A Restoration Confrontation! (Part 2) (737

[Kieran-kun]

Surely some of you guys also picked up on this too, maybe it's already written but whatever.

How the Hell did they find a Protega fossil, when they sent it's evolved form back in to the past? They should have found the fossil of it's evolution right? Not it's pre-evolved form. Yeah that was the only thing that bothered me. Otherwise a pretty standard episode. It wasn't bad but wasn't one of the best either

[Ciccone]

It was a boring "TR steals a Pokemon" episode, and if you can't deal with an opinion, don't read the threads.

Don't even waste your breath, sis. Some people are too stubborn to admit that the plot in this episode was recycled from another set of episodes. I think our time would be better spent focusing on some of the other aspects of the episode, like Tirtouga. I was actually looking forward to seeing it in the anime, but I gotta admit that I wasn't too pleased at first. It honestly seemed weak while it was a Tirtouga, but it became a lot more impressive when it evolved. That's the first time in a long time that I've been glad to witness an evolution.

[Haunter227]

Speaking instead of arguments and debates, i enjoyed how Ash finally met Zager, the time hole idea, and the great choice of music. I didn't expect Movie 13's Celebi song in their at the end.

[shac]

Surely some of you guys also picked up on this too, maybe it's already written but whatever.

How the Hell did they find a Protega fossil, when they sent it's evolved form back in to the past? They should have found the fossil of it's evolution right? Not it's pre-evolved form. Yeah that was the only thing that bothered me. Otherwise a pretty standard episode. It wasn't bad but wasn't one of the best either

they found the portuga fossil because the events in the present had not occurred at that point. That's how time change has been shown in the anime. Remember the Arceus movie? Arceus did not recognize Ash and Co. as friends right away., Ash had to travel to the past and change things, and only then Arceus saw them as allies.

If that geeky guy goes back to the cave and digs up a fossil now, I think he will find it as a the evolved form of Portuga.

[Kieran-kun]

they found the portuga fossil because the events in the present had not occurred at that point. That's how time change has been shown in the anime. Remember the Arceus movie? Arceus did not recognize Ash and Co. as friends right away., Ash had to travel to the past and change things, and only then Arceus saw them as allies.

If that geeky guy goes back to the cave and digs up a fossil now, I think he will find it as a the evolved form of Portuga.

I haven't seen that movie, but time travel is some confusing stuff...

Surely if he dug up a protega fossil even though in the past it evolved, then he should have dug up a fossil of it's evolved form instead. If it's evolved in the past the event of it evolving in the future should never happen, because it already has. If that makes sense? It'd have to be a Protega in the past for him to dig up a Protega fossil in the future, but because it's evolved it rewrites time and he should have found it's evolved form's fossil at the beginning of last episode instead, haha.

Obviously I'm not taking it seriously or anything it's only an anime, I just tend to over think things sometimes

[Haunter227]

I haven't seen that movie, but time travel is some confusing stuff...

Surely if he dug up a protega fossil even though in the past it evolved, then he should have dug up a fossil of it's evolved form instead. If it's evolved in the past the event of it evolving in the future should never happen, because it already has. If that makes sense? It'd have to be a Protega in the past for him to dig up a Protega fossil in the future, but because it's evolved it rewrites time and he should have found it's evolved form's fossil at the beginning of last episode instead, haha.

Obviously I'm not taking it seriously or anything it's only an anime, I just tend to over think things sometimes

I understand you, but to make it simple i'll list the events and situations, it's all explained really when you think about it, look at it like this:

-In the past, Turtouga lived it's life and never evolved and ultimately became a fossil as years went by.
-In the present (during the two parter) Fujio found Turtougas fossil and Turtouga soon evolves into Carracosta. Carracosta then returned back to it' original past when it was a Turtouga.
-In the past (again), Carracosta is now living it's life again in the same past era being evolved instead. It is unknown whether it would meet it's past self as a Turtouga.
-In the present (as soon as the two parter finished) Carracostas fossil whilst not being shown would ultimately have appeared somewhere in Twist Mountain, and whether it's past self as a Turtouga still existed, another Turtouga fossil could have appeared too.

[Spider-Phoenix]

Si enjoyed how Ash finally met Zager, the time hole idea, and the great choice of music. I didn't expect Movie 13's Celebi song in their at the end.

