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Thread: Expanded Pokedex Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

  1. #3976
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    It does, in fact. It gives you the potential for 12 species instead of 6.
    Not exactly. With Wild Pokémon encounters of a specific type in a specific area, there are 12 slots - 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 20%, 4 slots that each have an encounter rate of 10%, 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 5%, 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 4%, and 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 1%. Most areas don't fill each slot with a different Pokémon (in fact, I don't think any of them do), but some come fairly close. One example is Cliff Cave in HG/SS (but only in the morning and during the day), which has a different Pokémon in every slot except for the 1% slots, which are both filled with Steelix.

    http://www.serebii.net/pokearth/johto/cliffcave.shtml

    Now, that alone doesn't prove that there are 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 1% instead of 1 slot that has an encounter rate of 2%, but there are several areas that do prove this.

    For example, there's Areas 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 of the Great Marsh in D/P. In there, one of the 1% slots is dedicated to Azurill, while the other is dedicated to Bidoof.

    http://www.serebii.net/pokearth/sinnoh/greatmarsh.shtml

    It should also be noted that each slot also only contains 1 specific level if the encounter type is tall grass or walking around in a cave or building.


    As such, the shaking grass actually increases the potential capacity from 12 species to 24, and if dark grass is involved, that's a further increase to 36 species. However, there aren't any areas in any Unova game that actually take advantage of this fact by putting a different species of Pokémon in each encounter slot.

  2. #3977
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmanderandswampertguy View Post
    It wouldve made more sense in my oppion eg, people in unova cn easily get milk aka miltank
    It's very heavily implied that they import it.

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  3. #3978
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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    It's very heavily implied that they import it.
    I could have sworn they outright state this

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_N View Post
    I could have sworn they outright state this
    Pretty sure they do in BW.

  5. #3980

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    Quote Originally Posted by charmanderandswampertguy View Post
    If i was in charge of the expanded pokedex

    instead of I would have

    Shuckle / Miltank

    It wouldve made more sense in my oppion eg, people in unova cn easily get milk aka miltank
    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    It's very heavily implied that they import it.
    Which is why i disagree with this change you would have made.

    If Miltank were available it would have messed up the whole concept of them importing it to Unova

  6. #3981
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharizardFire6 View Post
    Not exactly. With Wild Pokémon encounters of a specific type in a specific area, there are 12 slots - 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 20%, 4 slots that each have an encounter rate of 10%, 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 5%, 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 4%, and 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 1%. Most areas don't fill each slot with a different Pokémon (in fact, I don't think any of them do), but some come fairly close. One example is Cliff Cave in HG/SS (but only in the morning and during the day), which has a different Pokémon in every slot except for the 1% slots, which are both filled with Steelix.

    http://www.serebii.net/pokearth/johto/cliffcave.shtml

    Now, that alone doesn't prove that there are 2 slots that each have an encounter rate of 1% instead of 1 slot that has an encounter rate of 2%, but there are several areas that do prove this.

    For example, there's Areas 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 of the Great Marsh in D/P. In there, one of the 1% slots is dedicated to Azurill, while the other is dedicated to Bidoof.

    http://www.serebii.net/pokearth/sinnoh/greatmarsh.shtml

    It should also be noted that each slot also only contains 1 specific level if the encounter type is tall grass or walking around in a cave or building.


    As such, the shaking grass actually increases the potential capacity from 12 species to 24, and if dark grass is involved, that's a further increase to 36 species. However, there aren't any areas in any Unova game that actually take advantage of this fact by putting a different species of Pokémon in each encounter slot.
    Well if you want to get technical, yeah, they can have more. I was just using a rough average (most areas usually don't have more than 6 or 7). My point was that Shaking Spots and Double Grass could potentially double or triple the amount of Pokemon available per area.

