1. PO crashed again and again

2. Ok guys, battle time for Round 2 of the World Cup is underway! Get those battles done!

3. Originally Posted by Prohawk
This is mainly for Ninja Dewott and Zachmac. Take your Serene Grace argument and throw it off a cliff

Spoiler:- zzz:

This Jirachi was at 2% health too. Literally any hit would have killed it
Okay, so if I swept a team with astonish Zubat through hax, it'd be banned?

The odds of that are terrible. That was just rotten luck. I mean, it's like saying Charizard should be banned because a pokemon's stone edge missed it five times in a row.

Let's do the math. It's been a while since I've worked with chances of something occuring, but if I remember correctly... There were 6 flinches. Each of them had a 60% chance of occurring.
0.6^6
That means that the odds of making a pokemon flinch 6 times in a row is a 4.6656% chance. That's less then five.

And for my final nitpick...pokemon don't die. I'm tired of everyone saying that.
Last edited by Zachmac; 18th November 2012 at 11:52 PM.

4. Originally Posted by Zachmac
Let's do the math. It's been a while since I've worked with chances of something occuring, but if I remember correctly... There were 6 flinches. Each of them had a 60% chance of occurring.
0.6^6
That means that the odds of making a pokemon flinch 6 times in a row is a 4.6656% chance. That's less then five.
Ah, but you see, the flinches' 60% chance were all separate occurences. Instead of calculating them all into that 5% chance, they should be counted as 6 different 60% chances.

And for my final nitpick...pokemon don't die. I'm tired of everyone saying that.
NUZLOCKE, DO YOU SPEAK IT.

5. Ah, but you see, the flinches' 60% chance were all separate occurences. Instead of calculating them all into that 5% chance, they should be counted as 6 different 60% chances.
Gah, I have poor memory for this stuff, even if it's easy when I do remember it...

...But if it makes a difference - and I'm pretty sure it was - I was not just calculating the chance to flinch 6 times. I was calculating the chance of Rotom flinching 6 times in a row.

Hold on a moment, I need to think about it...I figure out all sorts of formulas before my teacher is done explaining...

6. Originally Posted by Zachmac
Okay, so if I swept a team with astonish Zubat through hax, it'd be banned?

The odds of that are terrible. That was just rotten luck. I mean, it's like saying Charizard should be banned because a pokemon's stone edge missed it five times in a row.

Let's do the math. It's been a while since I've worked with chances of something occuring, but if I remember correctly... There were 6 flinches. Each of them had a 60% chance of occurring.
0.6^6
That means that the odds of making a pokemon flinch 6 times in a row is a 4.6656% chance. That's less then five.

And for my final nitpick...pokemon don't die. I'm tired of everyone saying that.
You always have take a barely related comparison and apply it to the situation. If Astonish had 80 Base Power, a 60% Flinch rate, an abuser that got STAB on it and an amazing typing and BST, not to mention spread, and nothing immune to it, then yes, I would say it's broken.

There is no legit way to argue that the combination of 30% flinch moves & Serene Grace is healthy for the meta

Sure, the way you work it out makes it look bad, but that honestly is high school math. If you do any University Stats paper, you will learn that each event is mutually exclusive, meaning that they are treated separately. For example, if you flip a coin 6 times, you would expect to get 3 heads and 3 tails, but really, you can get 6 heads and 0 tails and it's still a fair trial because EACH FLIP OF THE COIN IS A SEPARATE EVENT.

Maybe it is rotten luck, but this happens every day to people on PO. Plus we all know percentages mean nothing on PO. I've missed 3 Draco Meteors in a row before, while my opp can land 8 Hydro Pumps in a row. I feel more confident that Iron Head Rachi will Flinch me (60%) then Focus Blast hitting anything (70%).

Originally Posted by Psychic Swordsman
Ah, but you see, the flinches' 60% chance were all separate occurences. Instead of calculating them all into that 5% chance, they should be counted as 6 different 60% chances.