I like seeing Ash's meeting with Zager, but I wasn't a big fan of the whole time hole idea. Sure, it has its interesting side specially for showing a new light in the time-travel concept, but I didn't like *much* how it was handled in this episode.

[Kieran-kun]

I understand you, but to make it simple i'll list the events and situations, it's all explained really when you think about it, look at it like this:

-In the past, Turtouga lived it's life and never evolved and ultimately became a fossil as years went by.
-In the present (during the two parter) Fujio found Turtougas fossil and Turtouga soon evolves into Carracosta. Carracosta then returned back to it' original past when it was a Turtouga.
-In the past (again), Carracosta is now living it's life again in the same past era being evolved instead. It is unknown whether it would meet it's past self as a Turtouga.
-In the present (as soon as the two parter finished) Carracostas fossil whilst not being shown would ultimately have appeared somewhere in Twist Mountain, and whether it's past self as a Turtouga still existed, another Turtouga fossil could have appeared too.

Ah good point! I dind't think about the fact that there could be two of them, Carrocosta returned from the future and Turtouga still in the past. So it makes sense to say that it could meet itself in the past haha. That'll do, thanks for clearing up that troublesome puzzle in my head.

[dman_dustin]

It's episodes like this that make me hate the writers for their stupidity.

Yes this is primarily about Ash only using Pikachu and Oshawott, but I feel if any time was warranted to complain about that, it would be this episode.


Ash was caught in a Team Rocket energy cage, Ash used Pikachu's thunderbolt, with no effect whatsoever, then Ash talked with Team Rocket, with Team Rocket telling Ash what they're going to do (at least I assume that's what Team Rocket was doing) then afterwards Ash told Pikachu to use thunderbolt again

WHAT?

Do you honestly believe talking to team rocket, somehow decreased the energy cage's power, enough that Pikachu could destroy it by having it use thunderbolt again?

Ash are you really THAT stupid. This pissed me off, or rather irked me and made me hate the episode instantly (granted I was never going to like the episode anyway, that scene just cemented it). It's bad enough that only Oshawott was used, but relying on Pikachu only even when it did absolutely nothing is stupid.

If an attack doesn't work, and unless the energy cage prevented you from sending out another Pokemon (not sure if that was explained, maybe it was), you don't use the same failure Pokemon, when NOTHING changed, use a different Pokemon, use a whole lot of Pokemon, and hopefully overload the energy cage.

Now if something hit the energy cage from the outside or Pikachu used other moves, or maybe some weird electrical malfunction occurred. Then fine use Pikachu's thunderbolt again. But thinking that something was going to happen after just talking with Team Rocket, is just stupid.

I will say I didn't understand what was going on, and maybe this was addressed, but I doubt there was any justification for Pikachu using thunderbolt, then pause while talking, and then thunderbolting the energy cage again, expecting something to happen.

[AgentPierce]

It's not that I can't handle the debate, it's that you're getting your panties in a knot over nothing. People have opinions. There is no need to get so hot and bothered just because some people found an episode boring. Get over it.

I get that people have opinions: having different views and having tolerance for that is the whole message of the Pokemon Black and White games' story. However, I'm willing to argue when people have stupid opinions. And yes, there is such a thing.

Oh you know what I mean, stop grasping at straws. I found the episode boring because it was uninteresting and there was nothing exciting about it to me. Why do you have such an unbelievable problem with that?

Okay, fine. I can see that. It's like how I found most Paul or Team Galactic episodes in Sinnoh.

Even if Ash meeting Zager (I don't see why you're making him out to be some massively influential character) is brought up again, that's hardly enough to justify a two-parter.

Zager may not be "massively influential" but he is essentially the guy filling in for Giovanni on this show now. So as of now, this is the closest thing to "meeting the boss" that Ash has had.

It was a boring "TR steals a Pokemon" episode, and if you can't deal with an opinion, don't read the threads.

It was an interesting "TR steals a Pokemon" episode, if you can't deal with THAT opinion, then just shut up and go about your business.

Some people are too stubborn to admit that the plot in this episode was recycled from another set of episodes.

