it's probably better.

Even though a lot of people say that Hoenn's water routes were terrible there were a lot of things Hoenn did right when it came to that particular area. It took me a pretty long time to fully explore the route between Slateport and Pacifidlog due to the multiple paths, and the dive spots around Mossdeep and Sootopolis were more complex than people think. I do think that the water routes disrupted the balance of the game though, but that's just Hoenn.

[Bolt the Cat]

Even though a lot of people say that Hoenn's water routes were terrible there were a lot of things Hoenn did right when it came to that particular area. It took me a pretty long time to fully explore the route between Slateport and Pacifidlog due to the multiple paths, and the dive spots around Mossdeep and Sootopolis were more complex than people think. I do think that the water routes disrupted the balance of the game though, but that's just Hoenn.

I agree, but it's more Rt. 129-131 that were problematic since they were just generic water routes. It's really problematic getting from Mossdeep/Sootopolis to Pacifidlog by sea. Also, Rt. 124 is kind of confusing if you use Dive.

[Agonist]

What, you mean Route 17/18?
I explored that area once I beat the game and I'm really disappointed it wasn't in the main game. Plasma could've had a hideout in the P2 Lab or something. But that was definitely a Water route done right.

I was actually referring to the Hoenn's long water routes (105-109 and 124-134). Although, 132-134 had the rapids, so they weren't quite as bad.

That's where they need to start sprinkling more interesting stuff (like islands and dive spots) to keep the longer water routes from getting too boring. I agree with you that long stretches of water can get tedious (especially in Hoenn's case), but if they divide it up into smaller chunks with several "rest spots" along the way, it's probably better.

Yeah, basically this. The water routes just need more points of interest.

[sAv1Or)]

Well if you could redesign any water route(s) in Unova, which ones would you change and what changes would you make?

[Bolt the Cat]

Well if you could redesign any water route(s) in Unova, which ones would you change and what changes would you make?

I don't really think many of Unova's water routes need redesigning. None of them are particularly long or boring, that's more of a problem with other regions. Maybe Rt. 21, which is slightly too mazelike for my liking. And not because it's confusing, moreso because the path snakes all around the route before you reach Seaside Cave.

[sAv1Or)]

I don't really think many of Unova's water routes need redesigning. None of them are particularly long or boring, that's more of a problem with other regions. Maybe Rt. 21, which is slightly too mazelike for my liking. And not because it's confusing, moreso because the path snakes all around the route before you reach Seaside Cave.

The first thing I thought of when I went down Rt.21 was the Whirl Islands and how much I hated their design :/

[Bolt the Cat]

The first thing I thought of when I went down Rt.21 was the Whirl Islands and how much I hated their design :/

I didn't mind Whirl Islands as much as I minded the surrounding water routes, which were so expansive and boring that it was hard to know where you were going.

[sAv1Or)]

I didn't mind Whirl Islands as much as I minded the surrounding water routes, which were so expansive and boring that it was hard to know where you were going.

That whole area in general. I think that's where my disliking for water routes began