    Quote Originally Posted by charmanderandswampertguy View Post
    If i was in charge of the expanded pokedex

    instead of / I would have

    Dusparace / Pichu
    Bronzor / Pikachu
    Bronzong / Raichu
    Swablu / Ponyta
    Altaria / Rapidash
    Corsola / Kangaskan
    Shuckle / Miltank
    Driflum / Hoothoot
    Driblum / Noctowl
    Baltoy / Girafarage
    Claydol Nosepass / Poocheyna
    Probelass / Mightheyna
    Castform / Wrumple
    Budew / Silcoon
    Roselia / Cascoon
    Roserade / Beatifly
    Corphish / Dustox
    Crawdraunt / Shinx
    Magnemite / Luxio
    Magneton / Luxray
    Magnezone / Meowth
    Cleffa / Persian
    Clefairy / Krabby
    Clefable / Kingler
    Igglybuff / Rhyhorn
    Jigglypuff / Rhydon
    Wigglytuff / Rhyperior
    Grimer / Phanpy
    Muk / Donphan
    Seel / Hippotas
    Dewgong / Hippodown


    It wouldve made more sense in my oppion eg, people in unova cn easily get milk aka miltank
    That's not even balanced, you'd need to add one more Pokemon to even it out. Other than that, IDK, I think it might have a negative effect on the type distribution, but I can't quite tell just by looking at it.
    Last edited by Bolt the Cat; 17th November 2012 at 11:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  7. #3982

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    That's not even balanced, you'd need to add one more Pokemon to even it out. Other than that, IDK, I think it might have a negative effect on the type distribution, but I can't quite tell just by looking at it.
    This was my thought as well. The trade-offs were not even equal. For instance: Magnezone/Meowth

  8. #3983
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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    This was my thought as well. The trade-offs were not even equal. For instance: Magnezone/Meowth
    That's because they're not meant to be individual tradeoffs, you have to look at the list as a whole. But here's why it's not balanced:

    Quote Originally Posted by charmanderandswampertguy View Post
    If i was in charge of the expanded pokedex

    instead of / I would have

    Dusparace / Pichu
    Bronzor / Pikachu
    Bronzong / Raichu
    Swablu / Ponyta
    Altaria / Rapidash
    Corsola / Kangaskan
    Shuckle / Miltank
    Driflum / Hoothoot
    Driblum / Noctowl
    Baltoy / Girafarage
    Claydol Nosepass / Poocheyna
    Probelass / Mightheyna
    Castform / Wrumple
    Budew / Silcoon
    Roselia / Cascoon
    Roserade / Beatifly
    Corphish / Dustox
    Crawdraunt / Shinx
    Magnemite / Luxio
    Magneton / Luxray
    Magnezone / Meowth
    Cleffa / Persian
    Clefairy / Krabby
    Clefable / Kingler
    Igglybuff / Rhyhorn
    Jigglypuff / Rhydon
    Wigglytuff / Rhyperior
    Grimer / Phanpy
    Muk / Donphan
    Seel / Hippotas
    Dewgong / Hippodown


    It wouldve made more sense in my oppion eg, people in unova cn easily get milk aka miltank
    He removed one more Pokemon than he replaced, so this Dex wouldn't actually have 300 Pokemon in it, it'd have 299.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  9. #3984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    That's not even balanced, you'd need to add one more Pokemon to even it out. Other than that, IDK, I think it might have a negative effect on the type distribution, but I can't quite tell just by looking at it.
    With regard to type distribution, these appear to be the net changes:

    Gained:
    2 Fire-types
    3 Electric-types
    5 Ground-types
    4 Bug-types
    1 Dark-type

    Lost:
    2 Normal-types
    3 Water-types
    3 Grass-types
    1 Ice-type
    4 Poison-types
    1 Flying-type
    3 Psychic-types
    1 Rock-type
    2 Ghost-types
    1 Dragon-type
    6 Steel-types

    That being said, if we assume that all of the added Pokémon were available in the main game, these would be the net changes in terms of Pokémon available in the main game:

    Gained:
    2 Normal-types
    2 Fire-types
    3 Electric-types
    5 Ground-types
    4 Bug-types
    2 Dark-types

    Lost:
    1 Water-type
    2 Grass-types
    1 Ice-type
    3 Poison-types
    3 Psychic-types
    1 Rock-type
    1 Ghost-type
    1 Dragon-type
    6 Steel-types

    ... Well, it certainly doesn't look good for Steel-type distribution.