First off, what particular set of episodes? And secondly, yeah, I sure would never admit that this anime recycles plots from other episodes. Like, the one about Tepig and his former trainer that followed this was in no way whatsoever a rip-off of Charmander from...oh, wait.

[Janovy]

It was an interesting "TR steals a Pokemon" episode, if you can't deal with THAT opinion, then just shut up and go about your business.

Dude, do you see what you are doing?

SS just said that people have opinions and here you are attacking people? What the hell is wrong with you? This was a boring episode, IN MY FREAKING OPINION. And yes, unlike you, I can deal with someone's opinion.

Stop being immature and accept that other people have opinions.

Stupid or not, opinions are opinions - you are not allowed to attack people. If I were to attack someone for having a stupid opinion, it would be you because, IN MY OPINION, Paul storyline and Team Galactic episodes were amazing. But am I going to attack you for having your opinion?

No.

Now shut the hell up and let others post as they please.

[AgentPierce]

Dude, do you see what you are doing?
SS just said that people have opinions and here you are attacking people? What the hell is wrong with you? This was a boring episode, IN MY FREAKING OPINION. And yes, unlike you, I can deal with someone's opinion. Stop being immature and accept that other people have opinions.

And you obviously haven't been paying attention because I've acknowledeged it was an opinion and I can accept that. But saying "it's my opinion, deal with it" is, quite frankly, a cowardly way out of a debate. The whole point of debating is to make your argument and convice the other side that your opinion is, in it's own way, as valid and correct as their opinion. Perhaps calling another's opinion "stupid" isn't the right way to challenge it and for that I'm sorry, but I had no intention of "attacking" anyone. And who's being immature here? From what I can see, I'm not the one posting things out in all caps of rage.

If I were to attack someone for having a stupid opinion, it would be you because, IN MY OPINION, Paul storyline and Team Galactic episodes were amazing. But am I going to attack you for having your opinion?

Well in a backhanded way, you sort of just did. And in my opinion, there was nothing amazing about a storyline with a boring character, a boring pokemon, a terribly written conflict, and the same thing happening over and over and over again (the Paul storyline), and Team Galactic just did things better than how Teams Aqua and Magma did them but inferior to how Team Rocket is doing things now.

Now shut the hell up and let others post as they please.

Only if you're willing to let me post as I please. Because all I've been saying is my opinion, and I have the right to express it here too just as much as the rest of you have to argue with it. It's freedom of speech, people.

[Bullkid]

debate

People said they didn't like the episode, you asked them why they didn't like it, they explained why decently with no intention of turning the thread into a huge argument, and you chose to keep it going. If there was any debate here, it was forced.

[Valoo.]

I get that people have opinions: having different views and having tolerance for that is the whole message of the Pokemon Black and White games' story. However, I'm willing to argue when people have stupid opinions. And yes, there is such a thing.

Well, hey, as soon as you're ready to actually show us how you're opinion is totally definitely the right one instead of spewing "IT WAS INTERESTING OK", we'll listen. These opinions aren't stupid, they're just regular. People found the episode boring, please get over it.

Zager may not be "massively influential" but he is essentially the guy filling in for Giovanni on this show now. So as of now, this is the closest thing to "meeting the boss" that Ash has had.

Even if Ash meeting the fabulous Dr. Zager was important, I still found the episodes boring (oh no).

It was an interesting "TR steals a Pokemon" episode, if you can't deal with THAT opinion, then just shut up and go about your business.

are
are you aware of how idiotic this is

Like, seriously. Please, continue to repeat that it was interesting, it doesn't make you sound hypocritical at all. You claim that we're not allowed to dislike an episode, yet you're allowed to say that it was definitely interesting? I'm sorry, but I don't recall you being allowed to dictate whether or not we found an episode interesting, and this reeks of hypocrisy.

And you obviously haven't been paying attention because I've acknowledeged it was an opinion and I can accept that. But saying "it's my opinion, deal with it" is, quite frankly, a cowardly way out of a debate. The whole point of debating is to make your argument and convice the other side that your opinion is, in it's own way, as valid and correct as their opinion. Perhaps calling another's opinion "stupid" isn't the right way to challenge it

I can hear the hypocrisy :u

The only way you've backed up your opinion so far is by repeating it, while pretty much everyone else has given various reasons for disliking the episode, for a lack of action to it having no overall consequence.