NUZLOCKE, DO YOU SPEAK IT.
I'm glad somebody reads my posts. You even ninja'd my Nuzlocke comment lol

7. Originally Posted by Prohawk
Sure, the way you work it out makes it look bad, but that honestly is high school math. If you do any University Stats paper, you will learn that each event is mutually exclusive, meaning that they are treated separately. For example, if you flip a coin 6 times, you would expect to get 3 heads and 3 tails, but really, you can get 6 heads and 0 tails and it's still a fair trial because EACH FLIP OF THE COIN IS A SEPARATE EVENT.
Yes, I know. I'm not at a University yet, but this has always been pretty obvious to me.

Well, then, for a truly balanced metagame, why don't we only use moves with 100% accuracy, and remove critical hits from PO once and for all? Oh, but then we should make secondary status effects none existent.
Maybe it is rotten luck, but this happens every day to people on PO. Plus we all know percentages mean nothing on PO. I've missed 3 Draco Meteors in a row before, while my opp can land 8 Hydro Pumps in a row. I feel more confident that Iron Head Rachi will Flinch me (60%) then Focus Blast hitting anything (70%).
Well then, yet again, why don't we ban all the hax, then? It happens to people all the time, but I have a theory that people just remember their bad luck better then their good luck, since good luck isn't frustrating at all.
NUZLOCKE, DO YOU SPEAK IT.
That's besides my point...

I'd support team plasma if everything was the way Nuzlocke put it, then.

But most importantly, I think I should state that the of Jirachi's counter losing due to flinch hax isn't really different from a Volcarona having it's sweep ruined buy a t-wave Ferrothorn because Fire Blast missed.
Last edited by Zachmac; 19th November 2012 at 12:54 AM.

8. Originally Posted by Zachmac
Well, then, for a truly balanced metagame, why don't we only use moves with 100% accuracy, and remove critical hits from PO once and for all? Oh, but then we should make secondary status effects none existent.
Well then, yet again, why don't we ban all the hax, then? It happens to people all the time, but I have a theory that people just remember their bad luck better then their good luck, since good luck isn't frustrating at all.That's besides my point...

But most importantly, I think I should state that the of Jirachi's counter losing due to flinch hax isn't really different from a ScarfMoxieMence or something making it passed a scarf Terrakion's stone edge or beating a swapping in steel type because it got two crits in a row. Yes, it happens, but does that mean ScarfMoxieMence should be banned?
Again, there you go, going to an extreme. If you really want to present a solid case, please just tell me why Iron Head + Serence Grace on Rachi is healthy for the metagame. I've used Scarf Rachi before, and I've forfeited after Flinch Haxxing entire teams because it's a BS tactic. I'm not saying that this only happens to me, this is bad luck against anyone that comes up against Scarf Rachi. I am also speaking specifically against Rachi here. Togekiss and Shaymin are the only other 2 pokes that can really abuse a 30% flinch move with Serene Grace. Both of them take neutral hits from Bullet Punch, Mach Punch and Extreme Speed. They're both weak to Ice Shard too. Rachi resists every one of those moves bar Mach Punch, which will never OHKO it without boosts.

By the way, if I miss a Hydro Pump, I accept it since I know it's not a 100% move and I'm going to miss it every now and then. Even when Ice Beam freezes me, I accept it because it's a pretty rare occurrence, an annoying one, but pretty rare and I was probably due for that 10% chance to kick in anyway. But when I get Flinched Haxxed to death, even when my poke is bulky, resists the move and can easily take out the Rachi with literally any move, I call BS

9. Originally Posted by Zachmac
But most importantly, I think I should state that the of Jirachi's counter losing due to flinch hax isn't really different from a Volcarona having it's sweep ruined buy a t-wave Ferrothorn because Fire Blast missed.
If you are using Fire blast and miss, who is to blame for your loss? You are - you chose to rely on a low accuracy move.

If the opponent is using jirachi and flinch you 6 times what is the blame of your loss? Broken Jirachi that relies on hax.

10. Originally Posted by Tormented
If you are using Fire blast and miss, who is to blame for your loss? You are - you chose to rely on a low accuracy move.