  10. #3985
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharizardFire6 View Post
    With regard to type distribution, these appear to be the net changes:

    Gained:
    2 Fire-types
    3 Electric-types
    5 Ground-types
    4 Bug-types
    1 Dark-type

    Lost:
    2 Normal-types
    3 Water-types
    3 Grass-types
    1 Ice-type
    4 Poison-types
    1 Flying-type
    3 Psychic-types
    1 Rock-type
    2 Ghost-types
    1 Dragon-type
    6 Steel-types

    That being said, if we assume that all of the added Pokémon were available in the main game, these would be the net changes in terms of Pokémon available in the main game:

    Gained:
    2 Normal-types
    2 Fire-types
    3 Electric-types
    5 Ground-types
    4 Bug-types
    2 Dark-types

    Lost:
    1 Water-type
    2 Grass-types
    1 Ice-type
    3 Poison-types
    3 Psychic-types
    1 Rock-type
    1 Ghost-type
    1 Dragon-type
    6 Steel-types

    ... Well, it certainly doesn't look good for Steel-type distribution.
    Yeah, that's what I thought. You're losing variety with a lot of these changes. The Unova Dex is fine the way it is in terms of the Pokemon actually in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  11. #3986

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Yeah, that's what I thought. You're losing variety with a lot of these changes. The Unova Dex is fine the way it is in terms of the Pokemon actually in it.
    I think it comes down to location more than what they actually put into there @ this point

    After the release of dual-types, I feel like the distribution process became a little more difficult

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    I think it comes down to location more than what they actually put into there @ this point
    Sort of, but you should always have a reasonable amount of each type, though. I'd say at least 6 per type (maybe 4 or 5 for rarer types like Dragon, it depends really), enough for one to raise a full team. It shouldn't be like, say DP's Sinnoh Dex where you only have 2 Fire types (one of which is a starter), 3 Electric types, 2 Ice types, etc, with the sheer amount and diversity of Pokemon in the National Dex now there's no excuse to make regional dexes so horribly imbalanced ever again.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  13. #3988

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Sort of, but you should always have a reasonable amount of each type, though. I'd say at least 6 per type (maybe 4 or 5 for rarer types like Dragon, it depends really), enough for one to raise a full team. It shouldn't be like, say DP's Sinnoh Dex where you only have 2 Fire types (one of which is a starter), 3 Electric types, 2 Ice types, etc, with the sheer amount and diversity of Pokemon in the National Dex now there's no excuse to make regional dexes so horribly imbalanced ever again.
    DP did a bad job @ distribution to me. I would actually prefer it like BW2 where @ the beginning you had a good basis to choose from. Not a wide variety, but a good selection of Pokemon

  14. #3989
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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    DP did a bad job @ distribution to me. I would actually prefer it like BW2 where @ the beginning you had a good basis to choose from. Not a wide variety, but a good selection of Pokemon
    I agree, but those are separate issues. You can have a good variety of Pokemon but bad distribution, and vice versa. For instance, DP has a bad variety of Pokemon, but what you can get, you usually get at a reasonable point in the game. On the other hand you have BW2, which has a great variety of Pokemon but most of them are too clustered in certain sections and many of them are too late in the game to be of much use. They need to avoid both of these scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  15. #3990

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    I agree, but those are separate issues. You can have a good variety of Pokemon but bad distribution, and vice versa. For instance, DP has a bad variety of Pokemon, but what you can get, you usually get at a reasonable point in the game. On the other hand you have BW2, which has a great variety of Pokemon but most of them are too clustered in certain sections and many of them are too late in the game to be of much use. They need to avoid both of these scenarios.
    I imagine to find a complete balance would be pretty difficult. You also have to remember that this is strictly opinion based and their are just as many people who agree with the distribution as those who don't.