Only if you're willing to let me post as I please. Because all I've been saying is my opinion, and I have the right to express it here too just as much as the rest of you have to argue with it. It's freedom of speech, people.

Yeah, ok, then go ahead and post why you liked it. Don't jump down people's throats because they didn't.

Again, why does people disliking this episode (and Team Rocket and Trip too, actually) get your knickers in such a knot? Just because people don't have the same opinion as you doesn't mean that they're wrong. You have a ridiculous bias against Paul, and towards Trip and TR. Why must you post to slander/defend them all of the time?

[Janovy]

It's freedom of speech, people.

Does freedom of speech allow you to force your opinion onto others?

Nah, I don't think so.

[AgentPierce]

People said they didn't like the episode, you asked them why they didn't like it, they explained why decently with no intention of turning the thread into a huge argument, and you chose to keep it going. If there was any debate here, it was forced. .

Debates and arguments often get blown out of porportion like this. I suppose this is what I get for making this thread anything other than "OMG, this was so boring! We hate this episode! Team Rocket sucks!"

Well, hey, as soon as you're ready to actually show us how you're opinion is totally definitely the right one instead of spewing "IT WAS INTERESTING OK", we'll listen. These opinions aren't stupid, they're just regular. People found the episode boring, please get over it.

LOL, no. There's no such thing as a "totally definitely right opinion": I know that. I've given my reasons for why I found these episodes okay, but even if I were to go on, you'd refuse to listen. And of course these "stupid" opinions are regular... for fans of this anime, that is. I bet if there was a whole thread dedicated to how a Hunter J or Team Galactic episode was boring and meaningless, there'd be dozens of people crawling to the episodes' defense.

Yeah, I've gotten over that these people found this episode boring. You please get over yourself now.

Even if Ash meeting the fabulous Dr. Zager was important, I still found the episodes boring (oh no).

Probably because Zager proceeded to give a bunch of exposition that you didn't have the attention span for. But even so, I still found the episode interesting (oh no, someone likes a BW TR pokemon theft mission episode! BURN THE WITCH!)

Please, continue to repeat that it was interesting, it doesn't make you sound hypocritical at all. You claim that we're not allowed to dislike an episode, yet you're allowed to say that it was definitely interesting? I'm sorry, but I don't recall you being allowed to dictate whether or not we found an episode interesting, and this reeks of hypocrisy.

LOL, you didn't even notice how I called it an opinion. Nowhere have I said you're "not allowed" to think or feel a certain way about an episode. But again, in a debate, you cannot say "well in my opinion, this was..."; I really believe in what I'm saying and I'm going to make that known. I am now willing to shut up about the matter because you don't see things my way: feel free to go on hating the episode all you like, just talk to someone else about it.

The only way you've backed up your opinion so far is by repeating it, while pretty much everyone else has given various reasons for disliking the episode, for a lack of action to it having no overall consequence

But I at least haven't resorted to saying "it's just my opinon!" because, again, I believe in what I'm arguing here. And I have been counterarguing why people's claims for not liking it don't fly (for instance: lack of action. In the first part, yeah. But in the second part? How would you define "action" then?): you people are just not really listening and insist on arguing "it still doesn't matter much! It was boring!"

Just because people don't have the same opinion as you doesn't mean that they're wrong.

Yeah, I freaking get that. That doesn't mean I should just keep quiet about what I disagree with. Again, freedom of speech. I can totally handle you firing back at me with your different opinions. But if you can't do the same, then why are you even on the internet?

You have a ridiculous bias against Paul, and towards Trip and TR. Why must you post to slander/defend them all of the time? .

Perhaps it is bias against Paul (because I think he's a seriously boring character and really, how could anyone stand to be around someone like him?), but in the case of Trip and TR, it's not bias: it's liking. Why must I not post my disagreements with people who trash them? I'm not "not allowing them to have their opinions" but I'm arguing mine: I shouldn't have to keep meek and quiet about the stuff I feel strongly about. The idea that one shouldn't try defending these characters and just let the majority go on and on about their opinion on a thread is a biased double standard in of itself.

Does freedom of speech allow you to force your opinion onto others?