If the opponent is using jirachi and flinch you 6 times what is the blame of your loss? Broken Jirachi that relies on hax.
Well, perhaps that was a poor example. I just listed that since Fire Blast is the standard move for Hydreigon.

Yes, I guess the hax with Jirachi is enemy induced, but samething with random freezing, burning, paralyzing, and other things. I can't count how many times I've lost because of those.

Jirachi can beat it's counters through flinch hax, even once with x4 resist like Rotom-W and Magnezone, but almost all sweepers can win through a crit or an enemy's move missing. Almost every time, Rotom-W, or any of Jirachi's other counters, will be able to do something against a Jirachi locked into iron head. It's just that sometimes hax just plays in Jirachi's favor every now and then.
Again, there you go, going to an extreme. If you really want to present a solid case, please just tell me why Iron Head + Serence Grace on Rachi is healthy for the metagame. I've used Scarf Rachi before, and I've forfeited after Flinch Haxxing entire teams because it's a BS tactic. I'm not saying that this only happens to me, this is bad luck against anyone that comes up against Scarf Rachi. I am also speaking specifically against Rachi here. Togekiss and Shaymin are the only other 2 pokes that can really abuse a 30% flinch move with Serene Grace. Both of them take neutral hits from Bullet Punch, Mach Punch and Extreme Speed. They're both weak to Ice Shard too. Rachi resists every one of those moves bar Mach Punch, which will never OHKO it without boosts.

By the way, if I miss a Hydro Pump, I accept it since I know it's not a 100% move and I'm going to miss it every now and then. Even when Ice Beam freezes me, I accept it because it's a pretty rare occurrence, an annoying one, but pretty rare and I was probably due for that 10% chance to kick in anyway. But when I get Flinched Haxxed to death, even when my poke is bulky, resists the move and can easily take out the Rachi with literally any move, I call BS
I can't really argue with this, but I suppose that's because I got carried away and dragged this away from the point I was trying to make.

But I'm not trying to argue that it's healthy, I'm just arguing that it's not all that unhealthy either.
Last edited by Zachmac; 19th November 2012 at 1:28 AM.

11. Originally Posted by Zachmac
Well, perhaps that was a poor example. I just listed that since Fire Blast is the standard move for Hydreigon.
You were talking about Volc though O.o as far as I know, the standard fire stab for volc is Fiery Dance

Yes, I guess the hax with Jirachi is enemy induced, but samething with random freezing, burning, paralyzing, and other things. I can't count how many times I've lost because of those.
Yes sometimes I get para haxxed for 4 turns in a row. If I'm unlucky, it happens once a week. Sometimes I get Flinch Haxxed to death by Rachi, if I'm unlucky, it's every time I see a Scarfed Rachi. In fact, if I'm lucky I'll finally get off my attack and it'll miss anyway (although that's besides the point) but do you see the difference??

Jirachi can beat it's counters through flinch hax, even once with x4 resist like Rotom-W and Magnezone, but almost all sweepers can win through a crit or an enemy's move missing. Almost every time, Rotom-W, or any of Jirachi's other counters, will be able to do something against a Jirachi locked into iron head. It's just that sometimes hax just plays in Jirachi's favor every now and then.I can't really argue with this, but I suppose that's because I got carried away and dragged this away from the point I was trying to make.
When you say sweeper, I think of something that has to have its counters removed as it's usually weak to something (Mence weak to Ice shard, Terrakion weak to Bullet Punch, Gene weak to Heatran, etc etc) thus needing some skill to use. I remember you (or Ninja Dewott, I forget) brought up something about Mag2Drag being stupid as a reponse to my last Rachi rant. Have you actually used Mag2Drag?? It's certainly not as easy as it looks. Chucking a Scarf on a Rachi is a different bucket of fish. Send it out on anything and troll away with the Iron Head button, hell I've seen Scarf Rachi flinch a non-scarfed Rachi to death. It was mainly Hail damage wearing it down, but when it couldn't ever get off the wish it needed, well not much it could do really.