    And part of the fun is catching a Pokemon late in the game and raising it to the Level you would like it to be at. If I were to catch every Pokemon on time, it would make the game a heck of a lot easier.

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    I am 100% on board with late game Pokemon like BW2 did
    It keeps things more fresh and interesting. Compare to the Sevii Islands after Cinnabar, or Victory Road or what have you. Same bland Pokemon again and again.
    Or Hoenn's late game which is plagued by GameFreak's inability to put more than 2 to 3 things things in surf water.
    Meanwhile WHOAH gligars and lunatones and absols and then SAY WHAT look at all these ice types OH MAN bouffalant and sawk/throh and....

    I would have enjoyed it in GSC's kanto had it been more widespread and not dealing with....other....issues.

  17. #3992

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_N View Post
    I am 100% on board with late game Pokemon like BW2 did
    It keeps things more fresh and interesting. Compare to the Sevii Islands after Cinnabar, or Victory Road or what have you. Same bland Pokemon again and again.
    Or Hoenn's late game which is plagued by GameFreak's inability to put more than 2 to 3 things things in surf water.
    Meanwhile WHOAH gligars and lunatones and absols and then SAY WHAT look at all these ice types OH MAN bouffalant and sawk/throh and....

    I would have enjoyed it in GSC's kanto had it been more widespread and not dealing with....other....issues.
    I agree with you here. I enjoy the late game burst. It's a good morale boost when you think you've seen it all and something you haven't seen or expected pops up.

  18. #3993
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_N View Post
    I am 100% on board with late game Pokemon like BW2 didIt keeps things more fresh and interesting. Compare to the Sevii Islands after Cinnabar, or Victory Road or what have you. Same bland Pokemon again and again.Or Hoenn's late game which is plagued by GameFreak's inability to put more than 2 to 3 things things in surf water.Meanwhile WHOAH gligars and lunatones and absols and then SAY WHAT look at all these ice types OH MAN bouffalant and sawk/throh and....
    It's a good thing in moderation, yes, but you can't tell me BW2 didn't go too far with it. I'm fine with having a few Pokemon later in the game, but a third of the Unova Dex? That's just ridiculous. I think part of the problem with the earlier games having too little variety later in the game is that the earlier regional dexes were smaller, from now on we're probably going to be getting 200-300 Pokemon regional dexes so that should open things up for more variety. That is assuming they don't decide to make future regions bigger.Anyway, these are the only Pokemon I think should've been late game (meaning Reversal Mountain on in case we weren't on the same page:

        Spoiler:


    And none of them would be post game, leaving it open for National Dex Pokemon that are hard or impossible to get in 5th gen (Pikachu, Scyther, Tauros, Miltank, Machoke, Kirlia, Kadabra, Electrode, Porygon, Snorunt, Snover, Shelgon, and Unown come to mind). I think that would be a pretty good balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by R_N View Post
    I would have enjoyed it in GSC's kanto had it been more widespread and not dealing with....other....issues.
    GSC is an entirely different situation, because you've got two regions and a loosely defined postgame. I do think the distribution should've been different, every Johto Pokemon or Pokemon that has a new evolution (Houndour, Murkrow, Slugma, Pikachu, Chansey, etc. possibly with the exception of Larvitar) should've been available in Johto while some of the rarer Kanto Pokemon (Tangela, Farfetch'd, Staryu, and Seel for example) should've been withheld until Kanto.
    Last edited by Bolt the Cat; 6th December 2012 at 4:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  19. #3994

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    It's a good thing in moderation, yes, but you can't tell me BW2 didn't go too far with it. I'm fine with having a few Pokemon later in the game, but a third of the Unova Dex? That's just ridiculous. I think part of the problem with the earlier games having too little variety later in the game is that the earlier regional dexes were smaller, from now on we're probably going to be getting 200-300 Pokemon regional dexes so that should open things up for more variety. That is assuming they don't decide to make future regions bigger.
    Well seeing how early game, imo, is just obtaining your badges and getting your feet on the ground, having them provide 1 option for type advantage and 1 or 2 others just for dex or favor's sake is the direction I think they should go for early game Pokemon.