No it doesn't. Thus why that's not what I've been doing at all. The notion that I've been trying to "force" people to see things my way is a product of their insecure imaginations.

[The Great Butler]

This whole thing is getting completely out of hand.

Both sides have given decent enough arguments as to why they feel the way they do, so there is absolutely no reason for it to devolve into this petty *****fighting. Period. This is not Bulbagarden where every single member has to fall in line with the same train of thought; we're actually capable of acting somewhat like adults instead of cranky hipster children who want to live in 1998, so show it. Seriously, go open the Stopping the Rage of Legends! Part 2 thread on there and watch as Dogasu bullies people because they disagree with him about Team Rocket. We're better as a whole than that, so show it.

Personally though, AgentPierce, even though I don't totally agree with how you're delivering your arguments, I agree with your actual point. I concur that this is born of a hysterical hatred some people have for Team Rocket coupled with a desire to go back to how they were before, completely not realizing that Team Rocket's actions before are the reason why they hate then in the first place; there's evidence of that in this very thread. You can also look at the aforementioned Iron Island arc as well as the episode where Saturn and Charon excavate Mt. Coronet as examples of similar Team Galactic episodes that got excellent reception. That's to say nothing of Pokémon Hunter J, whose appearance in the dull Shieldon episode set up a subplot that was never revisited and was shoehorned redundantly into the Riolu special even though it already had antagonists.

[AgentPierce]

Thanks, Great Butler. I'm totally done arguing about this: I have better things to do than argue my opinion with those who accuse me of forcing it on them and trying to take away their right to theirs. And if I came across as such, than I'm truly sorry.

Though on Hunter J: I agree about the Shieldon episode, but the "other antagonists" in the Rilou two-parter were her employers, right? She's a pokemon bounty hunter who works under hire for money, so it makes sense that she was there. It didn't feel shoe-horned in to me. Plus, she was just so awesome in those episodes that I could forgive it anyway.

[The Great Butler]

Though on Hunter J: I agree about the Shieldon episode, but the "other antagonists" in the Rilou two-parter were her employers, right? She's a pokemon bounty hunter who works under hire for money, so it makes sense that she was there. It didn't feel shoe-horned in to me. Plus, she was just so awesome in those episodes that I could forgive it anyway.

Those guys were set up as a mini-evil-team themselves, and they had the capability to find Riolu in that laboratory and kidnap it, so they really should have had the ability to hunt it themselves. I'm not disagreeing with you on J being a complete badass in that special (as she always was) but her role felt like it was muscling out the guys initially presented as the special's antagonists, and after she delivered Riolu to them and left, the rest of it was an anticlimax.

It's too bad she was dead before the Heatran special, because if that had gotten a Part 2 (through excising the horrifically bad Meowth/Glameow filler?) and had an actual antagonist, it would have been far better.

My main ire with the Shieldon episode is that it presented that doctor guy who was J's client as some kind of mysterious evil force, and then he never showed up again.

[AgentPierce]

Those guys were set up as a mini-evil-team themselves, and they had the capability to find Riolu in that laboratory and kidnap it, so they really should have had the ability to hunt it themselves. I'm not disagreeing with you on J being a complete badass in that special (as she always was) but her role felt like it was muscling out the guys initially presented as the special's antagonists, and after she delivered Riolu to them and left, the rest of it was an anticlimax.

If you want to get technical, the same could be said for Team Galactic. In literally all other mediums, when they captured the Lake Pokemon, they did it themselves. While it made sense for the anime staff to use J for that, in some ways it makes Team Galactic seem less competent and threatening than they were supposed to be.

It's too bad she was dead before the Heatran special, because if that had gotten a Part 2 (through excising the horrifically bad Meowth/Glameow filler?) and had an actual antagonist, it would have been far better.

I thought everyone was in agreement that Charon should have been the antagonist there.

My main ire with the Shieldon episode is that it presented that doctor guy who was J's client as some kind of mysterious evil force, and then he never showed up again.

That's what I thought you meant. The guy (who looked a bit like Professor Rowan's evil twin, BTW) was presented in the same way Giovanni was when he first appeared in the show, and yet he's never seen again and supposedly was never meant to be important at all. Then why bother making him out to seem so mysterious???