I'll return to my main point as to not go too far off topic; please just tell me why Iron Head + Serence Grace on Rachi is healthy for the metagame.

12. You were talking about Volc though O.o as far as I know, the standard fire stab for volc is Fiery Dance
Bah, I was shuffling ideas through my head. I probably rote Volc down by mistake.
Yes sometimes I get para haxxed for 4 turns in a row. If I'm unlucky, it happens once a week. Sometimes I get Flinch Haxxed to death by Rachi, if I'm unlucky, it's every time I see a Scarfed Rachi. In fact, if I'm lucky I'll finally get off my attack and it'll miss anyway (although that's besides the point) but do you see the difference??
Funny, I've never been swept by a scarf Rachi once.

I've been beaten by Jirachi alone few times, but it wasn't scarfed any one of those times. I guess that's why we've got such different views on it, huh?
I'll return to my main point as to not go too far off topic; please just tell me why Iron Head + Serence Grace on Rachi is healthy for the metagame.
Define healthy. Helpful to the balance? Not ruining the balance? Or both?
Last edited by Zachmac; 19th November 2012 at 1:50 AM.

13. could one of you guys link me to the old carbon monixide core? i'm gonna do some experimenting/tweaking.

14. Originally Posted by Ghosts of the Forums
could one of you guys link me to the old carbon monixide core? i'm gonna do some experimenting/tweaking.
Spoiler:- Core:

I'd honestly prefer if you want an old core for you to vm me as Soper said these posts are getting very spammy for us and we dont need ragnarok breathing down our backs but lets have a discussion in today's metagame which do you view as better defensively Gliscor or Landorus Therian?

15. Originally Posted by Psychic Swordsman
Ah, but you see, the flinches' 60% chance were all separate occurences. Instead of calculating them all into that 5% chance, they should be counted as 6 different 60% chances.
But the chances of it happening six times in a row is wildly different. That's what he was trying to calculate.
...And that math makes my brain hurt, so I won't do it. But you get the point (hopefully)

And we've been over this before. Twice at least. Both times, it ended weirdly.
Originally Posted by Zachmac
I've been beaten by Jirachi alone few times, but it wasn't scarfed any one of those times. I guess that's why we've got such different views on it, huh?Define healthy. Helpful to the balance? Not ruining the balance? Or both?
Looking at it from Prohawk's view, unhealthy in the sense that at some point excadrill and Terrakion were unhealthy. It makes the game extremely frustrating for the losing team, and it requires absolutely no thought, thus leading to even bad players getting high up in the ladder based on a stupid tactic. The whole point of the ladder is to prevent that kind of thing, to have only those who truly understand the metagame and how to deal with it rank highly.

Originally Posted by Usatoday
Spoiler:- Core:

I'd honestly prefer if you want an old core for you to vm me as Soper said these posts are getting very spammy for us and we dont need ragnarok breathing down our backs but lets have a discussion in today's metagame which do you view as better defensively Gliscor or Landorus Therian?
I think I have that core in the main Citrine post.
Anyway, as to Gliscor and Landorus-T, I honestly think it depends on what you want. Gliscor works better for stalling imo, as he doesn't have to rely on an ability that works once to survive. he has Poison Heal to stay alive and the natural stats to continue. If you want a quick wall who can possibly pull off a sweep, Landorus-T is your guy. He has superior stats offensively, but only really has one extra turn with Intimidate to act as a wall.
Last edited by Soperman; 19th November 2012 at 2:52 AM.

16. i've always been partial to gliscor. he's better for walling, but can also pull off a psuedo sweep, as he has options like sd and fling + acrobatics with a toxic orb.

17. Originally Posted by Ghosts of the Forums
i've always been partial to gliscor. he's better for walling, but can also pull off a psuedo sweep, as he has options like sd and fling + acrobatics with a toxic orb.
i find landorus-t superior. it just suits the current metagame so much better, imo. its able to set-up on so many things and with rock polish, makes a great check to genesect, which is better than what most things can say. i believe it ohkoes with rocks up....

18. ok man. i just like gliscor.