    Not to mention that this may be some people's 1st Pokemon game. I don't think they want to flood the newcomers with tons of variety leaving them with perplexing situations on what to go with. It seems as though they distributed the early Pokemon paralleled with the key concepts of team building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    Well seeing how early game, imo, is just obtaining your badges and getting your feet on the ground, having them provide 1 option for type advantage and 1 or 2 others just for dex or favor's sake is the direction I think they should go for early game Pokemon.

    Not to mention that this may be some people's 1st Pokemon game. I don't think they want to flood the newcomers with tons of variety leaving them with perplexing situations on what to go with.
    That's not how I play, and I don't think that's how they should force others to play. For me, I try to form my team gradually throughout the game, and try to have it almost fully formed by about the 6th gym. Putting a huge chunk of the Dex late in the game (not to mention that many of the previous gen Pokemon are in that group) detracts from that. It's better to have a few new options every step of the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    It seems as though they distributed the early Pokemon paralleled with the key concepts of team building.
    For the first two gyms, maybe, the distribution was appropriate there. But mid game? Not so much. It was mainly same old, same old with a few new Pokemon sprinkled in. Meanwhile, a lot of team members I had considered were too late in the game to be of much use anyway. And a lot of the ones I hadn't considered are still unreasonable. Water and Ice type distribution is very poor, with nearly all of them clustered into a single late game area. Marshland Pokemon like Palpitoad, Stunfisk, and Croagunk are post game due to not having an appropriate habitat (personally I think Rt. 22 would've fit well enough, but meh). A lot of East Unovan natives were kept where they were and their new storyline position seems to have been disregarded (even to the point where developers seem to have forgotten that you won't have Waterfall by the time you reach Rt. 14 and can't access Abundant Shrine until much later). A new storyline path means that you need to completely rethink the distribution to make sure there's appropriate options every step of the way, and they failed to do that here.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  21. #3996

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    That's not how I play, and I don't think that's how they should force others to play. For me, I try to form my team gradually throughout the game, and try to have it almost fully formed by about the 6th gym. Putting a huge chunk of the Dex late in the game (not to mention that many of the previous gen Pokemon are in that group) detracts from that. It's better to have a few new options every step of the way.
    Well for new people, they don't have their own playstyle yet. So it's nice that they guide them to developing one, if that is what they're doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    Well for new people, they don't have their own playstyle yet. So it's nice that they guide them to developing one, if that is what they're doing.
    It would be more effective if they gave the player more options as opposed to less.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  23. #3998

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    It would be more effective if they gave the player more options as opposed to less.
    But if they gave them the 'right' options, it would help drive the concept further and easier. I'd rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    But if they gave them the 'right' options, it would help drive the concept further and easier. I'd rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
    I'd rather the game have many Pokémon throughout all its routes, though. By having many Pokémon throughout each route, the player is then not forced to use the same Pokémon throughout each run. This would reduce the chance of the player thinking that going with the Pokémon they're supplied with in the beginning of the game is the only "right" choice, and make the game more open in that the player is free to develop their own play style at the beginning of the game rather than at the end.





    [IMG]http://i49.*******.com/2h6dobp.png[/IMG]

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    Quote Originally Posted by sAv1Or) View Post
    But if they gave them the 'right' options, it would help drive the concept further and easier. I'd rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
    Problem is, there are many "right" options, forcing players to use one "right" option detracts from the freedom of the game. I don't think they should have everything at once, that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying they should have a reasonable amount of options for a particular scenario, not just one or two.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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