19. Originally Posted by Zachmac
I've been beaten by Jirachi alone few times, but it wasn't scarfed any one of those times. I guess that's why we've got such different views on it, huh?Define healthy. Helpful to the balance? Not ruining the balance? Or both?
I've been beaten by non-scarf Rachi before, no qualms there. Even the Body Slam + Para Flinch set I find is manageable since pokes can outspeed it and sub/ko it easily, usually Landy or Offensive Gliscor. I find that Calm Mind Rachi with Thunder and Water Pulse is vital for Rain teams, in order to stop Lati@s ripping them apart. Jirachi does have a well deserved place in the Meta, but Scarf Rachi Iron Head spam needs to bugger off.

By healthy, I mean is it in the spirit of Competitiveness. Like I can understand Sand Veil/Snow Cloak being banned, because that 1 miss can make the difference between winning and losing, thus it is deemed to be anti competitive. It's reducing the Luck:Skill ratio. I understand that pokemon will always have a portion of luck involved (85% acc moves, 10% freeze chance, crits etc) but what is essentially a lucky hit, should not be abusable, which is exactly what Scrachi Iron Head is

20. Gliscor get poison heal, which gives it a boost for stalling/walling/whatever it does (idk). Intimidate makes Landorus-T better defensively because of zapped attack, but honestly, I feel like there are more special / mixed attackers in general.

21. Been unexpectedly internetless for the last 5 days, apologies to sparkbeat about the WC

Opp's name: Sparkbeat
Opp's house: Emerald
Score: win 2-0
Any comments?: Very similar teams and a close game, ggwp

(game totally unrelated to the WC)

22. Originally Posted by gigaboost
Been unexpectedly internetless for the last 5 days, apologies to sparkbeat about the WC

Opp's name: Sparkbeat
Opp's house: Emerald
Score: win 2-0
Any comments?: Very similar teams and a close game, ggwp

(game totally unrelated to the WC)
Yeah, gg.
Also, if you could choose one pokemon to make ubers, what would it be? I'd choose genesect because nowadays you have to include a counter for it it every team. Either him or Magikarp because science.

23. Originally Posted by Zachmac
Okay, so if I swept a team with astonish Zubat through hax, it'd be banned?

The odds of that are terrible. That was just rotten luck. I mean, it's like saying Charizard should be banned because a pokemon's stone edge missed it five times in a row.

Let's do the math. It's been a while since I've worked with chances of something occuring, but if I remember correctly... There were 6 flinches. Each of them had a 60% chance of occurring.
0.6^6
That means that the odds of making a pokemon flinch 6 times in a row is a 4.6656% chance. That's less then five.

And for my final nitpick...pokemon don't die. I'm tired of everyone saying that.
This maths is clearly masking the issue, so I will try to simplify it. With iron head, you have a chance to flinch 60% of the time. Hence, 60% of the time Rachi has the equivalent of a 240 base power move after stab (with max investment in rachi, equivalent to a latias's draco meteor without the drop). 40% of the time, it is the normal 120 base power after stab. Hence on average, iron head is equivalent to 192 bp after stab with perfect accuracy every turn - and no move comes near that base power without having some drawback - the closest is STAB EQ with 42 BP less, and so many OU threats are immune to it. Coupled with rachi's ridiculous typing and movepool, scrachi with a sustainable 128 base power move is indefensible in the metagame.
Last edited by gigaboost; 19th November 2012 at 7:00 AM.

24. Originally Posted by Sparkbeat
Yeah, gg.
Also, if you could choose one pokemon to make ubers, what would it be? I'd choose genesect because nowadays you have to include a counter for it it every team. Either him or Magikarp because science.

25. Originally Posted by Sparkbeat
I'd choose genesect because nowadays you have to include a counter for it it every team.
You have to have a check or counter for every common, offensive OU threat, or else you'll simply be crushed.

The question is how many viable options are there to check or counter Genesect.

Also, I brought up Jirachi here. I'll just argue about it there, since I felt the discussion was really making the thread feel more heated then it really should.
Last edited by Zachmac; 19th November 2012 at 7:45 AM.

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